Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 14 May 2014

Vol. 841 No. 2

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 4, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014 - Second Stage (resumed); and No. 10 - motion re establishment of joint committee of inquiry into the banking crisis.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings in relation to No. 10 shall be taken at 4 p.m. today and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after two hours and five minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of the Taoiseach, the Tánaiste and of the leaders of Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, or a person nominated in their stead, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case, and such Members may share their time,

and the speech of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin, the Technical Group, a representative of others and Deputy Ciarán Lynch, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed ten minutes in each case, and such Members may share their time. Private Members’ business shall be No. 146, motion re discretionary medical cards (resumed), to conclude at 9 p.m., if not previously concluded.

Tomorrow’s business after Oral Questions shall be No. 4, Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill 2014 - Second Stage (resumed).

An Ceann Comhairle

There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 10 agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Under the programme for Government the Taoiseach has committed to significant reform of the committee system, in particular that the head of any Department or State body would make himself or herself available to committees. I am concerned that the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality wrote to the clerk of the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality to say that he would attend the committee but would not answer any question on the departure of the former Garda Commissioner. I put it to the Taoiseach that the response flies in the face of the commitment in the programme for Government on the first page of the political reform section to the effect that the chief executive of every State body, agency and Department should go before committees and answer the questions they would be ordinarily asked.

It is fair to say that the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality has specific questions to ask on the circumstances surrounding the departure of the former Garda Commissioner and should be allowed to ask them and the Secretary General should answer them. Will the Taoiseach indicate whether the Secretary General's position is in conformity with the programme for Government and whether he will intervene to ensure the committee is allowed to do its work? Could the Taoiseach also indicate when the universal primary care Act will be introduced?

The Taoiseach

In respect of the first question, I note that the Secretary General is attending the committee tomorrow to deal with the issues arising from the Guerin report. Deputy Martin is well aware that because of other matters, a commission of investigation has been set up and an appointment has been made of a Supreme Court judge to deal with a range of matters which include the subject of the first question asked by the Deputy. The sole member has absolute discretion in the work and responsibility he has undertaken. The Secretary General's letter makes that clear. His intention in attending the committee is in accordance with his responsibility as Secretary General. A commission of investigation has been set up for a specific purpose and is running after two weeks. It is an exceptional measure and is not referred to in the programme for Government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Secretary General should not be precluded from answering questions.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin asked me about the White Paper. The consultation process is now beginning on the White Paper. It will focus on the range of services-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I asked about universal primary care.

The Taoiseach

I will have to come back to the Deputy on the matter which is the responsibility of the Minister of State, Deputy Alex White.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I have two questions, one of which concerns the Government's timetable for its response to the Guerin report. The Taoiseach should have made it clear that the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality will be allowed to do its work. I am disappointed he did not do that in terms of the appearance by the Secretary General of the Department of Justice and Equality. When does the Taoiseach expect to publish the terms of reference for the commission of investigation into those issues identified in the report by Seán Guerin SC? When will the Government bring forward the new legislation to strengthen the operation of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission? When will the Oireachtas have sight of the Government's proposal for an independent Garda authority which is to be up and running by the end of the year? When can we expect details on the process of recruitment by open competition for the new Garda Commissioner.

I also have a question ar ábhar eile. When does the Taoiseach expect the White Paper on energy will be published, following the publication on Monday of the energy policy Green Paper? The Taoiseach might have noted that the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, has raised the possibility of the State building a fourth generation nuclear reactor. Is the Government seriously proposing to build a nuclear reactor?

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Biomass.

The Taoiseach

No.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Go raibh maith agat.

The Taoiseach

This is a Green Paper which allows everybody to have their say. As Deputy Adams is aware, there is a legal ban-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach is saying "No" first.

The Taoiseach

-----in Ireland on building nuclear reactors.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach is saying "No" in advance of everybody having their say.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He is giving the answer first.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That sums up how the Taoiseach does things.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Biomass Pat. He is full of it.

The Taoiseach

While the Deputy might like me to say otherwise, the Minister has no intention-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is a second slap for the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, in two days.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Biomass Pat.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He should get back into his burrow.

The Taoiseach

-----of lifting the ban on the building of nuclear reactors in this country.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

He is full of it.

The Taoiseach

As part of the Green Paper on energy process-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I think it is because of the-----

The Taoiseach

-----everybody and anybody are perfectly entitled to have their say.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

But the Taoiseach has made up his mind on it.

The Taoiseach

All of the observations that are made will be considered.

Deputy Micheál Martin

So the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, is going off the rails.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Nuclear Pat.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is election talk.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy can examine the Green Paper to understand it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Press the nuclear button.

The Taoiseach

I hope we can come back to the House before the summer recess with proposals on the structure of an independent statutory Garda authority. It is a tight timeline to get it done before the end of the year but I hope we will have the observations and reflections of Members of the House before the House rises for the summer recess.

There will be a two hour debate tomorrow on the Guerin report, which will continue the week after next. Deputy Adams mentioned a number of other issues.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I inquired about new legislation to strengthen the operation of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, the Government's proposals for an independent Garda authority and details on the process of recruitment. I asked the Taoiseach about the terms of reference for the commission and he talked about the structure of it. They are two different issues.

The Taoiseach

The process is beginning in respect of the recruitment of the new Garda Commissioner. It will be a national and international open competition. How best to structure that will be devised by the Minister for Justice and Equality and her officials.

The intention is that we hope to have the process concluded and the a Commissioner appointed in or around the same time as the independent statutory authority is put in place. We must consider as part of the Government decision yesterday the amendments that are necessary to strengthen the Office of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. One particular section needs to be looked at and it is possible there will be amendments to other sections. We will consider that. The process is starting for all three. I have given indicative timelines to which I hope we can stick.

Deputy Gerry Adams

What about the terms of reference of the commission of investigation?

The Taoiseach

We need to consider what the commission of investigation needs to look at arising from the Guerin report. I am also discussing with the Minister for Justice and Equality how one deals with all the cases of a historical nature that are coming to light, some going back many years, that are outside the remit of the Guerin report. I am also considering whether we should wait and reflect upon the report by Mr. Justice Cooke in respect of GSOC and have both reports considered together. I do not wish to define terms of reference for the Guerin report until I see what the Minister for Justice and Equality recommends arising from the Guerin report itself, issues of a historical nature that are emerging from many sources and the conclusions of the Cooke report.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I wish to correct the record in terms of something the Taoiseach said. The Secretary General will not come before the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality tomorrow. It will be next week at the very earliest.

The Taoiseach

My apologies.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I also wish to refer to the commentary of the Taoiseach on the letter from the Secretary General. Quite farcically, the Secretary General states he does not wish to impede the work of the Fennelly commission-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry to interrupt the Deputy but that is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Taoiseach should hear the information because it is clear he is not getting the information.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mac Lochlainn can talk to him privately.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

There will be a commission of investigation into the Guerin report, yet the Secretary General will come before us to discuss the matter. He will also discuss the handling of correspondence which is being dealt with by the Fennelly commission but he does not wish to talk about the reason the Garda Commissioner resigned or was sacked.

It is outrageous and he needs to-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy have another question?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Will the Taoiseach address it to make sure that he deals with all the issues?

An Ceann Comhairle

He cannot do so on the Order of Business.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

In terms of the issue of the Department of Justice and Equality, the panel of experts will examine the running of the Department and the reason the new Minister will not express confidence in the Secretary General until the review is completed. There is correspondence from Ian Bailey and his solicitors to the Taoiseach and it has cost the taxpayers €40 million to €50 million over 18 years.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows this is not in order on the Order of Business.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Department of Justice and Equality has serious questions-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to please resume his seat.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

-----on how it handled this affair over the past 18 years. Will the Taoiseach deal with this correspondence?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please resume his seat?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

A total of €40 million to €50 million has been spent over 18 years, managed by the Department of Justice and Equality which is still defending a civil case in the courts with regard to Ian Bailey and Jules Thomas. Will the Taoiseach deal with this issue as part of the review?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, he will not deal with it on the Order of Business. It is as simple as that.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Will the Taoiseach correspond with me?

An Ceann Comhairle

We have to have some order in the House-----

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

Will the Taoiseach come back to me on these points?

An Ceann Comhairle

-----and when I stand up I expect every Deputy to adhere to the Chair.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

With regard to the Green Paper, White Paper or black paper which the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, cannot see through with regard to the EirGrid Bill, a total of 35,000 people made submissions on their views. Why must the Minister have a commission and a White or Green Paper to cod the people further? I want an answer on this. It is a pity the Minister has gone.

The Taoiseach

The EirGrid Bill will be next year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is next year every time I ask. It was next year last year.

An Ceann Comhairle

Next year is still next year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The fat lady has not sung but the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte, has left the Chamber.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

That is a disgraceful comment.

The Taoiseach

The Bill will be next year in 2015.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Sorry?

The Taoiseach

2015 is next year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I know that, but it was 2013 first then 2014 and now 2015. Will the Government be around to do it?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, is very offended.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He is.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Will Deputy Mattie McGrath be around?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Please God.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

It was a disgraceful comment.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach is a múinteoir scoile himself, and throughout the country national schools are being persecuted and frightened out of existence.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have me worn out before he is finished. I have to do this everyday.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Gabh mo leithscéal.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have to do this everyday. The Deputy will have me worn out.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am asking about two points. One is the EirGrid Bill and the other is about the education (admission to school) Bill. It is promised legislation. The Ceann Comhairle has given me a Topical Issues matter to raise and I am very thankful for it so I will mind myself today. When will the education (admission to school) Bill be implemented?

The Taoiseach

This session.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is all a big session as far as the Taoiseach is concerned but nothing is happening.

The Taoiseach

Is it that the Deputy means it is a big session?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is what the Taoiseach thinks.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

An insurance Bill is proposed to provide for the continuing regulation and supervision of the insurance industry and reinsurance having regard to past experience in this area. Is it intended to bring the Bill to the House, has it been discussed in Cabinet and when is it likely to come before the House? In respect of the Seanad electoral (university members) (amendment) Bill, which is important legislation to extend and implement the 1979 amendment to the Constitution on the Seanad university franchise, what is the present location of this particular legislation? When is it likely to be finalised?

The Taoiseach

The insurance Bill has not come before the Government and therefore the heads have not been discussed. It is not due for this year. It will probably be early next year. The Seanad Bill was referred to the Seanad for its assessment and I have not heard back from it yet.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

When does the Taoiseach expects to have the Cooke report? Once having received it, when does he propose to publish it?

Now that we have a new Minister for Justice and Equality I hope she and the Government will be more sympathetic and decent in respect of the case of the survivors of the Bethany Home. I have raised this issue many times on the floor of the Dáil. I hope today the Taoiseach will commit on his behalf and on behalf of the Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, to revisit this case and do the decent thing for the survivors.

The Taoiseach

I have no contact with Mr. Justice Cooke and I have no idea when he will submit the report.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Is it not imminent?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is imminent according to the Minister, Deputy Quinn.

The Taoiseach

I have had no contact with Mr. Justice Cooke and I cannot confirm it. A timeline was set for it but it is entirely a matter for Mr. Justice Cooke.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

So it is not imminent.

The Taoiseach

I hear reports that it is imminent-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, said it would be next week.

The Taoiseach

-----but I have no contact myself with him and therefore I cannot confirm it.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

It was imminent last Thursday.

The Taoiseach

I cannot confirm the date in answer to the Deputy's question. I will pass on her comments in respect of the Bethany Home to the Minister for Justice and Equality. The matter was not approved on a number of occasions in recent years.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I am aware of that.

The Taoiseach

I do not accept the Deputy's comment that the Government is neither sympathetic nor decent in respect of the work it does here. As pointed out with regard to the Magdalen laundries, Priory Hall and many other sensitive serious issues the Government has been sympathetic and decent.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Government has been utterly indecent to these survivors. It has been callous and heartless and the Taoiseach clearly intends to continue in this vein. It is a disgrace.

Deputy Brian Stanley

My question is on the Wind Turbine Regulation Bill 2014. The Government promised to bring forward guidelines on wind farms. With regard to setback distances the Minister is committed to including 500 meters regardless of the height-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot deal with this aspect of the Bill.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Will the Taoiseach address this and ensure the setback distance is pro rata to the height?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy can raise this through a parliamentary question.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Will the Taoiseach give a commitment this morning on the Bill? I know it cannot be discussed on Committee Stage prior to the local elections, but will the Taoiseach give a commitment to allow Sinn Féin's Wind Turbine Regulation Bill 2014 to be discussed on Committee Stage after the elections so his party people and our party people, who are being asked about it on the doorstops throughout the midlands, can give some clarity to the people affected? We need this commitment this morning to allow the Bill go to Committee Stage.

The Taoiseach

I cannot give the Deputy this commitment. All of these guidelines are for public consultation and complete review so I cannot give the commitment. I am sorry.

Deputy Brian Stanley

How long is the consultation? The Government is dragging it out until after the local elections.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

I wish to raise an issue with regard to the programme for Government relating to a commitment that hospitals would be paid according to their care path of delivery and would have an incentivised scheme to ensure resources follow the patient. With respect to the health reform Bill, will the Taoiseach comment on its publication date in light of the publication yesterday afternoon of a high-level review of maternity services in the HSE north west-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We had this on Question Time.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

-----which earmarked the closure of the number of maternity units particularly with respect to Portiuncula and Ballinasloe, which is provided for in the seventh scenario?

An Ceann Comhairle

No, Deputy, please resume your seat.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Ceann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

No, you will not deal with individual cases.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

The Ceann Comhairle is to facilitate debate and not to censor it. This is a critical-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We had an hour and a quarter for Question Time this morning on health issues, including this matter, with the Minister present.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

I have submitted this as a Topical Issues matter and the Ceann Comhairle has consistently rejected it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is not doing himself any favours by being smart.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Nor yourself because you are supposed to facilitate debate, not censor it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, resume your seat. I take great exception to your comments. You will be treated like every other Deputy in the House. You have no special place.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

I would be delighted if I was.

The Taoiseach

It is a complex Bill. It is listed for later this session but I cannot confirm it will actually make it through. I do not accept the Deputy's comments about the closure of maternity services. There was a meeting in Portiuncula-----

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not in order in the Order of Business.

The Taoiseach

There was a meeting on Friday last and it was made clear there are no planned closures. I have been listening to rumours and allegations which are entirely baseless for the past two days.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They are not rumours. They are in the report.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Nonsense.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

Look at "Professor Nonsense".

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Keaveney was at Question Time this morning and this matter was dealt with.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Rubbish.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

You are "Professor Rubbish".

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Electioneering.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Will the Taoiseach formally correct the record in respect of what he said earlier about Mr. Brian Purcell and clarify that there is no firm commitment for a specific date for him to come before the Joint Committee on Justice, Defence and Equality?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not in order on the Order of Business and the Deputy knows this.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I want to also ask the Taoiseach if he will correct the record on the issue on which Mr. Purcell was asked to come before the committee, which concerns the resignation of the former Garda Commissioner.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to please resume her seat. This is not in order.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Taoiseach knows Mr. Purcell cannot divulge a private conversation between them on the night in question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please resume her seat?

Deputy Róisín Shortall

I am asking the Taoiseach if he will agree to lift-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I am asking the Deputy to resume her seat.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----the confidentiality in respect of that conversation so people can find out-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----from Mr. Purcell why it was-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Switch off that microphone please.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----that the Taoiseach sent him out-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall, resume your seat.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----to Mr. Callinan. Will the Taoiseach lift that requirement for confidentiality-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I will ask Deputy Shortall to leave the House if she is not careful.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----or will he attend the committee and explain what went on that night?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall, please leave the House.

I do not want any comments on this. The Deputies who consistently ignore the Chair show grave disrespect to the House. It is not me personally; it is the House and the rest of the Members.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Taoiseach should correct the record.

An Ceann Comhairle

Moreover, when you are asked to resume your seat, please do so-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Taoiseach misled the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----and raise issues in accordance with the rules of the House.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Taoiseach should correct the record. He is the person who can provide-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. That concludes the Order of Business for today. The Dáil will suspend for one hour.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

-----information on what happened that night.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Will the Taoiseach lift the confidentiality requirement on Mr. Purcell?

The Taoiseach

As the Deputy knows well, this is the subject of a commission of investigation by a Supreme Court judge.

An Ceann Comhairle

My apologies, there also is the First Stage of a Private Members' Bill. I call on Deputy Adams-----

The Taoiseach

The Deputy should be ashamed of herself.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Taoiseach should be honest and should not put loyalty before the truth.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shortall, would you please stay quiet and behave yourself?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach is goading her.

An Ceann Comhairle

And you too, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

With respect, the Taoiseach said she should be ashamed of herself. The Taoiseach should explain why she should be ashamed of herself.

The Taoiseach

There is a commission of investigation.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy does not need to come in to defend anybody. She is well able to do it herself. I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Why should Deputy Shortall be ashamed of saying what she said?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Adams.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Why should she be ashamed to say what she did?

An Ceann Comhairle

The reason is because she was out of order.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I was talking to the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin, please stay quiet. I call Deputy Adams.