Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 May 2014

Vol. 842 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Building Regulations Qualifications

Deputy Mick Wallace

As the Minister will be aware, I have some serious reservations about the new regulations introduced in March this year. Before I deal with the issue of architectural technologists, however, I want to say that I still believe the Government is missing the point and that independent supervision by people working for the State is the best way forward. I still insist that it cannot possibly work to have members of the Royal Institute of Architects in Ireland, RIAI, signing off on projects unless they have somebody present on the site. At the moment, those allowed to practise as assigned certifiers are persons registered with the RIAI, chartered engineers registered with Engineers Ireland, and persons registered with the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland, SCSI. The Minister is telling me that a quantity surveyor who comes under the SCSI is more qualified to sign off on work than an architectural technologist. This beggars belief. I spent 35 years in the industry. I can tell the Minister that while there are plenty of architects who are familiar with the technological dimension of putting schemes together, there are also many architects who are not.

An architect's primary job is to design. The job of an architectural technologist is to make sure that the building is put together properly and will stay up. However, these are the people the Minister is omitting from consideration as assigned certifiers. It does not stack up. The Minister said he is worried about situations similar to Priory Hall, which happened to be signed off by an RIAI member, although that is irrelevant at this stage. For the people who are most technically capable and most technically involved, this is their bread and butter. The architect, who is the designer, is actually employing these people to make sure the building will be constructed properly, will meet building regulations and will stand the test of time.

I do not understand the Government's thinking in omitting these people from the list of assigned certifiers. I cannot help but feel the Minister is being dictated to by the RIAI, which can be a bit of a club. He is protecting a protected profession at the expense of an awful lot of people who work day in, day out, and who are responsible for making sure things are done right. It does not stack up.

As I heard just before I came to the House, there is now an online petition asking the Minister to prepare a register in order that architectural technologists can be included. While I do not know what sort of information the Minister is getting, my experience is that I have employed design architects to do work for me, and there were times when I also had to get an architectural technologist to make sure all the building regulations were met. Architects are wonderful at design, and this country has some wonderful architects, but guaranteeing that the building is going to stay up and meet building regulations is a different game. These are the people the Minister is excluding. He needs to have a rethink on this issue.

Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Phil Hogan)

I thank Deputy Wallace for raising this important matter. The Deputy knows the Building Control Act 2007 is not working satisfactorily for the people we are all trying to help, namely, the person who is going to be the owner of the property and the consumer. There are hundreds of problems around the country arising from the implementation of the present building control regulations, although, of course, Deputy Wallace chose to ignore that.

The statutory certificates of compliance prescribed under the Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2014 must be signed by a registered professional. At present, this is a person who is included on the statutory registers of architects, building surveyors or engineers, as the Deputy mentioned. Neither I nor my Department have a role in the assessment or validation of professional qualifications. That is a matter for professional bodies in their roles as registration bodies under the Acts and as competent authorities for the purposes of the mutual recognition of professional qualifications in line with EU and national law.

The statutory registers prescribe and maintain the standard of competence that is required for each of the professional groupings subject to the protection of title. Inclusion on the registers is not restricted, however, to members of the professional bodies recognised in law as a registration body.

Depending on their personal circumstances, it is open to architectural technologists who possess the requisite experience and competence in the design and survey of buildings to seek inclusion on one of the statutory registers. It has been difficult to do this up to now. Architectural technologists who consider that they possess the requisite competence in the design and survey of construction works should identify the route to registration most suited to their own individual circumstances.

There is no question of persons who are not included on the statutory registers being permitted to sign the statutory certificates of compliance. The services of architectural technologists will, of course, continue to be in demand. Currently, architectural technologists who do not pursue inclusion on the statutory registers may continue to provide services in support of the role of an architect or other professional bodies and sign off on their work by way of ancillary certificate.

It should be noted that due to my concern, as outlined by Deputy Wallace, that it was difficult for people who had been involved in work as draughtsmen or architectural technologists to get recognition from statutory bodies, I commissioned an independent review. Upon publication of the report, I confirmed that I intended to implement the 20 recommendations in full. I am glad to say that a number have already been progressed to improve the technical assessment route to ensure that people are registered in the particular prescribed body. A number of recommendations will require legislative change, which will be effected as soon as possible. I will try to do so in this session.

I should also mention that my Department has engaged with the Chartered Institute of Architectural Technologists, CIAT, in respect of its desire for recognition of its chartered members. My Department has outlined a number of options open to CIAT that will observe the Building Control Act 2007, but it is also open to some of the suggestions that have been made by CIAT. This engagement has led to CIAT presenting separate cases for recognition of its chartered members under both the surveyor and the architect registers based on benchmarking the competence of its chartered members against the existing routes to registration.

As indicated earlier, neither I nor my Department has any role in the assessment or the validation of professional qualifications, and I cannot pre-empt the outcome in either case. However, I assure him that I am very conscious of what he is saying and that I have an open mind in respect of the correspondence and submissions that were made by CIAT last week where it indicated that it now wishes to see instead a stand-alone statutory register of architectural technologists instead of a situation in which architectural technologists apply to become members of existing professional bodies. I am examining this at the moment and have an open mind in respect of whether this possibility can be pursued in order to ensure we have competition in the marketplace for the assigned certifier role while also catering for the many people who have built up much experience and competence over the years, as outlined by the Deputy.

Deputy Mick Wallace

There is no doubt that unless a structure is formed whereby architectural technologists can constitute a statutory registered body on their own, architectural technologists will be second-class citizens. The Minister's new regulations insist on the submission of working drawings before work begins. I would have no problem with that. I always waited too long to get them from architects. It is not a bad idea. It is the architectural technologists who actually do the working drawings, but they are not allowed to sign off on them. Architectural technologists carry out the site visits but they are still not allowed to sign off on them. These people are being put in an inferior position compared to that of the architect. This is unfair and does not stack up on the ground.

The people who work in the industry know who does what. The architectural technologist is vital to guarantee that buildings are designed properly and meet fire safety and building regulations and that things are done the way they should be done. As the principal individual driving how the building is designed, the architect has a different role. One might as well have a hairdresser service one's car. It is completely different. This is not an insult to any architect, because his or her role relates more to design than to making sure building regulations are complied with. The architectural technologist has a far stronger involvement and link with the chartered engineer who designs the building to ensure it does not fall.

Aside from competition and rising costs, from the perspective of the health of industry, the Minister must have a rethink. I am very concerned that he is being fed the wrong information by some leading institutions. If one talks to the people on the ground, one finds that the architectural technologist is vital to a healthy industry in the years ahead.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I thought I gave a reasonable and positive response to the Deputy. I said I was prepared to examine these issues. I am concerned about the fees that are being quoted by some existing members of the statutory bodies, particularly for self-build projects. It seems they have developed into a cartel, particularly in rural areas where they are actually talking to each other about the level of fees, which are 10% of the cost of the project in many cases.

Deputy Mick Wallace

And 12%.

Deputy Phil Hogan

I am surprised that these professional bodies have done that, because all we are trying to do here is protect the consumer from some of the practices the Deputy knows about, which I have dealt with in many cases. The building regulations will ensure that these issues will not arise again in so far as I have anything to do with it. I am dissatisfied with the level of fees being quoted. I am certainly conscious of the competitive issues and am also conscious of the good people out there who can provide themselves with the work about which the Deputy is speaking if they pursue the route to registration with the changes I have made in recent times. However, sometimes people do not like to take that route. They feel that the existing statutory bodies and their representatives are not exactly generous in respect of the level of competence they have built up over the years through the individuals mentioned by the Deputy.

I am keeping this matter under review and looking at the submission that has been made recently by CIAT. I will make a decision very shortly about whether architectural technologists will be recognised. They are recognised through the UK process and it would be no difficulty for both of us to agree that we can have an Irish solution to a British problem, or the other way around.

Vehicle Registration

An Ceann Comhairle

The next request is from Deputies Coonan and McHugh to the Minister for Finance regarding the delays in vehicle registration for motor home vendors. I do not see Deputy McHugh here.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I must apologise for Deputy McHugh, who cannot attend as he has been delayed in traffic. He has asked me to speak on his behalf on this matter. I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this item. This is the high season for camper vans. If we look at the statistics that the Minister has supplied, we can see that their numbers are steadily declining, from a peak of 1,014 in 2009 to 126 last year. Part of the reason for this is the delay in registering motor homes. I will cite the most recent example that comes to mind. Last week, somebody sought to purchase a camper van from Pat Horan Motors, which was anxious to sell it. The vehicle had to go through the vehicle registration process and was eventually booked in on Friday evening after much pressure. Yesterday, the office was on a two-day week and one person failed to turn up, so there was nobody there in the morning. While somebody came in the evening, this added to the delay. Donaghey Motorhomes told me, through Deputy McHugh, that on 11 March it tried to book a date for a VRT test but received one 14 days later on 25 March. Both sales were lost, which is a loss to the Revenue Commissioners from a VAT perspective. On a sale of €82,000, the VAT lost is in the region of €15,337.

What is happening basically is the middle man is holding up the show. The Minister is interested in creating jobs and we are interested in protecting jobs but the customer service being offered to these dealers is appalling. What does the Minister plan to do to remedy this? Is he prepared to accept the unnecessary delays both in booking a registration and in having to forward documentation to Rosslare? When it eventually reaches Revenue officials, they are efficient in dealing with it. There is a problem and I would like the Minister to deal with it. I am anxious to hear his response to the problem.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael Noonan)

Since 2011 Revenue has provided a service where motor dealers can avail of a pre-registration examination at NCTS centres. The examination provides for a vehicle to be pre-inspected, entered onto the Revenue database and then registered online through the Revenue Online Service as sales are made. This pre-examination service is specifically designed to facilitate motor dealers and to provide them with a speedy registration option especially given the surge in vehicle registrations since the beginning of the year, which is reflected in both new and used car sales.

Revenue has to value many of these vehicles on a case by case basis and provide a vehicle specific valuation code to be used when registering the vehicle because of a lack of volume in motorhome registrations - 228 registrations in 2013 and 84 so far in 2014 - and significant variation in vehicle specifications. The codes had a lifespan of 50 days and it was brought to Revenue's attention earlier this year that the time limit was too short and that, as a result, dealers were experiencing delays in registering motorhomes. Following a review, Revenue has extended the period of validity of the codes to 150 days.

Where a motor dealer does not use the pre-examination facility they will have to book an examination slot at an NCTS centre. The surge in vehicle registrations this year means that there are also spikes in demand at NCTS centres and this will not always suit a motor dealer. The pre-examination system provided by the Revenue is designed so that dealers do not have this inconvenience. The availability of the pre-registration service and the recent changes to the period of validity of the valuation codes should ensure that registrations can be completed without delay. I am informed by the Revenue that any dealer with questions about valuation codes for motorhomes and their online registration should contact the Office of the Revenue Commissioners, Central Vehicle Office, Rosslare Harbour, Rosslare, County Wexford.

The Deputies' concerns are related to specific cases in their respective constituencies. I am informed that the extension to the period of validity to 150 days should deal with the matter in one of the Deputy's constituency - direct contact was made by Revenue with this dealer. The issues arising in the other Deputy's constituency may be related to the dealer not availing of the pre-examination service in the first instance. However, the Revenue can be contacted directly by the dealers on these issues.

Deputy Noel Coonan

I thank the Minister for his reply. It was difficult to hear him but I am sure I will get the written version of it.

The problem is somebody who wants to buy a motorhome will not hang around for two or three weeks to go through the registration process. They are going outside the country and that means business is being lost. The extended delay experienced by Donaghey Motorhomes and other dealers across the country with vehicle registration is having a negative effect on their businesses and it is likely to create problems for the people they employ. Donaghey Motorhomes has spent €20,000 upskilling its employees and the company has been informed that it not completed all necessary requirements and that is putting jobs at risk. Will the Minister make direct contact with the motorhome companies to resolve this issue and to deal with the difficulties? Previously, the motor dealer could go directly to Revenue. It was an inconvenience but not a problem.

Why does Revenue not have a library of prices similar to that for cars? Why is a company that has a TAN number, a VAT registration number and employing 16 people, which deals directly with the Revenue, not allowed to register motorhomes, as was previously the case? This is about basic customer service. We got a lesson in that from the electorate over the weekend. One must deal directly with people and give them proper customer service. This is not happening in this instance. Will the Minister simplify the process and resolve the issue in order that a better service can be offered to those involved in the motorhome trade? Trade peaks on occasion during the year but it is limited and dealers should be dealt with promptly. Will the Minister meet representatives of the companies affected to sort out this issue to their satisfaction?

Deputy Michael Noonan

Revenue has taken action to address potential delays in vehicle registration requirements. Since 2011 Revenue has provided a service where motor dealers can avail of a pre-registration examination at NCTS centres. There was a difficulty where the period of validity for codes ran out after 50 days but Revenue has extended this to 150 days and that will address the difficulty. Officials have examined the two cases brought to their attention by Deputies Coonan and McHugh. In one case, they contacted the dealer directly and that seems to have been resolved while they have invited the other dealer to contact them directly to see if that case can be resolved. I may be missing something and, therefore, I will bring the Deputy's submission to the attention of Revenue to see if further action is required.

Dental Services Provision

Deputy Sean Fleming

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue and I also thank the Minister of State at the Department of Health for taking it. This is a long-standing issue in the midlands, especially in County Laois where I live and where I meet many students. There is a long orthodontic waiting list for school children in my constituency. It is particularly bad in County Laois. Tremendous work was done a few years ago by the HSE when it set up a clinic in Portlaoise on Saturday mornings. It ran for a long time and the backlog was cleared but the situation seems to have deteriorated again.

The issue has come into focus in recent months. I tabled a parliamentary question a month or two ago and I subsequently received a detailed reply from HSE midlands dated 4 May. I asked when the school dentist would visit Killeshin national school in County Laois, which is near Carlow town and the reply stated:

The public dental service in the midlands no longer carries out school dental screenings. Service provision for the last 15 years has been structured through screenings carried out in the dental surgery. The children in specific classes are invited to their public dental clinic for a full dental examination. Dental services in Laois screen and treat the sixth classes in national school in one academic year

This is the problem. I received a letter from the parents committee of Killeshin national school. I cite the school because the source of its problem is it is located only a few miles from Carlow town. A dental service regulation was passed in 2000 to deal with this issue.

The school dental screening programme dentists should visit primary schools each year to see children in second, fourth and sixth class. I do not mind whether the dentists come to the schools or the students are sent to the clinic by appointment. That is not the issue. I am categorically informed that in the neighbouring county of Carlow screening is carried out in second, fourth and sixth classes. The pupils are examined and treated in a fair manner.

However, that does not happen across the border in the schools in County Laois, where a number of the schools have confirmed to me that the children are 12 years of age and almost finished primary school in sixth class before they get their first screening. There is zero prospect in practically all cases of any treatment being given to them in that year. Essentially, the established practice in County Laois is that children just get a screening before they leave primary school and they are several years into their secondary school education before they get any follow-up treatment. If the Minister's information is different from mine, the information he has been given is not accurate. In many of the schools in Laois children get their first screening just before they leave at 12 years of age and many of them are between 14 and 16 years of age before they get their first dental treatment following that screening.

I presume this is due to a staffing issue. For some reason there is a big geographical divide in the country when it comes to dental screening and treatment. Children are sometimes long past doing their junior certificate before they get their first dental treatment. That is not the intention of the regulation, but that is what is happening.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Alex White)

I thank the Deputy for the opportunity to address the issue of dental services for children in the midlands.

The public dental service of the HSE provides dental services for children up to 16 years of age and persons of all ages with special needs through its dental clinics. All HSE dental clinics prioritise emergency care for children up to 16 years of age, treatment for special needs patients and screening of children aged from 11 to 13 years, including referral for orthodontic services where necessary. Eleven to 13 years of age is a key age for dental assessment, since the child's permanent adult teeth have erupted, allowing a preventive sealant to be placed if necessary, and it is the usual age to refer for orthodontic and other secondary care. Other services, including screening of children of six to eight years, are provided but may be deferred in clinics where there is pressure on resources.

Usually when a child has been screened they are provided with care for their permanent primary teeth. In some cases it may be necessary to place a child, who has been examined through the school screening service, on a treatment waiting list. Treatment for a child who receives emergency care is generally confined to the relief of pain and sepsis. The aim is to ensure that all children receive equal access to screening and care at key developmental stages. However, staff retirements and the moratorium on recruitment in the public services have had an impact on the services that are provided. The HSE has had to reduce its levels of service while maintaining a priority service to emergencies, persons of all ages with special needs, orthodontic assessments and children between the ages of 11 and 13 years old.

Children who attend school in the midlands area, that is, Laois, Offaly, Longford, and Westmeath, are contacted by the HSE dental service through their school and are offered screening. For reasons related principally to quality, efficiency and effectiveness such children are usually examined in a dental surgery environment rather than in the school. This has been the case for many years in respect of all children throughout the midlands.

In the past two years the public dental service in the midlands has lost three dental surgeons. The dental services to children have therefore been reduced. The service in the Midlands generally screens and treats sixth class children in the one academic year. In some instances screening for such children may run into the following academic year. Some clinics may also get to screen younger children from other classes. Approval has been granted to recruit an additional dental surgeon for the area, which will help with service provision.

A three year project to develop a new national oral health policy is currently under way. Since the introduction of the dental health action plan in 1994 there have been changes to the oral health of the population. While the oral health of the general population has improved, inequalities remain. The vulnerability of some groups, linked to low income and-or disabilities, is of particular concern. The new policy will aim to set out how services can be best integrated with general health services and aligned with the current and future needs of the population. In developing a new national oral health policy there will be an exploration of the ways that oral health services can be provided for both adults and children.

Deputy Sean Fleming

Unfortunately, the Minister has confirmed my worst fears in his statement that in the past two years the public dental service in the midlands has lost three dental surgeons. That is the issue in a nutshell. That is why the children in the midlands are losing out. This is unfair. I realise it is fashionable to knock the HSE as a national body, but the purpose of the HSE is to ensure that there is equal treatment for people across the regions and that treatment will not be based on geography. This is not just about my area. The Minister mentioned four counties in the midlands but for people who live beside Counties Kildare, Carlow and Tipperary it is not right that children from the same village are getting different treatment according to what school they attend. That is unfair.

I ask the Minister to refer back to the HSE on this issue. In cases where children in one county must go to the screening clinic in a neighbouring county, that is not a big deal. Their parents will happily do that because sometimes they are obliged to drive 20 or 30 miles to a clinic anyway. It is not fair that screening is taking place for some children a couple of times before reaching 12 years of age. The Minister has confirmed that assessments are carried out when children are aged between 11 and 13 years of age, aside from emergencies to deal with pain relief and sepsis. Children are therefore approximately 12 years old when most of them are assessed, which is just before they leave the service. I have a long list of cases in my office and I have tabled parliamentary questions on a regular basis regarding children waiting 14, 15 and 16 years for their first treatment. They are screened before they leave primary school but wait several years for treatment.

The Minister used the phrase that the children get the assessment and treatment in the one year. They get the assessment but, given that the service is down three dental surgeons, they are not getting the treatment, as the Minister is being led to believe. I am pleased that a dental surgeon is being recruited but perhaps some arrangement can be put in place for a period just to clear the backlog, as happened previously. Clinics could be opened in an area and staffed by dentists from neighbouring counties or regions to conduct a number of Saturday clinics. This happened successfully in the past. I realise there is a cost, but it would be less than the cost of having to employ a dental surgeon. I ask the Minister to consider that.

Deputy Alex White

The Deputy makes some helpful suggestions. As he acknowledged, I have not sought to deny the fact that there have been reductions in staffing as a consequence of the general cuts in health services. The Deputy is well aware of the background to that with regard to the overall spending it is possible to make available to the health services. It has been a real problem. I am glad to report that a decision has been made to recruit an additional dental surgeon. The post has yet to be filled but I am hopeful it can be filled in early course.

What the Deputy said generally about the need for dental services, treatment and checks is well taken. I am very conscious of the point he makes about teenage children. He is absolutely correct about its importance and I will take on board the suggestion he made towards the end of his contribution. We do not want to have anomalies arising between different counties if they can be avoided.

Industrial Disputes

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I welcome the workers and union representatives who are in the Visitors Gallery. The Paris Bakery on Moore Street has closed its doors. This type of event is always a sad occasion. People are out of work and wondering from where the next pay cheque will come or how they will pay the next bill or even put bread on the table. For the workers in the Paris Bakery these concerns have been to the forefront of their minds for over three months. That is how long the employees of Ruth Savill and Yannick Forel have been without wages and working for free, in the hope that ultimately matters would be resolved and they would receive their remuneration.

When the owners of the Paris Bakery decided to lock the doors and lock their workers out it became all too apparent to these mainly young migrant workers that they had a fight on their hands. Staff are owed over €55,000 in unpaid wages. The owners profited from their free work. It is said that the owners also owe approximately €200,000 in unpaid taxes and a PRSI payment as well. One of the owners has a stud farm, which is the type of business that already pays a tiny level of tax. Some of the staff have already been made homeless due to the refusal of the owners to pay wages. Others, having lost everything, were forced to borrow money to leave the country. They are now in debt outside this country due to the bad practice of the owners of the Paris Bakery.

The workers who remain decided that drastic action was necessary and began to occupy the premises of the Paris Bakery to protest against and highlight their mistreatment.

It is bad enough that we demean and mistreat those who cannot find work and exploit young people with JobBridge scams, but the State cannot allow workers in employment to be mistreated so severely. The fundamental premise of an economy is that a fair day's work deserves a fair day's wage, which is exactly what these workers are being denied having given their labour in good faith. What the owners of the Paris Bakery have done should be a criminal offence and they should be liable to be arrested and charged.

The Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, met the workers last night, which I welcome. I ask that the Government do all it can to offer help and support to these workers and bring a resolution to the problem. The State has a responsibility to intervene in such cases of abuse and unjust behaviour by employers and business owners. Owed wages should be paid and workers compensated for the hardship they have had to endure over recent weeks and months. It is not good enough to go off and establish another business while leaving a trail of misery and deprivation behind. We must ensure that people get what is owed to them, whether it is redundancy payment, wages, holiday pay or another benefit. We call ourselves a modern society, but have antiquated laws and need the proper workers' rights the Government promised. When will this happen? We need actions and solutions, not ministerial visits with no follow-up. I call on employers to do the right thing and I call on the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, to intervene due to the hardships these workers have endured.

Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Richard Bruton)

I thank Deputy Ellis for raising the matter. I share his concern at the worrying situation that has evolved. I hope the concerns of the employees can be addressed to their satisfaction quickly and that they can end the sit-in. NERA met with representatives of the employees last Friday and informed them of their rights, entitlements and means of redress. NERA has also provided continuing contact details and is in active contact not only with the employees but with the employer to resolve the situation.

Deputy Ellis raised the issue of workers' rights. Ireland has a significant body of employment rights which are enshrined in legislation, including the Payment of Wages Act 1991, which contains protections for employees and provides a means of redress for employees who have not received their full wages from an employer. Non-payment of wages or any deficiency in the amount of wages properly payable by an employer to an employee on any occasion will be regarded as an unlawful deduction from wages unless the deficiency or non-payment is attributable to an error of computation. The Payment of Wages Act 1991 provides for a right of complaint to a rights commissioner for any employee who has not received his or her wages or who has had an unlawful deduction made. A complaint must be presented to a rights commissioner using the prescribed form within six months of the deduction or non-payment giving rise to the complaint. I understand that at this point no such application has been made in this case.

A number of other employee rights come into play in the circumstances of the closure of a business, including minimum notice and redundancy rights. Under the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Acts, an employee with a minimum of 13 weeks' service with an employer is entitled to notice of termination of employment. The length of the notice to which an employee is entitled is dependent on length of service and can range from one week's notice for an individual with less than two years' service up to eight weeks' notice where an employee has more than 15 years' service. Where an employer is unable or fails to provide the appropriate notice, such employer may make a payment in lieu of the notice. An employee who does not receive the minimum notice to which he or she is entitled may take a case to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

Under the Protection of Employment Act 1977, companies proposing collective redundancies - i.e. those in which at least 20 people are employed - must enter into consultations with the employee representatives at least 30 days before anyone receives notice of redundancy. They must also notify the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation of the proposed redundancies at least 30 days before any employee receives notice of redundancy. Consultation with the employee representatives and the notification period for the Minister can run concurrently. I understand that no notice of redundancy has been served by the employer in this case.

In accordance with the Redundancy Payments Acts 1967 to 2012, employees who have at least two years' continuous service with an employer are generally entitled to a statutory redundancy payment in the event of being made redundant. The administration of the redundancy payments legislation is within the remit of my colleague, the Minister for Social Protection, who has advised that it is the responsibility of the employer to pay statutory redundancy to all eligible employees. However, where an employer can prove to the satisfaction of the Department of Social Protection that he or she is unable to pay statutory redundancy to his or her eligible employees, the Department will make lump sum payments directly to those employees. Such payments are made from the Social Insurance Fund and result in a debt being raised against the employer which the Department of Social Protection will seek to recover. Where an employer either fails to comply with his or her redundancy payment obligations or where there is a dispute regarding redundancy entitlements, claims may be referred by the employee to the Employment Appeals Tribunal.

Where an employer is legally insolvent and, as a result, defaults on payment of wages and other entitlements, an employee may also be entitled to seek redress from the State under the insolvency payments scheme. These payments also cover overtime, holiday pay, sick pay, etc. In these circumstances, redundancy payment entitlements may also be met from the Social Insurance Fund. I have been informed by the Minister for Social Protection that she has received no formal notifications from the company. A company may be put into liquidation by its members. An alternative is that the company's creditors may apply to the courts to have the company put into liquidation. Employees owed wages or other payments count as creditors and would be entitled to apply to have the company put into liquidation.

If the employees and the employer agree that conciliation or another form of intervention might assist in resolving some of the difficulties they are facing, the State's industrial relations machinery is available to assist in this dispute if required. Often, what appear to be the most intractable disputes are capable of resolution where both sides engage constructively and in good faith in this voluntary process. The principle of good faith implies that both sides in a dispute make every effort to reach an agreement and endeavour through genuine and constructive negotiations to resolve their differences. Ireland's system of industrial relations is, essentially, voluntary in nature, and responsibility for the resolution of industrial disputes between employers and workers, whether in redundancy or other collective disputes, rests with the employer, the workers and their representatives. However, the State provides an industrial relations dispute settlement mechanism to support parties in their efforts to resolve their differences. All of the agencies and bodies under the remit of my Department remain available to the parties should this be of assistance.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank the Minister for his reply. It is clear that this employer has not engaged with either the employees or the Departments. It is very clear from what the Minister said. It is outrageous that workers should be treated like this. Many of them have even left the country. Some do not have bread on the table, cannot pay their rent and are living like homeless people. It is a scandal that it should happen in this day and age.

There is now an onus on the Minister to adopt a far more hands-on approach and to push these employers. It is not the first time we have seen this. It has happened on a good number of occasions. The way the workers have been treated in this case is the worst example we have seen. It is high time the Minister tells these employers that they must live up to this. It is very strange that the company is supposed to be moving to another premises. Those involved have money to go off and set up a new business elsewhere while at the same time the employees are punished. It is scandalous. We need intervention and pressure to be brought to bear on these companies. That we do not have proper workers' rights is very clear from the way these employers have handled the case. We are behind in terms of workers' rights.

We need to strengthen that and put it up to these employers. They cannot be allowed to treat people like this - it does not matter who they are. They should not be allowed to do it.

Deputy Richard Bruton

The Deputy has raised a number of points about this disturbing situation. I cannot comment on the veracity of some of the points made by the Deputy. If there is a serious case of unpaid taxes, it is a matter for the Revenue Commissioners. The Revenue Commissioners have extensive powers in respect of any company that fails or has unpaid taxes, including the power to put such a company into liquidation.

NERA is the enforcement agency on behalf of the Department and is engaging with both sides and it has certain powers. As outlined in my reply, there are ways in which justifiable unpaid wages can be pursued through the Rights Commissioner Service or, in certain cases, through the Employment Appeals Tribunal. That route exists and, to date, it has not been activated.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

There are time factors.

Deputy Richard Bruton

None of the triggers that can be pursued have been activated. As creditors, the employees have the power to initiate an action to seek to get the company to wind up. I recognise the difficulty with payment where a company does not actively declare insolvency. Under the current legislation, the insolvency fund can be triggered only in the event that the company approaches the Department or is insolvent. That issue is being examined by the Department of Social Protection in respect of whether changes need to be made. In this situation, NERA is engaging with both sides and none of the mechanisms, either redundancy or the rights commissioner mechanism, have been activated. The services of my Department continue to be available through NERA or, if necessary, through the Labour Relations Commission to assist in the case. I hope we can come to a solution. The agencies are actively engaged. The Deputy may want to add material in light of the statements he made in respect of the Revenue Commissioners.