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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Jun 2014

Vol. 843 No. 4

Leaders' Questions

I welcome the statement by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Charles Flanagan, that the Government will establish a statutory commission of inquiry into the operation of mother and baby homes. Such an inquiry will have to deal clearly with how women were treated and mistreated in such homes, the high infant mortality rates in such homes, the burial practices, the carrying out of vaccine trials, all of the circumstances surrounding adoption practices, for example, illegal and forced adoptions, and much more. Above all, I suggest such an inquiry will have to deal with the societal backdrop and society's attitude at the time to women who became pregnant outside marriage. Shame, guilt, stigmatisation, hardship and a culture of concealment were all part of society's response to such women. They endured all of this because they were deemed to have broken society's rules. Much of this is incomprehensible to present day generations, but it was nonetheless the reality. Children born in such homes were treated as lesser beings with fewer rights. Many were barbarically taken from their mothers without real respect for their mothers or their own inalienable rights as children. The importance of this issue for present day society and future generations concerns the need to learn lessons and, I hope, influence society for the better in how it deals with the many social issues that come its way.

A question, please.

This will be complex and sensitive work in which we will engage constructively. Given the sensitivities involved for families, adoptees and adoptive parents, is the Government open to consultations with Opposition parties in drawing up the terms of reference and considering the structure and nature of the inquiry in the light of the scale and scope of what will, undoubtedly, have to be covered?

Will the Government agree or has it agreed to establish a dedicated counselling service for all those who have been affected by experiences in mother and baby homes? A dedicated counselling service should be established. It would take time to do this, but such a service should be established to be of assistance. A confidential telephone line should be established by the Government immediately, manned by appropriate personnel to deal with the queries that will undoubtedly arise from the highlighting of the issue in recent times.

I thank the Deputy for his constructive comments. Everybody is aware that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs has today announced that the Government will set up a commission of inquiry into mother and baby homes as run in Ireland in the past decades. We do so with a sense of sadness but, equally, with a sense of duty and resolve. The interdepartmental group has commenced its work which it will continue on all of the issues being mentioned to be reported on to the Government shortly. This is about examining a period in which women, particularly young women, were silent and silenced. It was an extraordinary time when the women of Ireland, mna na hÉireann, poor women especially, were callously held to account. It is not an exaggeration to say that in many cases their treatment and that of their babies was an abomination. In that regard, the inquiry will consider a time when there was a disturbing symbiosis between the Church and the State when a sin became, if not a civil wrong, certainly a societal offence. These were not the good old days about which we were told. They were not times of happiness or comfort for a great number of people. The walls of respectability that surrounded many God-fearing sectors of society have now been dismantled and the consequent freedom and shame are ours to act on and we will do so.

I thank the Deputy for his comments which were made in a constructive fashion. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is open to full consultations with members of the Opposition. This is an issue for Ireland because if it is not handled properly, in many ways, Ireland's soul will lie, like the babies of so many mothers, in an unmarked grave. It is important that we try to get this right.

I take the Deputy's points on counselling and the structure, scale and scope of the inquiry. These are matters the Minister will certainly take into account. It is for the mothers involved and their babies and the sake of the lost and stolen generations within families that we deal with the issue. I hope we will hold the inquiry in as compassionate, humane and understanding a way as possible. The Minister will see to it that Opposition parties and Independent Members are consulted fully in terms of discussions on the structure of the inquiry, the terms of reference and how the issue should be handled.

This issue has affected the lives of so many in the country and abroad as a consequence of what happened. While in some cases we seem to consider that this just happened in the past few years, it is a reflection of a period since the foundation of the State in terms of what happened to women and mothers in Irish society. Where they were poor and uneducated, it made matters even worse. It is not about comely maidens dancing at the crossroads. This is an issue for the Ireland of today to deal with as another element of our not so glorious past.

I welcome the Taoiseach's comments on engaging with the Opposition, but I ask that the various representative groups and parties involved be consulted also. I presume the Minister will do this on both the structure of such an inquiry and also its terms of reference.

With regard to a dedicated counselling service, by way of information, when we established the commission of inquiry into the abuse which had taken place in institutions, it took two years to establish a dedicated counselling service with properly qualified personnel who were particularly adept and expert in that area. I suspect something similar will occur in this instance. I appeal to the Taoiseach to do everything he can to set up a dedicated counselling service as speedily as possible because many people may have buried much of what happened or may not have been dealing with it until recently because of the debate. Undoubtedly, it will create issues for people and families and as the inquiry begins, there will be a need for an ongoing and specific counselling service to be established. What is required is something that will be separate from normal counselling services that may be available to people on an ongoing basis in the realm of adoption. A separate and specific service needs to be established for those who have experience of these homes.

I also believe we owe a great debt to social historians and, more recently, Catherine Corless who made the discovery in Tuam but who did so in a measured and balanced way, as we can gather from reading some of the material that was carried in the media over the weekend. She came up with information on 800 babies who had died in the home in Tuam alone and had been buried there between 1925 and 1961. We are looking at a period that dates back to the early part of the last century, up to the late 1970s, if not later, an enormous expanse of time. The inquiry will have to have a number of strands to it. Will the Taoiseach give a commitment to establish a counselling service and a confidential telephone helpline which should be established without undue delay?

The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will take note of all the comments and suggestions coming to him, including from the Deputy in respect of counselling services and a confidential telephone line. Obviously, the terms of reference for the investigation will need to be considered very carefully. I understand most of the information is available, but it needs to be collated and gone through. I honestly believe this is a much broader question about the kind of society in which our people lived from the foundation of the State until the early 1960s. I know from the part of the country I come from that there are implications in terms of what happened to children who were fostered, the vaccination issue, those who were forcibly signed into mental institutions by families, the banishing of young women from various locations around the country to have their babies in Liverpool or wherever else, if not in mother and baby homes, the mortality rates which were so high and the old buildings, the walls of which were infested with TB and whatever else. These are all issues that need to be considered in the context of the kind of society we had at the time. Essentially, this is about the kind of country Ireland was in which women, in particular, were the focus of shame and suppression. I think today of the late Nuala Fennell who served in this House and was the principal driver of the banishment of illegitimacy when babies born out of wedlock were deemed to be an inferior sub-species. That is one of the issues that will be dealt with. In so far as the Government and the House are concerned, this is about the country and its people. It is not about apportioning blame at any one location.

We can apologise to everybody, but where does it end? This was Ireland of the 1920s to the 1960s, an Ireland that might have been portrayed as having a glorious and brilliant past but which within its shadows contained all of these cases, and in which people felt ashamed and different and were suppressed and dominated. Obviously, the question of their treatment in the mother and baby homes is a central part of that, as were the issues identified in the Ryan report with regard to mother and baby homes, the fostering out of babies by institutions, and so on. It is another issue that we must deal with in 2014 to the best of our ability. In an attempt to get this as right as possible we will, through the programme being put together by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, meet with everybody, including the historians and groups mentioned by Deputy Martin.

Cuirim fáilte roimh an gcinneadh atá déanta ag an Rialtas coimisiún fiosrúcháin a bhunú. Is cúis áiféala é gur tharla na rudaí seo sa chéad áit, ach is maith an rud é go bhfuil an cinneadh seo tógtha.

I, too, welcome that the Government is to establish a commission of inquiry into mother and baby homes across this State. In the past week or so there have been horrific revelations in this regard, including that up to 800 children may have been buried in an unmarked communal plot at the site of a former mother and baby home in Tuam. It is alleged that a regime of neglect and malnutrition caused the deaths of these most vulnerable of our citizens. As we know, this was not an isolated case. Dozens of these homes were operated across Ireland from the late 1800s up to partition and then in this State up until the 1970s. It is clear that the women and babies had no rights. It is also clear from the harrowing accounts of survivors who in recent days found the strength to speak out that their lives were destroyed. It is well past time that the institutions and agencies of this State faced up to this shameful period. I commend the survivors and other activists, particularly the historians, who have kept faith on this issue.

I would like, if I may, to tease out the terms of reference of the proposed inquiry. As stated by the Taoiseach, it must be comprehensive. There are a number of key issues on which it must focus, including that of the imprisonment of pregnant women in mother and baby homes, the taking of babies from their mothers against their will, the cause of the shocking infant mortality rates at mother and baby homes, the circumstances surrounding the burial of children and babies who died at these homes, the routine illegal adoption and trafficking to the USA of an unknown number of children, and the subjection of children, without the consent of their mothers, to medical trials. There are other institutions that need to be included in this inquiry, including the Westbank Home in Greystones, County Wicklow, and similar institutions. Can the Taoiseach confirm that all these issues will be covered by the Government's commission of inquiry and, also, whether the commission will have full powers of compellability in relation to those whom it wishes to interview and full access to all records and documents, whether held by public authorities or private institutions?

Aontaím leis an Teachta Adams gurb é seo an rud is fearr le déanamh.

I welcome the Deputy's constructive suggestions. Many people come here from America to trace their roots, having been adopted by Americans. The vast majority of those adopted by people in the United States were perfectly healthy babies. What we need to know is what happened to those who were not so healthy and had problems, intellectual and physical, or other difficulties. The Church can play a role here in terms of identification of burial grounds, whether consecrated or to be consecrated, and the proper marking of same, and in relation to the privacy issues surrounding adopted children and so on. I understand that several thousand children were adopted by people in the United States. The commission will also examine the issue of imprisonment of women, as mentioned by Deputy Adams. On the question regarding the structure and nature of the investigation, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will discuss that issue at 4 p.m. with members of the Opposition and Independent Deputies.

It is a case of trying to define a set of terms of reference that are based on the key facts that need to be determined. Everybody has his or her own view on how we deal with that. Information is now beginning to flood in from many quarters. Rather than have a rushed reaction in terms of the quick establishment of an inquiry that might not be as comprehensive, suitable or appropriate as needs be, it is important that the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, on behalf of Government, takes a little time to get this right, although not too long, as this issue has drifted for many decades now. It is one that filters out into a wider societal background of the type referred to by Deputy Martin and also referred to by me. From that point of view, the Deputy can take it that the inquiry will be as comprehensive, thorough and appropriate as possible.

In my view, what we do not want is a litigious response that results in an expensive assessment of facts and files already available in the public domain. There is a whole series of issues involved that need to be dealt with. I would assume that the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, will engage constructively with everybody who wishes to contribute, including historians, local groups, members of the public and public representatives, and will try to ascertain the totality of the range of facts that need to be determined and on that basis define the structure and terms of reference for the commission. Members of the House will be directly involved in that.

Go raibh maith agat. In trying to come to terms with this, one of the questions I asked of myself was how did this State allow the establishment of these institutions for women who had babies out of wedlock. In trying to tease through the sad history of all of this, the more profound question is what are we going to do about it. The Government, by announcing the establishment of a commission of inquiry, has made a good start. The Taoiseach's commitment to work with parties in Opposition and others is also to be welcomed.

Sinn Féin has been consistently raising the issue of Bethany Home with the Government. The Government still has not fulfilled its responsibilities to the victims of the Bethany Home, which I have never understood, given the small number of people involved. What we now have on the back of that is greater revelations involving even more citizens. While I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment and that of the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, Sinn Féin's responsibility is to hold the Government to account in all of these matters. Counselling is crucial. In many cases, it is an add-on. It is crucial for all of the survivors and others traumatised by these revelations.

Why is An Garda Síochána not investigating this? That strikes me as a pertinent point.

Why is the site in Tuam not sealed off so that experts can be brought in to examine it?

Will the Government support Sinn Féin's Private Members' motion on this latest shameful episode of our history? I am pleased that our motion has been overtaken by the Government's announcement, but I would like the Government to make clear its position on the motion.

The Government wants to make it clear that it has decided to hold an inquiry by way of a commission of investigation into these matters. As I stated, the range of issues and facts that need to be determined is very extensive. Encompassed is a very broad range of societal issues. Therefore, it is only right and proper that we attempt to deal with this as thoroughly, fully and appropriately as possible.

Deputy Adams has mentioned Bethany Home in the House on quite a number of occasions. Archbishop Jackson has written to me today about this matter. The question being examined was whether Bethany Home should be considered as part of the investigation and analysis of the Magdalen laundries. Bethany Home was clearly not a laundry. It is now one of a significant number of mother and baby homes that must be investigated.

I have heard varying estimates as to the number of graveyards and cemeteries around the country. In every county, there are unmarked graves where children were buried. Some were from the Famine times and some may include children who came from mother and baby homes. The analysis of the records, burial procedures and burial grounds, whether consecrated or not, must be focused on also. In my part of the country, up until just a few years ago, unconsecrated ground was where children born out of wedlock were buried. They were treated as a different species entirely. It was not until the 1980s that the concept of illegitimacy was abolished.

These are valuable contributions that Members make. The Minister for Children and Youth Affairs will lead on this matter on behalf of the Government and, as I stated, will consult broadly the public, all the relevant groups and, of course, elected Members in order to get this as right as possible.

It is very hard to put a fix on the conclusion of the process. The big message is that the Government is obviously concerned with the implications and has decided to have a formal inquiry or commission of investigation. My hope is that Members of the House, the various parties and Independent groups can all work together to try to deal with this matter, which is another episode from our not-so-glorious past.

I too welcome the announcement of a commission of inquiry. That inquiry will be far reaching. Fundamentally, it will go back to the origins of a state that was controlled by fear and where responsibility for services was often outsourced. This led to a real tragedy for those who lived in and, in some cases, died in mother and baby homes. I will obviously attend the briefing and comment on it later.

I wish to raise another issue, a contemporary example of the outsourcing of responsibility. Tomorrow we will pass the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill. This is a seminal moment in that we will officially abandon people on housing waiting lists to the markets. In the absence of dealing with anything on the supply side, housing authorities will now become housing support agencies. This represents a fundamental shift in how we deal with housing. The private sector will now become the sole supplier, or almost the sole supplier, of social housing. It is a figleaf that attempts to cover up the emergency that is evident. Recent announcements by the Minister responsible for housing are intended to give the impression that many things are being done. Those announcements, however, are superficial and inadequate, given the scale of what is needed. Much of this is being brushed under the carpet.

In many cases, there are children involved. We are back talking about children. The children can be sheltered only for so long from the fear they will pick up from their parents. Uncertainty as to where they will go to school next week and the question of whether they will have a home in a month's time will inevitably have an impact on their lives.

There appears to be no standard response to the treatment of families facing homelessness; it very much depends on the location of the family. Some local authorities provide short-term temporary accommodation, and others send the individuals away. Some of those presenting are very vulnerable. How, for example, can a young woman who delivered twins ten weeks prematurely just three weeks ago go house-hunting when she is caring for those babies in intensive care? How can a deaf woman caring for a child with special needs convince a landlord to take less than the market rent? The entire process is very much a hands-off one. People are left to their own devices with unrealistic rent supplement limits. It is an impossible task.

Does the Taoiseach agree that housing authorities are being turned into housing support agencies? If not, what is the Government's plan to deal with the supply-side shortage in the short and medium terms? Will he acknowledge the role of rent supplement limits in the current crisis and take immediate steps to relax the rent caps to allow families to secure housing?

I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for her comments and I know she will contribute constructively to the hearings being held by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

The Government considered this morning the latest report from the National Economic and Social Council, NESC, on the question of the provision of adequate social housing for people who need housing. Obviously, this is related to the general problems of homelessness and demand for houses. The report concluded that there is a requirement for a new funding model for the provision of social housing and that it will not be possible to continue funding through the model that applied before - direct provision through local authorities. A new funding model will have to be created to deal with the scale and cost of what is involved. The report from NESC is timely. It feeds into the strategy being followed now by the Minister of State responsible for housing, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, in the provision of direct housing, the provision of money strictly for homeless people and the allocation of moneys to have almost 2,000 units that have been boarded up for some time occupied by families so they can be taken out of hotels and bed and breakfasts and given proper, warm and appropriate accommodation. I refer also to the question of the delivery, through NAMA and other agencies, of both ground and the opportunity to provide adequate housing for people. The House will be aware that €50 million was provided through the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government towards the provision of homelessness services in 2013. A similar investment is expected again this year. In addition, the health service spends €30 million providing care and supports for the homeless. Obviously, having emerged from a very difficult recession, very many people now regard this as a real issue. The Government recognises this. A central feature of the Government's focus this year is dealing with the construction sector. There is, of course, the opportunity for the private construction sector to step up to the mark in a way it has not been able to do in recent years and provide affordable, high-quality houses for people who need them at appropriate locations around the country. This is to prevent a repeat of the granting of planning permission in areas where it might not have been appropriate in many cases.

The Deputy's point is valid; it is recognised by the Government. Obviously, the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is working very hard to make a real impact in this area.

The Taoiseach has just given me what is more or less a rundown of what was announced about a month ago. I cannot believe he thinks this is adequate to deal with the current crisis.

I wonder whether the Taoiseach has a real appreciation of the scale of the crisis. As he has just said, the €50 million announced for the provision of accommodation for homeless persons in the next two years will deliver something like 253 housing units nationwide. Obviously, this is to be welcomed, but it will not even scratch the surface in terms of what is needed. These announcements strike me as being on a par with the delusional budget that led to the medical card fiasco. The Government keeps on adopting piecemeal approaches when it is a supply side issue. As I have said on numerous occasions, we have been told at the environment committee that there is a very large amount of money to be leveraged from the European Investment Bank for this purpose, in the region of €500 million, but we are not getting to grips with this problem.

A question, please.

I recall the Taoiseach telling us a number of weeks ago that he had gone up to a homeless man on the street and talked to him. I urge him to go to any house for rent in Dublin, its suburbs or surrounding counties. What typically happens is that people plead with and beg the letting agents to accept rent supplement and they try to convince them to accept additional money under the table in order that they will not find themselves homeless.

A question, please.

I am just about to ask it. What the Taoiseach would notice is the sense of fear and panic people are confronted with when they find themselves in a situation they never thought would happen. My questions are as follows. Will the Government implement preventive programmes to prevent families from becoming homeless in the first place and work with some of the housing charities in that regard? Will it look in a serious way at the funding available through the European Investment Bank for the provision of a rental sector that would ultimately provide homes for people, rather than a temporary property solution for them?

The Government engages with the European Investment Bank and much more money is being invested now in a range of projects than was the case. In fact, one of the difficulties in Ireland in the past was that we did not bring forward projects of sufficient scale to warrant investment from the European Investment Bank. That is no longer the case.

I take the Deputy's point on the scale of what is available for particular housing, but we have to start somewhere. Why is it that we have all of these residential units boarded up? This leads to activities that are not in keeping with good estate management. The Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, received money from the Government recently in order that every council in the country could bring 2,000 of these units back into a condition where people could live in them comfortably. When Dublin City Council repairs unit X which is boarded up, it tears everything out and starts as if it is an empty shell, when it is not necessary to do this in many cases. A good, competent builder could restore a unit to provide very comfortable accommodation for a hell of a lot less and in a lot less time. There is no reason for this, other than wanting to comply with spurious conditions. We have to start somewhere. I hope the bringing of these 2,000 units back on stream will send a signal in its own way from every local authority. The Minister of State now reports to the Government each week on the progress being made in order these units can be brought back into use.

On another point, I find that in this city, when a unit is brought back to a liveable standard, it is often nine or ten months before it is allocated to a family, which seems unorthodox. One would think that when units were identified, families would also be identified to move into them and not have them repaired and left vacant for 12 months or more.

Then do something about it.

The Taoiseach is the one in government.

The Taoiseach is in power.

Order, please. We are way over time.

If families were told at the beginning that a house was for them, it would deal with the problem and give them a sense of confidence and hope the issue could be sorted out. We have had discussions in the House specifically on housing and the Minister of State has a particular strategy. We need a longer term focus.

What we want to end up with is more houses than we need to control prices and markets. However, we cannot build them overnight, as the Deputy is well aware.

On the pilot housing assistance scheme to ensure people do not lose all of their benefits and the question of rent capping, these are all matters that are being considered by the Minister of State. Obviously, Deputies are entitled to request the Ceann Comhairle to take matters of topical interest when they arise. It is genuinely a focus of the Minister of State with responsibility for housing with the full backing of the Government. I hope that within six months we can make real progress on it.

The Taoiseach is a waffler.

Deputy Enda Kenny is the Taoiseach.

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