Vol. 846 No. 1
66. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs if he will include Magdalen laundries in the Government inquiry into mother and baby homes; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [27896/14]
My question is to ask the Minister if he will include Magdalen laundries in the Government inquiry into the mother and baby homes.
The Government has undertaken to establish a commission of investigation into the issues relating to mother and baby homes. While I have confirmed that the intended scope of this investigation will go beyond the home operated by the Sisters of Bon Secours in Tuam, County Galway, the process to develop specific terms of reference is being advanced in collaboration with relevant colleagues across Government. Significant progress is being made in this task which is being supported by a high level, cross-departmental review committee involving representatives of eight Departments, the Office of Public Works and the National Archives.
Following the decision to establish a commission of investigation, there have been calls for the inclusion of a range of other institutions, including the Magdalen laundries and related concerns, and those are being given consideration as part of the process under way. The position as outlined by my colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, in response to a recent parliamentary question on the issue may be of interest to Deputy O'Sullivan. The Minister, Deputy Fitzgerald, advised the House that the facts available regarding Magdalen laundries have been set out in detail in the McAleese report which exceeds 1,000 pages. The women concerned have received an apology from the Taoiseach, had the opportunity to relate their stories to both former Senator McAleese and Mr. Justice Quirke, and are entitled to receive a capital sum of up to €100,000 depending on duration of stay as well as life-long pension top-up payments and access to medical services.
The McAleese report examined the links between mother and baby homes and Magdalen laundries. His statistical analysis of the known entry routes into Magdalen laundries for the period 1920 onwards showed that 4% of entries were from mother and baby homes and adoption societies.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
In the light of the above, the Minister suggested that there was a valid question as to how inclusion of the Magdalen laundries within the terms of reference of another inquiry would be in the interest of or be of benefit to the women in question. I do not wish to prejudge the outcome of the Government's deliberations on the commission to investigate mother and baby homes. I assure the Deputy that the question she has raised will be reflected upon and considered carefully by Government in the context of setting the terms of reference for the commission of investigation. All of the matters raised publicly and submitted to my Department with regard to the proposed commission's terms of reference will be given consideration in arriving at an overall scope for the commission which is workable and effective.
I welcome the Minister's statement that the inclusion of Magdalen laundries in the terms of reference of the commission of inquiry is under consideration. People who have taken oral testimonies from some of the ladies in the Magdalen laundries did say that babies were born and nursed at the Magdalen laundry in Sean MacDermott Street in Dublin. The biennial reports that were found in the Department of Health archives contained information relating to 26 children in the mother and baby home in Tuam between 1953 and 1958 for whom the whereabouts of parents was listed as a Magdalen laundry. It was stated also that the children were "maintained" in Tuam by both Galway and Mayo county councils. It was still policy in 1933 that unmarried mothers who had given birth a second time would also be transferred to a Magdalen laundry. A quote from the interdepartmental committee report - the McAleese report - shows that it was inadequate.
As the HSE was unable to provide the names and other relevant details ... before the publication date of this Report ... [consequently] it was not possible for the Committee to track these cases in the records of the Religious Congregations ... or to determine what became of the women after their referral to a Magdalen Laundry.
There are gaps in what has happened to date and that is the reason I would urge that the laundries would be included.
It is not my intention to prejudge the outcome of the Government's deliberation on the commission to investigate mother and baby homes. I hope the detailed terms of reference could be formulated in the coming weeks.
It is my intention that the commission will commence work during the summer and that prior to 17 July, the last Dáil sitting day, the formal terms of reference will be agreed. However, I must advise the Deputy that the McAleese report examined links between mother and baby homes, in particular the institution in Tuam, and Magdalen laundries.
My colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, asked a valid question relating to how the inclusion of Magdalen laundries in the terms of reference of another inquiry will interest and benefit the women in question. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan may be in a position to advise me on such issues but I assure her the question she raised is being considered. Given the scale of the issue and the scope of investigations already under way, I do not wish to reopen issues that have been dealt with in many respects.
The Irish Human Rights Commission and the Committee Against Torture of the United Nations Office of the High Commissioner for Human Rights have raised the continuing failure to investigate abuse in Magdalen laundries. There are many connections between mother and baby homes, industrial schools and Magdalen laundries. Justice for Magdalenes is an organisation that works with survivors of the Magdalen laundries and it submitted 793 pages of survivor testimony to the McAleese committee. However, none of this appeared in the report because the committee's terms of reference related to State involvement with the institutions. As the Minister pointed out, the committee did this but unanswered questions remain. We now have an opportunity to collate the evidence and testimonies and get things right in order that there can be real closure.
The investigations will require experts in archival work and historians. Having conducted investigations, some county councils said certain material did not exist but the material was subsequently found by historians. I thank the Minister and hope he gives this serious consideration.
I acknowledge the Deputy's contribution on this. As I said earlier, there is a wide range of documentation before the interdepartmental committee. I agree that a social historian or archivist should be involved to ensure all documentation is appropriately logged. Issues exist relating to burial arrangements and high mortality rates at mother and baby homes. There are other issues too, such as clinical trials, domestic and international adoptions, the circumstances of mothers and the manner in which homes were run generally. It has already been suggested that an important North-South dimension must be examined.
If the Deputy has further documentation that could be of use to the Department or the commission of investigation, she should forward copies to me. I have already received over 100 written submissions and they will all feed into the process. It is expected that the Government will agree appropriate terms of reference in the coming weeks prior to the Dáil's recess on 17 July. I want an historic all-party agreement on this issue and I ask Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan, in conjunction with her colleagues on the Independent benches, to make submissions and engage in the process. I am anxious that full and detailed consideration be given to all aspects of this matter.
67. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs if he will provide a rationale for including only a portion of early years staff as eligible for FETAC level 6 training subsidies through the learner fund as a means of enhancing quality standards; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28010/14]
In reply to an earlier question today the Minister cited the need for improvements across the board to enhance quality standards in early childhood care and education. However, the fund announced by his Department is restrictive in nature and leads to an inconsistency in standards in terms of who can apply for funding. Can the Minister explain the rationale behind the decision to launch such a restrictive fund?
International evidence indicates that raising the qualification levels of staff working with children is key to improving the quality of services. As part of the ongoing progression of the early years quality agenda, it was announced last year that by September 2015 all early years services staff working directly with children in the zero to six years age category would have to have a minimum level 5 qualification on the national qualifications framework in early years care and education, or an equivalent qualification. This requirement will apply to new services from September. Preschool leaders, delivering the free preschool provision to children between the ages of three years and two months to four years and seven months under the early childhood care and education programme, who are currently required to hold a level 5 qualification will have to have a minimum level 6 qualification, or equivalent, by September 2015.
In March this year the launch of a learner fund to assist existing staff working in the child care sector to meet the new requirements was announced. The first and most important objective of the funding is to ensure that all existing staff are in a position to meet the mandatory qualification requirements for their current roles; otherwise it will not be possible for them to continue in these roles after September 2015. This requires that all staff working directly with children in the child care sector hold a minimum level 5 qualification and staff in the role of preschool leader under the early childhood care and education programme hold a level 6 qualification.
The learner fund, which is administered by Pobal with the help of local city and county child care committees, has a total allocation of €3 million for the years 2014 and 2015. This fund has been clearly linked to the introduction of the mandatory qualifications and while other training priorities can be examined at a future date, the priority for now is to use the available funding for staff to achieve the mandatory qualifications if they are to continue in their current roles.
If the Minister does not mind, I will refer to a section of the report from the advisory group on the early childhood strategy. The report was commissioned by the Department. It states the training and professional development of staff is a key indicator of quality in all types of services for young children. High-quality services require professional competence at all levels, including those working directly with children, their managers and supervisors, inspectors and those in advisory and leadership roles as well as those who carry out training. Ensuring high professional standards at all levels of service delivery requires that individuals not only have appropriate initial training but also have access to continual professional development throughout their careers.
The fund is highly restrictive in nature. It will lead to further inconsistencies in standards in the early childhood sector. The Minister has confirmed funding for 2014 and 2015. Will he examine expanding the fund to include all levels of qualifications to ensure people working in the sector can avail of the fund and progress and develop qualifications much further than levels 5 and 6? They should be progressing to level 7 or 8 to ensure we have a real quality professional workforce dealing with early childhood.
I agree with Deputy Troy that the object of the exercise must be to ensure a level of quality. The Deputy speaks of consistency, and there needs to be an element of balance. He is aware a panel of more than 50 training providers has been approved to deliver the training programmes following the completion of the expression of interest process. More than 2, 200 staff have already applied. A difficulty has arisen because some people, who have been working with children for many years, wish to be exempt from the requirements of the new qualifications. As the purpose of upskilling is to boost quality in the best interests of children, it is only possible to do this in a very limited way.
While we have a very high degree of quality, capacity and capability, which is what our children deserve, nevertheless some people, who have been working in the system for many years, for some reason or other are not eager to attain or are not in a position to meet the quality standards. That is why there must be a transition period. I am sure Deputy Troy has received representations in this regard, as I have. We need to ensure an element of balance.
I agree that we need to ensure an element of balance, but I do not think anybody would appreciate if their children in a national school or a secondary school were being taught by somebody who did not have appropriate qualifications. I do not think for one minute we would accept that. The sector has expanded drastically over the previous decade and we are catching up in certain respects. We need to work with the people who are working in this area to ensure they get the required qualifications so that we have a high quality workforce dealing with children in the early childhood years. Report after report confirms that the earliest years in a child's life are the most formative years.
I thank the Deputy.
If people for whatever reason do not want to come up to the minimum standard, we have to work with them to bring them up to the minimum standard.
I thank the Deputy.
If not, then we have to ensure that people working in this area have the necessary qualifications because if they do not have the necessary qualifications-----
We are over time now. I must call the Minister.
-----in any other sector of education - in national schools or secondary schools or third level - they will not maintain their job.
The first and most important objective for me as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is to ensure that there is a level of competency on a mandatory basis in order that all existing staff are in a position to meet an appropriate level of qualification.
75. Deputy Robert Troy asked the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs the issues he views as the constitutional impediments to bringing forward comprehensive tracing and information legislation in the area of adoption; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28009/14]
We are certainly flying through our questions today, which is somewhat unusual.
This is an issue which has come up repeatedly, certainly since I took over as spokesperson for my party in the area of children. The information and tracing legislation is critical legislation that has been promised time and time again. What are the impediments to bringing forward this legislation?
The right to privacy has been firmly established as a constitutional right through a series of legal cases beginning in 1974 with McGee v. the Attorney General, which concerned marital privacy, and culminating in the Kennedy v. Ireland case in 1987 where a general constitutional right to privacy was fully recognised. The right to privacy was also recognised in the IO'T v. B case, a Supreme Court case from 1998. The case concerned two people who were the subject of so-called "informal" adoptions. The majority of the court held that a natural child had an implied constitutional right to know the identity of his or her mother, though this had to be balanced against the right of the natural mother to her privacy.
In considering the right to privacy of a birth mother in the context of the adoption (information and tracing) Bill very many legal and constitutional issues have arisen in the drafting of the legislation.
A particular difficulty has arisen in seeking to reconcile an adopted person’s request for information about his or her identity with the right to privacy of his or her birth parent. While I am anxious to improve the legal status for access to adoption records, my proposals to the Government must reflect the constraints on the Legislature in providing such access if they are not to fall foul of constitutional challenge. The Office of the Attorney General has provided comprehensive legal advice to my Department and has assisted in identifying the constitutional parameters within which policy can be advanced. It is on the basis of that legal advice that I have indicated there is a need to take into consideration the constitutional right to privacy of the birth mother.
My Department is continuing to work on the adoption (information and tracing) Bill and I hope to be in a position to seek Government approval to publish the heads of the Bill as soon as possible. Thereafter, there will be consideration by the all-party Oireachtas Joint Committee on Health and Children, which will provide an opportunity to tease out the relevant considerations in detail and to hear the views of interested parties.
Additional information not given on the floor of the House
I would like to confirm my intention to provide access to as much adoption information as is possible, taking account of relevant legal and constitutional considerations.
I thank the Minister for his comprehensive reply and accept at face value that he wishes to see this issue progress. In the course of our meetings in recent weeks on the whole issue of the mother and baby homes, I have suggested this may be one area in which the State can make good its past failings by bringing forward a system to enable the tens of thousands of people who were adopted through forced adoptions, illegal registrations or whatever and who cannot get access to what is a fundamental basic human right, namely, a right to their identity. Members must somehow manage to bring forward such a system to ensure the right of those people, that is, the right of the child, is not infringed upon as a result of the constitutional right to privacy. The Minister has stated he will bring forward draft heads of the Bill in the near future.
Thank you, Deputy.
With due respect, Members have been listening to that for the last two years and more, albeit not from the Minister himself but from his predecessor. When can Members finally expect to have before them this draft legislation?
Sorry, Deputy, other Members are in the Chamber for questions.
I accept what Deputy Troy has said. However, I again advise him as to the complexity involved and I do not make this point lightly. Earlier, I referred to the Supreme Court case and if Members will indulge me, I must state the advice from the Attorney General indicates that any right to know one's own identity, such as was found in a legal judgment in the case I mentioned earlier, flows from the legal relationship between birth mother and her child. The advice states that the effect of an adoption order is to sever the parent-child relationship, thus eliminating the basis of the right to know. When Deputy Troy stated that in his view, this was a fundamental and basic right, this is the point at which I am unsure whether the legal position is as absolute as he or perhaps most Members would wish. There may not be a constitutional right on the part of any person adopted under the Adoption Act 2010 - or indeed going back to the 1952 Act - to know the identity of his or her birth mother. As Members are aware, the mother has an effective veto on the disclosure of information.
I thank the Minister and will come back to him.
A situation now exists whereby even when both parties forgo their rights, they cannot get access to the required information. Only six weeks ago, I met a lady who came over to visit her adopted son. Both parties are in regular contact with and visit each other but cannot get access to their records, despite both of them agreeing to forgo their rights and being willing to engage with each other.
What interim solution will be introduced to resolve this issue?
Many of the tens of thousands of people to whom I referred are already in contact with their biological mothers but still cannot secure access to their personal information. Nothing brings home this issue more profoundly than the recent revelations and reports concerning mother and baby homes. The State, if it is to acknowledge its past failings, must provide a comprehensive solution to this issue. As a member of the Joint Committee on Health Children, I look forward to the proposed legislation coming before the committee. I ask the Minister to be more specific on the timeframe for the Bill, however, because many people believe the policy being pursued is one of "deny until death".
On the commission of investigation, whose terms of reference I expect to be approved by the Dáil before we rise for the summer, it is not my intention that it will in any way hamper, curtail or delay the process under way between my Department and the Office of the Attorney General in advancing the heads of the Bill for further discussion.
The Deputy referred to an individual case. While it would not be wise or appropriate of me to comment on individual cases of which I do not have the particulars, I suggest the Deputy's constituent contact the Adoption Authority of Ireland and avail of the most helpful service it provides for tracing and assisting in this most personal and sensitive matter.
I am engaged in an ongoing series of meetings with the Attorney General and I am most anxious to ensure the Bill is advanced. However, any legislation in this area may provide only for the retrospective identification of information to be given to an adopted person in very limited circumstances and where the birth mother consents. These are the constitutional parameters within which we are required to work.
76. Deputy Colm Keaveney asked the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs when he will bring forward adoption information and tracing legislation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [28013/14]
The object of the question is to establish when the Minister will introduce adoption information and tracing legislation and if he will make a brief statement on the matter.
My Department is continuing work on the adoption (information and tracing) Bill and I hope to be in a position to seek Government approval to publish heads of the Bill as soon as possible. While I am anxious to improve the legal basis for access to adoption records, proposals to government must reflect the constraints on the Legislature in providing such access if it is not to fall foul of constitutional challenge. The Office of the Attorney General has provided comprehensive legal advice to the Department that has assisted in identifying the constitutional parameters within which the heads of the Bill must be drafted. The most difficult circumstances to address within the proposed legislation are those where the consent of other parties, such as natural mothers, does not exist for the release of information.
It is intended to proceed to finalise legislative proposals in order that I may bring a general scheme and heads of a Bill to the Government as soon as possible. At that stage, I intend to refer the matter to the Joint Committee on Health and Children to allow the issues to be carefully teased out and the views of different interested parties on these important and sensitive matters to be fully considered. I urge people to buy into this process and look forward to this important objective being advanced following due consideration.
As I indicated to Deputy Troy, these are complex, difficult and sensitive personal issues, which have legal implications that go to the heart of the Constitution. I accept that the process has been under way for some time and we have not yet reached a position of some certainty. I assure the Deputy of my anxiety to progress this issue in the next few weeks and to report progress when the Dáil resumes in the autumn.
We must consider establishing some form of holding agency to engage in a form of shuttle diplomacy between the adopted child and biological mother in cases where both parties are prepared to forego their rights. In such circumstances, we must ensure we do not inhibit people from availing of an opportunity to undo the difficulties of the past and to ascertain their identity. People seek this information for many important reasons, including on medical grounds. The State must take whatever action is necessary to introduce, within the parameters set by the Constitution, the most contemporary, advanced and human procedure for allowing people to engage with each other without providing offence to the biological mother or child.
I agree with Deputy Keaveney. I also remind Deputies from all sides of the existence in the Adoption Authority of Ireland of a dedicated section that provides assistance, including appropriate information, records, access, advice and guidance. I urge Deputies, through their constituency clinic network or otherwise, to alert constituents and interested parties to the existence of this unit which, as I am aware from personal experience, provides invaluable advice and guidance to interested parties.
