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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 2014

Vol. 847 No. 2

State Airports (Shannon Group) Bill 2014 [Seanad]: Report Stage

I move amendment No. 1:

In page 19, lines 1 and 2, to delete ", other than a replacement scheme (within the meaning of section 32A(13) (inserted by section 34) of the Act of 1998)".

This is a technical amendment to section 23(8). On Committee Stage last week, my proposal which I explained at the time was to delete the provisions in section 34 relating to the replacement scheme was accepted and approved. However, I also mentioned that the reference in section 23(8) to replacement schemes was overlooked in error and ought to have been deleted. The amendment makes that deletion.

Amendment agreed to.

I move amendment No. 2:

In page 26, line 30, to delete "section 22(3) and substitute "section 22(4)".

This is another consequential, technical amendment. There is an incorrect reference in section 323(2)(b) to section 22(3) of the State Airports Act 2004. That reference should be to section 22(4) of the Act.

Amendment agreed to.

Amendment No. 18 is related to amendments Nos. 3 to 6, inclusive. Amendments Nos. 4 to 16, inclusive, are alternatives to amendment No. 3. Amendments Nos. 5 to 9, inclusive, form a composite proposal, while amendments Nos. 11 and 12 are consequential on amendment No. 10. Therefore, amendments Nos. 3 to 16, inclusive, and amendment No. 18 will be discussed together.

Will the Acting Chairman clarify the speaking arrangements?

Members can speak for as long as they like during their initial contribution and will have two minutes for their second contribution. The proposer of an amendment can contribute a third time.

Is it the same arrangement for each amendment?

In this case, the amendments are grouped-----

Therefore, we have to deal with all of them in our initial contribution.

I move amendment No. 3:

In page 28, to delete lines 20 to 38, to delete pages 29 and 30, and in page 31, to delete lines 1 to 33.

I support the creation of a new scheme, as proposed by Deputy Clare Daly, and the transfer of existing schemes to the new scheme to protect their conditions and standing, including the conditions of deferred members who have not even started to receive a pension.

Amendment No. 15 in my name would provide for an appeals mechanism to ensure deferred members would not be impacted on disproportionately as a result of restructuring and to ensure such a mechanism would be established by regulations which would also outline the manner by which representatives of deferred members might be selected.

Amendment No. 18 deals with the section describing a healthy company. It is proposed to insert a new section 32A in the Air Navigation and Transport (Amendment) Act 1998 which provides that a healthy company "shall not be allowed to close its pension scheme except where the scheme has reached a minimum 90 per cent funding standard". This would be fair. Section 32A(2) describes a healthy company as having positive net revenues or a parent company with positive net revenues. I support the other amendments also.

I have been contacted by constituents and, in particular, one woman about deferred pensions. Her husband is aged 61 years and will draw a pension in four years. He has a pot of €25,000. Under the arrangements proposed, he will be at a disadvantage in a number of years when the pots are put together in the context of how the money will be distributed. Is it clear that deferred members will lose approximately half their pension in four years? If they were to take up their pensions now, they would lose 10%. Will the Minister clarify the position?

I would like to make a few general comments before referring to the amendments. I believe this is the final time Deputy Leo Varadkar will be present as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. I will be sorry because while I may not agree with any of his policies, the way in which he conducts himself and the competence of the Department and his handling of it has been impressive. From that point of view, I will be sorry to see him lose the brief.

This is like praise from Caesar.

No doubt, the Minister will move onwards to higher and better things.

The legislation has been hugely important and stressful for many airport workers. It must be considered in the context of other issues and the backdrop to it, including the uncertainty and the vulnerability of people in facing their retirement years because of the mess that is the Irish airlines superannuation scheme, IASS. We disagree on the roots of it, but a number of issues must be raised again. If we are discussing what is supposed to be a solution that affects people in their retirement, we first have to identify the problem to establish whether we are dealing with it properly. However, we are looking at it the wrong way round. We appreciate, as do many of the pensioners, that on Committee Stage the Minister amended the provision giving the trustees the power to make decisions without the consent of scheme members. There is a little relief that this provision has been deleted, but it is still necessary to delete the section in its entirety, particularly where it impacts on the IASS. I will briefly recap the reasons.

There is a problem with the funding of the scheme, for which the overwhelming responsibility rests with the employers and their inability to adequately fund the scheme during the years and other managerial decisions they took which impacted and put a strain on the scheme, yet the people who are being asked to pay the price are the pensioners and existing workers in these companies. I am not the only one saying this. There is a great deal of evidence to support this position, not least the judgment of Mr. Justice Murphy in the High Court. He deemed the IASS to be a contingent creditor in Aer Lingus when the company tried to move some moneys. That court ruling states Aer Lingus owes the IASS €500 million, with a contingent liability of €475 million. That is only the Aer Lingus element. The company is delivering a much smaller amount to the scheme. Will the Minister comment on the fact that neither of the companies involved is putting money into the IASS? The scheme, therefore, is only receiving money from the pensioners who have retired. They are doing this while experiencing cuts to their benefits. The employers are not putting money into the scheme. They are putting money aside in a separate contingency fund to benefit deferred and active members in the event of future problems. This will be ring-fenced for them and there will be nothing for the pensioners who have retired.

We should consider them because many of them contributed to a pension scheme for 40 years or more and were given a reasonable expectation that they would have a certain standard of living when they retired. The scheme was set by the actuary and the workers' contributions were increased approximately seven times during their working lives, while the employers' contributions were reduced approximately three times during the same period. Notwithstanding this, the proposal is that the pensioners will take a cut of approximately €40 per week initially and again in the new year and there is no fund to mitigate the losses. The money is not being put into the fund but a separate one, despite the fact that the people concerned paid for their full unco-ordinated pensions.

The courts have deemed the employer liable to fund the scheme. The workforce had no choice; membership of the scheme was a condition of their employment. It is a bitter irony that those who worked for the Irish national carrier in the United Kingdom will have all if their benefits ring-fenced and secured and that the commitment made to them will be honoured because of how pensions are dealt with in Britain, while the Irish workers of the same airline will face an insecure future. It is galling for them, given that they had no choice but to make the contributions.

It is an insult that the amendment proposes to give the trustees even more powers. One of the key reasons there is a problem with funding, for which the pensioners, deferred and active members are being asked to pay, is the appalling investment decisions made by the trustees. Although on Committee Stage the Minister said he was not interested in examining the issue and that it was a matter for the Department of Social Protection, it needs to be examined critically. The trustees made some ill-judged, ill-timed and, to put it mildly, peculiar decisions. Some €1.4 billion in assets were sold off as part of a freeze and de-risk strategy at a time when property portfolios were increasing. Essentially, they gave away a prime site on Molesworth Street which within ten months had increased in value by a further €10 million and generated an annual rental income of €6.5 million. One could not get such a portfolio anywhere in Dublin today, yet the IASS divested itself of it for very little and the pensioners are paying the price.

The trustees invested the money from the sale of the assets in an Irish Life fixed income fund. They tied up hundreds of millions of euro with very low yield returns and invested the rest in sovereign bonds also with very low yield returns. There are many questions to be answered about this and if the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport is not interested, the Department of Social Protection should be. Jones Lang LaSalle, property adviser to the IASS, was also the selling agent for the property and the valuation agent for the company which bought it, IPUT. It was also located in one of the buildings of the proposed office redevelopment and, therefore, had a vested interest. Irish Life was the investment adviser to the IASS and one of the trustees was a former long-standing employee of Irish Life, in which the pension scheme invested more than half its funds. There are many questions to be answered. Last year it was reported that the investment adviser, Irish Life, received a weekly management fee of €20,000 which came from airport workers' pension contributions. We must examine this issue because it is a major cause of the problem and it is very risky to include provisions in the legislation linked with it.

The deferred members believed they had no voice in the process and mobilised to give themselves one. Although it is welcome that the pot put aside for them has been increased marginally, it does not solve their problem. As Deputy Dessie Ellis said, it is believed long-standing members of the scheme will lose 50% to 60% of their expected pensions based on the fact that they will lose the unco-ordinated element which represents approximately one third of their expected benefits. Given that the average IASS pension was approximately €30,000, there are major implications for living standards. We must put the responsibility where it lies. In 2001 Aer Lingus employed 6,833 people. Some ten years later it had halved its workforce to 3,491. That came at a cost, which Aer Lingus had not calculated. It benefited from a very healthy and buoyant cash reserve financial position as a result of reducing its wage bill, but it has put the cost onto the pensions scheme. One of the reasons workers were enticed to give up their secure, permanent, pensionable jobs was the prospect that they would receive an unco-ordinated pension. While the company benefited from payroll savings, the employees are paying the price.

Many of the deferred members were very upset by Minister's comments on Second Stage when he said the workers who had been enticed to retire early had received "generous exit packages" negotiated with their trade unions and that they should be taken into account. Workers believe they absolutely should not be taken into account and I agree with them. A severance payment results from managerial decisions in the company at the time and is irrelevant to a person's prospective pension. Taking it into account would have the effect of introducing means testing, which would be very disingenuous because it was an entitlement of the workers based on their contracts of employment. To include it in that way would be unacceptable.

On Committee Stage, the Minister made some comments to justify the inclusion of the new section 34. He said it was necessary to facilitate people who were in the airport companies but not members of a pensions scheme. He also said it was necessary in order to allow people to cease their contributions to the scheme. When I said a rule change could have the same effect, the response was that a rule change would require all 15,000 members to agree and, therefore, would be impractical. However, this does not apply. The trustees and worker groups previously put forward rule changes which were rejected by the employer. Rule changes have happened. In 1975 there was a rule change which resulted in people increasing their contributions.

In 1970, the scheme changed in terms of co-ordination with social welfare payments. At that time, workers were given the option of co-ordinating with the State pension. All new employees had to co-ordinate with the State pension, but if a worker was in employment before 1970, he or she had an option. That was a rule change which was capable of being implemented. It is not necessary, therefore, to secure the agreement of everybody.

In this case, what is obvious is that the companies have chosen not to allow new employees to join the IAS scheme and have opted instead for new pension schemes with lesser entitlements. That is what the issue is all about. It is about a less beneficial pension scheme which is being set up and the defined contribution schemes that are in existence. The companies do not need this Act to establish pension schemes for their workers as they already have new pension schemes in Aer Lingus and, I believe, the DAA. My second amendment allows the companies to do that also should they so choose. It is based on the model of section 9 of the Aer Lingus Act 2004 which provided for the Aer Lingus IPO. I will deal with that further when I discuss my second amendment. The overwhelming reason people still want section 34 deleted is that it creates a detailed legislative provision which potentially interferes with the pension entitlements of 15,000 very worried people. While they appreciate the improvement that was made on Committee Stage, it is not enough. The feeling is that this should still be removed. The deletion of section 34 in its entirety is people's preferred option. We will push for a division on that. People would feel a great deal more comfortable if it was eliminated.

The further amendments in the grouping arise if the proposal to delete section 34 is not accepted and the provision is left as is. There is a concern that the Minister is proposing to delete section 9 from the Aer Lingus Act. While it is true that the provision has never been invoked, it was included at the time of the IPO as a carrot to get the unions and staff to agree to that initiative. Section 9 represented an assurance that their pension scheme would not have lesser benefits. That it never had to be invoked is fine. However, there is no harm in leaving it there. The problem occurred after the IPO when SRT went to the wall. As a consequence of that unanticipated eventuality, hundreds of members of the IAS scheme became unco-ordinated overnight which placed an enormous strain on the pension scheme. It had a major impact. It is not that there is a need for legislation to set up new schemes. What happened subsequent to the IPO was that rather than allow workers to join the IAS scheme, the company opted instead to establish a new defined-contribution schemes with lesser benefits. Keeping section 9 for Aer Lingus is one of the options. What I propose is to rewrite section 9 and to keep it in this Act as an alternative to the Minister's proposal which could be used as a starting point or basis for discussion of the other airport companies. The DAA or the new Shannon company could set up a scheme based on the model that was there. That is the first alternative in the event of the preferred proposal not being agreed. If we are not successful in that alternative, the proposal in the third amendment relates to section 9 itself. Section 9 needs to be maintained in the Aer Lingus Act, notwithstanding that it has not been invoked before. What harm is there in leaving it in place?

One of the reasons there is a problem here is that people feel some of the measures the Minister is seeking to put in place could be implemented by way of a rule change or section 50 order, which would take precedence over a rule change. Legislation trumps section 50. People believe that what is really happening is that this is being done to bypass the trust deeds and rules and empower the creation of a de facto scenario. That is not desirable in the circumstances. There are other ways to achieve what the Minister said he wants to achieve. This is not doing it and I will move amendment No. 4 in the event that amendment No. 3 falls. I will maintain the other one also.

As there will not be an opportunity to do so while the Minister is still in office, I raise a related but separate issue on the national aviation policy which is under review and causing considerable concern to workers in all the airports. The mechanism and the draft the Minister has on display currently allows for the first time the possibility of airlines based outside the EU and the USA being granted access by the Government to pick up passengers in Irish airports and fly them directly to the USA. This is a significant worry. Currently, US and EU airlines operate on the basis of an open skies agreement with reasonable terms and conditions of employment, including minimum wages and certain standards of regulation. Deregulating the market will most definitely undermine the conditions of Irish workers. Will the Minister comment on that while he is here? We have seen very worrying developments in aviation in this regard. The Minister may have seen the feature in The Economist which referred to one of the Pacific carriers which is operating as a very low-cost carrier and crams 440 people into an aircraft type which only carries 220 people when operated by other airlines. A race to the bottom is very much developing there.

Can the Minister confirm whether the US carriers have been in touch with his office to say that if the market is opened to carriers from outside the EU and USA they will pull out of Ireland? That would have a dramatic impact. We have already seen Ethiopian Airlines announce that it will travel to Los Angeles using Dublin as a pick-up point. That would be a major departure in aviation policy. While the policy note set out on the Department's website says the proposal will take into account EU criteria on fair competition, people are very worried that is not going to be enough. In bilateral agreements, Ireland is very well served through connectivity with the USA by Irish and US airlines and it would be a retrograde step if we were to open it up any further. I would appreciate the Minister's comments on that.

The Minister will appreciate from what he has heard on Committee Stage and, so far, Report Stage that there is a general view that the main provisions of the Bill as they relate to the establishment of Shannon Airport as an independent entity and the bringing together of the parts of what was SFADCO are accepted and appropriate. That initiative is receiving almost unanimous support in the House. The issue with which we all seem to have a problem on the Opposition benches, and I suspect among some on the backbenches, is the way the Minister is introducing legislation to deal with the funds of a private pension scheme.

It is the first time the Government has sought to legislate to deal with a private pension fund. I appeal on Report Stage, as I have done on Committee Stage, that section 34 be removed, which would take away the difficulties we have talked about and allow it to be addressed in a more comprehensive manner at an appropriate time when agreement is reached between all parties in the pension debacle. With the protracted nature of the discussions on the difficulties in respect of pensions, I find it difficult to understand why it is imperative to put in place at this stage a legislative framework that seeks to second guess the outcome of discussions. The issue has been going on for a long time and I think a little longer could be taken to await an appropriate outcome before dealing with legislative issues that arise.

Up to the Social Welfare Act 2009, deferred members had the same protection as pensioners in payment, meaning that they could not have their entitlements varied by a section 50 order. That was reasonable when schemes were all in surplus. The then Minister changed the rule in May 2009 and removed all protection for deferred members. This was legitimately done with a view to active and deferred members sharing the load where deficits were required to be shared between a large group of members. What was not foreseen was that the IASS employers would use the complete absence of any protection for deferred members as a weapon whereby they have all but excluded the deferred members from the funds to be provided to solve this crisis. Putting all the funds outside the IASS was the mechanism by which they could achieve this. We believe it was assumed by the employers that deferred members would not become a political force and that the deal would be done by the time they realised what was happening.

The expert panel has exacerbated the situation and now, in the case of Aer Lingus, 2, 570 active members are sharing €147 million while 3,687 deferred members are sharing €34 million. This is the reality despite the spin that the companies are putting on the narrative. It appears, from the DAA and Aer Lingus proposals for deferred members, that using a "set of principles" agreed with the expert panel, much of the additional funds will be paid to deferred members who have lower service as their deferred pensions will fall below €12,000 and the set of principles favours these members. The result is that longer serving members are still losing up to 50% to 60% of their expected pension. By any calculation, that is an enormous burden for any pensioner to have to carry.

They are losing the unco-ordinated provision, which represents approximately one third of the expected benefit for members on an average IASS pension of €30,000 to €40,000. They are also losing revaluation, which accumulates to 25% per ten years of deferment, and a further 20% of the resultant figure. The DAA and Aer Lingus proposals for deferred members, based on the expert panel principles, will only contribute a lump sum to the direct contribution fund, which has the potential to make up 10% of the 20% cut proposed by the IASS trustees. There is no compensation for the loss of revaluation and unco-ordination. When the Minister and others say that it is a 20% cut, this should be corrected as untrue. I ask him to do so when he addresses this.

Loss of unco-ordination is a huge issue for deferred members. I have spoken to many of them. Under the rules of the IASS, members who left service as deferred members were unco-ordinated, which meant that they did not suffer a deduction from their IASS pension for the State pension. This is a rule that the trustees or employers could have changed at any time but chose not to for their own reasons. Both Aer Lingus and the DAA used this rule to entice staff to take voluntary redundancy through the 2000s in particular. We are all aware of the various proposals and plans put in place to make Aer Lingus a viable entity towards partial privatisation. People accepted pay restraint during that period and others left the company under various plans, believing there was no future for them in the company. They accepted the proposals in the real expectation that they would have a reasonable pension on reaching retirement age. Sadly, that is now gone, a situation enshrined in the legislation we are enacting.

Staff taking voluntary redundancy created huge savings for both companies. Members made life-changing decisions based on this rule and now find themselves in a position that their IASS pensions will be reduced at aged 65 years, even though some of the younger deferred members will not receive the State pension until 66, 67 or 68 years.

The Social Welfare Act 2013 removed full protection from pensioners in payment and decreed that their pensions could be cut by 10% over €12,000 and 20% over €60,000. In the case of IASS pensioners, this forced cut equates to them refunding approximately €110 million back into the IASS at a time when the employers have put not one cent into the scheme. I do not intend to revisit the ground covered by Deputy Clare Daly. The deferred members group lobbied hard to have the Social Welfare Act 2013 include some protection for deferred members and suggested the cuts applied to pensioners should also apply to deferred members but, unfortunately, they were unsuccessful, notwithstanding the protestation of the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection about her desire to rule with the head and the heart rather than with one separated from the other. With her increased powers, she will have the opportunity of the next social welfare Bill to address the expectation that rested in the minds of the deferred pensioners.

The only alternative is to force the employers and the trustees to treat deferred members proportionately. In the case of Aer Lingus, when active members were getting €80 million and deferred members €30 million in the initial proposals of December 2012, Aer Lingus contended that the difference was cost stabilisation but it was never forced to prove this point. Estimates at the time were that active members were getting €27 million in cost stabilisation.

The Labour Court recommendations of 13 January and 13 May reduced cost stabilisation by approximately €8 million to approximately €19 million and increased the funds for active members from €80 million to €110 million. These changes blew out of the water the argument that cost stabilisation represented the difference in funds between active members and deferred members but Aer Lingus continues with the same narrative. As the employers had stated at the outset of negotiations that they recognised the trustees must act in the best interest and have regard to all categories, the deferred members group fully believed this discrepancy would be rectified either by the employers allocating more funds to deferred members, as was their due, or the trustees reallocating benefits within the IASS to ensure proportionate benefit with active members. The employers did nothing and neither did the trustees.

I support the call of Deputy Clare Daly for an investigation into the way the fund was managed. Over the past year, we have seen a level of growth in pension funds, particularly Irish managed funds, that is in line with significant increases in commercial property prices in this city, where a considerable amount of the funds were linked. Deputy Clare Daly outlined the sell-off of valuable properties as part of the necessity or desire to turn them into cash at a time when they are growing rapidly. That warrants further investigation but I do not know whether it falls within the remit of the Minister. I assume it does not but it certainly falls within the remit of the Government to address this. Many members are deeply confused about the way in which their pension pot has been managed in recent times. It does not appear that advice is being given independently. There is a perception that there is a connection between advisers and people involved in other activities in respect of the disposal of assets. I do not want to name any particular companies but, going back to the banking crisis, one can see a similarity in auditors, accountants and consultants. They are all part of the same large group, or a small cohort, of advisers. The age-old indication that a Chinese wall has been built between various sections lends a perception in the minds of the people greatly affected by these decisions that the Chinese wall is anything but and that there is a significant breach in the perimeter.

For that reason, it is appropriate for the Minister to pass some comment on this debacle.

I seek the advice of the Chair on amendment No. 17.

It is not part of this grouping and will be dealt with separately.

Given that it has been ruled out of order, will I have an opportunity to discuss it when we come to it?

Therefore, in the context of this grouping, I will make some comments about the pension entitlements of a number of employees who in the late 1960s transferred from the Civil Service to the companies at Shannon and Cork Airports. They did so on the clear understanding that their terms and conditions, including their pension entitlements, would be no worse as a result of the transfer to the new companies than if they had stayed in the Civil Service. Frankly, that did not happen and legislation to formalise the transfer was not produced until 1998. Notwithstanding the comments that had been made and the assurances that had been given in this House during the 1970s and by successive Governments - Ministers had indicated that the terms, conditions and pension entitlements would be no different - the legislation enshrined in 1998 provided no such legislative basis for the maintenance of these pension entitlements. The employees now find themselves significantly worse off. The assurances they had been given did not materialise in the legislation of 1998, although this should have happened. It was not deemed appropriate to provide for this in legislation at the time because all pension funds were operating from a stronger position. Now, when the employees who transferred retire and will compare their benefits with those of people of the same grade and with the same pay and general conditions who remained in the Civil Service, they will find they only have a pension of approximately €12,000 in comparison to a pension of approximately €24,000 for those who remained in the Civil Service. This is a huge discrepancy. Many of the employees who transferred now find it enormously difficult to read the record of the House and see the assurances given in good faith on behalf of the then Government that their pensions would not be any worse than if they had remained in the Civil Service.

I know successive Ministers and departmental officials have looked at this issue. I know, too, that the amendment I have proposed in this regard is not acceptable because it would place a potential charge on the State, but this does not get away from the fact that successive Governments have always acted in good faith on commitments given by previous Administrations. Sadly, Members on this side who were in government in the past failed to do this. I appeal to the Minister, perhaps in his final hours as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport - I wish him well in what may emerge over the course of the afternoon-----

I know nothing.

I am sure of that. Other Ministers have sought to address issues before they depart from office. Some have appointed political acquaintances, people of considerable note, to State boards. If these are the Minister's final hours in the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, will he look at making a commitment to this small group who accepted in good faith the word of previous holders of his office and previous Ministers of State in response to questions raised at the time? Will he commit to addressing this legacy issue? I understand there are no more than about 50 people to whom this benefit would accrue. While I recognise my amendment will not be accepted and the reason for this, I do not accept that this is an issue that cannot be addressed. I, therefore, appeal to the Minister to address it in the course of his deliberations which may turn out to be longer than I suspect.

As an Independent Deputy, I endorse the contributions made by Deputies Clare Daly and Timmy Dooley on the two issues that are prominent in correspondence I receive in my office, one of which is the anti-competitive nature of the operations of some non-EU and non-USA carriers which could jeopardise having a fair and level playing field in the conditions that operate and obtain. There is no doubt but that some airlines from outside the European Union and the USA are subvented by extremely wealthy individuals and groups in countries in which there are low wages and the presence of such a competitor would severely undermine the principles of fair competition for existing carriers. I ask the Minister to take this into consideration.

The other matter concerns pensions. It is appalling that the people who in good faith took up employment during the years and placed their trust in the term, "trustees of pension funds", now find themselves facing massive differentials between active and deferred pensioners despite having served many years with their employer. It is patently wrong that the law seems to allow for these differentials and the Minister must do whatever it takes to deal with the matter. He should apply the standards of fairness and openness. Otherwise, the area of pensions will becomes like a black whole - a voodoo land. This is not right in a society in which fairness is valued by all citizens.

I thank Deputy Clare Daly for her kind and gracious words regarding my approach as Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport. I know that we do not see eye to eye on much, but I acknowledge that she is sincere in her approach and motivation on this and other transport issues.

The 15 amendments in this grouping relate to the superannuation provisions contained in the Bill. Half of them are technical or drafting amendments which I have tabled. I would like to address the more substantial amendments together.

Four of the amendments tabled, amendments Nos. 3, 15, 16 and 18, are similar to amendments tabled on Committee Stage. Amendments Nos. 3 and 16 relate to deleting or partially deleting section 34 from the Bill. The two amendments proposed by Deputy Dessie Ellis, Nos. 15 and 18, concern an appeals mechanism for deferred members of the IAS scheme and a statutory bar on closing pension schemes which have not reached the minimum 90% funding standard. My position on these amendments has not changed and I will not be accepting them.

On the proposed appeals mechanism, it remains the position that any provision along these lines is a matter for national pensions policy. It is not appropriate to consider the issue in isolation, purely in the context of the IAS scheme. There are already two independent appeals mechanisms available to members of any pension scheme, namely, the Pensions Ombudsman and the courts.

On the question of statutorily preventing the closure of the IAS scheme, unless and until it reaches a minimum figure of 90% of the minimum funding standard, as I made clear on Committee Stage and in the Seanad, I cannot impose or prescribe solutions to the current difficulties in the scheme. If accepted, the amendment would add another constraint to what is already a highly complex and inflexible pensions scheme. It also carries the implication that the scheme could continue indefinitely, with an unresolved substantial deficit, in a manner that would be inconsistent with the Pensions Act 1990. That is not tenable.

Debate adjourned.
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