Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Jul 2014

Vol. 847 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

There is an air of disbelief in both the country and the city about the fact what would have been a major economic project in its own right will not be proceeding. I refer to the cancellation of the five Garth Brooks concerts. It is estimated that this will cost the city €50 million at a minimum. However, many people believe that the financial hit to the economy will be far greater. Some 70,000 ticket holders were due to travel here from abroad to attend the concerts. That would have been a huge fillip for the tourism industry. A total of 400,000 fans will be obliged to have their tickets refunded and there is also the question of ancillary booking fees. In addition, some 200,000 hotel bookings will be disrupted. This is an exceptional economic setback by any yardstick. We must also consider the reputational damage that has been done in terms of the capacity of the country and the city to host major events. Part of our tourism strategy has been to make Ireland an attractive location for significant events of this nature.

The Taoiseach stated in Berlin last week that he hoped everyone involved could work something out. All three of the One Direction concerts held at Croke Park recently passed without incident. It appears that at no stage were the promoters or the GAA informed that licences would not be granted for all five Garth Brooks concerts. There was talk about major restrictions, hurdles to be traversed and significant issues relating to transportation and security. However, at no stage was a significant indication given that the licences would not be granted. Surely the Government should have intervened at some point in respect of this debacle. Either the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government or the Minister for Tourism, Transport and Sport should have become involved, particularly in light of the enormity of the event and the implications relating to its cancellation. Why did the Government not intervene in a hands-on way? Goodwill alone is not enough. Where there is a will, there is a way out of these situations.

Will the Taoiseach examine the possibility of allocating Government time in order that the House might consider the legislation which Deputy Dooley has drafted and which would provide a mechanism to facilitate appeals and to allow for reviews by the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government? I am of the view that the Opposition would support the Government were it to facilitate legislation of that kind, particularly in light of the significant economic implications involved. Many hoteliers, restaurant owners and young people seeking work simply cannot believe that the country can almost nonchalantly say "We do not really need that".

A Deputy

Get rid of Keegan.

The Taoiseach

I am as disappointed as anyone else that Ireland has lost this major musical event involving an international artist whose appeal is global in many respects. It is true to say that the loss to the economy will be of the order of €50 million, that 400,000 fans were due to turn up, that 70,000 of those were due to travel here from abroad and that 200,000 bookings were made in respect of B&Bs, guesthouses, hotels and so on. I have received a deluge of messages from people who bought tickets and who had made arrangements in respect of making a day of it with their families or friends. Of course, the money they paid out will now be refunded.

The Deputy inquired as to why the Government did not intervene.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is supposed to be governing.

The Taoiseach

Dublin City Council made its decision in accordance with current planning regulations. Were the Government to have stepped in and said that three One Direction concerts had already been held and that the five involving another artist fell outside the agreed parameters, it would certainly have been accused of coming the heavy.

Major acts have been involved in huge outdoor concerts at locations throughout the country, including Páirc Uí Chaoimh, Semple Stadium, Limerick, Kilkenny and the RDS and Croke Park in Dublin, on previous occasions and no difficulties or hitches arose. There is a need to consider how the process operates. I have asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to examine the operational regulations. These certainly need to be considered in the context of the timeline requirements for the submission of applications by event organisers, the consideration of such applications by the relevant planning authority in advance of a series of events or concerts taking place and the absence of a specific appeals mechanism regarding decisions made in respect of event licences. Of course, judicial review is an option which can be considered in the latter context. These three issues must be examined in respect of Croke Park.

I have seen Deputy Dooley's Bill and I accept that it is genuine in nature. As the Deputy stated yesterday, the Government can consider it and make any changes it considers necessary. I will absolutely examine the legislation which has been brought forward. In the context of the conversation I had with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government about the relevant regulations, let us see if there is something positive Government can do in order that this cannot happen again. The cancellation of this event is a major loss to the country. It will have an impact on the goodwill of all those fans of Garth Brooks, not to mention the hard economic impact it will have on so many others. It is a mess. There is an issue here to which consideration must be given. That is why the Government did not intervene. Dublin City Council made its decision based on the existing planning regulations. I will examine Deputy Dooley's Bill in order to discover whether it might be used in some form or other to allow the Government to consider the three points to which I refer.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach stated yesterday that this matter was badly handled and that what has happened is a shock to the system. The Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Deenihan, said it is a major embarrassment. Other Ministers have made similar comments. What most people are asking is what is going to be done now. Can it be rescued in any shape or form?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Today.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I welcome the fact the Taoiseach stated that he will examine Deputy Dooley's legislation. However, is that for the long term or will it be done right now?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Here and now.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The legislation is specifically tailored to deal with the issue of the cancelled concerts immediately because it would facilitate a review mechanism in respect of the decision taken by Dublin City Council regarding the licence application relating to the Garth Brooks concerts. The legislation could have immediate application.

This week the guillotine is being applied to a number of Bills and we have co-operated with the Government in that regard. It is not beyond the capacity of the Oireachtas to pass emergency legislation, if necessary, and also to give a clear signal that, in view of our current financial circumstances, we need to engage with major economic projects of this kind in a hands-on way. In that context, I understand there were no face-to-face meetings with residents who live near Croke Park. Certain news media outlets have reported that some objections to the concerts were forged. I am not saying that all of them were because people obviously lodged legitimate objections. I understand that some of the negotiations which took place gave rise to the significant concessions of no concerts being held at the venue next year. That would have been a major win for the residents who had objections to this series of concerts. Meaningful efforts were made by some actors in the process in terms of trying to mediate a solution. Ultimately, there is no point in people wringing their hands and saying that what has happened is both terrible and a great embarrassment.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Efforts should be made to retrieve the situation.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is anyone going to take action and can the situation be retrieved or rescued?

Deputy Peter Mathews

The Government should be businesslike about it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I request that the Government consider the legislation that has been put forward.

We would support its passage in this House and get some advice on it. We accept that it is open to amendment and change.

The Taoiseach

When this problem arose the controversy began and it probably will not end now; there may well be court implications. Several people made valid suggestions from a common-sense point of view on how this might be sorted out - in particular, the chairman of the Labour Relations Commission, Kieran Mulvey, who went to considerable lengths to explain what they could do to make this happen and give the fans the opportunity to see an artist in whom they have a particular interest.

Deputy Martin knows the position. Let us suppose the Government decided to intervene with emergency legislation. First of all, we would be accused of doing down the rights of residents, who have rights, of course. Second, we would be accused of interfering with a planning process that the city council has a duty and a responsibility to deal with. That is why it is necessary to look at these issues.

Deputy Martin asked whether this was for the immediate term. Even if we took Deputy Dooley's proposition and his Bill, we would still be bound to have a period of public consultation. It is not a case of simply introducing emergency legislation through the Dáil tomorrow. On an issue such as this, in which such large numbers are involved, we need to have a process of public consultation to get it right. I take the Deputy's best effort but in respect of the timeline, the decision on applications by the relevant planning authority and an appeals mechanism, we need to put in place a system that actually works.

In this country we have been renowned for the reception and welcome we give to so many major outdoor events. They have been going on for years and have been planned without any great difficulties other than the usual failings whereby people might get into trouble on the fringes of concerts. We have had them in major GAA stadiums and other locations throughout the country. They have all been planned and all have followed a process and were exceptionally successful. In this case, there were three events earlier in the year and planning for three further events was granted. That was unacceptable to the artist, who wanted five. Obviously, the costs involved in these things are enormous. We will give attention to Deputy Dooley's observations and look at the specific issues, but it is not for decision this week.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They are too busy with the reshuffle.

The Taoiseach

It is a case of putting in place a process that will work, such that, in the case involving Croke Park, this kind of problem will not arise again. I am very disappointed that it has not happened and that it will not happen now. It is a bitter economic lesson to have learned. However, there are processes that have to be put in place. They work everywhere else and they should work here as well.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Yesterday, I raised with the Taoiseach serious issues of public interest in respect of the integrity of the planning process and the responsibility of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to uphold the integrity of that process. There are major allegations of planning irregularities in various parts of the State, which the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Phil Hogan, is fully aware of but which he has not dealt with. For example, the Minister has been made aware of allegations relating to County Wicklow. These include allegations that An Bord Pleanála upheld objections to a major planning proposal in the county despite the fact that all objections to the development had been withdrawn. The person who authorised this inexplicable-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy; we cannot make allegations here. Matters of fact are a different thing. This is not a court of law. We must be careful. Please do not mention names or locations that could identify issues.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, for that advice. They include allegations that An Bord Pleanála upheld objections to a major planning proposal in the county, a matter of fact, despite all objections to the development having been withdrawn, a matter of fact. The person who authorised this inexplicable decision was appointed deputy chairperson of An Bord Pleanála by the Minister, Deputy Hogan, despite obvious and serious conflict of interest issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy. You cannot make allegations of this type in the House.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is a matter of fact.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are making an allegation. You are connecting the appointment of someone to an important position with an allegation of wrongdoing, and we cannot do that in the Chamber. Standing Orders do not allow it.

Deputy Gerry Adams

This is a matter of fact.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a matter of fact if it is an allegation.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The allegation is that there might be a conflict of interest. It is a matter of fact that this person was appointed by the Minister, Deputy Hogan, and that he cleared these decisions. Those are matters of fact.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, but you are implying that there is something improper happening through the appointment of someone to an important position and that the person is involved in some wrongdoing. We cannot have that in this Chamber.

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is my responsibility to raise issues of concern.

An Ceann Comhairle

Of course it is your responsibility and there are various ways of doing that, but not in the public domain on an issue of such seriousness.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I will bear your advice in mind, a Cheann Comhairle, as I put my question to the Taoiseach. Did officials in the Department of the Taoiseach or the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government question the appointment of the deputy chairperson in the light of the possibility of a conflict of interest due to his former position with RPS, a private consultancy firm?

Yesterday, the Taoiseach made reference to positions on State boards having to be publicly advertised. Could the Taoiseach clarify this for the Dáil? Is the Taoiseach not aware that the position of deputy chairperson of An Bord Pleanála was not advertised? That begs a response from the Taoiseach. Does the Taoiseach agree that a situation whereby the deputy chairperson of An Bord Pleanála is overseeing planning applications drawn up by his former employees may represent a conflict of interest?

Yesterday I asked the Taoiseach to facilitate the scrutiny by the Dáil of proposed nominees for the post of European Commissioner. The Taoiseach refused to answer the question. It is a perfectly reasonable request. As the Taoiseach famously said, Paddy needs to know. Paddy and Patricia need to know. I believe the Dáil has a responsibility to scrutinise any of these nominees and I call on the Taoiseach to facilitate such a process.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams has come to the House this morning and made specific allegations against someone who does a job for an important independent statutory element of our democracy, An Bord Pleanála. I do not think I have ever been in contact with An Bord Pleanála over the years other than to inquire when a decision might be made, and seldom at that. Deputy Adams is making an allegation against someone who has been appointed to an important position. He doubts whether that person is capable of doing his job objectively. He is insinuating in the Chamber this morning that this person is in some way conflicted by the work that he does. I do not think that is very good from Deputy Adams's point of view.

Anyone is entitled to lodge or withdraw an objection. I do not know the details of the case Deputy Adams has raised but I am assured that the Minister of State responsible, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is dealing with this specific matter. I imagine that if Deputy Adams wishes to put down a question to her, she will answer it for him.

It is a fact that when personnel are being appointed to membership of boards, people are entitled to apply or make expressions of interest through the publicjobs.ie website in respect of the experience they might bring to a particular position or otherwise. That does not confine a Minister to choosing from those who apply in that fashion. Ministers can choose membership of boards from outside specific applications that are made. This Government is the first to have introduced a requirement that the chairpersons of State bodies and boards of importance will appear before the relevant Oireachtas committees to explain and answer their questions in regard to the experience or expertise they might bring to any particular board.

I imagine if someone from the House were to be nominated for consideration to be appointed as a European Commissioner, that person would have no problem at all in going before the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs to discuss the matter. As I said to Deputy Adams yesterday, if someone from the House were to be nominated for the post of European Commissioner, there is a requirement that such a person would go before the full European Parliament for a three- or four-hour discussion and questioning process about their credentials for the job for which they have been nominated by a particular country. That applies in all cases.

I hope that the Deputy understands that the allegations he makes against an individual whom I do not know are very serious. Let me repeat for him again that the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is dealing with the particular case that the Deputy mentioned in Wicklow.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Of course I am aware that they are serious. That is why I raised them. However, they are not serious enough for the Taoiseach. I asked him to clarify whether he was aware of any possible conflict of interest or whether it had been raised with him, but he did not answer. I asked him to clarify his reference yesterday to positions on State boards needing to be publicly advertised, but he did not answer that. I asked him whether he knew that the position of deputy chairperson of An Bord Pleanála had not been advertised, but he did not answer.

The Mahon tribunal unveiled the reality of a decade of planning corruption. The Government has not implemented the recommendations of that tribunal. The Taoiseach cannot, as he does in the House, portray planning corruption as a Fianna Fáil problem when his Government does not act to root it out. I raise these issues not to cast aspersions on anyone, but because it is part of my public duty as a Teachta Dála to raise them in a considered, reasonable and logical way.

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government acted to close down scrutiny of the planning process when he was appointed. One of his first acts was to shut down the inquiry initiated by his predecessor, Mr. John Gormley.

An Ceann Comhairle

Question, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Subsequently, an internal review was set up by the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government and presented as an alternative to that inquiry. It claimed that there had been no wrongdoing, but that finding had to be set aside when a senior planner, Mr. Gerard Convie, provided evidence to the High Court, which quashed the review's section on Donegal and apologised to Mr. Convie. The Taoiseach claims he is sure-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I am sorry, but the Deputy is over time. Will he ask his supplementary question?

Deputy Gerry Adams

I will do it now. The Taoiseach claims he is sure that the Minister of State, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, is dealing with this issue. She announced an independent assessment of these practices more than a year ago. I asked the Taoiseach yesterday whether we would have sight of that report before the recess. He stated that he would get back to me, but he did not. Will he tell the Dáil not that he is sure that she is dealing with the assessment, but when the report will be published and will we have sight of it?

I will revert to my original question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you. We are over time.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Taoiseach facilitate a process in this Chamber or at a committee under which we can scrutinise the proposed nominees?

The Taoiseach

I am not aware of a conflict of interest. I hope that answers the Deputy's question - the answer is "No". All of the positions on An Bord Pleanála were publicly advertised. The answer to that is "Yes". That is clear.

Deputy Gerry Adams

This one was not.

The Taoiseach

The Government will legislate very shortly for NewERA, which is the entity charged with the Government's shareholding in semi-State companies and advising Ministers on appointments to boards of semi-States. In order to encourage public participation here and to have the best talent available, the process of public expressions of interest is available to the public, and many do apply. Obviously, the range of experience they offer is enormous. Ministers do not need to be confined to the applications that are received in that regard.

As I said, everybody who is appointed to a chair of a State board has to come before the Oireachtas committee and answer for his or her experience. As I said, if somebody from the House is nominated for consideration for appointment to the European Commission, I am quite sure he or she would have no difficulty in going before the European affairs committee.

An allegation was made to me yesterday about a major waste dump outside Derry, which apparently has generated an income of approximately £15 million. An allegation was made as to where that money went. I said: "I do not believe it." Maybe allegations that Deputy Adams makes here or that are made to me or to anybody else sometimes are very far removed from the facts and from the truth.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Most of the political focus of recent weeks has been on the Cabinet reshuffle, who will be dropped and who will be promoted-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It will be the end of the Minister, Deputy Rabbitte.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

-----but we all know that the changes will mean nothing if they do not make a serious difference in people's lives, not least in terms of health care. The recent focus on failures in that sector has been on the medical card fiasco, but there are other system failures and they do not all have to do with money.

I wish to highlight the plight of Shay and Finn Guihen, who were born with the rare Pfeiffer syndrome and whose parents, Denise and Dermot, are in the Gallery. I have given the Taoiseach a background note on the case. One year ago, a 24-seven home care package was agreed that enabled the then 18 month old twins to leave Temple Street hospital for home last October. Their care was outsourced to a nursing agency and, from the first week, there were problems. It was hit or miss and resulted in the twins being admitted to the LauraLynn Children's Hospice for eight weeks until a care package could be provided. Five months later, there is still no sight of a care package and the parents have not been included in the process in any meaningful way.

Every day, this couple faces the joy and sorrow of being these two boys' parents. The joy is found in how their parents have been astonished by their progress - they can see and hear, have normal intelligence, clap their hands, wave and pick out their favourite toys. These little guys have between them survived 21 operations to date. They look different, they have shunts in their brains and their breathing is being aided by tracheostomies. The parents' sorrow stems from the fact that their children's lives will be limited. While there is a limit on the time they live, there should not and must not be a limit on the quality of their lives. It is a nightmare for any parent to face the prospect of losing a child, but Denise and Dermot are facing the prospect of losing both of theirs.

This is a question of the management and control of the home care package. It cannot be hit or miss. There must be continuity of care. This is not an issue of money, but of how the process is managed for these two little kids. Will the Taoiseach intervene to try to get a solution so that they can go home to where they are happiest? Will he undertake to review home care packages? Flexibility is great in some cases, but in others it is not and continuity of care is required in this case. If necessary, a few people could be recruited to provide that service, which is critical to the lives of a small number.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Catherine Murphy for giving an indication of this particular case. I would like to say that I think it must be incredibly difficult for Denise and Dermot, the parents of Finn and Shay, to have to live with the stress of what is involved here. I understand that these little boys are two and a half years of age, both have tracheostomies, both have fabulous personalities and both are in a palliative care unit with LauraLynn. It was to be for two months - it has been for five.

As the Deputy points out, it is about ensuring that there is a sustainable home care package put together for Shay and for Finn. As she also points out, it is not about money. As I understand it, the care that was being given to Finn and to Shay while at home was done by particular agency workers. The HSE is very familiar with this case. It is the most complex case that it has come across in a very long time.

It is a case now of working with a different agency to see if it is possible to put together a proper, sustainable home care package so that the two little boys can have the best of their personalities being expressed, their activity levels can be maintained and also, in respect of Denise and Dermot, the lifestyle around that is not one that has an overbearing stress load on it. I understand that the HSE is willing to meet with Denise and Dermot to discuss this. I would like to see that, while we have Shay and Finn with us, the best possible sustainable home care package can be put in place.

I thank the Deputy for bringing this case to my attention. We will keep a close eye on this, together with Denise, Dermot and the HSE, with particular focus on little Shay and little Finn. I hope the outcome can be the very best for two little boys who need nothing but the best.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I have talked to the HSE and the other agencies to see what solutions can be put in place. The big difficulty is that the great strength that is the flexibility of agency provision for some is the greatest weakness in this case. With a tracheotomy, for example, if something goes wrong, one literally has three minutes to change it. It is a life or death situation. We cannot have a situation where it is hit and miss; there must be continuity of care. Denise and Dermot are two people but my concern is that there is a small number of other families who do not want to rock the boat about the care provision and the continuity of care.

I reiterate the point that this home care package needs to be reconsidered. I do not believe it is about money, rather it is about how the service is provided. That is the aspect of it that must be examined if we are not to find more families presenting with this type of very complex and difficult situation. I ask the Taoiseach to examine that continuity of care in the context of a review of the home care packages. This cannot be delivered on an agency basis because sometimes outsourcing is also about outsourcing responsibility. It is at that point that the change needs to be made.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy made the point about the very short timespan that is available if some little incident happens in regard to these two little boys, therefore, 24-hour absolute care and monitoring is required here. That is the nature of the care process that needs to be put in place. I have correspondence from Deputy Lawlor who has been involved in this case as well and if the Deputy wishes, after this engagement I would like to say hello to Denise and Dermot, Deputy Lawlor and Deputy Murphy to see can we assure people that what we want here is the very best level of care for Finn and for Shay. It must be so stressful for parents to have to see two bubbly little boys with fabulous personalities having to face the challenge that they face. I was in a house further west recently where there are three children facing a different challenge which is also very serious and the stress level in that household is very difficult. I agree that it is not just about an agency, that it is about the people who can provide that 24-hour care. That is where the home care package needs to be. I will obviously contact the Minister for Health and the HSE about the general home care packages in this case, and let us say hello after this engagement is over.