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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Sep 2014

Vol. 850 No. 1

Priority Questions

Irish Water Establishment

Barry Cowen

Question:

1. Deputy Barry Cowen asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the level of spending on set-up costs for Irish Water that was signed off on 22 October 2013; the information that was given to the Economic Management Council on the level of consultancy fees; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34559/14]

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's office for facilitating this. I congratulate the Minister and Minister of State on their new roles.

It is a very youthful team.

We cannot argue with that. As both the Minister and the Minister of State are very honest, straight-talking politicians, I hope they can level with the public in regard to the level of spending on the set-up of Irish Water that was signed off on 22 October 2013 and the information that was given to the Economic Management Council on the level of consultancy fees. I hope they can inform the public, who will receive their first water bills in the next number of weeks, as to the level of knowledge the Minister's predecessor and the Economic Management Council had on 22 October 2013.

In advance of the enactment of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013, the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, did not have full economic regulatory powers in regard to the water sector, but did have powers to advise the Minister. In that context, on 22 October 2013, my predecessor approved a request from the Department to seek advice from CER on new costs arising in the establishment of Irish Water. The purpose in seeking this advice was to ensure that the costs were of benefit to customers in the long term and that forecast expenditure was reasonable. In regard to the establishment costs, the request included broad headings for expenditure of €150 million plus a contingency of €31 million, but did not distinguish between in-house and external provision. The Deputy will appreciate that, for Cabinet confidentiality reasons, I cannot divulge details of discussions at the Economic Management Council, which has the status of a Cabinet committee.

The establishment of Irish Water is an integral component of the Government’s water sector reform strategy and involves major organisational change. The establishment of a high-performance utility will lead to lower costs and improved services in the future, providing much better outcomes for customers and the environment. There is a need to incur up-front costs in order to secure these benefits. The CER has reviewed the establishment costs and in its proposals, published in July 2014, it has indicated that it proposes to allow Irish Water the vast bulk - some €172.8 million - of the costs proposed.

It has become common knowledge that on 22 October, despite what he has said, the Minister's predecessor was fully aware of the set-up costs for Irish Water to the tune of €180 million. Does the Minister think that figure is fair? He seems to suggest it is.

In County Roscommon, more than 30,000 households are on a boil-water notice and there is not the required level of investment in infrastructure to ensure that people's basic right to have running water in their homes is fulfilled. Now the Minister seems to think that expenditure in the region of €180 million is okay, and €86 million out of that €180 million is to be spent on consultancy fees.

I certainly do not think this is a fair figure to be used in the setting up of Irish Water.

I want to point out to the Deputy that there are legacy issues relating to the setting up of Irish Water. The Deputy's party was in government long enough to know what they are. One of these legacy issues is the fact that the people of Roscommon do not have a water service that is appropriate. It is disgraceful that this was left the length of time that it was and that there was no investment to ensure that people had the water services they deserved.

The establishment costs of Irish Water have been examined by the CER, which assessed them in great detail. The CER permitted an allocation of €172.8 million and said that it felt €8 million was not required, so the vast bulk of the establishment costs were accepted. One must also look at it in comparative terms relating to the setting up of a utility of this scale and size. If one looks at it in a comparative context involving other jurisdictions, one will see that the actual establishment costs are on a par with those incurred in other jurisdictions, or in some cases better. I must come back to the decision by the CER relating to its estimate of the establishment costs. The CER has accepted that €172.8 million is the requirement, and if that is its judgment I have no reason to doubt it.

Does Deputy Troy wish to ask a further supplementary question?

So the Minister is saying that he agrees with the assessment? The Minister talks about legacy issues-----

The CER is an independent regulator.

Why then did his predecessor feel the need to mislead a committee in November 2012 and say that the set-up costs would be €10 million? When he appeared on "Prime Time" on 14 January 2014, why did he say he was not aware of this? If the set-up costs are so reasonable or understandable, why did the Minister's predecessor feel the need to mislead the public in terms of what he knew about the setting up of Irish Water?

The Minister talks about legacy issues. Can I remind him that the Government is now in its fourth year of office? The people in Roscommon to whom I have spoken over the past number of evenings have been on a boil-water notice for the past 12 months. This problem has been resurrected in particular areas in Roscommon in the past 12 months. Why does the Minister think that €180 million should be spent on a super-quango at a time when people cannot have treated water running through their taps?

The Deputy said people had been on boil-water notices for the past 12 months. In some cases, they have been on boil-water notices for up to 12 years, so to have the Deputy throwing that out, given his background, borders on the ridiculous. The reason this utility was set up was to have a framework whereby we can invest in water provision for the future and ensure that this ridiculous situation never happens again.

I am concerned about a number of things. First, the Deputy made statements about the previous Minister misleading people. Those are big statements that need to be justified. The second issue is that Deputy Troy is saying he does not accept or believe the independent regulator, which has made its judgment regarding the set-up costs of this utility. Of course I accept the regulator's decision, and it would be appropriate if Deputy Troy did so as well.

Appointments to State Boards

Brian Stanley

Question:

2. Deputy Brian Stanley asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government his views on the appointment to the State planning board of individuals who had previously been involved in framing controversial proposals such as the Poolbeg incinerator. [34566/14]

This question concerns An Bord Pleanála and the appointment of people who had previously had a deep involvement with the Poolbeg incinerator project. I congratulate the new Minister and Minister for State on their appointment and wish them well.

I submitted a question that was similar to the previous question and I wish to put on record that I am very disappointed that the question was not allowed. The question was almost identical to the previous question but was ruled out of order. The explanation I received was not satisfactory.

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. I am sure they will always be extended.

It is unclear as to which member or members of An Bord Pleanála the Deputy is referring. The process for making appointments to the board is governed by the Planning and Development Act 2000. The board operates under a code of conduct as required by section 150 of the Act. One of the purposes of the code is to ensure potential conflicts of interest relating to the statutory function of An Bord Pleanála are dealt with in an appropriate manner. The code is available for viewing on the board’s website at www.pleanala.ie.

Section 13 of the code contains procedures for dealing with conflicts of interest in the context of meetings of the board where appeals and other planning cases are determined. Section 15.2 of the code also requires a board member not to deal with any case in any capacity on behalf of the board where the member had any involvement at any time in the matter, either on a personal basis or on behalf of a previous employer or as a member of any other organisation or voluntary body. Furthermore, section 15.4 of the code requires a board member not to knowingly deal with a file relating to a planning authority or a private practice where he or she was previously employed during the previous two year period or any voluntary or professional organisation of which he or she is or was a member during the previous two year period.

If the Deputy has information that he needs to make me aware of, he can always write to me and I will address it accordingly.

The history relates to the Poolbeg incinerator which has again been a live issue in the past few weeks, despite the clear opposition of the elected members of Dublin City Council and the introduction of local government reform, which has not shown them to be in a strong position. The county manager ignored their wishes and those of the people of Dublin and is pushing ahead with the project. As the Minister will be aware, RPS Group was the company contracted by DCC at a cost of more than €20 million and it recommended that the council ignore all other options relating to waste reduction, recycling and disposal and build the incinerator. One of the main engineers employed by RPS consultants was subsequently appointed to An Bord Pleanála by the former Minister, Mr. Dick Roche, in 2006. My information is that the individual in question voted to approve the incinerator proposal in 2007. The Minister mentioned a two-year gap. A former senior employee of the consultants who had promoted the project subsequently voted to approve it. Does the Minister not see a conflict of interest in this regard?

Section 150 of the Planning and Development Act 2000 requires An Bord Pleanála to adopt a code of conduct for members and its employees. The code is a comprehensive document and it is intended that the board will adhere to it. Specific requirements under the code prohibit membership of political parties or organisations involved in planning, provide for a declaration of interests to be completed annually, place a prohibition on engaging in any conduct that would bring the board into disrepute, provide for the reporting of improper communications, disclosure by board members of conflicts of interests at board meetings, etc. The full list is available on the board's website.

The manner in which this issue was dealt with was appropriate. However, on a more general basis, I am actively examining An Bord Pleanála. It was established in 1976 and has never been reviewed or looked at in an holistic way. I will address this in the future. However, in regard to the specific case, if the Deputy has additional specific information he would like to make me aware of in a personal capacity, he can write to me. I do not have a concern.

This would be an historical matter but for the fact that the person concerned was reappointed by the previous Minister and is now deputy chairperson of An Bord Pleanála. In that capacity, he further approved a series of controversial projects promoted by RPS consultants. One involves a large wind farm between Cullenagh and Timahoe, County Laois.

Despite the fact that no cost benefit analysis was conducted and the new, long-awaited planning guidelines were not in place, despite the scale of the project in a scenic location and despite the report and advice of An Bord Pleanála's inspector that the project be rejected, the board went ahead and saw fit to approve it. While I welcome the Minister's commitment to examine An Bord Pleanála, because it has supreme power in planning and appeals, does he agree that there is a conflict of interest in these cases and that it is important that An Bord Pleanála be above vested interests and be seen to be so?

It is important that An Bord Pleanála be above vested interests and I have no reason to believe it is not. The Deputy's allegations are serious and I have no reason to believe them. While he has not named the individual concerned, it is clear that the person can be identified. If the Deputy has other information which he believes is necessary to be made available to prove the allegations, I suggest he write to me to do so. Otherwise, I have been examining the operation of An Bord Pleanála and my Department will review the matter. We consider it is necessary to do so, given the length of time since it was established. As part of the process we will examine everything regarding how it operates to ensure it works as effectively as it can. While independent analysis of how the planning system and An Bord Pleanála work in terms of international practice has been very favourable, we must examine it again, particularly all of the practices related to it, to ensure it is transparent.

Mortgage to Rent Scheme Applications Data

Seamus Healy

Question:

3. Deputy Seamus Healy asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the number of mortgage to rent transactions completed in each calendar year since the inception of the scheme; his plans to increase these numbers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34561/14]

I congratulate my now constituency colleague, Deputy Alan Kelly, on his appointment as Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, as well as the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey.

Not until 2016.

I wish both of them well into the future. The mortgage to rent scheme should be an important and invaluable tool in dealing with the issue of mortgage arrears. It is a very good concept which allows approved housing bodies to purchase houses and a mortgage holder to remain in the family home with the option of repurchasing should financial circumstances improve. However, because the scheme is not being promoted and is very cumbersome and long-winded, only a small number of cases are being approved. What does the Minister intend to do to improve the position and ensure there are significant increases in approvals?

I thank the Deputy for his good wishes. `

My Department funds two mortgage to rent, MTR, schemes, a local authority, LA, scheme and an approved housing body, AHB, scheme. Both schemes are designed to assist families with income difficulties whose mortgages are deemed unsustainable and likely to remain so. Both schemes allow the household to remain in the home as a social housing tenant. Under the local authority scheme which applies to properties acquired with local authority mortgages, the local authority acquires ownership of the properties. In the case of the AHB scheme which applies to properties secured with private mortgages, properties are acquired by an approved housing body.

The schemes were launched on foot of recommendations made in the Keane report on mortgage arrears which was published in 2011. The approved housing body scheme was launched nationally in June 2012, while the local authority scheme was launched nationally earlier this year. To date, 2,490 cases have been put forward by private lending institutions for possible inclusion in the AHB scheme. In 48 of these cases negotiations between all the parties involved, namely, the property owners, lenders, AHBs and local authorities, are completed, while 29 of the cases are fully completed with all agreements signed. A further 73 are at funding approval stage, with detailed negotiations to follow. Separately, 18 cases have been completed under the local authority scheme.

The number of solutions put in place under the schemes has been low and is a factor of the complex multi-party negotiations and agreements required. The Government remains committed to helping families in mortgage difficulties to remain in their homes. In an effort to increase the numbers delivered under the AHB scheme, a new protocol between all parties involved in the process came into operation in June 2014.

The protocol includes such measures as the provision of a single independent valuation for the purpose of agreeing a purchase price. The valuation and condition surveys will now be carried out earlier in the process to give more certainty to all parties, including the borrower. I expect these new arrangements to support accelerated delivery of the schemes.

While I thank the Minister of State for the information, the figures he provided show that the number of approvals under the scheme is unacceptably low. Anything that could be done to improve the number would be very welcome. The level of mortgage arrears continues to be very high, and unfortunately the insolvency legislation brought forward by the Government is now known to be seriously flawed. The banks have a veto and mortgage holders cannot avail of it as they have little or no disposable income. The mortgage-to-rent scheme is an ideal one and it certainly should be used as a tool to deal with the many situations in which families have little or no disposable income and therefore cannot avail of the personal insolvency scheme. I urge the widening and promotion of the scheme.

I recognise and share the concern of the Deputy, as every Member does. I reassure the Deputy that the Government is committed to ensuring as far as possible that people remain in their family homes. While I note that the Deputy is calling for an increase in the numbers using the scheme, my hope is that people's circumstances improve so that they do not end up having to make an application. After all, it is one of the last resorts. It is the scheme to which people are referred when every other avenue of negotiation or resolution has been examined. I accept the concern about the process and the number of people qualifying, but as people's circumstances and the economy improve, fewer will apply to the scheme.

The main barriers to people getting full approval and sign-off have included the process. It is recognised that it was quite complex. A number of valuations, property surveys and condition surveys were required. That has been streamlined since June this year, whereby there is one independent valuation, which will speed matters up. We must also take account of the eligibility criteria of the scheme, which are onerous and a last resort for many.

I agree and hope the Minister of State is right that mortgage holders in arrears can recover the situation and find employment. However, there are many thousands of mortgage holders out there in serious arrears with no prospect of being able to deal with them. This is an ideal scheme. Unfortunately, we have seen that the personal insolvency and bankruptcy processes are flawed. In many cases, bankruptcy means loss of the family home. The key to the scheme is that the mortgage holder can stay in the family home. Everything should be done to ensure that people are given that option. To date, the scheme has not been promoted properly. It is not out there and mortgage holders are often unaware of it. I ask the Minister of State to launch an awareness programme for the scheme through local authorities and the media.

I accept the point the Deputy makes regarding awareness, but I am sure I am right in saying that in their negotiations with people in difficulties, lending institutions make them aware of all of the options available to them to remain in the family home. MABS does Trojan work to inform and assist people in debt difficulty. MABS informs people in difficulty of the options available to them. The scheme is one of the last resorts to which people are referred after every other resolution process has been examined.

The Deputy may ask the pertinent question of why numbers are so low but many applications are ineligible for a number of reasons. These include the borrower not meeting the criteria of the scheme, the borrower declining the scheme, the lender withdrawing an offer under the scheme or the local authority not having a sufficient social housing need for priority. A number of eligibility criteria must be met. It is not simple but it is a last resort and it is an effort by the Government to assist people who are in genuine difficulty. The commitment remains for the sake of those people.

Leader Programmes Administration

Éamon Ó Cuív

Question:

4. Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the progress made to date in selecting entities to deliver the social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, and Leader programmes 2014-20; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34560/14]

There has been much controversy about SICAP and the linked Leader programme and its relationship to development companies. I am interested in getting an update from the Minister on what is happening, the basis for decisions made and whether the interest of all communities in Ireland are being properly represented in what is happening.

I thank the Deputy for the question and I welcome the opportunity to address it. As outlined in the draft rural development programme 2014-20, submitted to the European Commission in July 2014, it is intended that Ireland will use a two-step process to select local development strategies for the delivery of the Leader elements of the programme. Step one of the process, which is due to commence in the coming weeks, will seek expressions of interest from interested parties who wish to be considered and selected as qualifying local action groups, LAGs. Minimum qualifying criteria are being finalised and will be made available.

It is envisaged that stage two of the process will commence before the end of 2014 and qualifying groups will be allowed a minimum of six months to develop and submit local development strategies for assessment and possible selection.

A competitive public procurement process is currently under way for the successor to my Department’s local and community development programme, LCDP. The procurement process for the new social inclusion and community activation programme, SICAP, is open to local development companies, other not-for-profit community groups, commercial firms and national organisations, that can provide the services to be tendered for to deliver the new programme. The closing date for receipt of expressions of interest under stage one of the process was 11 July 2014. Stage two, which is the invitation to tender stage, is due to get under way in October and will involve the successful applicants from stage one being invited to apply to one or more local community development committees to deliver the programme in their areas. Contracts for the delivery of SICAP, due to roll out in 2015, will be put in place following the outcome of that process.

I congratulate the Minister and his able deputy beside him on their appointments.

I thank the Deputy.

From the Minister's comment, it seems possible that a different company will deliver the SICAP programme with a separate company delivering the Leader programme in the same geographic area. Perhaps the Minister can confirm whether it is possible under the new arrangement.

Under the rural development plan sent to Brussels, despite the population of Galway and the fact that it is physically divided between east and west, it is proposed to have only one LAG in the county. Can the Minister confirm that he will stick with that decision?

Yes, it is possible to have different companies administering the two areas. Whether it is likely is a different question but it is possible. There are 28 LAGs and there are no plans to change what has been announced, which includes one in Galway. The Deputy has raised the issue through various outlets. The issue is to ensure consistency of approach. There is a specific issue in respect of Cork, given its scale, but outside of that it is about what is put forward in the plans and ensuring the requirements of a certain area are covered. Galway has specific nuances, given the Gaeltacht status of some areas.

I have engaged with the process and I will ensure that every aspect is covered in order to negate any concerns of some specific area within a unit of the LAG, for example, in Galway.

The Minister is saying that Cork gets three local action groups, even though the county does not have the geographical differences so clearly defined and nor has it three times the rural population of Galway. Therefore, Cork gets three and Galway gets one, despite the fact that one cannot drive from east Galway to west Galway without going through another local authority area. I ask the Minister to confirm that he also seems to be saying there will be no LAG for the islands this time and that each island will be part of the LAG for the respective county. I ask him to outline for me the arrangements to be made in the Gaeltacht counties to ensure services through the Irish language right up board level for those who live in the Gaeltacht areas.

The Deputy has asked a number of questions. It is Government policy that where it can be agreed locally the local community development committees will be the lead local action groups for their respective areas. We are in constant conversation with Irish Local Development Network, ILDN, and we will be talking to them again tomorrow. I have worked with these groups over a lengthy period and we are working with them in a spirit of co-operation.

Cork has specific historical issues and issues of scale. The Deputy has identified issues relating to Galway. I come from a county of similar size, if not bigger,-----

It is not bigger.

It is of a similar size and it has specific issues of its own but it will have one LAG.

In reply to the Deputy's question about the islands and the Irish language, it will be ensured that the submissions will reflect the islands' specific requirements and the need to ensure that the Irish language is covered. These matters will be dealt with as part of the submissions. If there is a need to revisit the policy because certain LAGs have not contributed sufficiently in one area or sector, then we will revisit it.

Is the Minister confirming that there will not be a LAG for the islands?

There will not be a LAG for the islands.

Social and Affordable Housing Provision

Seamus Healy

Question:

5. Deputy Seamus Healy asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government if he will provide the number of households on social housing waiting lists by county; his plans for the construction of social houses to provide for this waiting list; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [34562/14]

There is widespread agreement that we have a full-blown social housing crisis in this country. In my county of Tipperary there are 2,546 families on the local authority housing waiting list while the national figure is huge. This Government and the previous Fianna Fáil and Green Party Government have depended on privatisation and the market to deal with the issue and this policy has been an abject failure. Will the Minister commence an emergency social house building programme through the local authorities and approved housing bodies in order to build 10,000 houses per annum, as recommended by many national housing advocacy groups?

I thank the Deputy for his question which deals with a very important matter. I am well aware of the issues in Tipperary.

The statutory summary of social housing assessments in 2013 showed 89,872 households on local authority waiting lists as at 7 May 2013, representing a decrease of 9% on the previous summary of 2011. It is the most up-to-date figure available on waiting list numbers which are subject to ongoing fluctuation due to households being allocated housing and new households applying for housing support in the intervening period. The results of the 2013 summary, including breakdowns by each local authority across a range of categories, are available on my Department’s website if the Deputy wishes to access that information.

On the question of providing social housing for those on the waiting lists, a new social housing strategy is currently in preparation with the intention that it will be considered by the Government in the coming weeks.

The strategy will contain clear, measurable actions aimed at increasing the supply of social housing and they will be based on innovative solutions that will harness new funding streams in order that we might continue to protect the most vulnerable and disadvantaged in society. In the meantime, my Department is continuing to oversee the provision of social housing - through local authorities and other providers - for people on housing waiting lists and homeless persons. Overall, I expect some 6,000 social housing units to be delivered across the range of programmes in the calendar year 2014.

The figures provided by the Minister are truly horrendous and confirm the views expressed by many advocacy groups such as the Irish Council for Social Housing, Focus Ireland, Threshold, Barnardos and Social Justice Ireland, as well as Uachtarán na hÉireann, Michael D. Higgins, to the effect that there is a social housing crisis. The President addressed this matter on two occasions during the past fortnight and is on record as stating, "One of the most basic deprivations a human being can suffer, or fear, is that of being homeless," that "people who need housing and cannot provide from their own means should not be abandoned to the marketplace" and that "You can't leave the provision of housing to a residual feature of the marketplace. We have done that and homelessness is a consequence of that." What we need to do now - I hope the Minister will provide further figures in this regard - is to ensure local authorities and approved bodies build houses for those who cannot provide for them from their own means.

I concur with what the Deputy stated in his initial contribution about previous strategies. Previous Administrations effectively stopped building social housing. That was wrong. This matter must and will be addressed. We are going to recommence building social housing and will provide a significant number of units. I have been challenged - for the remainder of the Government's term of office - with ensuring the conditions necessary to facilitate this will be created. As stated, 6,000 units are due to be delivered by the end of the year. A few months ago the Government issued a restatement of its priorities and if he consults it, the Deputy will note that housing is one of our top priorities. We will deliver on our promises in this regard. The social housing strategy will be published in the coming weeks and, as part of it, we will use every avenue possible in order to ensure the level of social housing provision will be increased. We will also use every funding mechanism at our disposal in the interests of ensuring we will have the capital necessary to allow us to provide housing units.

There is an urgent issue with regard to housing in Dublin and other urban centres. The demographics for those who require social housing have changed dramatically. Over 70% of those included are single people, single people with one or two children, etc. We must address that matter in the context of the houses we build and where we build them.

The most important action the Minister and the Government can take is to oversee the construction of social housing by local authorities and approved housing bodies. The President has stated there is a need for a "huge increase in public rental accommodation." The Irish Council for Social Housing is on record as stating, "The over-reliance on the private market to meet social housing demand is unsustainable and ultimately unpredictable." What we need to know now is whether the Government is going to commence, via local authorities, a social housing construction programme and whether it will commit to providing the 10,000 houses the housing advocacy bodies state are required each year in order to address the crisis.

The right mix will be arrived at in the context of the provision of social housing into the future. The construction of houses will be a component in this regard. The strategy for social housing will be announced in the coming weeks. A major factor in this regard will be the contribution local authorities will make in providing houses. I have spent the past few months working with the housing departments of the various local authorities and speaking to every county manager in order to see to it that there will be no time lag in ensuring whatever land they have available will be made ready - where fit - for use in the provision of social housing.

All steps are being taken in this regard. The issue of finance will be dealt with as part of the social housing programme to be announced. Obviously, there will be budgetary considerations as part of the budgetary and Estimates process subsequent to that. Social housing is a complete priority for this Government and the social housing strategy will address that.

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