Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2014

Vol. 851 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

I put it to the Tánaiste that there is mounting concern and, indeed, anxiety and fear among many people in regard to the prospect of water charges, which are coming in next month. That concern is genuine and many people will be hearing it on the doorsteps in particular.

There is also a lot of confusion. The Taoiseach said originally that the average cost would be about €240 but we now know the regulator has upped that by 20% to €278. The Taoiseach said children would be free but we now know that is not the case. They will not be free. They will have a daily shower and one daily toilet flush - that is what children are getting. We know that a family with two children over 18 years of age in full-time education could be paying up to €594, which will have a very severe impact on families in that cohort.

Yesterday, I raised the issue of the boil-water notices and how incomprehensible I find it that people who have contaminated water coming in will have to pay for it, in essence, notwithstanding a basic principle that people should not have to pay for water that is contaminated. This morning we learned, courtesy of the Irish Independent, that people with medical conditions have not been provided for in any distinct way. I would appreciate clarity on that. Apparently, the Government has failed to draw up a list of specific ailments which would allow people to qualify for subsidised bills, given they would have particular medical conditions. We have had numerous parliamentary questions and replies from the former Minister, Mr. Hogan, and the Minister for Health saying they would be drawing up such arrangements or that there would be consultations. We have people in apartment blocks who are already paying up to €1,000 or €1,500 in management fees, who feel they are already paying for services and that they will be paying on the double.

The fundamental question I put to the Tánaiste is this. We had the Nevin Institute in with us recently and its representatives said the charges system the Government is bringing in, based on volume, is regressive and will impact disproportionately on lower income groups. Throughout the Government structure, there is no linkage to ability to pay and no linkage to income. Irrespective of how low a person's income is, they are expected to pay it. As a minimum, will the Government review the structures it has introduced and put in place an ability to pay framework?

Deputy Emmet Stagg

That was not in the Fianna Fáil proposal. It was €400 per house regardless.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That would be fair and would help people on the lowest incomes. Will the Tánaiste clarify the situation in regard to medical conditions and people with significant ailments who require large volumes of water due to their conditions? Will she indicate the current Government position in regard to people in that situation?

The Tánaiste

I thought the Deputy might want to talk about the economy and the fact the economy, according to the CSO, is actually performing very well-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

So scrap the water charges.

The Tánaiste

-----that it is not a credit-fuelled bubble recovery and that it is, in fact, around people going back to work.

Irish Water - I say this in the context of Deputy Martin's own party's proposals in regard to the IMF plans - was to have a very significant investment package and a programme of water charges which were to be flat charges of, on average, €400. That is what-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

Theirs are even more than that.

The Tánaiste

The documents are there. They were Fianna Fáil's own proposals so, obviously, its members have changed their minds in terms of where it is now at-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

Will they fix the pipes and get on with it? They are three years in power and they have not fixed one pipe.

The Tánaiste

-----to, in fact, being rather cynical, seeing they entered into international obligations to agree to flat water charges of €400. Their current position is cynical in the extreme.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear. Well said.

The Tánaiste

In the context of the recovery of the economy, I do not think it makes sense because the actual investment programme of a couple of billion euro into really decent water infrastructure for the whole country is an essential provision for the economy recovering-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

There is no extra money.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That will not wash.

The Tánaiste

-----and for the annual creation and employment of an additional 1,000 to 2,000 people. If we want to draw very strong international investment into Ireland, as today's CSO figures show-----

Deputy Dara Calleary

Answer the question.

The Tánaiste

The output of that is clear in today's figures, which show we are probably the strongest growing economy in Europe at this point. We see lots of people-----

A Deputy

That is nonsense.

The Tánaiste

These are the CSO's figures, not my figures. They are independent figures by a respected organisation.

Deputy Finian McGrath

What about the comrades in the Nevin Institute?

The Tánaiste

Let me explain. If we want to have-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on a second. Would you all please stay quiet? Deputy Martin asked a question and Members should allow a reply without interruption, and show some respect to the House.

Deputy Niall Collins

What about an answer to the question?

Deputy Dara Calleary

She is not in Wexford now.

The Tánaiste

If we want to have a virtuous cycle, which is what the economics of this country recovering is all about, we want investment, we want employment and we want an environmental situation which stops the widespread wastage of water.

Deputy Dara Calleary

We want to be able to drink the water.

The Tánaiste

Is that going to be done in a couple of months? Was the original ESB investment into this country done in a couple of months? If Deputy Martin or many of the Opposition had been around at the time the ESB was developed in Ireland, they would have been out there with placards opposing the development of the ESB.

A Deputy

You guys tried to fight it.

The Tánaiste

Essentially, they are simply being-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

People cannot drink dirty electricity.

The Tánaiste

They are simply being cynical and hyper-political in the context of what they were saying yesterday about Roscommon.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

On the boil-water notices, the Taoiseach made it very clear yesterday that the Commission for Energy Regulation will shortly produce a ruling in that regard and the anticipation-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is toothless.

The Tánaiste

It is the legal structure we are required by the European Union and by international-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The commission needs to get a toothbrush.

Deputy Niall Collins

It is like "The Late, Late Show" - no answers here.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time, Tánaiste. I call Deputy Martin.

The Tánaiste

The commissioner will, I anticipate, very quickly produce a ruling in that regard which will mean that people on boil-water notices will not have to pay for the delivery of water to their home.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not true.

The Tánaiste

On the health area-----

An Ceann Comhairle

You should not address the health issue. You are over time. Thank you very much. I call Deputy Martin.

The Tánaiste

It is provided for in the form, Deputy Martin.

Deputy Barry Cowen

That is the first form.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

What about the €400?

Deputy Finian McGrath

They cannot even fix the pipes.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Tánaiste did not answer the questions that I asked.

The Tánaiste

I did.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If, indeed, the economy is doing as well as she was saying-----

The Tánaiste

Does the Deputy not believe the CSO figures?

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----why is the Government then charging families with two adults up to €594?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Those are the facts.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is excessive for any family with one or two 18-year olds in full-time education. The Government now has the leeway to do something about it - that is my point.

The fundamental question I asked concerned the ability to pay.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

There was nothing in their proposal about it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I met a widow the other day who is on €183 when the property tax is taken out.

She does not know where she is going to get the money to pay. That is the question I asked her. She is the Minister for Social Protection. This is why I asked about people on the lowest incomes because the system conceived by Fine Gael in its NewERA document in terms of utility, regulator and full cost recovery rather than sustainable recovery is the model the Government has gone for. We did not go for that particular model.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

You did.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The bottom line is this. Equally, I say to the Tánaiste that I remember well when she said before the election that the Labour Party was against water charges.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy put his question? He is over time.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have two specific questions which the Tánaiste refused to answer. The bottom line is that there are people who do not have it. They are on very low incomes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy please resume his seat? He is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Analysts are saying that the Government's system is hitting them more than anybody else. Is the Tánaiste going to do something about that over and above what she has already done?

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy please resume his seat? He is over time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Could the Tánaiste answer the question?

An Ceann Comhairle

Before the Tánaiste replies, I want to make it quite clear to anybody who started this shouting racket on the second day of the 2014-2015 Dáil that I will not put up with it. I will switch off the microphones and that will be the end of it so the Members will not be heard outside here. They either obey the rules or change them. If they do not have enough time, it is up to the Whips to agree a new formula but we are not having this situation every day where we have to ask people to adhere to the rules. It is my job to apply them and, hopefully, I will do so fairly.

The Tánaiste

I said that I anticipate that the CER will report shortly and publicly in respect of the "boil water" notices. I hope the Deputy understands that. The Taoiseach told him that yesterday and I will repeat it today if it is helpful.

In respect of the second issue about which the Deputy asked, as he knows, the form that has been sent out to people by Irish Water asks them to give information about medical issues. The Deputy seems not to want to trust people. Irish Water is asking, as is common in income tax reporting, for people to self-report. So that is the answer to the second question.

The third question concerned people on low incomes and the widow on social welfare whom the Deputy met. As I said on a number of occasions, at the time when the new Government was appointed, the Taoiseach and I agreed that there would be a household water support payment. It is published in all of the documents relating to the programme for Government so let me explain it and spell it out in some detail. The first point is that it will apply to anyone on the household benefits package. It will be €100 per year paid on a quarterly basis and will apply specifically to people who are on the household benefits package, including pensioners. It will apply to people on disability and carer's payments and those in receipt of domiciliary care allowance. That is an estimated figure of 410,000 households at a cost of €42 million that has been fully agreed and provided for by both parties.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

This morning, there were reports in the media of a very shocking survey released by MABS, which is the agency that assists households in debt. The survey confirms what many of us already know, namely, that the average disposable income of people using MABS services is a mere €8.75 per week. That is all they have left after they pay the rent or mortgage and bills and pay for food and basic necessities for themselves and their children. There is no recovery for these families. Hundreds of thousands of families in work and out - those on low and middle incomes - are still struggling to survive. There is no virtuous economic cycle for them. In fact, they are at their wits' end and simply have no more to give. The MABS report confirms that the imposition of the property tax along with water charges will push many of these families over the edge. The Tánaiste knows this. She knows that these families are at breaking point yet she insists on pushing ahead with water charges.

My question to the Tánaiste is very simple. How does she expect or recommend to these families that they pay €500 or more per year for their water? What household essentials does she advise them to cut back on? What does she think these families ought to go without? I am sure the MABS report makes very sobering and startling reading for all of us and confirms yet again how wrong-headed and unfair this Government's approach has been, particularly in taxing the family home and now with the imposition of a tax on domestic water.

The Tánaiste

On Monday evening at the end of the Labour Party away day, I went to a MABS office that was not too far from where the away day was held. I spent something like two hours sitting down with the ten staff in that office to discuss the kind of cases that feature in the report. What the Deputy may not know and what Sinn Féin probably does not know is that the Department of Social Protection allocates a budget of €47 million per year to the CIB and MABS. That is significant in the current circumstances. It allocates it precisely because we want and I want a service for families who find it difficult for a number of reasons to manage budgets and families and individuals who end up with severe debts. The Deputy probably knows that credit was relatively easily available from some credit unions and, unfortunately, there are people who have legacy debt issues of the kind that we all know about.

I regularly talk to people in MABS offices. As recently as Tuesday evening, I spent nearly two hours in the MABS office talking to the staff - the money advisers - and getting their take on where things are at the moment because they are the people dealing with the cases. What they told me was very clear, that things are improving - I do not think they are improving quickly enough - which is why today's figures are so positive in terms of growth. This growth is not fuelled by a credit bubble because this is one of the reasons why MABS has so many people. Last year, it answered about 25,000 telephone inquiries and there was a similar number of case callers to the MABS offices. Some Sinn Féin Deputies would know about it. Deputy Ellis would know about the very detailed work the MABS office does for people in Finglas to help people rebuild their budgets and get into things like the household budgeting system so that debt is not a problem. Things are improving. The report to which the Deputy referred relates to 2013. We have already seen from the CSO that the figures have improved.

The single best thing I can do for people calling to the MABS service and their families and communities is to help them get back to work. This is what I have been doing. Today's report about growth in the economy really helps those families because it is not fuelled by a credit bubble as was the last growth period which got many of those families into debt. Instead, it is fuelled by actual output, selling our goods in Ireland and abroad and in particular, growing employment and businesses.

I welcome the MABS report which provides good information in the run-up to the budget. I will ensure the members of the Economic Management Council and the other members of the Government will read it. I hope all Oireachtas Members will take the time to read it in detail.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That was a lengthy response in which the Tánaiste managed not to answer the question.

Deputy Finian McGrath

No substance.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It was detailed.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I do not know how anybody on either side of the House could welcome a report or data that reflect people living at this level of economic distress or in poverty. I am sure we are all agreed that we do not want any citizen to live in poverty, yet that is the reality for many families across the State. It is perverse for the Tánaiste to suggest the introduction of another tax on something as fundamental and basic as water is somehow an assistance to these families.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In Deputy Dessie Ellis's constituency in Finglas or my constituency in Cabra or every area across the State where families are struggling, it is not helpful to charge for domestic water, yet that is what the Government proposes to do. It is not that long ago when the Labour Party had a conscience and a stand on this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy, please, put her question?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The party believed once upon a time that is was wrong to charge families for water.

Deputy Derek Keating

How much are they charged in Northern Ireland? What is the rate?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

There are no charges.

Deputy Derek Keating

Everything up there is free.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Tánaiste has come a very long way from that. I repeat the question. There is a considerable waiting list for MABS. On behalf of the Labour Party and the Government, will the Tánaiste advise on how they will pay this bill? How does somebody with such a low disposable income make this payment?

The Tánaiste

I know Deputy Dessie Ellis knows about the MABS services and I referenced him because I am aware of the work that goes on in Finglas. I am also very familiar with the work that happens in the Cabra area. I am not sure if Deputy Mary Lou McDonald is, but I certainly am.

I have maintained the money the Government spends on providing this service because it is a vital support-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I asked about water charges.

The Tánaiste

I will get to it. MABS provides an important service for people who get into difficulty with debt

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Agreed.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy mind just listening?

The Tánaiste

If she wants to declaim, I will stop while she does.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I would like an answer to the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

There is a time limit on Leaders' Question and the Tánaiste's time is up.

The Tánaiste

I thought the Deputy had something interesting to say. I welcome all of the reports from MABS because they provide important information for people like me, as Minister, and, I hope, people such as the Deputy, as a senior Opposition spokesperson, in formulating policy that helps people who have debt difficulties not just now but continuously through the years as they manage money. MABS places people in a structure that helps, but the Deputy denies this. I know this service, as does the man sitting beside her.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time.

The Tánaiste

Why in Northern Ireland has Sinn Féin an average household charge of almost €1,000? What the Deputy is saying is really a bit of cant because her party in government in the North imposes significantly higher charges on householders, whether they are rich or poor.

Deputy Joan Collins

There has been much in the media about the Government gearing up into election campaign mode, with promises of tax cuts, beginning in the budget to be announced next month.

Deputy Arthur Spring

What about the growth figures?

Deputy Joan Collins

I am sure the Tánaiste, as leader of the Labour Party, would have nothing to do with such cynicism, using people's money to buy an election.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Will the Deputy pay her property tax so?

An Ceann Comhairle

Stay quiet.

Deputy Joan Collins

These are the Fianna Fáil politics of old, which the Government promised to banish. We know how these promises worked out in practice. Will the Tánaiste commit to prioritising the reversal of cuts in social services and welfare payments before any consideration of tax cuts is made by the Government? That is essential following on from the MABS report. People should not have to go with a begging bowl. They should be able to maintain their dignity in securing an income to be able to live. Does the Tánaiste find it incredible that Ministers are talking about income tax cuts when the HSE is talking about shedding 700 jobs a month to come within budget, a budget which has been savaged for the past six years? The Minister of Health is looking for €1.4 billion just to maintain current health service provision.

Will the Government parties start considering the restoration of the Christmas bonus to welfare claimants and the reversal of cuts that have seriously affected people with disabilities? Will they examine the situation where only 16% of women are entitled to the full State contributory old age pension? Will the Tánaiste bring in the home-maker's credit scheme, which she promised to do when she changed the eligibility criteria for old age pensions? She claims we are at the end of austerity budgets and has come to the House with growth figures from the CSO. Few people will feel a benefit from this when they get their water tax bill next year. It has been claimed by some Ministers that tax cuts will put €5 or €10 extra in people's pockets, but that money will be taken directly out of their pockets through another austerity tax, the water charge. Will the Tánaiste make it clear to citizens that she will prioritise those people who have felt the austerity attack most?

The Tánaiste

I have published with the Taoiseach three commitments which are important in the context of the forthcoming budget. The first is, as I said in reply to Deputy Micheál Martin, an agreed budget of €42 million for a payment on a quarterly basis of €100 per year to people in receipt of the household benefits package. It will be paid to 410,000 households and includes retirees, carers, people with a disability and families in receipt of the domiciliary care allowance for children. That is a significant number and it is a budget commitment.

Some of the NGOs and others I meet regularly were concerned about the free travel pass, which is iconic and much valued by retired people. We gave a commitment that it would continue.

The third commitment we made, which cuts to the heart of the Deputy's question, was that in the budget we would introduce additional measures to support families with children on a social welfare income such as jobseeker's allowance and that we would incentivise people to take up employment as it became available. The great thing about the CSO figures is they show the economy is seriously in recovery. The figures are striking. GDP grew by 5.8% in the first half of this year, while GNP, year on year, was up 9%, which means that we have left the worst difficulties and the collapse of the economy behind. It is not a credit fuelled bubble, which is what happened in the 2000s as the economy recovered.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Members behind the Tánaiste do not even believe that.

The Tánaiste

Families with members returning to work receive approximately €30 per child. They will be able to hold on to that payment for a period.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

And pay for dirty water.

The Tánaiste

For instance, if someone has two or three children, it would be worth €60 or €90 to them per week, in addition to what they might be entitled to receive under the family income supplement scheme. The best way to help families and individuals who have lost their jobs, for the most part through no fault of their own, is to help them to get back into employment.

This year we will spend an increased figure on family income supplement. By the end of the year it will be at least €280 million. I propose, and I am in discussions with our partners, that in the budget we examine what room we have to assist people. This includes examining whether there is room for tax relief for people on middle and low incomes. We also must consider people who are unemployed and whom we are able to assist more in getting back to work.

Deputy Joan Collins

While that is very good, I repeat that the Government is using the argument of tax cuts and putting it on the agenda as a ploy to get elected in the next general election.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is a stunt.

Deputy Joan Collins

Will the Tánaiste give a clear declaration that she will prioritise reversing the cuts in social welfare and public services? We want to hear it from the Tánaiste. I want to hear the Government identify areas where cuts will be reversed and make a commitment not to introduce tax cuts as a ploy to try to get re-elected in 2016.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy will be glad to hear that this year we have spent an extra €200 million approximately on the additional pensioners who are reaching the age at which they qualify for a pension. We have a very positive demographic in terms of older people. We have more older people, and they are living longer. I do not know if anybody from the Technical Group attended yesterday’s meeting of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Education and Social Protection, where we spent two and a half hours going through the social welfare figures. Deputy Ó Snodaigh represented Sinn Féin for the entire meeting and the other parties were also represented. I explained in detail that we are spending more in significant areas of social welfare because, for example, we have more pensioners and we are paying child benefit to 600,000 households, comprising more than 1 million children. These are demographic pressures, due to our growing population, which we are meeting.

The Deputy should not be down on tax relief for ordinary workers on the average industrial wage.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

Hear, hear.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Deputy Joan Collins has a strong record on low-paid workers.

The Tánaiste

Young people going out to work find they are entering the top rate around €32,000 or €34,000. If we develop recovery for the economy, of course people relying on social welfare income should be assisted, but so should the people going out to work and paying the taxes and PRSI that allow us to have a good social welfare system. As Labour Party leader, I find it equally important.