Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 18 Sep 2014

Vol. 851 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Homeless Accommodation Provision

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this issue. I congratulate Deputy Coffey on his appointment as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government with special responsibility for housing. It is an important area and I wish him well in his role.

I wish to raise the efforts being made to provide accommodation for homeless people, a matter which has been the subject of many debates in the House. I have received a number of submissions in this regard. For example, one relates to Galway city where there is a long housing waiting list. COPE Galway, a local charity, proposes an allocation of €500 million for the social housing building programme, with a portion of that ring-fenced to tackle homelessness, particularly in the context of the 2016 Government target to eliminate long-term homelessness and the need to help people who are sleeping rough.

I was a little concerned, as were many other Members, when Dublin City Council, DCC, brought forward a proposal to use prefabricated buildings on derelict or vacant sites to house homeless families. Most people reacted by asking why not consider permanent housing. When the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection was asked about this, she acknowledged there was a need to consider permanent housing and to examine the programme to refurbish many vacant housing units in Dublin. It would be useful if we concentrated on such housing for families and refurbished houses that are boarded up. I hope the funding DCC has received will be used as a priority for these buildings as well as for the social housing programme. The chief executive officer of ALONE said he was astounded that such a proposal would be made because he felt that had nothing to do with the dignity of a person. Many of us have fought for temporary accommodation for schools and so on. However, we should consider permanent housing solutions given the housing crisis we face.

Mr. Sean Moynihan, the CEO of ALONE, said 25% of calls to ALONE relate to older people’s housing needs. This is a measure of the fact that more than 4,700 older people in Ireland are in need of housing.

Some 156 families, including 341 children are living in Dublin hotels, which is unacceptable. The important thing is to try to get a programme going that would deal with this situation. The Minister should bear in mind the words of Brother Kevin Crowley, the founder of the Capuchin Day Centre for Homeless People, about the fact that we are badly in need of emergency accommodation. He also referred to the fact that the night bus service had ceased, which included ring-fenced accommodation. There are serious issues which we should examine. Brother Crowley talked about very vulnerable people being pushed to the bottom in the housing crisis, and we should keep this in mind. I would like the Minister to give us an idea of the Government’s thinking about dealing with homeless people.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Paudie Coffey)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important matter, which presents a challenge in Irish society. There is significant pressure on homelessness services. Recent figures show that 127 people are sleeping rough and more than 150 families are residing in commercial hotels in the Dublin area. More than 2,500 individuals are using section 10-funded emergency accommodation nationally. On 20 May 2014 the implementation plan on the State’s response to homelessness was published, in which the Government’s approach to delivery on its objective of ending involuntary, long-term homelessness by the end of 2016 was outlined. A copy of the plan is available on my Department’s website. It sets out a range of measures to secure a ring-fenced supply of accommodation to house homeless households within the next three years and mobilise the necessary supports. This will be in line with the Government’s homelessness policy statement, which emphasises a housing-led approach, accessing permanent housing as a primary response to all forms of homelessness. The availability and supply of secure, affordable and adequate housing is essential in ensuring sustainable tenancies and ending long-term homelessness. The plan is a blueprint for how this challenging ambition will be realised.

Homelessness is a national issue and, properly, the plan reflects this, but there is a concentration of the problem in the Dublin area. For this reason, Dublin City Council, the lead authority for the region, is taking a number of immediate steps to quickly bring the problem under control and begin the process of finding permanent solutions for those affected. These actions are in the context of the national implementation plan and are set out in the Dublin action plan. In June, Dublin City Council launched a public awareness campaign aimed at households in the private rented sector seeking to prevent such households from becoming homeless. The results so far indicate that the campaign has been very positive in that a number of households have been prevented from becoming homeless.

Bringing vacant local authority properties back into productive use as quickly as possible is one of the critical actions in the implementation plan and steps are being taken across the country to bring 1,800 such units into use before the year end. Other suitable vacant residential properties in State ownership are also being considered to be brought into productive use as quickly as possible. Some large sites in Dublin City have been identified by key stakeholders including the OPW, the Department of Defence and the HSE, and they are being considered by Dublin City Council. I share Deputy Kitt’s concerns about Dublin City Council’s proposal to use prefabs. The Department will carefully consider such proposals before any further action is taken.

My Department, the Housing Agency and NAMA continue to work with housing authorities and approved housing bodies towards identifying suitable NAMA housing units and bringing them into social housing use, including accommodation for homeless households. The number of homeless families presenting in the Dublin region has increased significantly in recent months. An average of 32 families are presenting each month. With the volume of new presentations, it is becoming increasingly challenging to provide appropriate and suitable accommodation, particularly in light of significant housing supply issues in the Dublin area.

The Dublin local authorities are statutorily responsible for providing accommodation for homeless persons and, unfortunately, hotel accommodation has had to be used as a form of emergency accommodation so as to avoid the need for families to sleep rough. This is unsustainable. The homelessness policy implementation team, charged with overseeing and monitoring the delivery of actions outlined in the Government’s implementation plan has been considering the matter further and options are being considered to alleviate the immediate problems in the Dublin region. The broader supply of housing will be addressed in the short to medium term by the actions being progressed in the Construction 2020 strategy, as well as the social housing strategy, which will be published shortly.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I support what the Minister of State said about vacant housing. I would like to follow up on the point he made about NAMA. Every local authority should have a transfer unit for NAMA property and, hopefully, we will have more opportunities to avail of the NAMA properties. The number of NAMA properties that have been used has fallen far short of what should be made available. A proposal by the leader of the Green Party, Eamon Ryan, on the use of timber-framed housing would be a very speedy way of providing very comfortable accommodation in a sustainable way.

A comment by Tony Geoghegan of Merchants Quay that homelessness seems to be becoming acceptable is very frightening and worrying. While Dublin has always been mentioned as the area where there is the greatest need for housing, figures from COPE Galway show that 112 families including 246 children are either homeless or at risk of homelessness. We must ensure people, particularly in Galway City, have a good chance of getting a house. However, applicants could be on a waiting list for a house for ten or 12 years. I hope the Minister of State will bear in mind the issues I raise and that something might happen shortly, rather than having long-term plans that are of no use to those who are suffering now.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

Again, I thank the Deputy for raising a critical and urgent matter that will require a mixed response in the short, medium and long terms. I note the Deputy’s comments on the use of construction innovations such as timber-framed housing and the possibility that it may be used to meet an immediate need on sites that become available. While myriad personal, financial and social reasons can contribute to a person's becoming homeless, for those involved the effects on their lives are similarly traumatic and disabling. Societally, the ramifications of homelessness are equally destructive and costly.

More than €500 million in funding is being made available through my Department in 2014 across a range of housing programmes and I expect that approximately 6,000 social housing units will be provided this year. The Department is also committed to continuing to develop innovative and sustainable approaches to the provision of social housing. An increase in the supply of new social homes is necessary, and it is acknowledged. Every available, appropriate unit needs to be transformed into a home as quickly as reasonably possible. It behoves all of us to consider where capacity already exists in building stock around the country and to respond to demand. There are many vacant and under-utilised units, which may not be houses but over-shop units and apartments, for example. I thank the Deputy, again, for raising this important matter.

Pyrite Issues

Deputy Alan Farrell

I welcome the Minister of State and congratulate him on his appointment as Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government. I raise an issue which is close to my heart, as my own home was affected by the issue and remediated three years ago. I have thankfully not had difficulty in obtaining insurance, as the firm with which I have my mortgage is also my insurer and it would not be in its interest to refuse insurance. That is not the case for many hundreds of other properties right across north Leinster, from the fringe between Dublin and Fingal to Malahide, Swords, Rush, Lusk and as far away as Meath, Louth and parts of Kildare. The Pyrite Remediation Board has stated that as many as 12,000 properties are affected, of which only a portion will be remediated by the board and the Housing Agency. My aim is to bring to the attention of the Minister the difficulties property owners are having in obtaining quotes for home insurance policies to cover fire, theft and structural problems. Through no fault of their own, these people own properties which contain pyrite. This is the case for more than 1,000 properties across north Leinster which have been remediated and many hundreds more which the Pyrite Remediation Board and the Housing Agency propose to remediate in the coming months and years.

Currently, there is no obligation for an insurance company to issue a quotation or insurance policy for home insurance, but when one considers that mortgage protection policies, which are often linked to home insurance policies, and similar policies are being refused, it is obvious that it is not in the public interest for this issue to be allowed to fester. I draw the attention of the Minister of State to the consumer protection code, which is administered by the Financial Services Ombudsman under the auspices of the Department of Finance, where Deputy Harris is Minister of State. An arrangement is in place whereby, in theory, if a policy is refused, the ombudsman can direct an insurance company to provide a quote. I would like to see us reaching agreement on this rather than having to go in with some sort of legislative response that might have unintended consequences. I draw the attention of the Minister of State to the voluntary code that exists in the motor insurance industry among the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, the Irish Insurance Federation and individual insurance companies. Over the last 30 years, they have agreed to a committee structure which acts an appeals mechanism. If an individual is refused three quotes, he or she may take the first quote to the committee, which will adjudicate on it. It may require the first company that refused insurance to provide a quote to the motor vehicle owner. I would like to see the creation of a similar system whereby a committee can be comprised of the individual insurance companies and, perhaps, the Financial Services Ombudsman, taking into account the consumer protection code. I would like to see the Department and perhaps even the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, head it up, as it is a matter related directly to housing, an area in which Deputy Coffey has a great deal of experience. The Department should convene a meeting with the relevant stakeholders, including the insurance companies, the Pyrite Remediation Board, the insurance federation and a number of Departments. Insurance falls under the remit of a number of Departments; it is not restricted to the housing area. The Department of Finance would be involved in any legislative changes that might need to be brought in. The aim is to ensure that homeowners who have had pyrite remediation carried out on their properties and, on paper at least, have no issue with the pyrite scourge that has befallen many properties across north Leinster have an option to insure their homes so that they are covered if something happens.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

I thank Deputy Farrell for raising this important matter of concern. While my Department has no regulatory function in the area of insurance or insurance-based products, I will raise this issue with the appropriate regulatory bodies and Departments and will be supportive of any proposals that may be put forward by them in this matter.

The pyrite remediation scheme, which was published by the Pyrite Resolution Board in February 2014, was developed having regard to the recommendations set out in the report of the independent pyrite panel. The scheme is one of last resort and applies to dwellings with significant pyritic damage. The scheme is fundamentally a works scheme aimed at remediating pyrite-damaged homes to Irish Standard 398-2:2013, Reactive Pyrite in Sub-floor Hardcore Material - Part 2: Methodology for Remediation Works, published by the National Standards Authority of Ireland in January 2013, to ensure the restoration of the quality that affected homeowners expect and are entitled to. All works under the scheme will be completed to the required standard by competent builders and overseen by construction professionals in accordance with the requirements of the board and the Housing Agency. At the end of the works, homeowners will be provided with certification to confirm that their homes have been remediated to the appropriate standard. Given that the contaminated hardcore will be removed and replaced with compliant material and all damage remediated, any risk to the structural integrity of remediated homes will be eliminated, thereby removing any impediment towards the future insurance of these homes.

As matters stand, approximately 560 applications have been received by the board, of which 375 have been validated and referred to the Housing Agency for the next stage in the process: assessment, verification and recommendation. In the region of 150 dwellings have now been recommended for inclusion in the pyrite remediation scheme and the applicants have been notified accordingly. The first remediation works under the scheme commenced earlier this month on a small group of houses in a development in north Dublin.

Given that IS 398:2013 - Part 2 sets out a clear methodology for the remediation of dwellings with pyritic heave, and the fact that all dwellings under the pyrite remediation scheme will be remediated to that standard, as indeed may other dwellings outside the scheme, I urge all insurance providers to reconsider their position in these matters and provide the insurance cover that homeowners need for peace of mind, notwithstanding any obligations they may have under their mortgage conditions.

Deputy Alan Farrell

I thank the Minister of State for his response. My home was remediated three years ago last month. While I outlined at the outset that I do not personally have difficulty obtaining insurance, properties in my estate have changed hands in the meantime and a number of individuals have struggled to get insurance. My particular concern is cases in which properties have been remediated, the necessary certification of remediation has been provided and the NSAI standard under the 2013 regulations has been adhered to.

In certain instances the Housing Agency has commenced remediation of properties under the scheme, on which I compliment the Department, but insurance companies are still refusing cover. The reason they have outlined is that in order to assess a structural problem with the property, they must first rule out pyrite, which costs money. They are not prepared to take the risk. In effect, we are talking about an insurance policy which does not cover structural problems. If a property has a structural fault, whatever it might be, the family cannot get insurance. This prevents properties from being sold in certain instances, as the purchaser is aware that the property has been remediated and knows he or she will have difficulty getting insurance. I have been contacted by brokers and I have contacted underwriters directly and been told the same thing throughout the conversations I have had, which is that these firms will not insure pyrite-affected properties even after they have been remediated, as it costs money for them to exclude the possibility of pyritic heave or structural damage having been caused over preceding years, even with current certification.

The suggestion I have set out to the Minister of State is a possible step the Department or the Minister of State's own office could spearhead with a view to ensuring families have recourse. We could rely on the existing model in the motor insurance industry to establish a cross-departmental, cross-industry group to agree a similar approach, which I believe will resolve the matter for what is only a small number of properties. We are only talking about a few hundred properties in the large scheme of things. It would certainly put the owners' minds at rest in terms of being able to insure their own properties in the future.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

I thank the Deputy and assure him that the issue will be raised with the statutory bodies and Departments involved in the regulation and oversight of insurance.

I will be fully supportive of any proposals that may be put forward to bring a satisfactory conclusion to the difficulties homeowners with pyrite damage are facing even when remediation has been carried out. I also expect the insurance industry to respond. I am confident that all homes remediated to "Irish Standard 398-2:2013 Reactive pyrite in sub-floor hardcore material — Part 2: Methodology for remediation works" published by the National Standards Authority of Ireland, will be fully compliant with the appropriate requirements of our national building regulations and will be restored to the quality homeowners expect and are entitled to. Accordingly, there are no valid reasons why insurance cannot be provided to homeowners whose homes have been remediated to this standard given that the risk of any further pyrite damage will have been removed and existing damage will have been repaired and properly certified by a competent professional. I call on all insurance providers to reconsider their policy on this matter and to provide the insurance cover that such homeowners require to ensure their homes are protected against future unforeseen risk.

Motor Fuels Issues

Deputy John O'Mahony

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting the topic and I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Simon Harris, for cancelling other business to reply to this debate. I also congratulate him on his appointment.

This concerns fuel contamination, which has been happening throughout the west, the midlands and in the Mayo constituency. It involves mixing kerosene into petrol. Kerosene costs 80 cent per litre and petrol is €1.55 per litre and doing this increases the amount of petrol but it destroys the engines of cars more quickly than laundered diesel was doing some years ago.

It has reached epidemic proportions in my constituency over the past number of weeks, as unsuspecting motorists buy fuel at certain outlets. Some people have had more than one engine destroyed and some insurance companies are excluding it from cover or not covering it in new policies that are issued. Almost 400 people attended a public meeting in Swinford, County Mayo on Tuesday. What measures are in place to deal with this? There must be immediate action to identify and eliminate the source of the practice. There must be some help for unsuspecting motorists, some of whom have also had a replacement engine destroyed by this.

A few years ago, there was diesel laundering and legislation was introduced making the amount of green diesel purchased by retailers traceable. When I checked, I found that it is not true for petrol. It would help to eliminate the source of this fuel.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

I welcome the Minister of State in his new capacity agus go n-éirí leis. This is a massive problem and it urgently needs attention. There is a crisis of consumer confidence and a crisis of public confidence, particularly in east Mayo where there are numerous cases of petrol stretching. I attended the meeting last Monday, along with 400 people. More than half of them stood up and said they had problems with their vehicles stretching back to July. It is shocking that people can go into the forecourt, get a fill of petrol and find the engine is destroyed. Our local garages are full of these vehicles. I have spoken to several assessors in garages and they listed the various scenarios that arise. They are dealing with insurance companies. We need immediate intervention because I cannot answer the question of where it is safe to buy petrol. Imagine that in this day and age. There is uproar and outrage about the issue.

This falls under the remit of Customs and Excise, which is why the Minister of State at the Department of Finance is present, but there was no one from Customs and Excise at that meeting. The Garda Síochána attended and are trying but this is within the expertise and gift of Customs and Excise. If people's confidence is to be encouraged, we must know we are getting to the bottom of this and that culprits are taken to task.

With regard to the Garda Síochána, there is only one public service vehicle officer in County Mayo and if resources are needed they must be pumped in now. It may not be simple because the fuel is burned off and taking a fuel sample will not help. In any event, a criminal prosecution takes time and victims are seriously out of pocket. It is estimated that only 30% of people are covered by insurance and new cars are clapped-out because of this. Warranties do not cover this and only people with comprehensive insurance are covered. People cannot afford the thousands of euro to fix their vehicles. There must be some scheme for this. Of course, the culprits should ultimately pay but the victims do not have the time or deep pockets of the insurance companies or the State to get to the bottom of this. It needs urgent attention.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Simon Harris)

I thank Deputies John O'Mahony and Michelle Mulherin for raising an issue that is causing considerable concern to constituents in Mayo. I am pleased to have this opportunity to respond to the issues raised on behalf of the Minister for Finance.

I am aware that the Revenue Commissioners have recently received reports of the alleged stretching of petrol using kerosene or other substances. Any illegal activity of this kind would be a matter of serious concern because of the significant risks to the Exchequer, the threat to legitimate businesses and the damage that can be caused to the vehicles of unsuspecting purchasers of adulterated fuel. Revenue is investigating the matter and is working in co-operation with representatives of the motor industry.

Petrol stretching is an offence under S102(1A) Finance Act 1999 and carries a penalty on summary conviction of €5,000 or at the discretion of the court to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months or both. It is an indictable conviction and the fine is to a maximum of €126,970 and the prison term is to a maximum of five years or both. The public can take steps to protect itself from this activity by purchasing fuel from reputable dealers only. Where an individual is aware of, or has specific information relating to, shadow economy activity, he or she should pass that information to Revenue which will ensure it is sent to the relevant State agency for the necessary action. Such reports specifically relating to fuel fraud or indeed other areas of the shadow economy may be made in confidence to Revenue's free hotline, 1800 295 295.

The Revenue Commissioners review strategies on fuel fraud on a continuous basis and, where it identifies a need for legislative provisions to strengthen the legal framework for tackling illegal activity and protecting legitimate business, the Minister for Finance will consider such proposals very carefully. Action against the illicit oil trade in the period since 2011 has led to the detection and shutting down of 30 oil laundries and to the seizure of some 3 million litres of illicit fuel. In addition, more than 120 filling stations were closed for trading without a licence or for breach of licence conditions. I am satisfied with the progress made by Revenue in tackling fuel fraud and with the excellent co-operation between Revenue and the fuel sector in implementing very significant supply chain controls over the past three years. I am also pleased with the positive feedback from the fuel sector about the positive impact of the measures and the reduced incidence of laundered fuel on the market.

The Minister for Finance looks forward to continued co-operation with the implementation of the new fuel marker and in tackling continuing problems in the fuel sector, including petrol-stretching. I understand that Revenue, as part of the investigation of this illegal activity, is working in co-operation with the fuel and motor trades. The interests of consumers and compliant businesses are best served by them playing their part in combating shadow economy activity by knowing their suppliers and providing information, anonymously or otherwise, to Revenue or to other relevant State agencies on persons involved in the shadow economy. In that regard, Revenue has recently launched a dedicated section of its website specifically on the shadow economy and this includes an electronic reporting facility for anyone who has information about shadow economy practices. I take the point made by Deputy Mulherin about resourcing and the lack of attendance by the Customs and Excise at the meeting. These are matters I will raise with the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Justice and Equality.

Deputy John O'Mahony

I raise the issue of the innocent motorists who have been caught out and have incurred significant costs as a result. I ask if there could be some form of engagement with insurance companies on their behalf so these motorists might not be at a disadvantage. The legitimate outlets are paying their taxes and doing everything by the book. I acknowledge the great work of the Customs and Excise service and the Garda Síochána to combat fuel laundering. The independent petrol retailers' association is an independent group with whom I have worked over recent years. The association's members guarantee the quality of fuel sold in their forecourts. They carry out independent testing regularly and their premises are designated by a flag.

A concerted approach is needed from the Customs and Excise service, the Garda Síochána, the Minister and all involved. The issue of fuel laundering was dealt with and the people involved are now moving on to petrol stretching. It will be necessary to weed them out. The traceability of petrol needs to be regarded as a matter to be dealt with urgently.

Deputy Michelle Mulherin

The Minister will agree that I have described a crisis situation. Confidence must be restored. People are unsure where to buy fuel even though there are reputable dealers. It is not good for business in general. Petrol stations send returns to Revenue every month stating where they source their petrol supplies. What is the Customs and Excise doing about the situation which has been ongoing for a couple of months? If it is a resources problem I ask that it be nailed and resources injected into the service, including the drafting of staff from elsewhere. We cannot ignore the apparent 70% of people who are neither covered by their insurance nor by warranty. I ask what can be done for them. I am aware of people who are unable to afford the several thousand euro to buy a new vehicle and many have been left without the use of a vehicle. The case is similar for new vehicles.

I have attended many public meetings in my area. The main agitators who are throwing oil on the fire are Sinn Féin members but not one Sinn Féin person attended a meeting of 400 people. It begs the question whether Sinn Féin condones the practice. I ask if it could be intrinsically associated with the fact that the IRA has been oft associated with fuel laundering. We know of the very close ties of Sinn Féin with the IRA. I wondered with great interest on the night whether it is condoning what is going on.

Deputy Simon Harris

I reiterate my thanks to both Mayo Deputies, Deputy O'Mahony and Deputy Mulherin, for raising and highlighting this issue in the House and giving me an opportunity to outline to the House the seriousness with which the Minister for Finance treats this matter, as does the Revenue Commissioners. The Deputies have both made the point that as well as this illegal activity a significant number of innocent motorists who are going about their business trying to purchase cars and to keep their car on the road, are falling victim to this crime. The practice of petrol stretching is illegal for which a concerted approach is required. I agree there is a role for Revenue and also for the Garda Síochána and the Customs and Excise. There is also a role for the public and this is a message I wish to publicise on behalf of the Minister for Finance. Anyone with information about such activity can avail of at least two fora to convey that information, by means of the Freefone telephone number, to pass on tip-offs anonymously to Revenue on 1800 295 295, or by means of the new section on the Revenue website where it is possible to log electronically any complaints or concerns in this regard.

If either Deputy or any Member of this House or the Revenue Commissioners has ideas for legislative solutions or shortcomings in this regard, the Minister for Finance will treat these very carefully and seriously, as he always does. Petrol stretching is affecting legitimate business at a very difficult time for them. I look forward to a continued engagement with Members on this issue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies Clare Daly, Mick Wallace and Ruth Coppinger have raised the next matter and are sharing time with two minutes each.

Abortion Legislation

Deputy Clare Daly

It is with great sadness that we raise this issue again in the House. When it was discussed previously in the context of the death of Savita Halappanaver the words, "Never again", were frequently used. Of course, it has happened again and it will keep happening until we deal with Ireland's abortion reality.

The latest case known as Miss Y concerns a young woman impregnated as a result of rape and violated again by the State, has sickened Irish people to the core. It has exposed very graphically how our lack of provision for abortion in cases of rape has meant that if a person does not have the money or the means to travel, then she is forced to carry a rapist's child. This fact sickens Irish citizens; it is not what women want for themselves, their daughters, their mothers or their partners. It is cruel and degrading treatment.

This latest horror story has again exposed the hypocrisy of how successive Governments have failed to deal with Ireland's abortion reality, where Irish women have a legal right to abortion enshrined in our Constitution through the right to travel, but we simply cannot have that health treatment at home. It is disgusting hypocrisy, a scenario which the UN recently described as contributing to mental torture.

Deputies Mick Wallace, Joan Collins and I raised this issue and moved legislation and we made the point that the root of this issue is the eighth amendment which has resulted in a Chinese wall being put between a woman's right to health and a woman's right to life, rights which are indistinguishable in international human rights legislation, but for Irish women are qualified rights. The recent case means that the legislation which the Minister's Government introduced has not even been able to deal with what it was supposed to deal with, to give a right enshrined under the European Court of Human Rights for a woman to access a legal abortion where her life was in danger. We have seen crocodile tears about the treatment of Irish women and their children in the past but this is an unbroken thread.

Will the Minister finally shape up to this issue and repeal the eighth amendment? We had a very successful event earlier this month, a conference to repeal the eighth amendment at which delegates from across various sectors agreed with me when I said that we would use our Private Members' time in January to move a repeal of the eighth amendment if the Government does not do so. I hope the Minister will take up the challenge and do it first.

Deputy Mick Wallace

In recent weeks the issue of abortion has dominated the headlines once again. News broke that a migrant woman, pregnant as a result of rape, was denied access to an abortion under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act, even though she clearly expressed the desire to die rather than to carry the pregnancy to term. How can the Government stand over the manner in which this woman was dealt with by the State? Does the Minister agree this amounts to cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment? If a woman whose case bears some similarity to the X case cannot access an abortion under this legislation, how can we expect any woman whose life is at risk because of her pregnancy to have confidence in the system? It is not fit for purpose as we warned during the debate.

The UN Human Rights Committee characterised the panel system for assessing pregnant women at risk of suicide as mental torture. Why would any vulnerable woman put herself through this if she has the means to travel abroad for a safe and legal abortion? This case will terrify those who cannot travel. The State took steps to force a rape survivor to continue with her pregnancy against her will. It sought court orders to hydrate her forcibly against her will. This is frightening. Even before we heard about this latest horrific case, the UN Human Rights Committee expressed serious concern about the severe mental suffering caused by the denial of abortion services to women seeking abortions due to rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormality or serious risk to health. What are the Government's plans to address the UN recommendation that Ireland should revise this legislation and the Constitution, to provide for access to abortion in these cases?

Will the Government continue to ignore Ireland's obligations under the international covenant on civil and political rights? During the UN hearings in Geneva, the State acknowledged that Irish abortion law discriminates against women who are unable to travel abroad. How can the Government stand over such blatant inequality?

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

It is unfortunate we have to squeeze into six minutes our contributions on a very serious case which arose over the summer. We are forced to raise it as a Topical Issue matter instead of time being set aside. A young rape victim who had already been sexually violated was further violated by this State.

She was prevented from having a timely, early abortion and the Government then saw fit to obtain a court order to facilitate her being forcibly hydrated.

The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act was meant to deal with the small number of situations where someone who is suicidal is supposed to have a right to an abortion. However, it has failed the first test and has proven to be completely and utterly barbaric. This is the latest in a long series of the Irish State taking control of women's bodies and their lives. The thread runs from the Magdalen laundries, through the mother and baby homes and on to the practice of symphysiotomy, which led to women having their pelvises broken during childbirth because ideological doctors saw fit to do that to them. The Government is continuing to uphold the status quo. For too long the State has leaned on the Catholic Church for support and given it inordinate power. At a time when support for that church within society is so limited, the State continues to grant it inordinate power over women's lives.

The Socialist Party will be challenging the Government to hold a referendum on this matter in the spring. The constant mantra to the effect that there is no appetite for such a referendum runs completely contrary to the views of young people. Their views and those of the individuals in government are light years apart. This is not an issue for most people in society. The majority of citizens would support the idea of abortion in circumstances where a woman's life or health is at risk, where she has been raped or where an abnormality exists. Is the Government stating that we must wait a further 31 years before we change this medieval law? It should be remembered that no woman of childbearing age had a vote in the referendum held in 1983. Is the Government determined to wait until another poor or sick woman dies as a result of its rank hypocrisy, which is based on the fact that it might lose a few backbenchers and is ideologically opposed to abortion? We must end the hypocrisy of forcing thousands of working-class women to gather together €1,500 in order to go abroad to have an operation, when, for example, they could pay €90 for an abortion pill in this country. It is time for the hypocrisy to stop and for the Government to name the date for the referendum in order that people might have their say.

Minister for Health (Deputy Leo Varadkar)

I thank the Deputies for raising this important issue. The case of the young woman who has become known as "Miss Y" is very sad for all concerned. I do not wish to comment further on it until I have all the facts available to me. It is wrong to jump to conclusions on any matter without knowing all the facts, as I am sure Deputies will agree. What I can say is that the young woman involved arrived in Ireland in late March 2014 and sought and was granted asylum in this State. In early August, she had a termination of pregnancy under section 9 of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act by planned pre-term caesarean section. On 18 August, Tony O’Brien, director general of the Health Service Executive, requested that a report be completed for him in order to establish all of the facts surrounding the care given to her.

The purpose of the report is to establish all of the factual circumstances and the sequence of events as they relate to the care provided to Miss Y during her pregnancy, her care and welfare, to include her mental health, and, where relevant, the operation of the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013; and to examine and document the chain of communication among different service providers, including referrals between services and the flow of information on Miss Y both within the HSE and externally. In the event that any failings in service delivery are identified, the report is to establish the causes and contributory factors involved in order that they might be addressed. The period to be covered by the report will be from the time Miss Y first had contact with HSE and related services or other agencies and NGOs regarding her pregnancy, until the time that her pregnancy was ended by caesarean section. When the report is submitted to me, I will consider it and contemplate any appropriate action which may need to be taken. I am very keen to have the report sooner rather than later. However, anyone who is referred to in the report has the right to see and comment on it before publication. That is what natural justice dictates and it will determine the final date of publication.

In the meantime, I wish to clarify that the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act was used in this case and that a termination of pregnancy was performed by means of an early delivery by caesarean section. This was the case as a result of the stage of gestation the child involved had reached. The Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act 2013 was enacted in July 2013 and commenced in January 2014. It provides for lawful termination where there is a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the pregnant woman which may only be averted by termination of pregnancy. It does not allow for a termination on any other grounds. The Act also creates procedures which apply to the lawful termination of pregnancy. The objectives of these procedures are to ensure that where lawful termination of pregnancy is under consideration, the right to life of the unborn is protected, where practicable and as required by the Constitution and that a woman can ascertain, by means of a clear process, whether she requires this procedure. At present, there are no proposals to amend the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act in the lifetime of this Government - it will be reviewed, as required, next June - or to hold a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment of the Constitution.

Deputy Clare Daly

We were not discussing the individual case but there is no doubt that the words of warning expressed by the UN Human Rights Committee really ring true in respect of it. The woman in question was treated as, and shown to be, no more than a vessel in the eyes of the State. The legislation in this area has been deemed to be absolutely inadequate in the context of dealing with the very graphic circumstances in this case, which are similar to those of the X case. A woman whose life was in danger and who needed and abortion was not able to get one under the legislation, it is as simple as that. The UN highlighted the fact the way in which the legislation is structured has led to excessive scrutiny of women by members of the medical profession. In essence, the chilling effect remains.

The Minister is a young man and he should wise up. Ireland's abortion rate is pretty much the same as in every other country. This matter has affected all Irish families, whether they know it or not. The only thing that is different is that women are not allowed to avail of the relevant medical treatment at home and surrounded by their families and friends. What this means is that women and couples in situations of crisis pregnancy who have money can access abortion for all of the many and different reasons - none of them easy, all of them valid - that arise. Women and couples who cannot access it either have babies or take risks. That is simply not acceptable in a modern society. Even some of the Government's own backbenchers have realised that we need to face up to this disgusting hypocrisy and legislate for abortion at home.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Can the Government continue to ignore the fact that approximately ten women leave this island each day in order to end crisis pregnancies? Can it continue to ignore the fact that an unknown number of women illegally import abortion pills and risk a 14-year prison sentence by so doing because they are so desperate to end their pregnancies? Does the Government feel any obligation towards these women? No woman of childbearing age had a say in the 1983 referendum. The people of Ireland have never voted to make our abortion laws less restrictive, even though opinion polls have consistently shown that views on abortion have become far more liberal during the past three decades. Does the Government have the courage to face up to its responsibility towards women and hold a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment of the Constitution? The Minister stated that this will not happen. I find it difficult to believe that he can just dismiss the possibility out of hand. A number of Government Deputies have stated that the issue needs to be revisited but not within the lifetime of this Dáil. What is the point of being in power if one is not going to use one's power to good effect? I do not see the point of being in office if one is prepared to leave it to the next Government to take action. Is the current Government more focused on the next election than it is on the suffering caused by the denial of services to women who are seeking abortions as a result of rape, incest, fatal foetal abnormalities or serious risks to their health? The former certainly appears to be the case, which is just too bad.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

There is no doubt that we must wait for the report on this particular case. When it is forthcoming, we will put questions to the Minister and his colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, regarding their knowledge of events. I am particularly interested in discovering whether the Minister for Justice and Equality knew about this case when she was questioned, and subsequently condemned, by the UN Human Rights Committee and said nothing about it.

The Minister is correct. The constitutional ban on abortion is the problem. As long as a grown woman is equated with a foetus, we will continue to have major difficulties. That women are so degraded in this way by the Constitution is the problem. The ban must go because as long as it is in place, there can be no humane provision of abortion in this country.

The referendums lined up to take place in the spring include one on marriage equality. We could easily have a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment on the same day as the marriage equality referendum. In fact, it would be a double endorsement of progress in this country. It would be a signal to the rest of the world that the Catholic Church's writ does not run despite the wishes of the majority in society and it would be a hammer blow to the Catholic Church's domination of many areas of life in this country. The For Reproductive rights, against Oppression, Sexism & Austerity, ROSA, campaign and Socialist Party Deputies will be calling for a referendum to be held on the same day. It makes absolute sense. The people are coming out to vote and this is a crucial topic that they would like to have a say in. The referendums could be held at that time.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

There are several issues. I am pleased that we are all agreed that we are not discussing this individual case, because if it transpires or turns out that one of the factors of this case was that this young woman's confidentiality was breached at some point, then that is truly awful in its own right. I believe it is wrong, under any circumstances, to jump to conclusions about any individual case until we know the facts. One of the things that disappointed me about this case was hearing so many voices on the radio in the initial days saying so many things that were factually incorrect. I heard that from both sides of the abortion debate as well as from several State-funded bodies, which, quite frankly, should know better in respect of their utterances.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Her wishes were ignored. We know that much.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

In her original contribution Deputy Daly used the expression "never again". I understand where she is coming from in that regard but the sad truth is - this is the truth - it will never be possible to pass legislation that can prevent all tragedies related to pregnancy or abortion. Even if we had liberal legislation, like in the United States or the United Kingdom, for example, we would still have the dilemma of late-term pregnancies, that is, people who are 25, 26 or 27 weeks' pregnant seeking a termination. That happens. That dilemma occurs in the United Kingdom all the time.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

She asked for one at eight weeks.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Thankfully, it does not make the newspapers. Furthermore, even if we did have abortion on request in this country, we would then have the tragedy of people who can die as a result of a termination of pregnancy - that happens; it is rare but it does happen - as well as people who are injured or who lose their ability to reproduce in future.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

That happens when they cannot have an abortion as well.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

All of these things are rare but they do happen.

When we have the debate about this matter in this country, I hope that we do not shout each other down and interrupt each other. The problem with this debate in this country is that it has been dominated by the extremes and it is framed in the Catholic versus anti-Catholic view of things rather than what is right and what is wrong. It is framed in terms of Christian ideology versus socialist ideology, being pro-life or anti-life, being pro-choice or anti-choice, as if one could ever reduce it to that. Human experience is not black and white and medicine is not black and white either. The idea that there could ever be perfect legislation that removes all tragedies related to pregnancy and abortion is simply wrong.

Reference was made to the eighth amendment. People calling for its repeal should consider what that means. Simply repealing the eighth amendment means deleting from the Constitution any protection of the life of the mother and the unborn and replacing it with nothing. People need to consider whether that is what they want and whether they want to replace it with a different amendment, for example. Even if we do change the Constitution, it will not change the legislation. The law would not change at all and we would then need to legislate subsequently. I believe it would be a really bad idea in 2015 in the run-in to a general election for us to have that kind of debate in that milieu. We have been there before. That is exactly what happened in 1983. People were put in a position where they made commitments in the run-in to a general election that perhaps they should not have made. Let us not repeat the mistakes of 1983 and have all of that again in 2015. There is a time and a place, I believe, for a considered non-ideological debate and conversation on this matter in this country, but it should not be done on foot of a tragedy or a very hard case and it should not be done in the run-in to a general election.

The Dáil adjourned at 3.45 p.m. until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 23 September 2014.