Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 30 Sep 2014

Vol. 852 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 16, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Kingdom of Belgium) Order 2014 (back from committee); No. 17, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and Capital Gains) (Kingdom of Thailand) Order 2014 (back from committee); No. 18, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income and on Capital) (Grand Duchy of Luxembourg) Order 2014 (back from committee); No. 19, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Botswana) Order 2014 (back from committee); No. 20, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Double Taxation Relief (Taxes on Income) (Kingdom of Denmark) Order 2014 (back from committee); and No. 5, Registration of Lobbying Bill 2014 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 16 to 20, inclusive, shall be decided without debate and shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair. Private Members’ business shall be No. 160, motion re direct provision. Tomorrow’s business after Oral Questions shall be No. 5, Registration of Lobbying Bill 2014 - Second Stage (resumed); No. 6, European Stability Mechanism (Amendment) Bill 2014 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage; and No. 30, Public Health (Standardised Packaging of Tobacco) Bill 2014 [Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There is one proposal to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 16 to 20, inclusive - motions re proposed approval of double taxation relief orders 2014 for the Kingdom of Belgium, the Kingdom of Thailand, the Grand Duchy of Luxembourg, Botswana and the Kingdom of Denmark - without debate agreed to?

Deputy Joe Higgins

It is not agreed. The Taoiseach is proposing to ram through the House without debate double taxation relief agreements with five countries on the day that the European Union Commission, which is as right-wing and neoliberal a body as one could find, says that successive Irish Governments have allowed Apple, a major multinational, to siphon off billions of euro from the Irish taxpayer into private corporate profits to satisfy corporate greed? This is being proposed on the very day we are told that an average family of four over-18s will have a new water tax in this State of almost €500 per year. Irish Water says it will be €483 for four people aged 18 or over, based on data that Irish Water has not shared with us - we do not know where it comes from - which states that the average usage is 88 litres per person per day, when the two major studies sponsored by governments show an average usage of 148 litres per person per day, and Denmark, which is by far the most efficient country, has a usage of 114 litres per person per day. There has been a very significant under-estimation of usage. From tomorrow, families of four and more will face anything up to €1,000 per year in a savage new austerity tax to continue the bailout of bankers and bondholders.

I do not want to let this proposal go through without debate. I want a debate on why this Government allows multinationals to walk away with billions when working-class people, low and middle-income workers, students, pensioners and the unemployed are saddled with a savage new austerity double taxation. I agree with double taxation relief agreements, but let us start with the Irish taxpayer. When this week will the House be afforded an opportunity for a major debate on this new draconian imposition on our people and on tax fiddling by multinationals? Then we can agree to the proposal.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are dealing with the proposal for the first items.

Deputy Micheál Martin

These are specific double taxation agreements which do not relate to the broader debate about international and global taxation models. However, I asked before the summer recess for a comprehensive debate, because there seems to be a determined effort to undermine Ireland's ability to have an independent taxation regime which is fully in compliance with international tax law. We cannot sort out the world on our own. I have witnessed over the years the prevarication on climate change and the global inability of countries to sign off on agreements designed to copperfasten a regime for dealing with climate change. How are we to anticipate that the same will not happen with regard to a very tight and equally applicable global taxation regime? If that is the case, we need to be careful about how we proceed. I remind the House that 166,000 people work in multinationals in Ireland.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Some Deputies tend to ignore that in any contribution they make on this subject. A total of 4,200 people have been working in Apple in Cork city since 1981, in good-quality jobs-----

Deputy Joe Higgins

If small businesses pay tax-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

Small businesses get a lot from the multinational companies in Ireland in terms of bioscience, life sciences, instrumentation and service provision. A raft of industries have grown as a result of that multinational investment. It is a bit more complex and subtle than it is sometimes presented in this House, and we need to be careful. The OECD is an important body but it does not have international jurisdiction; it is an advisory body which can make recommendations and undertake research. However, I am conscious of the fact - and surprised - that of late it has become the stormtrooper-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is because Deputy Martin did the deal.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----for the G20 countries. That is because some of them are strapped for cash now. It is not our fault that the United States has the tax regime it decided to have-----

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and it does its deals-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We are not having a debate now.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----with China and it will do its deals with Japan and with Asia, just as many other countries will do.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Joe wants us to be like Cuba.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We may have to reform, but should we do so on our own, oblivious to the actual realities of the global economic model, whether we like it or not? There is much I dislike about globalisation - wage rates across the world, the absence of any conformity with health and safety requirements and the lack of any adherence to consumer rights.

Let us introduce a dose of realism to this debate. I put it to the Taoiseach that the UK Prime Minister, David Cameron, was out of order at a Conservative Party conference to have a cut off Ireland-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

He should keep out of our business.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

He was completely out of order. Let us be under no illusion that all the Prime Minister wants is our jobs. He wants the 166,000 jobs that are in this country to go to the United Kingdom. He wants Apple in the United Kingdom.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is enough.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The anti-inversion laws in the United States are motivated by British moves in recent times, such as the patent box, which the Commission is also investigating. The British Government needs to look at its own house before it starts lecturing Ireland. I hope the Taoiseach will give that message to Mr. Cameron in no uncertain terms. I have no difficulty-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Martin, in fairness, these are brief contributions. We are discussing the proposal for dealing with Nos. 16 to 20.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I oppose Deputy Higgins's proposition.

Deputy Joe Higgins

The Deputy should cross the floor-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will allow this proposal on the basis that we have a comprehensive debate on the overall issue of the international tax regime, the global tax situation and our strategy in responding to the most recent OECD measures and the moves of the G20.

We need to know the direction in which this matter is going and must adopt a cautious approach to it. The Commission has issued an opinion and there is a long road to travel in respect of it. Let us not just accept everything with absolute acquiescence.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Deputy Micheál Martin can just tell us what was involved. His party did the deals in question.

Deputy Joe Higgins

And not one word about the €500 families cannot afford to pay.

The Taoiseach

These matters were discussed by the Select sub-Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform last week. The select sub-committee did not take a vote on them. Ireland has double taxation agreements with 71 countries. It is important to state it participated fully in the discussions which took place at the European Council meeting on the OECD's response on the base erosion profit-shifting issue. While I have a very good relationship with the British Prime Minister, I am aware that the Tory Party conference is taking place. The OECD's report is now available and decisions must be made on what is the best option to take. The Minister for Finance is giving very careful consideration to that matter.

It is true that 166,000 people work for multinationals with operations in Ireland. I had the privilege of opening a section of the Apple plant in Cork, at which an extraordinary number of very highly qualified people work. The same applies at other locations throughout the country. We should not forget this.

It is important to say - regardless of whatever decision is made - that the report did not focus to any extent on the rate tax involved - 12.5%.

Deputy Joe Higgins

That is because it is never levied at 12.5%.

The Taoiseach

In Ireland's case - as is the position with all other countries - whatever global decisions are made and when the elements beyond the corporation tax rate are stripped away, there are still exceptional opportunities in terms of our talent pool, track record and technology. I have no problem in conceding to a comprehensive debate on this issue which is fundamentally important in the context of the economy, lines of foreign direct investment and exports. The Whip will make the arrangements for the holding of such a debate when it is appropriate to do so.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 16 to 20, inclusive, be agreed to", put and declared carried.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have previously raised with the Taoiseach on the Order of Business the issue of extreme obesity and the lack of funding available for surgery for those who are at high risk in this regard. As he is aware, funding stopped halfway through the year. It has now emerged that, instead of funding operations in St. Vincent's University Hospital in Dublin and University Hospital Galway, the HSE is flying patients to the United Kingdom for surgical treatment at a cost of €15,000. The cost of such operations here is approximately €10,000. I am sure the Taoiseach will agree that this makes no economic sense whatsoever. Is he in a position to confirm that this issue will be examined in order that surgery might be performed here rather than in the United Kingdom? In that context, when will the health reform Bill be published? The question of obesity is one of fundamental concern in the context of the future.

The Children and Family Relationships Bill was originally published in draft form by the former Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Alan Shatter, last January and welcomed by most, including the then Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, who issued a press release at the time in which she stated this complex and sensitive legislation would assist in making all children equal. In her current capacity as Minister for Justice and Equality, however, she published the actual Children and Family Relationships Bill on Friday last and has excluded the section on surrogacy. In January the Government - through the former Minister, Deputy Alan Shatter - launched the general scheme of the Bill which included a section that would have provided legal clarity on the parentage of children born through assisted human reproduction and surrogacy and granted "court oversight in the making of declarations of parentage in order to ensure future arrangements consensual, altruistic and non-commercial". Surrogacy was mentioned on 97 occasions in the general scheme published in January, but there is not one reference to it in the Bill published on Friday last. On promised legislation, the Government previously indicated that the issue of surrogacy would be dealt with. Why has the section contained in the original general scheme been excluded from the Bill published by the Minister, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald? When can we expect the promised legislation on surrogacy?

Reports today indicate that the banks are lending up to four and a half times the combined incomes of couples seeking to purchase houses. These reports do not make for very comfortable reading. House prices in Dublin are rising fast and are currently up by 25%. There is going to be a continued shortage of housing. People are going to be pushed into extreme positions and further mortgage distress if there is no intervention on the part of the Government. When can we expect the credit guarantee (amendment) Bill to be published? Are there further proposed legislative measures to deal with the housing issue?

The Taoiseach

The credit guarantee (amendment) Bill is due this session. Under its regulations, the ECB does not allow banks to lend more than 60% of what is required. I find the report which indicates that the banks here are lending up to four and a half times a couple's combined income extraordinary. We will obtain a report on the matter. The Bill, as stated, will be published this session. I may have referred earlier to the fact that yesterday the combined Cabinet sub-committee considered the question of mortgages and extra opportunities for credit. Incentives are to be considered in the context of getting the construction sector moving.

I have not seen the reports on patients being flown to Britain or other countries in order to have operations relating to obesity. I will obtain a report on the matter for the Deputy.

The Children and Family Relationships Bill was cleared and published last week. The Bill is necessary in order that we might have a clear run at the marriage equality referendum due to be held next year. The Government is not afraid to tackle the issue of surrogacy. However, it must be remembered that this is an exceptionally complex area. I am concerned that if it is dealt with in the context of the Children and Family Relationships Bill, the process would be delayed and it would not be possible to ask a clear question in the context of the marriage equality referendum. I will obtain an update for the Deputy on the nature of the complexities that have to be dealt with in this instance. From what I have heard, it is exceptionally difficult to deal with this matter in any short-term fashion. Ireland is a particular case in point in the context of surrogacy, particularly in view of the lack of regulation here. It is important that we get it right.

Deputy Gerry Adams

On the commitments contained in the programme for Government and in the context of the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997, it has emerged - in response to a query from an Teachta Pearse Doherty - that a Minister of the Government, the Attorney General or a Minister of State who maintains a second residence shall be granted a deduction in respect of water charges under the dual abode allowance provision. Effectively, this means that Ministers such as the Taoiseach will pay no water charges in respect of their second homes. This on a day when citizens will be shocked to hear that their water bills will be vastly higher than the Government previously signalled.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is legislation promised in this area?

Deputy Gerry Adams

That is the question to which I am coming. In keeping with the commitment in the programme for Government in respect of political reform, does the Government have any intention of amending the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997?

The Taoiseach

I stay in a small apartment not far from here and received my notice from Irish Water. I do not believe the apartment is metered, unless it is done on a central basis. I have been asking questions about the matter. Obviously, I intend to pay whatever my water charge will be. I have not come across an arrangement for amending the Taxes Consolidation Act 1997. However, I will obtain a report on the matter for the Deputy.

Deputy Mick Wallace

When will the heads of the health reform Bill be published? A great many reforms are required in the health sector.

On Tuesday last week outside Wexford General Hospital four ambulances were queueing to deliver patients but there were not enough staff in the hospital at the time to take in the patients. There are only five ambulances in the county. Surely the scenario of four of them queueing to deliver patients and not enough staff in the hospital to take them is unacceptable.

The Taoiseach

The health reform Bill is a major piece of work that the Minister is looking at. There are several blockages in the system in respect of patients being taken in. This is about hospital management, as Deputy Wallace is well aware. Over the coming period the new Minister for Health will report on the progress of the health reform Bill and perhaps bring the committee up-to-date. Deputy Wallace could inquire by way of a Topical Issue or a question in the House. I will advise the Minister of Deputy Wallace's interest in the question.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I want to ask about two tranches of legislation. One is the long-awaited Construction Contracts Bill, which we have heard so much noise about. Many small businesses have been forced out of business and this is continuing. It is farcical at this stage that the Bill is not yet introduced.

In the justice area there is a plan to establish a dedicated family court structure. There have been three cases recently where the courts have locked out family members, colleagues and other supporters in cases where the banks are trying to repossess people's homes. It happened in Waterford yesterday, it happened in Trim already and it has happened before in Dublin. People are entitled to justice. The courts locked out members of the National Union of Journalists and members of the press, who I am not here to speak for. Anyway, justice should be carried out in public. Is this coming from Government or where is it coming from? The banks are doing dirty work and are getting obstructed by people genuinely making their case in the court, standing up and defending themselves. In many cases they cannot afford legal representatives. When family members and friends tried to go in yesterday they were locked out and treated like criminals. This is an alarming situation. I call on the Taoiseach, the Minister for Finance and the Minister for Justice and Equality to deal with the matter. It is simply not good enough that people are not allowed to attend court. These are family members and those who want to support people in a lay capacity.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We will get the Taoiseach to respond.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is making them look as if they are going to cause trouble. They have no intention of causing trouble. They are defending their homes.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have ten more speakers.

The Taoiseach

The Construction Contracts Bill has gone through the Houses, as Deputy McGrath is aware, but I gather the implementation body is not fully operational yet. I assume the Deputy is referring to a recent dispute with a construction firm not too far from here. I will send Deputy McGrath an up-to-date report on the current situation.

There is no date for the publication of the family courts Bill as yet.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

My first question is on the broadcasting amendment Bill. Following the Government's introduction of the very unfair water tax, is it now proposing to drop the broadcasting levy that it was to introduce?

My second question relates to the health reform Bill. I remind the Taoiseach of the crisis that is going on in our hospitals, including Kerry General Hospital, where the nurses are under extremely tough and difficult pressure to try to take care of patients every day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

More funds need to be provided to the HSE so that our hospitals will be able to carry out their work. It is an impossible situation at present. The Taoiseach and the new Minister for Health will have to address this issue.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call on the Taoiseach to reply.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Nurses are really under pressure every day.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call the Taoiseach to reply.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am asking under the health reform Bill. This Government made a great many promises in the programme for Government. Will the Taoiseach honour the promises he made in the programme for Government?

The Taoiseach

The broadcasting Bill is due for early next year.

The health situation is always challenging, especially with a very substantial overrun this year. The Minister, Deputy Varadkar, is now engaged with officials from his Department as well as the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and his officials to try to work out the best option for the budget for 2015. I have already answered Deputy Wallace in respect of the health reform Bill. I do not have a date for it. It is one of the major restructuring elements of the health system.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

When is it expected to take the next stage of the Roads Bill? The Bill allows for the amalgamation of the Railway Procurement Agency and the National Roads Authority. Specifically, it will allow for preplanning consultations to take place between the NRA and An Bord Pleanála in advance of the construction of roads. In the recent past we have seen in places like Adare, County Limerick, that when preplanning consultations were not allowed, An Bord Pleanála refused to allow permission to be granted for the route of the bypass. We anticipate that the new Bill will rectify that issue. When is the next stage proposed to be taken?

The Taoiseach

That is waiting to go to committee for Committee Stage. The Department will normally contact the committee and make arrangements for the relevant sections to be dealt with. I will advise the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport of the Deputy's request and see what its contact with the committee is.

Deputy Seamus Healy

In June, some weeks after the local elections, the Taoiseach came to the House and agreed that his Government would restore medical cards to people who had lost them. These were people who had held them on discretionary medical grounds. The process was to take three weeks. It is now four months later and there are still thousands of people who have not had their cards restored. When will that process finish? When will the committee of experts that was set up at the time to address this issue report? Has it reported? Will the report be placed before the House? In particular, when will the cards be restored to the thousands of people who, four months later, still have not got their cards back?

The Taoiseach

I thought the vast majority of people had had their cards restored following the Government decision. As I understand it, the Minister has not yet received the Keane report into the matter but it is due to be sent to him shortly. Obviously, he will examine that, assess the report's analysis and findings and bring it before Government and the House in due course.

Deputy Seamus Kirk

Is the Taoiseach aware of the new phenomenon that has arisen known as petrol stretching?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is there legislation on this?

Deputy Seamus Kirk

I want to know about the legislation. Fuel is being tampered with to derive more profit. Is it necessary for the Minister for Finance to introduce legislation to allow for unannounced inspections of retail outlets to try to tackle this problem? There are serious financial implications for car owners. Engines are being damaged and they have had to be replaced in many vehicles.

The Taoiseach

Some 500 engines have blown in the west because of this. Deputies Mulherin and O'Mahony raised this as a Topical Issue some weeks ago. If Deputy Kirk reads the Official Report he will find the response and the action that is being taken to deal with it. I understand that was two weeks ago.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The criminal law (sexual offences) Bill is promised for this session. It is to protect children and vulnerable persons against sexual exploitation and abuse. Is it intended to have the legislation passed by the end of this session?

Another Bill which I have raised in the past is the bail Bill, the imminence of which seems to have dropped in recent times. Notwithstanding that compelling reasons for a review of the bail laws abide as much as ever, what is likely to happen in respect of that Bill? Is it likely to come before the House within the next 12 months? Is it likely to be passed?

The Taoiseach

The criminal law (sexual offences) Bill is due this session. I hope that it might get through and be passed but it depends on the backlog of legislation to be dealt with.

The heads of the bail Bill have been approved but I cannot give Deputy Durkan a date for it.

Deputy Robert Troy

Two budgets ago the Government introduced an increase to the pupil-teacher ratio for all schools with four teachers or fewer. This is having a detrimental effect on many schools in rural Ireland and those of minority faiths. This was done in advance of the Department carrying out an independent evaluation on the schools. I understand the Department has had the report for the past 18 months or more. The relevant Minister is beside the Taoiseach in the House. Can the Taoiseach confirm when the report will be laid before the House? When will all Members have an opportunity to discuss the report?

My second point relates to a promise the Government made in the programme for Government in respect of care of older people and community care.

It states: "Investment in the supply of more and better care for older people in the community and in residential settings will be a priority for this Government". Can I ask, with regard to St. Christopher's Care Centre, Longford-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No.

Deputy Robert Troy

This is a relevant point.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I am sure the Deputy can raise this another way.

Deputy Robert Troy

The centre provides services for more than 200 adults and children with an intellectual disability. Because of savage cutbacks over the past number of years, it is running the risk of having to close two community houses. The centre has a deficit of €450,000-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should raise this as a Topical Issue. I would be glad to hear from him.

Deputy Robert Troy

I am sorry. When I try to raise this issue by way of parliamentary question, it is referred to the HSE, a body the Government was going to abolish. When will the Government take responsibility for the consequences its budgetary decisions are having on the people affected by them?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will ask the Taoiseach to respond to the first two questions.

Deputy Robert Troy

More than 20 senior citizens with an intellectual disability face having their care home closed, and when I ask the relevant Minister about this I am not being answered.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy can raise it in another way.

The Taoiseach

The value for money report to which the Deputy referred was commissioned by his party when it was last in government. The Minister has the report and will consider it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government has had it for more than a year.

The Taoiseach

The Minister is dealing with the matter of small schools in the first Topical Issue shortly. I do not know the details of St. Christopher's Care Centre. I understand the Deputy will raise that by way of parliamentary question or Topical Issue. I will mention to the Minister for Health that the Deputy has raised it on the Order of Business.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

I would like to ask about the programme for Government commitment to "open up the budget process to the full glare of public scrutiny in a way that restores confidence and stability by exposing and cutting failing programmes and pork barrel politics". Will the Taoiseach consider giving time in the House to a debate on the budgetary positions of the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, the IMF and the European Commission, all of which have expressed concern at the Government's stated budgetary policy and are clearly at odds with the Government's intentions in the budget, which is due in the next few weeks? We are in the extraordinary position in which the chairman of the independent fiscal council is threatening resignation because he is so frustrated at having that body's advice repeatedly ignored by the Government. Will the Taoiseach consider a transparent, open debate in this Chamber and at the Joint Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform in advance of the budget to ensure that the views of those bodies are heard, that both Opposition and Government Members can be heard and that the Government can have an opportunity to explain itself in advance of the budget and not after the fact?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy raised a valid point. The Irish Fiscal Advisory Council is independent and it was set up by Government to be objective and provide independent analysis of its view of the state of the nation economically. The Deputy will have read the report and the recommendations of the council. The same applies in respect of the IMF, the Commission and many other financial institutions and financial houses that make their views known on the economy as it evolves. At the end of the day, the Government has to make political decisions-----

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

It is the Parliament, actually.

The Taoiseach

-----and we are in the process of preparing for the budget on 14 October. The Deputy's request is that the finance committee should discuss this.

Deputy Lucinda Creighton

Or have a full debate in the Chamber.

The Taoiseach

We have a pretty packed legislative agenda, but I will report to the Chairman of the finance committee. There is no objection here at all. These are all public reports. There are many different views even within them as to what decisions should be taken. The Government will sit down and make decisions at the end of the day and that has got to be done in the next week to ten days. I will inform the chairman of the committee.