Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Nov 2014

Vol. 857 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Dara Calleary

I am sure the Ceann Comhairle will acknowledge the passing of our former colleague and Minister, Joe Walsh. Our thoughts on this, the day of his funeral, are with his wife, Marie, and his family. I know there will be time again to recognise his immense contribution to Irish public life.

A senior civil servant has submitted a dossier to the Committee of Public Accounts and to members of the committee under the new Protected Disclosures Act 2014. The allegations reported to be contained within the dossier are serious and they deserve to be treated as such. While I understand the Taoiseach may be constrained in commenting on the specific allegations, it is important that we discuss the timeline of events since the allegations were first made a number of years ago. Will he confirm that the allegations contained in the dossier were originally referred to the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement, the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, the Revenue Commissioners and the tribunals that were in place at the time in 2005? Will he also confirm again to the House the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation's statement this morning that the full dossier as presented to the Committee of Public Accounts has been referred to the appropriate authorities today? Will he outline which authorities received the most up-to-date dossier under the current disclosure?

The Taoiseach

I would like on behalf of the Government to express our sympathy to the wife and family of the late Joe Walsh.

I know, a Cheann Comhairle, that we will have an opportunity for expressions of sympathy at a later date. At a time when farmers are blockading meat plants I am sure the spirit of the late Joe Walsh will be looking on benignly in that he had been there before. He was a man for whom I had great admiration and with whom I had a very good friendship over many years. We will deal appropriately with this at a later time.

In response to the issue raised by Deputy Calleary, this is the first whistleblower to produce documentation under the protected disclosures legislation, which is a major piece of reform that I very much welcome and in respect of which the whistleblower must be protected. The Deputy asked if the matter was first referred to the agencies in 2005. The answer to that question is, "Yes". In respect of the witness statement, that was requested originally by the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation. It has now been cleared by the Department and the Minister and has been sent to the Garda Bureau of Fraud Investigation, as requested by the whistleblower in the first instance.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply. I welcome the protected disclosures legislation. We all do. This is its first case. It will be interesting to see how it is treated. I would like to raise a couple of issues. Can the Taoiseach confirm if the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, met with the civil servant involved prior to the submission in the past few days of the current file? I note the Taoiseach's reference to his notes. Has he discussed this matter with the Minister, Deputy Bruton, since it first arose last Thursday at the Committee of Public Accounts? Given the serious allegations in regard to the management of this information within the Department, has the Taoiseach sought a formal meeting with the Minister, Deputy Bruton, or officials from his Department in regard to the handling of this file?

The Taoiseach

No, the Minister, Deputy Bruton, did not meet with the whistleblower. The Minister issued a statement saying he was willing to meet the whistleblower, to which I understand the whistleblower has responded indicating that he would be glad to do so. I have not seen the statement from the whistleblower but I understand that is what was said and I hope that can be so.

I was briefed last Saturday by the Minister, Deputy Bruton, on the timeline in respect of the preparation of the witness statement and on the fact that work had been delayed owing to retirements, that that work was ongoing and would be released soon. It has now been released.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Ar dtús, ba mhaith liom fosta comhbhrón a dhéanamh le Fianna Fáil agus le teaghlach an Uasail Joe Walsh, a fuair bás. Go ndéanfaidh Dia trócaire air.

Ba mhaith liom, ar ábhar eile, mo thacaíocht a thabhairt do na mic léinn a bheidh ag caint as Gaeilge ar feadh 24 uair ar fud na tíre. Tá súil agam go leanfaidh siad ar aghaidh.

Ach níl an t-uisce imithe fós. I want to ask the Taoiseach about the issue of water bills for families awaiting them in trepidation, which issue has still not be sorted out. The anxieties and stress of families has been increased by the Government's unwillingness, even yet, to tell them how much they are to be forced to pay. If this incompetence on behalf of Government was not bad enough we have now learned that Irish Water will fix only the first leak that occurs in a householder's garden. Leaks inside the home or a second leak in a garden will be the sole responsibility of the householder, who will also be forced - this is quite bizarre - to pay for thousands of gallons of leaked water as well as any damage caused by such leaks. If a plumber came to my house to fix a leak and did not do so properly I would be sending for him to fix it as opposed to having to pick up the bill through his incompetence. If this is not bad enough we have also learned that insurance companies are saying that they will limit the liability to householders who face these major bills as a result of burst pipes. Does the Taoiseach believe that this is acceptable?

The Taoiseach will be aware that tens of thousands and scores of other thousands of people throughout this State are protesting and have stated very clearly that they cannot afford to pay this water tax. Perhaps the Taoiseach will set out the Government's position in relation to families being hit with massive bills for water leaks and who are to be denied insurance cover.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Park it.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams seems to want to change the rules all the time. He used the words "níl an t-uisce imithe". Séard a tháinig isteach i m'aigne ná go raibh sé ag caint faoi uisce faoi thalamh.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Tá a lán uisce faoi thalamh.

The Taoiseach

Tá a fhios aige go maith go bhfuil neart uisce ag imeacht faoi thalamh, suas le 40% den uisce atá cruthaithe ar dtús. Is é sin fáth amháin go bhfuil, agus gur cóir go mbeadh, comhlacht cosúil le hUisce Éireann ann chun infheistíocht a chur ar bun agus é sin a réiteach.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Freagair an cheist.

Deputy Brian Stanley

Múinteoir.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams referred to trepidation and the fear of families. It is important to note that Irish Water has issued a statement clearly stating that irrespective of whether a person has a water meter the first leak between the meter on the road and the gable on the house will be fixed by it free of charge. I do not know where Deputy Adams has been living in the sense that if there is a water leak inside one's house it is the local plumber rather than Irish Water that one should call. If there is a leak between the meter and the wall of the house, one should also call the plumber. Irish Water will fix the first leak on the private property of the house owner. Thereafter, it is the local plumber that one calls.

I want to put Deputy Adams's mind at ease. The Deputy and members of his party, even though they might have been in far away fields, have been putting out headlines around the country that people will be paying €1,500, €2,000 or €2,500 for their water. That is the kind of fear they are spreading among the population.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

Who said that?

Deputy Brian Stanley

Where was that said?

The Taoiseach

I have had people from Sligo report to me that members of the Deputy's party have been saying that all of the contributions that come from people will go towards paying German banks. They are becoming more imaginative in their assessments here.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Those assessments are gone to their heads.

The Taoiseach

Government will deal with this matter next week and will put at ease people's fears and concerns. We will deal with the issues that the people have raised and the concerns and anxieties they have expressed. We will bring about a resolution to this matter which will be clear, fair, affordable, accountable and will address the many issues that have been raised with Deputies on all sides of the House and by way of protests around the country over the last number of weeks. It is important to listen to and hear controversy but it is more important to act on it. That is what Government will do next week.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Spin time.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Government created the mess. Listening to the Taoiseach's answers, I am reminded of Flann O'Brien who would be stretched to write such creative pieces of prose.

I asked the Taoiseach about insurance companies' proposals to limit liability but he did not answer it. I have a further question. The Taoiseach will recall that the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, was forced to abandon the threat by former Minister, Phil Hogan, that those who could not or would not pay the water tax would have their water reduced to a trickle. I recall the Taoiseach also saying that to me here. That seems to have gone away. However, the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has refused to rule out the option of the Revenue Commissioners going after those citizens who cannot pay water charges. The Taoiseach has also failed to rule out the Department of Social Protection deducting water charges from people's social welfare payments. Perhaps the Taoiseach, who continually speaks about clarity and the need for it, would take this opportunity to clear up this issue today. Will the Taoiseach state, with the clarity he espouses, that under no circumstances will the Government use the threat of the Revenue Commissioners to take money from people's hard earned wages to pay the water tax?

Will he also say with the transparency, clarity and clearness of which he is so praiseworthy that those in receipt of social welfare will not have money taken directly from their payments to pay his unwanted, unjust and widely rejected tax.

The Taoiseach

As I said to the Deputy last week, he supports everybody who pays, who does not pay and who cannot pay. It is true that because of particular circumstances there is always a coterie of people who would find it very difficult to make any payment. We have had difficulties in the past with various other schemes and there has always been a facility to deal with that.

The insurance companies have been vocal about leaks in the houses, in particular in winter time when pipes can burst. This is always, and has always been, a feature of insurance for homes and houses and people have become very used to taking precautions, depending on the severity of the winter, so that pipes would not burst and leaks would not occur when they are away. The concern is not really an imaginary hundreds of thousands of litres of water leaking but the destruction of the house. A very small amount of water can destroy houses which have been carefully looked after by the people who own them. One would hope that would not happen, that people would take precautions and that the internal water systems in their homes would be capable of withstanding heavy frost or whatever. It is the destruction of the house and its contents which is always of interest here.

As I said, we will deal with all of these questions next week-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

And Revenue.

The Taoiseach

-----and Revenue and social welfare. We will deal with all of these questions next week. In terms of governance, the management, the structure, the call-outs and all of the issues raised by people, the Government has listened very carefully to what they have had to say and we will deal with it comprehensively and fairly next week. Far from the €1,500 to €2,000, about which some of Deputy Adams's people around the country have been talking, even he will get a pleasant dose of reality for once.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

That is three of Deputy Adams's dinners.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Free dinners.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Catherine Murphy.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The Taoiseach has woken up out of a coma.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are not Deputy Catherine Murphy, are you?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I am not.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have called her. Would you mind letting her speak?

The Taoiseach

De Valera had free beef, Deputy Adams has something else.

Deputy Brian Stanley

There is nothing free from the Blueshirts.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I wish to convey the sympathy of the Technical Group to the family of the late Joe Walsh.

This week the Government employed its best agenda strategies to try to detract public attention from Irish Water and, to a certain extent, it has succeeded. It is no longer the leading headline in the news but the Government should not confuse the media narrative with public sentiment. There is nobody on the street or who answers a door on which one knocks who will not raise this issue. This is not about a small number of people but about the large numbers who were out protesting. This is a general reaction from people.

The figures of €80, €200, €240, €500 or take one's pick are the kinds of figures raised over the past few months but three weeks before the deadline when forms must be submitted, people do not know what they are signing up to. This morning we heard about the insurance implications. We did not have the time to consider them because the legislation was rammed through so quickly. With three weeks to register, people have no idea what they will pay, what the cost will be to run Irish Water and how the 49% of water leaking will be reduced. People also have fears in regard to the handing over of personal data. These issues are as relevant today as they were when they were first raised.

In the past week, Irish Water has for the third time issued a new data protection statement which is buried in its website. It hardly measures up to the requirement of facilitating informed consent. A letter sent to me by the former Data Protection Commissioner states that the Water Services Act was designed so as to circumvent existing data protection legislation, meaning that normal restrictions which would and should apply have in the case of Irish Water been set aide. Even some of the Taoiseach's backbenchers are advising people not to include their PPS numbers on the Irish Water form. Clearly, they do not have confidence in Irish Water's ability to securely handle that personal data. Does the Taoiseach have confidence? Does he accept there are legitimate concerns in regard to the requirement to hand over PPS numbers? Will he end that process? Does he agree that asking people to register for something which they have no idea how much it will cost is deeply unfair? Does the Taoiseach have confidence in Irish Water?

The Taoiseach

There is no question of attempting to detract attention from the issue of Irish Water. It has been debated up and down the country ad nauseam for a number of weeks and there has been so much misinformation and inaccuracy out there that is has lent itself to the confusion and anxiety people have.

Deputy Joe Higgins

That is rubbish.

The Taoiseach

That is why all of the issues which have been raised will be dealt with by Government next week.

The structure, as currently applies, in respect of PPS numbers is for versification of eligibility for a household allowance. In respect of children, the PPS number requirement is for two purposes only, namely, to validate that it is a legitimate PPS number and that it refers to a child. It is not for names or locations in that sense. All of these matters, including PPS numbers, bonuses, management, communications and so on, will be dealt with comprehensively next week.

I was in Galway yesterday.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We saw that.

The Taoiseach

The point I would make to Deputy Finian McGrath is that Irish Water has not told the story that it is very beneficial for many areas. For instance, in the waste water treatment plant in Galway, the reconfiguration of the major contract saves €100,000 per month. Irish Water has identified the solution for Williamstown in east Galway where 1,000 people got boil water notices last week. Deputy Ray Butler reported to me that the overflow from the waste water treatment plant in Trim, County Meath, destroyed elements of the water system. It cannot go on like this.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The Government is not spending money dealing with it. It is all going to Irish Water.

The Taoiseach

It is not just about fixing the leaks but about investing properly for the future. There are 850 treatment plants around the country, 500 of which are inadequate and inferior. This city is on a knife edge. We need to build and to provide for the future because the economy is on the increase and is improving. As that happens, there will be further investment and job creation and further opportunity for people to have careers and live their lives as one would expect. To do that, one must have basic infrastructure. Are we to go on in this day and age with three sewers going into the river in Arklow? Is that what we want? We cannot stand over that.

Deputy Catherine Murphy made her case and I am sure the water system where she lives is functioning perfectly well, but she is lucky. She knows that the water flowing through her taps is paid for by the general Exchequer. However, there is never enough money to deal with the future requirements. The taxes she and everybody else pays go to housing, schools, hospitals and other public services but there is a gross inadequacy here which was neglected for well over 20 years and it is now time to fix it.

The contribution to be paid is a part contribution. I understand it is not easy to accept a new charge.

That is why we have taken the extra time to consider all of these matters. We will deal with them next week-----

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The Government is forcing them to accept it.

The Taoiseach

-----and we will put people at ease in respect of the fairness, affordability and accountability-----

Deputy John Halligan

What about the PPS numbers?

The Taoiseach

-----and that their money is going for investment in a system and not into some other black hole that people have been talking about around the country. We will deal with this next week. I thank Deputy Murphy for her question.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

The one point on which I will agree with the Taoiseach is that there is a legacy of underinvestment. Where money was provided to local authorities and where they built plants, there are some extremely good examples of that money being well spent and producing very good outcomes. We should acknowledge that rather than say it cannot be done at that level.

People are not confused. If anything they lack trust because there has been a series of problems. The bonus culture, the request for the PPS numbers and the cost of running the service have all featured. People have always paid. Consider, for example, the amount of money taken in development contributions. I received a reply recently to the effect that there is €717 million either in bank accounts or due to be collected in development contributions. That is frozen because of the Government deficit. Much money was collected from the cost of a house purchased or an industry opened. What is on the table for consideration? Is the Government considering scaling back the cost of running Irish Water? Is that being factored in at all? Will the service level agreements set up with the local authorities feature or will this be merely a question of what the Taoiseach considers affordable and what most people feel is the straw that will break the camel’s back?

The Taoiseach

The contributions should be as low, fair and affordable as possible and Irish Water should be seen to be accountable. The market corporation test for the consumer is how fair it is, whether they can meet it and what they get for it. Issues have been raised about management and governance, PPS numbers, call-out fees, the fact the first leak will be fixed free of charge, investment for the future and communications.

Deputy Joe Higgins

They are paying for it already.

The Taoiseach

The regulator issued instructions some time ago that there be an 8% reduction in the cost base of Irish Water. The service level agreements are with the people who previously worked in county councils, many of whom did a wonderful job in some local authorities but not in every case. There were 34 entities. These are features of the overall decision that Government will announce next week. I agree with the principle of a contribution being made but that it be affordable, fair and people should fully understand what they get for that.

There is a major upfront capital programme of a €10 billion investment over the next few years to supply proper water for the city and the conurbations built up around it, and for the many places throughout the country where there is an inadequate system and the solutions put forward. These cannot be put in place without investment and solid engineering. The Government will announce its decisions on all of these issues next week and then we can debate it in the House for as long as people wish.