Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 20 Nov 2014

Vol. 858 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Barry Cowen

I add my voice to those of others who condemned what happened to the Tánaiste in Jobstown last week. Despite our differences in this Chamber, every Deputy, of all parties and none, should be singing from the same hymn sheet in condemning what occurred. I hope we do not see these events repeated in the future.

I have no doubt that the Government is breathing a sigh of relief after yesterday's massive climb-down on water charges. I note that the Tánaiste stated last night that she had appointed the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, to sort out the issue. I am glad to see that the Labour Party has taken ownership of Irish Water, which was a Fine Gael love child.

Yesterday the Government inflicted on the people a package of measures which will mean that everything collected in water charges in the next eight years will go towards the €700 million wasted to date. I wonder if yesterday's announcement answered the many outstanding questions. It failed, for example, to convince people that establishing Irish Water was the right thing to do or that they could expect it to suddenly become efficient, cost-conscious and consumer-friendly. It confirmed, however, that one element of the model the Government has pursued to date was definitely off the agenda, namely, conservation.

I am mindful of the comments made by the Minister for Health, Deputy Leo Varadkar, the other night and those made by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, yesterday. This morning a former chairman of the Economic and Social Research Institute expressed concern about the independence of Irish Water and its ability to reach the Holy Grail of borrowing off-balance sheet to the extent the Government would like. What level of contact has the Government had with EUROSTAT? Given that under the revised model, the Government subvention will increase to €240 million, €180 million will be handed back in rebates and a €60 million supplement will be paid to the local authorities in order that Irish Water does not have to pay rates on the €11 billion worth of assets it has acquired, what reassurance has the Government received from EUROSTAT that its model passes the test? If it does not pass the test, what assurances have been given to the Government and what guarantees can it provide that it will pass the test? The House would be wiser if it had answers to these questions. As far as I am concerned, the Government's decision to revise the model by increasing the subvention and decreasing the contribution of members of the public does nothing more than put the rest of the House on a general election footing.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Tánaiste should do the sums again.

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy Barry Cowen for his kind remarks. I have been contacted by a large number of people from around the country and living abroad and I express my thanks to all of them. The issue was not about me, in particular, but about the 60 young people who were graduating on the day. Their community and An Cosán are very proud of them, whereas the people leading the protest did not seem to have a care for them.

With regard to the people of Tallaght, especially Jobstown, I attended a large event the other day involving schools in Jobstown and Tallaght generally. The second year students in attendance were very proud and well turned out. They hope one day to go to Trinity College Dublin or one of the other universities and colleges under the Access programme. One could not but be proud of them. The protestors and those who led the protests did no favours to the young people who were present.

If Irish Water is Fine Gael's love child, as Deputy Barry Cowen describes it, the Fianna Fáil Party had a hand in its conception because it left-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a hybrid.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Who delivered the baby?

The Tánaiste

While we all understand the pressure the previous Government was under, Irish Water had been left on the to-do list signed with the troika.

As I said, however, I do not really want to get into an argy-bargy with the Deputy. I thank him for his remarks, because it is comforting, particularly with regard to my staff person who was with me in the car and had a very frightening experience and who was understandably extremely upset. The gardaí took grief, particularly women gardaí. Over-sexualised imagery was being used in the protests and comments were made as well, particularly to young male gardaí.

As regards Irish Water, Deputy Cowen asked about the status of EUROSTAT, which is similar to our Central Statistics Office, CSO. These are august, independent organisations and, as any economist and anybody who has served in government will tell the Deputy, they make their own decisions. For instance, the CSO publishes regular figures in Ireland in respect of economic activity, employment figures, unemployment figures and so on. All of these statistical bodies are resolutely independent, so there is no way the Irish Government will know the decision until such time as, in its own professional way, EUROSTAT, under EU law - and, indeed, the CSO under Irish law - takes its decision, which I understand will be some time at the end of the first quarter of 2015.

Under the market corporation test, the so-called MCT, the Government subvention as a percentage of the total is 44%. There is a small change in the subvention level, as the CEO of Ervia and Irish Water set out on "Prime Time" last night - a change of around €21 million in respect of the rates which would formerly have been paid, potentially, by Irish Water. It should be remembered that the property and assets that were taken over are those of local authorities and, as such, rates were never paid on them. Therefore, an arrangement has essentially been made to continue that. The CEO said it made no material difference, but the difference this sounding model does make - and I know the Deputy appreciates it - is that instead of having the funding costs of Irish Water directly in our annual capital budgets, we can use the ESB and Bord Gáis model to raise funds via the selling of debt and bonds, largely to pension funds of workers throughout the world, including Ireland and elsewhere in the EU, when their pension funds choose to invest in a public utility such as Irish Water. Essentially, it is a way of making Ireland's investment capacity go further. We have done it for decades and we raised billions via the ESB and Bord Gáis. We are simply using the same model now, which means that we have more money to put into school buildings, hospitals, roads and all the other things that, understandably, everybody in this House is looking for nationally and at a local level.

Deputy Barry Cowen

The bottom line, I gather from the Tánaiste's response, is that yesterday's package, including the revised model, has not passed the market test. It remains to be seen whether it will, but people are entitled to know what plan B is in the event of its not passing that test. I suppose it is not plan B, considering the Government has had ten U-turns since this debacle commenced.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Plan X.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Exactly. We have almost passed the middle of the alphabet. If it is not passed, what is plan B? Will we go back to the previous model? Will we go back to the regulator's price, rather than what the Government brought forward yesterday?

The Tánaiste

I will use the example of tests in life. Almost all of us here at one time or another have put our cars through the national car test. Many of us have also sat the leaving certificate and other examinations. The Deputy is asking me to predict the outcome-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

We are not talking about the NCT.

The Tánaiste

-----of a test run by an absolutely independent body. Both EUROSTAT and its Irish equivalent, the CSO, which calculates statistics here, are absolutely independent.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I am saying, let us not drive the car without knowing whether we have passed the NCT.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

You need insurance cover too.

The Tánaiste

I am sure Deputy Mattie McGrath recalls the period when Greece was in serious difficulties, particularly from May to June 2011. One of its big problems was that EUROSTAT decided it did not have full confidence in its figures. EUROSTAT is absolutely independent, and I know the Deputy is not suggesting it should not be independent.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I anticipated that my car would pass the NCT, but it did not.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy is asking for the answer to a test that will not be done by EUROSTAT until it decides to do it. We anticipate that it will carry out that test or examination sometime next April or around the end of the first quarter. We are confident because we have the figures here.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Then publish them.

The Tánaiste

To help Members of the House, the test is whether or not there is a stream of income in excess of 50% of the total funding that is other than Government funding. The Government subvention of Ervia or Irish Water is 44% and, therefore, we should more than comfortably pass the test. I am satisfied that we will actually pass the test.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is 50:50.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I join in absolutely rejecting any act of aggression against the Tánaiste, her staff member, any member of An Garda Síochána or any protestor. I am sure she will join with me in acknowledging that, in fact, the protests by hundreds of thousands of people the length and breadth of the country have been marked by their peacefulness, respect, colour and determination. I am sure the Tánaiste will join with me in saying that the acts of a few random individuals do not represent the spirit or intent of the vast majority who have protested.

Yesterday, the Government announced a revised plan cobbled together in response to those very demonstrations. It is an attempt to dupe people into believing that the issue of water charges has been resolved. It is a desperate attempt to bribe people off the protests. Those protests have demonstrated the sharp reality that this lame-duck coalition has lost its mandate.

The Tánaiste seems to have a strange view of the public's anger and demands. Mind-bogglingly, she persists with the farcical line that people have been protesting because they want certainty and clarity. That is nonsense, however, and the Tánaiste knows it.

There are four things that hard-pressed ordinary people can be certain of today: first, that the Government is pressing ahead with water charges; second, that these charges will go in only one direction, which is up; third, that the metering programme will continue and that metered charges are the endgame here; and fourth, that there is still no constitutional guarantee of a right to water.

The Tánaiste made a big deal of the €100 rebate that will be administered through her Department. She seems to be incapable of getting it, however. There are many families who cannot pay any charge whatsoever. Easy payment plans and other methods of extracting this money simply do not cut it.

They cannot wait six months to get back €100; they do not have €100 to give. People did not march looking for capped charges, flat charges or threats of penalties. They did not march to have their landlords turned into water tax collectors or to have unpaid water charges attached to the family home. They did not march for concessions but for abolition. The Tánaiste answered the questions she was not asked and failed to answer the core demand of people the length and breadth of the country.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should put a question.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

What will it take for the Tánaiste to wake up and listen to what people are saying and scrap these odious and unfair water charges?

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy McDonald for her comments and I hope people like her, in positions of leadership particularly, will remove this slur cast on the people of Jobstown and Tallaght by the way the leaders of the demonstration conducted themselves.

Deputy Joe Higgins

By Independent newspapers.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The Trotskyite agitator should go back to Goatstown.

The Tánaiste

The people of Tallaght and Jobstown are owed an apology and I thank Deputy McDonald for disassociating herself from the extremely damaging behaviour. The people in Jobstown and Tallaght work hard, earn their money and pay their taxes. They do not deserve to be traduced in the way that was done by the organisers of the protest.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

The Tánaiste

Their children have ambitions to work and to go to college and not to have the name of Tallaght, or the name of any working-class unit in Dublin, traduced.

Deputy John Lyons

Shame.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Paul Murphy seemed pretty happy to have the Garda Síochána bring him out of the demonstration and taken away safely when it got rougher.

Deputy Paul Murphy

That is not true.

The Tánaiste

I presume at that point Deputy Paul Murphy put the megaphone back in the boot of his car.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste must get back to Deputy McDonald's question and we must have order for the answer.

The Tánaiste

I know this is taking extra time but I want to thank Deputy McDonald for dissociating herself and her party from what happened in Tallaght on Saturday. It is not good for anyone in Ireland and not good for the community. It is not about me; it is about the community in Tallaght and Jobstown.

With regard to her question, under the revised package of a fresh start for Irish Water, people in a single adult household charge will pay, net, €1.15 a week. People in a household with two adults or more will pay a net charge of €3 a week. Deputy McDonald speculated about why people marched. I know people who marched and I have talked to a lot of people about the issue. As well as the matters about which the Deputy was talking, they want clean water, they want an end to the spectacle of 42 rivers having raw sewage dumped into them, they want to see a programme-----

Deputy Paul Murphy

They want not to have their child benefit cut.

Deputy John Lyons

How about we lock Deputy Paul Murphy in a car for two and a half hours?

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

They do not want to be charged for wastewater treatment. This Government will charge for a service-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is Deputy McDonald's question.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Who elected Deputy Stephen Donnelly leader?

The Tánaiste

This is the alliance of the Tea Party and Trotskyist. This is a new political party in Ireland. The Tea Party Trotskyists, a homegrown Irish version.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

T-trot.

Deputy Stephen S. Donnelly

I am sure people love the Tánaiste's witticisms.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Deputy Donnelly is an expert on everything.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is Leaders' Questions. Time is nearly up.

The Tánaiste

Deputy Stephen Donnelly knows-----

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Tánaiste should be answering my question.

The Tánaiste

-----there has been an intense amount of investment, particularly under the previous Government. Fianna Fáil made a lot of investment, as did the local authorities throughout the country through development levies, in water delivery and sewerage systems. Having boundaries for pipes that stop at the county boundary makes no sense.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is not true.

The Tánaiste

There was no great achievement with regard to the road programme because, similarly, it made no sense.

Deputy Ciara Conway

Deputy Mattie McGrath is getting his water from Waterford.

Deputy Gerald Nash

They must be putting something in it.

The Tánaiste

With regard to Fianna Fáil, I acknowledge that when the National Roads Authority brought together previously disassociated county roads investment plans, we got one of the better legacies of the prosperous years, a motorway system that vastly improved the service and usability of our road system.

Anyone who turned left at Paulstown to go to Waterford, as I did over a long period and I am looking at Deputy Ciara Conway, and went into south Kilkenny-----

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Tánaiste has turned right.

The Tánaiste

-----the road returned to being the roads of previous days because Kilkenny County Council did not care about how people got to or from Waterford. In fairness, when Fianna Fáil and the previous Government invested in the National Roads Authority, we got a motorway that the people of Waterford deserve.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Around the houses.

Deputy Finian McGrath

There is the next Government.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Order please, for Deputy McDonald's supplementary question.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Just as I dissociated myself from that behaviour, I equally disassociate myself from the behaviour of a small number of members of the Garda Síochána, who have been extremely heavy-handed and rough with protesters.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

The old enemy.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Members of the Garda Síochána are not the enemies of anyone. They are the guardians of the peace and protesters have a perfect right to be treated lawfully and respectfully and not to be flung against a bollard. This is a limited number of members of the Garda Síochána but we must be consistent in our view that all protesting and demonstration must be absolutely peaceful and peacefully policed.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Does that apply to the assassination of gardaí?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Far from casting a slur on the people of Jobstown and Tallaght, from anyone I know in the Oireachtas there would be only words of positivity for Tallaght. There is no need for anyone to make a grand defence of the people of Tallaght. There is no attack on the people of Tallaght, who are fine people, as are the people of Jobstown. They have as much right as anyone else to protest in respect of water charges.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Not under the Trotskyist.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I do not need to speculate about what people were saying on the demonstrations. I was at them. The Tánaiste glibly says that it is only €1.15 or €3 a week, which it is if people have that in their pockets. I am troubled by the fact the Tánaiste, seeing as she references working class communities across this city and beyond, does not seem to grasp that there are people who do not have any euro or cent at the end of a given week or month with their current bills, never mind water charges. They cannot pay.

I will ask two specific questions and the Tánaiste might give me two specific answers. What about the people who cannot pay? Some of them are the working poor and we all know them so let us not pretend that they do not exist. What about the people who cannot pay? What do they face - penalties and attachments to dwellings? What does the Tánaiste say to them?

Everything was considered in the package of measures announced yesterday. What consideration was given to abolishing domestic water charges? That was, and still is, the demand. Was there a discussion to consider the demand made by so many?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call the Tánaiste to give a final reply.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

She might answer the questions today.

The Tánaiste

My reply may take slightly longer than usual.

Deputy Finian McGrath

This should not impinge on Technical Group time.

The Tánaiste

Deputy McDonald made some important comments about An Garda Síochána and I will address them briefly. At these protests there was a small minority of people, and those opposite may know some of them, as they are from a variety of groups. There was virulence in the language directed towards the gardaí and the people against whom people were protesting. This has happened not just to me but to other colleagues and people. The virulence of the language was extraordinary. These are our fellow Irish citizens and the Garda Síochána is tasked with guarding everybody in this State. They do a very good job under difficult circumstances, as they did in Tallaght on Saturday.

There was a provocative and "sexed up" nature in the language used. There was imagery in language relating to women. There were female gardaí present who were fantastic and who managed to stop further assaults on the car I occupied, as I was in two cars at different times. The imagery in the language used by protesters was at times bullying and homophobic when directed at young male gardaí. I have travelled around the world and been in difficult circumstances on different occasions. I was brought up in the centre of Dublin in a very ordinary working class community. I am no stranger to people using robust language but I do not know what is in people's minds when they use the imagery in the language I heard. It is not healthy for young gardaí to have to take it.

If the Deputy is aware, as deputy leader of her party, of cases where she feels the gardaí may have reacted or behaved inappropriately, or other people are aware of it-----

Deputy John Halligan

It was on television.

The Tánaiste

The previous Government established the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC.

Deputy Martin Ferris

It was on "Prime Time".

The Tánaiste

If the Deputy or people she knows have a complaint, that is the place to go.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Will the Tánaiste answer my question?

The Tánaiste

There were attempts to damage property and gardaí. For the Deputies' information, the second car I occupied had its windscreen broken.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

This is ridiculous.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

A Leas-Cheann Comhairle-----

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

The Tánaiste is talking down the clock again.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must proceed to the next question.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

It is groundhog day.

The Tánaiste

I am happy to answer the points in the second part of the question.

Deputy Finian McGrath

There is another group to ask a question.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I have a point of order.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

Is the Leas-Cheann Comhairle allowing extra time?

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

I hope the Deputy is not going to accuse us of wasting time. That would be pretty ironic.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

We are accusing her of not answering the question.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I appreciate that the Tánaiste wished to make comments on the events at the weekend but she has covered it very comprehensively. I have asked her two questions.

Deputy Jerry Buttimer

No.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

On a point of order-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Allow the Tánaiste to continue.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I asked about people who cannot pay and the abolition of charges. I want answers to those questions.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Have Standing Orders been changed?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

This is Leaders' Questions.

Deputy Finian McGrath

He is the enforcer.

Deputy Brian Stanley

A new leader.

The Tánaiste

In the case of people with inadequate resources, whether they are at work or depending on social welfare, for the first time since the economy collapsed we have been in a position with the budget this year to have a small or modest social welfare increase targeted at precisely the people about which the Deputy is rightly expressing concern.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Some of them.

The Tánaiste

If families or individuals have particular needs, as always, the Department of Social Protection will seek to help.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I hope there will be injury time for the Technical Group.

The Tánaiste

This is as we have done for people with ESB or Bord Gáis debts.

Deputy John Halligan

Nothing has been done with community welfare officers.

The Tánaiste

We want to set in motion a mechanism to support people in meeting their obligations.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

That is if they can find a community welfare officer.

The Tánaiste

The social welfare system has done this for decades and if there are cases-----

Deputy Róisín Shortall

There are 500,000 people.

The Tánaiste

-----where families or individuals have a particular difficulty-----

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The landlords will take the water charges from deposits.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Deputy should stop shouting down the Tánaiste.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

Nothing has been done for those people.

The Tánaiste

-----we can help such individuals and families, as we have done through the decades. The increases in tax savings or take-home pay for people on the average industrial wage will be €8 per week. That refers to somebody on approximately €34,000 and it will come into effect when the employer puts those changes into effect.

Deputy Brian Stanley

What about somebody on €100,000 per year? How much would he or she get?

The Tánaiste

That compares to the €1.15 or €3 figure for the week for water charges.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

What about people on low pay?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Joan Collins.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I hope the Leas-Cheann Comhairle will show some flexibility and allow extra time.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have great time for Independents.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy can have half an hour.

Deputy Joan Collins

It has taken a half hour to deal with questions from the representatives of two party leaders when it should only take 15 minutes.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Joan Collins

I wish to raise the serious issue of secret negotiations which have taken place between the European Union and the US. These talks aim to conclude a Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, TTIP.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

It will wipe out everybody.

Deputy Joan Collins

Most people do not even know these negotiations are under way and they have no idea what is being discussed because of the extreme secrecy surrounding the talks, meaning there has been no or little debate in the European Parliament. There has been no debate I know of in this Parliament.

Deputy Eric Byrne

We have been debating it.

Deputy Joan Collins

There are major concerns about this within trade unions and civil society groups. War on Want describes TTIP as an assault on European and US societies by transnational corporations. The primary aim of TTIP, acknowledged by officials in the talks, is not to stimulate trade by removing tariffs but to remove regulatory barriers which restrict potential profits by transnational corporations.

There are six main areas. One is the creation of new markets by opening public services and government procurement to competition but will this include Irish Water? Second, there is a proposed convergence on standards for food safety and the environment, which will bring about a lowering of EU standards. In the US, 70% of processed food contains genetically modified material and in the EU, one must prove a substance is non-toxic, whereas in the US one can use a substance that is proven as "less toxic". Banking regulation is also on the agenda. It is tougher in the US after the crash, and the European Union banks want lighter regulation in order to get back to business as usual. Other issues include the easing of data protection processes, the likelihood of job losses in the EU compared with the US because of less union organisation and labour laws and, importantly, the issue of an investor state dispute settlement court, which is to be a private and secret court.

What level of involvement do Irish officials have in these talks? If there has been involvement, who has been present? Has there been any discussion at the Cabinet about the talks and will there be a debate here, with full information provided to Deputies?

Deputy Finian McGrath

That was on time and on budget.

The Tánaiste

The Deputy is referring to ongoing discussions between the European Union-----

Deputy Joan Collins

Secret discussions.

The Tánaiste

-----and the United States with regard to trade. As the Deputy probably knows, we are a trading island and we must make our living in the world. Any negotiations that provide markets for Irish goods and services are of significant importance to developing and sustaining employment in Ireland. The Deputy is referring to fair trade regulations, and if they can take into account the interests of the different people in countries involved with the negotiations, it would be a very important advance. Recently, as a consequence of difficulties in the Ukraine, certain parts of the Russian markets have been closed to Irish exporters, which is of concern to people working in companies that export to Russia. If trade access is closed for a country like Ireland, it would create an incredibly difficult issue.

There are always concerns relating to trade negotiations.

The Deputy must balance Ireland's interests as a trading country and the benefits of a bigger market for goods and services with changes in market regulation and the opening of markets that could adversely affect Ireland and the interests of its workers.

Deputy Joan Collins

I asked who has been involved.

The Tánaiste

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, will be particularly involved in this and my predecessor, Deputy Eamon Gilmore, took an extremely strong interest in these negotiations, especially the rights elements. These matters have been raised by a number of trade unions but I am not directly involved in the negotiations as the Minister for Social Protection.

Ireland must develop markets and develop trade as this is how many people make a living. We must attract international investment and a significant announcement was made in my constituency last week - 1,000 new construction jobs are to be created to develop cutting edge medical biological facilities. We must be aware of potential difficulties that may arise in the negotiations - this is what the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade is tasked to do.

Deputy Joan Collins

I was not expecting that reply from the Tánaiste. Serious concerns relating to workers' rights under the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership, TTIP, have been raised by civil groups and trade unions. It seems that multinationals want the power to challenge the right of national governments to defend what they can in this area.

The Canadian Government sought a two-year moratorium on fracking when a company sought fracking rights there but that company has taken the Canadian Government to court. The key to the TTIP is that it aims to give multinationals the right to protect profits and we need a debate on this in Ireland. The Minister does not know much about this subject and I will say on the record of this House that I do not know much either. I want more information on the TTIP and it should be debated in this Chamber. The people of this country need to know and I hope the media pick up on this and investigate what is going on.

Deputy Eric Byrne

The Deputy should read the report of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs on this matter. We know everything there is to know.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Eric Byrne is interrupting proceedings.

Deputy Eric Byrne

I am only encouraging the speaker to read the minutes of the relevant meeting of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle should give him a red card and throw him out.

Deputy Joan Collins

In Germany a Swedish energy company is suing the German state because of the decision to phase out nuclear power in the wake of the Fukushima disaster in Japan. Details such as this evidence the manner in which the TTIP allows transnational companies to operate. We must challenge the TTIP and Deputies in this House must learn more on the subject. This matter should be on the agenda of the House. Has Deputy Eamon Gilmore brought all of the relevant information before the Cabinet?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

He is not in the Cabinet.

The Tánaiste

Deputies Eric Byrne and Dominic Hannigan are active members of the Joint Committee on European Union Affairs. I do not know whether Deputy Joan Collins had the opportunity to attend any of the debates the committee held on this but its views have been submitted to the European Commission. I acknowledge that the issues raised by Deputy Collins are important and I think she should table questions for the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan - she may have done so already. I believe the committee would be open to holding further discussions to go into greater detail on the precise situations raised by the Deputy. A detailed debate by the committee would be the best way to address the issues raised because the committee would invite people with expertise in trade areas.