Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 26 Nov 2014

Vol. 859 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach would probably agree that the greatest aspect of the State examinations system, at both at junior certificate and leaving certificate, is its absolute objectivity and transparency. Every child, irrespective of background, is treated and assessed equally. I would agree with Mr. Fintan O'Toole, writing yesterday in The Irish Times, that it is "as close to being incorruptible as anything gets in Ireland". Changing such a system, even at junior certificate level, merits the most careful of consideration. I understand where teachers are coming from in their concerns about this because this is a major change in assessment which no doubt will have an impact on the student-teacher relationship.

It is also fair to put on the record that over the past ten years there have been significant reforms, at both junior and leaving certificate levels. At junior certificate, there was the introduction of a new science syllabus, the introduction of project maths, group work at CSPE, etc. It is not that teachers are always against reform. They have embraced reform and reform has happened.

The problem here is that the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, caused a lot of bad feeling when he ignored the recommendations of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA. He announced the new model unilaterally without consultation and would not engage with the trade unions, and a lot of doubt and bad feeling was created. In fairness, the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, acknowledged that in her announcement by reverting back to the original proposals of the NCCA, and now there will be a final examination and State certification for 60% and 40% will go on projects and portfolios. Parents are concerned about this also. In a survey, 60% of parents stated they did not want teachers correcting their own pupils' work. There are a lot of issues with this.

The Minister has imposed a precondition and has stated that is her final position. She will not engage in talks unless the teachers accept this 60:40 divide. There is no detail in terms of external moderation. There is no substance behind it and I can understand the scepticism of teachers.

I ask the Taoiseach to remove that precondition. He should say to the Minister for Education and Skills that she should engage in talks with the unions without conditions. That could prevent the strike happening next Tuesday. We do not need a strike next Tuesday on this issue if there is an acceptance all round that there are very serious issues at play here and all stakeholders must be brought on board. That is the fundamental question I put to the Taoiseach. Will he remove that precondition to ensure meaningful talks can take place on this issue?

The Taoiseach

I regret that the teachers intend to hold a strike. The only ones who suffer from a strike in circumstances like this are the pupils and this is about them.

As Deputy Martin will be well aware, this involves provision of the most comprehensive and best-rounded education that young people can have before they enter a competitive and evolving work environment in a few short years and that is why it has been necessary to look at the concept of the junior certificate - what it stands for, how it is structured, what it means and what progress it can give to young people in secondary school. Deputy Martin's party proposed to abolish the junior certificate at one stage.

For over 30 years, there has been agreement on the need to reform the first three years of second level education. That was first proposed by the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment in 1999. Undoubtedly, the current junior certificate has its strengths but it cannot allow for assessment of skills, such as teamwork, communications or creativity, which are all important in today's world. These are aspects of a modern society and they are crucial skills that young people need to have. I am sure everybody here agrees that we want the best for our young people.

The new junior certificate will allow students to study short courses in a range of areas that are relevant to their future. That is an issue about devolution of responsibility to schools which has generally been accepted. Some of these short courses will include matters such as Chinese language and culture and coding, which skills and knowledge will be of increasing importance in the future. That is obviously something being requested by schools themselves.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is about independent assessment.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not the question.

The Taoiseach

They will be able to develop their own short courses. Priority junior certificate changes in areas such as creativity, teamwork and problem solving cannot be assessed by written examination. The plan is for a reduction, from 100% to 40%, in the marks to be awarded for portfolio work, oral skills, project work and ways of assessing that are much broader than written examinations. Deputy Martin will be well aware that in Scotland, Finland, Australia and New Zealand, all countries with high performing school systems, state examinations at the end of the junior cycle have been either abolished completely or replaced with a combination of examinations and course work assessed within the school.

Since her appointment, the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has been clear that she has been willing to listen to all of the voices in education and to compromise where she felt this was necessary. She involved herself in detailed discussions and Dr. Travers, the former president of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, was appointed as a chairman. The Minister offered a compromise here, that 60% of the marks in the junior cycle should be allocated on the basis of an examination at the end of the third year - down from 100% - which will continue to be set and marked by the State Examinations Commission for all subjects and that 40% of the marks should be allocated for school-based work, such as portfolios and projects, which thousands of students do at third level colleges every day of the week.

Deputy Finian McGrath

We know all that. Assessment is the issue. The Taoiseach is out of touch again.

The Taoiseach

That work will be marked by the class teacher, who is in a much better position to provide detailed feedback to a student as he or she does in woodwork or metalwork in schools all over the country today-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach would want to go back to school.

The Taoiseach

-----to help them learn from the assessment of work. The NCCA will set out the task that should be completed and give guidance to teachers on marking that. This is feasible to achieve.

From visiting schools all over the country, I am aware that teachers work closely on project work and assessment of that with students every day. There is nothing different here, with 60% marked by the State Examinations Commission and 40% for project work and continued assessment. It is important for young people whose teachers know them best.

The Minister has gone a long way in the interests of the pupil and reform. I would ask that we not have a strike on this because the only ones who will suffer are the students.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The bottom line here is the assessment model. No one has any issue with reform. There has been reform for the past ten years with curriculum changes on an ongoing basis.

By the way, curriculum change needs to be backed up with detail, substance and comprehensive resourcing. None of that is on the table. There is no detail on the 40% in terms of assessment of portfolios and projects. At leaving certificate level, for example, in subjects such as history, 20% can be allocated to project work or to a portfolio, but that is assessed externally.

There should be proper engagement.

From day one the Government attempted to ram this through without consultation or any engagement.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It was bulldozed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That was the problem. I accept the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, has moved away from that approach in a certain direction, but there should be no preconditions in terms of meaningful negotiations and working through these particular issues. It is that sort of dictatorial, arrogant approach, which has been the hallmark of the Government, that leads to such conflict situations and strikes where we do not need them. Teachers are well aware of what is being proposed, but they are not aware of any detail at all on the 40%. The countries the Taoiseach mentioned have externally moderated systems, although I accept there is not external assessment in some countries. External moderation is comprehensive and well resourced and significant preparatory training was provided. There has been a complete absence of any of that in regard to this issue.

Deputy McConalogue, as an Opposition spokesman, has been very constructive on the issue for some time, but he has identified many of the weaknesses in the past two years in terms of how the Government has approached the matter. There is no let up now, in terms of the manner in which the Taoiseach answered my question. I appeal to the Taoiseach to go back to the drawing board with the Minister for Education and Skills and engage in a respectful way on the issue with the trade unions and members in order that we can have all the stakeholders on board to ensure meaningful reform of the learning and teaching process.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin is wrong to say preconditions were set down. On her appointment as Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan said she was willing to listen, engage and become involved with all concerned. She appointed Dr. Travers, the former president of St. Patrick's College, Drumcondra, as chairman of the talks process, but the terms of reference were all proposed by the unions, not by the Minister, and the Minister accepted them. It is not true to say preconditions were set down or that the change was bulldozed through.

Deputy Micheál Martin

There cannot be any talks unless the 60:40 approach is accepted by teachers.

The Taoiseach

The terms of reference were proposed by the unions, and they were accepted by the Minister. She appointed Dr. Travers to oversee the process. The previous proposal was that teachers would be responsible for marking 100% of a student's work throughout the junior certificate. That has now changed and 60% will be marked by the State Examinations Commission. Deputy Martin is aware that teachers know their students best of all from an educational point of view.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I do not know why the Taoiseach is pointing that out.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin should allow me to finish. The NCCA will set out in detail the work that should be completed by each student and guidance will be provided to teachers on the marking. If the Deputy were to visit a school at the moment-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have.

Deputy Finian McGrath

A total of 89% of teachers say the Taoiseach is wrong. That is the reality.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Only 11% of teachers say he is right.

The Taoiseach

-----where students are doing project work, for example, making a coffee table, press or table-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Members please stay quiet?

The Taoiseach

The discussions that take place between the students and the teacher ensure that the teacher knows the range and capacity of each student and he or she can give guidance based on what the NCCA will set out as to how best the work should be completed. Teachers know the situation best and it is for that kind of project work that 40% of the marks are awarded. That is eminently achievable by teachers. Deputy Martin was wrong to say there were preconditions-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach should stop.

The Taoiseach

-----he was wrong when he said the Minister bulldozed the change through-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

Preconditions were set for talks.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach is not talking to children now.

The Taoiseach

-----and he was wrong in not understanding that the propositions were put forward by the unions and accepted by the Minister.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It was said there could be no talks unless teachers accepted the 60:40 approach.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin never listens. Following those discussions, the system was changed from 100% of marking required by teachers to 60% by the State Examinations Board and 40% by teachers-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach brought in the 100% system.

The Taoiseach

-----for projects assessed by teachers who know their students best.

Deputy Gerry Adams

In the Dáil yesterday, the Taoiseach made an allegation that people associated with Sinn Féin were most insulting to ordinary people who attended a Fine Gael Party meeting in Limerick on Monday night. What the Taoiseach said yesterday was absolutely untrue. Sinn Féin was not involved in the protest in Limerick. Our council group leader, Maurice Quinlivan, has made that clear. I presume the Taoiseach knew that or he could have checked it out before he came to the House to make the allegation, which was carried by some of the media and which is clearly part of an effort by him to demonise the anti-water charges campaign, and in particular Sinn Féin.

The reality is that thousands of reasonable people had protested very peacefully, and will continue to do so, until the water charges are abolished. People will not stop holding up their placards just because the Taoiseach, Deputy Enda Kenny, wants them to do so. I look forward to a huge turnout on 10 December. We have always been very clear about protests and demonstrations, in particular in the wake of some unsavoury incidents around the anti-water charges demonstration. I and others have said the protest should be very peaceful, family-friendly and respectful. The Right2Water campaign, which Sinn Féin supports, is a broad-based movement of ordinary citizens, most of whom have never been active previously. They are expressing themselves through peaceful protest, which the Taoiseach should encourage. Will the Taoiseach now withdraw his inaccurate and untrue allegation against Sinn Féin which he made in the Dáil yesterday?

Deputy Finian McGrath

There should be no porkies.

The Taoiseach

There always seems to be a problem with the associates of the Sinn Féin Party.

Deputy Seán Crowe

So it is not a question of Sinn Féin members; now it is associates.

The Taoiseach

I was in Clare and Limerick the other day. I do not think Deputy Adams was present himself.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I said we were not there.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Members please stay quiet?

The Taoiseach

I am not blind. I saw the posters myself. The Sinn Féin representative, Mr. Quinlivan, said no Sinn Féin person used abusive language towards ordinary citizens leaving a party political meeting. It was absolutely disgraceful. If that is the kind of association Sinn Féin has with a broad-based protest group, then Deputy Adams, as president of his party, should say to the associates of his party that he does not want to ever hear that kind of language again.

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

It was used against ordinary people, in particular women, who went to a political meeting and were walking out in the ordinary way as ordinary citizens. I remind Deputy Adams also that I have said on many occasions that it is perfectly in order for people in this country to democratically and legitimately express their concerns through protest in a peaceful way. What was witnessed in that case did not worry me but it was certainly very abusive towards women in particular. The language was simply appalling. Deputy Adams has said he has a broad-based group and that the people involved are associated with a broad-based group. There were members of his party in Limerick and in Clare and they were using abusive language. Deputy Adams was not there; I was, and I heard it.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

The Taoiseach has become very thin skinned.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Deputy Coonan abused the people of Dublin. He should withdraw his remark and apologise in the House.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Deputy Finian McGrath should listen.

An Ceann Comhairle

Members should please stay quiet.

The Taoiseach

I remind Deputy Adams that the Government listened very carefully to the people who expressed their concerns legitimately, peacefully and democratically on the streets.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

The Taoiseach did not listen hard enough.

The Taoiseach

The Government answered the queries on clarity, affordability, fairness and certainty.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The legacy men.

The Taoiseach

That is why there will be no increase in water contributions until 2019, and beyond that the Minister of the day will by law hold the authority to continue to cap water charges in order that they are affordable. The charges are now affordable. For a single person, the charge is €1.15 per week. For two adults or more, the charge is €3 per week. I had letters from a primary school in Monaghan yesterday-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The Government wanted to charge a lot more than that.

The Taoiseach

-----where young children said big people do not know how to save water. They said these water meters are very good and it will mean there will be less money spent on wasting water.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

The Taoiseach needs a big sit down.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will Members please be quiet?

The Taoiseach

They have a far better view of it than Sinn Féin appears to have.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about Big Phil?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Deputy Adams's business.

The Taoiseach

The issues of mandatory PPS numbers, a bonus culture, public ownership and what happens after 2019 have all been answered very clearly and very fairly. The Government did listen. The Government also listened to the kind of abusive language I heard in Limerick and in Clare.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Is this Lilliput?

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Adams is associated with that then he should ask those people working with his party, who are broadly-based, to withdraw those remarks against women in particular. The language was abusive and filthy. I have rarely heard the likes of it before.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Mná Fhine Gael.

The Taoiseach

If they are associates of Sinn Féin, then Deputy Adams can keep them.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mattie McGrath

What about Big Phil?

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Deputy Adams's question. There is no need for the chorus from Fianna Fáil.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Yesterday, I asked the Taoiseach a very straight question in the House. I asked him whether he thought it was acceptable that the CEO of Irish Water also owns shares in a company which is set to make millions from Irish Water contracts. Of course he did not answer the question. I also asked him about the massive over-run for the installation of water meters and he did not answer that question either.

He made these spurious and untruthful remarks which he has repeated today. His answer shows a lack of a sense of grace. When he is told by me and by the leader of our group in Limerick that Sinn Féin was not involved in that protest, he should accept that.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Like Deputy Coonan when he was involved.

Deputy Regina Doherty

Nobody does. Be clear.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Big people do not know how to govern. The children in Monaghan could tell the Taoiseach that.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach will answer.

Deputy Ray Butler

Deputy Adams is not in the IRA.

An Ceann Comhairle

Stay quiet, please.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

He is waking up-----

An Ceann Comhairle

You stay quiet too, please.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is well able to answer for himself.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach says he is listening to people but he is not listening to people. He does not listen to the Opposition in here nor does he listen to people on the streets. He was forced into a partial U-turn on this issue so that shows people that people power is working. The Taoiseach had an opportunity to get rid of water charges and people know that so they are not fooled because he did not do so. People are scandalised by the continuous waste of public money by Irish Water. I just discovered that they spend-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please put your question, Deputy Adams.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Irish Water spends nearly €1 million every month on advisers. The Taoiseach talked about clarity. Where is the clarity about this? How much is Ervia spending on media advisers? How much is Irish Water paying? Instead of muddying the waters with these untruthful allegations, will the Taoiseach tell me why these costs are concealed from the public? Why can the public not know what is being paid to advisers, media advisers in particular?

Deputy Leo Varadkar

Did Deputy Adams see the "Spotlight" programme?

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Last night's "Spotlight" programme.

The Taoiseach

Last night's "Spotlight" programme indicated that the Deputy's party is off the Richter scale in terms of the way it deals with its expenses.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Deputy Adams might print it out for us.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Answer the question, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams makes charges in the House. He asked the same question yesterday. Mr. McNicholas spoke on national radio yesterday morning and clarified the position in so far as his being a shareholder in NTR was concerned and he dealt with all of that.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Is it acceptable? You are the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

The Deputy's second point was about the difference between the estimate and the formal tender. He knows a lot about building. A person can be asked to submit an estimate of a probable cost-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

It cost €100 million.

The Taoiseach

-----but a formal tender is obviously more accurate because it is a more detailed assessment. That is the position with regard to the water meters. The Deputy should talk to the children who wrote to me.

Deputy Sandra McLellan

It is 20% out.

The Taoiseach

We are told by Deputy Adams that we have to believe everything here. Of course, he did say, "Go and pay your water charges". He supports water charges and then he does not support water charges.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

He was never in the IRA.

Deputy Gerry Adams

We never supported water charges.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, we are over time.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams has changed his tune on a number of occasions. The people to his left on the political spectrum seem to be getting at him because he has abandoned ship with regard to his wealth tax-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

We have not.

The Taoiseach

-----and he is now back to putting an 8% increase in income tax on every taxpayer in the country.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach's ship is sinking.

The Taoiseach

The people of this country should know that in supporting the populism of his party, what they are being asked to do is to have their income tax increased substantially for those earning from €30,000 right up through to those whom Deputy Adams deems to be wealthy, those earning from €40,000 and €50,000, hard-pressed middle Ireland. Sinn Féin will increase their income tax.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Taoiseach answer the question?

Deputy Martin Ferris

He does not answer questions. He should try to answer the question for once.

The Taoiseach

That is what it wants to do. He told us that he has submitted his budget which was exceptionally well costed with a black hole of €300 million, €400 million, €500 million and which he expects the workers of Ireland to pay for by means of increased income taxes.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Stop punishing the people. Stop the smears.

The Taoiseach

I do not believe the things he tells me in here. I do not believe what he told me about Clare and Limerick.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Taoiseach, we are way over time.

The Taoiseach

If the Deputy's people are associated, as he puts it, in a broad support group by the members who were down there the other night, then I ask him to make his statement to Mr. Quinlivan and everybody else. The kind of language used by people associated with his party-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach knows that we dissociate ourselves entirely from that.

The Taoiseach

-----was absolutely appalling and an affront to women in particular.

An Ceann Comhairle

I must ask the Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams should make a statement asking every Sinn Féin member to cease association with that broad support group to which he referred.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Mr. Quinlivan was afraid to tell Deputy Adams the truth because he could have been court-martialled.

Deputy Mick Wallace

For more than two years we were confronted with seemingly endless scandals of Garda malpractice. For a year and a half we heard total Government denials. Then a few heads rolled and we were given promises of reform and loads of reports. The Garda Síochána Inspectorate report insisted that a complete radical cultural change was required but the Government has decided to appoint an insider. This insider sat on the shoulder of Martin Callinan when he appeared before the Committee of Public Accounts to answer questions and at which he described the whistleblowers as "disgusting". She was doing the whispering in his ear, as his right-hand woman.

Six months ago, a whistleblower from Athlone, Nicky Keogh, was mentioned in this House. He presented indisputable evidence of Garda involvement in serious criminal activity related to drugs. Six months on, there has been no information forthcoming. Meanwhile, the garda who made the complaint has been subjected to constant weekly harassment by senior management in Mullingar, manufacturing complaints against him, monitoring everything he does and making constant demands for his source of intelligence. This has all been on her watch. The blue wall of silence has not gone away.

The Taoiseach has done a very good job of taking the heat out of the Garda issue by getting rid of the Garda Commissioner, getting rid of Shatter and getting rid of the Secretary General.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The former Minister, Deputy Shatter.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Legislation has been delayed and reform has been promised but not delivered. It is the same policing policy but a different PR policy which has worked well for the Government. The appointment of the Garda Commissioner and in particular the appointment of the chair of the independent policing authority has been shrouded in secrecy rather than transparency.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Government has bypassed proper protocol.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please Deputy.

Deputy Mick Wallace

How many people applied for those two jobs? How many people were interviewed for those jobs? Did anyone from outside the State apply for the Garda Commissioner job?

The Taoiseach

I note Deputy Wallace's comments of today and yesterday. I congratulate Commissioner O'Sullivan on her appointment by the Government as Garda Commissioner. She was recommended as the sole candidate for appointment, following a rigorous and independent scrutiny, analysis and interview process. This selection was part of an international competition for persons who considered themselves sufficiently competent to carry out these responsibilities and to fill this role. The selection committee comprised a number of very competent people, including the former chief of police in Boston and Seattle, Kathleen O'Toole, together with the appointed chairperson of the independent police authority and the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach.

This is a reform process. Deputy Wallace's remarks are an insult to the Garda Commissioner. I note the comments of Sergeant Maurice McCabe who has been working with Commissioner O'Sullivan during her interim period as acting commissioner in dealing with penalty points. He welcomed her appointment as Garda Commissioner.

The Garda Síochána (Amendment) (No. 3) Bill is currently before the Dáil. The Bill proposes to strengthen the role and remit of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission. The independent review mechanism, consisting of a panel of counsel, is examining more than 300 complaints alleging Garda misconduct or problems with investigating misconduct. The Fennelly commission of investigation is continuing its work. The report of Mr. Justice Cooke's inquiry into reports of unlawful surveillance of GSOC has been published. The review of the Garda Síochána under the Haddington Road agreement, which is expected to be concluded shortly, encompasses all aspects of the administration and the operation of An Garda Síochána. The report of the independent review of the Department of Justice and Equality was published in July and the Minister for Justice and Equality is working closely with that senior management team to implement those recommendations. The Protected Disclosures Act 2014 has amended Garda legislation to allow Garda members to make protected disclosures to GSOC in confidence in respect of alleged Garda misconduct. The recently enacted Freedom of Information Act 2014 extends to An Garda Síochána.

I remind the Deputy, because of his concern, that when he was invited to Farmleigh House to discuss all of these matters he decided not to attend.

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Minister knows I could not go that day.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Where were you?

Deputy Mick Wallace

I was also promised we would be given an input into how the police authority would be structured.

Deputy Noel Coonan

Get your priorities right.

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Taoiseach speaks about insults, but with regard to the independent review mechanism, it is an insult to all of the people who have filed complaints and have come to us with complaints, some of which are not filed, that someone from the existing hierarchy would be appointed.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

No, it is not if it occurs through an independent process.

Deputy Mick Wallace

What has been going on since Shatter left? I knew I would miss Shatter-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter.

Deputy Mick Wallace

-----but I did not think I would miss him this much. How much legislation have we seen since Shatter went?

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Shatter, please.

Deputy Mick Wallace

Sorry, Deputy Shatter. We were told we would have the terms of reference for the commission of investigation, as recommended by the Guerin report, within six weeks of the report, but that was seven months ago. We were told that by the end of the summer we would have the results of the independent review mechanism on what sort of process would take place. How many months ago was that?

An Ceann Comhairle

A question please.

Deputy Mick Wallace

It is crazy. Professor Dermot Walsh, probably the leading individual on policing in Ireland, has said all along that if we want to reform policing in Ireland we must go outside the State and clean the slate. The existing hierarchy are all from the one crew. The Government will not get reform-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to please put his question.

Deputy Mick Wallace

-----from the existing hierarchy. Why does the Government not want change? Why has the Government not published the terms of reference for the commission of investigation as recommended by the Guerin report?

The Taoiseach

With regard to the file of complaints, some of them came to me. Some of them have dragged on for up to 20 years in various forms. Some have been before various assessment or court procedures. In many cases people look for particular elements of justice, as they see it, arising from these complaints. They are being examined by a panel of legal experts. The legislation in respect of GSOC is before the House. The terms of reference arising from the Guerin report will be dealt with next week.

The interview panel was completely independent. I saw the Deputy's statement that he had applied for the position as the chair of the independent policing authority, which it is in order for him to do.

Deputy Timmy Dooley

Steady now, Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

It seems to me as if the Deputy has very different view of how the system should work, as he says, from the bottom up. I expect Commissioner O'Sullivan will follow through on the Garda Inspectorate's report in terms of the agenda of reform that must be set out. The Government has responded to the requirements of gardaí in terms of new vehicles and facilities for them to do their job. The Garda force has had a lot of work in the most recent past in protecting innocent citizens from those who might have other things on their mind.

It is not true for the Deputy to say this was some sort of inside job. The appointment of the Garda Commissioner was conducted through a rigorous and completely independent process of interview and scrutiny, and the name that came through to the Government for appointment as Garda Commissioner under the Act was that of Commissioner O'Sullivan, and I wish her the very best of luck-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

So do I.

Deputies

Hear, hear.

The Taoiseach

-----in dealing with the many difficulties with which the Garda force has to contend and in being able to implement and follow through on the Garda Inspectorate's report in terms of reform-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I hope you do not send anyone to her house.

The Taoiseach

-----of the Garda Síochána. Having the Garda Commissioner report to the police authority is a radical shift. The role and responsibility of the Garda Commissioner is changed-----

Deputy Mick Wallace

She still remains answerable to the Government and not to the people.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

She could be answering to you.

The Taoiseach

-----somewhat in reporting to the police authority and the Minister for Justice and Equality-----

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

Recognise change.

The Taoiseach

-----in terms of the security of the State.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

When you are Minister for Justice you can-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

Be careful, it might happen.

The Taoiseach

This is the most radical shift in the Garda Síochána since the foundation of the State. The Deputy might have a very different view about how it should operate.