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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 2 Dec 2014

Vol. 860 No. 1

Other Questions

Housing Assistance Payments Administration

Paul Murphy

Question:

85. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government if persons who are housed in accommodation owned by private landlords and paid for by the new housing assistance payment are automatically taken off the housing list; if they are subsequently placed on the transfer list only if they specifically request this rather than this being done automatically; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [45855/14]

If people are housed through private landlords under the new housing assistance payment, HAP, will they be automatically removed from the housing waiting list? Will they have to apply to get on the transfer list, rather than it being automatic? If that is the case, does that represent a false equation of the HAP with people's housing needs being met, for example, through the provision of social housing?

The implementation of the housing assistance payment, HAP, is a key Government priority and a major pillar of the social housing strategy 2020, which I launched last week. Whatever one's opinion, I hope Deputies will see it as a step in the right direction, given the scale of investment that has been secured. The HAP scheme will bring all social housing supports provided by the State under the aegis of local authorities. The scheme will remove a barrier to employment by allowing recipients to remain in the scheme if they gain full-time employment. HAP will also improve regulation of the rented accommodation being supported and provide certainty for landlords as regards their rental income.

Under section 19 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2009, as amended, HAP is deemed to be a social housing support and, consequently, households in receipt of HAP are not entitled to remain on the local authority waiting list for social housing support. However, HAP recipients may access other social housing supports by applying to go on the local authority transfer list.

HAP has been rolled out in seven local authority areas on a pilot basis.

As an immediate step, I have issued a statutory direction to the seven authorities involved, instructing them to take the necessary steps to ensure that households benefitting from HAP can avail of a move to other forms of social housing support, should they so wish, through the transfer option. I have also directed that HAP recipients who apply to go on the transfer list should get full credit for the time they spent on the waiting list and be placed on the transfer list with no less favourable terms than if they had remained on the waiting list. In practice, housing authorities inform HAP recipients in writing of their entitlement to apply to go on the transfer list when they are approved for HAP.

Before the full roll-out of HAP, my Department will undertake a review of the transfer option with the seven pilot authorities, and this will begin soon. This will inform the overall review of the housing allocation system, which is a key action under the social housing strategy. Once the review is complete, I will make the necessary regulations to ensure the transfer option for HAP recipients operates consistently and effectively as part of the national roll-out of the new scheme.

I thank the Minister for the answer. Although he said recipients would have no less favourable terms than they would have had under the old housing waiting list, by definition, those on the transfer list have less favourable terms. Whereas previously, for every person taken off the housing waiting list one person was taken off the transfer list, now for every two people taken off the housing waiting list one is taken from the transfer list. By definition, they will lose out. It seems to be part of the privatisation of the responsibility for providing social housing, saying people's housing needs are met when they are in private rented accommodation. While I welcome the fact that people will be able to work while in receipt of HAP payments, there is no indication of how greater regulation will work. There is no increase of the limits on rent and no indication of how illegal top-ups, which half of those who receive rent supplement engage in, will be dealt with. There is no indication that HAP will deal with the problems.

I thank the Deputy. As the Minister with responsibility, I am monitoring the areas where HAP is being rolled out and I am satisfied that it is working well. The feedback from local authorities is very good. I am glad the Deputy welcomed the fact that allowing people to work while having their housing needs met is a move in the right direction. We are clearly seeing that people are satisfied with it. My predecessor, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, made commitments that anybody who was in receipt of this would be able to avail of the other social housing supports. They were offered the choice, and, by and large, the majority of them are opting to do so. We are happy with the way it is working. The policies we have adopted over the recent years are not a continuation in any way, shape or form of a privatisation of social housing. I have been completely opposed to it, and the strategy announced last week aims to reverse the cycle.

We have the institutionalisation of the long-term provision of social housing through rented accommodation. Instead of the State building the homes that people need and renting them to people, it is giving a massive yearly subsidy - at least €500 million - to private landlords. Half of all the income of private landlords comes from the State, with the top 20 earning almost €5 million. This has been the policy of previous Governments and it is being continued. At the heart of the social housing 2020 strategy are the HAP scheme, public-private partnerships with developers, and outsourcing of social housing to NGOs and approved housing bodies - almost everything but the investment of significant amounts of money to create homes for people.

I am perplexed by the Deputy's analysis. The social housing strategy represents the launch of the largest programme of housing investment in the history of the State, one of the largest programmes of house building by any Government. The Deputy's concerns about the outsourcing of the approved housing bodies, AHBs, worries me.

The approved housing bodies, AHBs, have made a huge contribution in terms of social housing requirements and, in fairness, a number of people across the House have acknowledged that. I know they would not concur with the Deputy's statements. Through the programme I announced last week we are having to bring about a range of measures to ensure that people's housing needs are met by way of the housing assistance payment, HAP, which will be brought out across the country, but also in the long term through the construction programme I announced as part of that to deal with the core issue, which is supply. We do need more houses that are owned by the State and in the plan I announced, given the capital available to do so, and I got all the capital that was possible in terms of a Minister in my position, it is a huge plus for the future that we will have the level of local authority and social housing units built to meet that supply.

Pyrite Issues

Charlie McConalogue

Question:

86. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the considerations he and his Department have provided to the issue of defective blocks in County Donegal; his Department's advice on the way affected householders may be able to proceed in engaging with his Department on this issue; the financial supports for persons who find themselves in this situation; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [40947/14]

This is to ask the Minister the assistance he plans to give to home owners in Donegal whose homes are developing cracks. This is an emerging situation affecting hundreds of homes in the county. What does he plan to do to assist them because these home owners very much need the assistance of the Government?

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue, which I have to admit was first raised with me by Councillor Martin Farren, and subsequently by a number of people. While I fully appreciate and acknowledge the difficult and distressing situations that householders have to deal with when faced with the consequences of the use of defective materials or poor workmanship in homes, building defects are, in general, matters for resolution between the contracting parties involved, that is, the owner, the builder, the manufacturer, the supplier, the quarry owner and-or their respective insurers. In addition and where appropriate, affected home owners should pursue their structural guarantee insurance providers where a structural guarantee insurance is in place.

In the event that the contracting parties cannot reach a settlement by negotiation the option of seeking redress in the courts can be considered. My understanding is that legal proceedings are under way and have been instigated in some of the cases relating to the problems in Donegal, which is the appropriate course of action to take in the event that the responsible parties do not face up to their responsibilities and provide a solution to the affected home owners for whom I have a huge degree of sympathy.

Notwithstanding that, my Department is prepared to review any information that can be made available in these matters, for example, test-laboratory reports on the concrete blocks, structural reports on the affected dwellings etc., and there is a range of other issues also. Having regard to such information, it may be in a position to offer advice which may be of assistance to affected home owners in seeking a resolution to their difficulties. In that regard, a meeting has been arranged between my Department and a delegation of affected home owners. In fact, it actually happened yesterday.

Does the Minister plan to meet the home owners?

The meeting took place yesterday but-----

And he attended it.

-----I have no issue with meeting anyone.

Did the Minister attend that meeting?

I was not available yesterday. I had a few more things going on but I have no issue with meeting them.

I ask the Minister to meet them. This is an emerging issue mainly affecting homes built in the late 1990s and up to the mid-2000s. The number of those affected is growing. It is estimated that hundreds, and probably up to 1,000 or more, homes in County Donegal are affected by it. I note that the Minister is offering sympathy and advice to these home owners but what they need is help from the Department and from himself. To get homes tested to establish the exact problem in each of homes costs thousands of euro which these families simply do not have. Without the Minister getting involved to assist them, they will not be able to deal with the problem and will be left in limbo. I know with respect to the pyrite issue in Dublin that after a long period a resolution board and a panel was set up to get to the bottom of the problem. The Minister needs to explore the situation and establish a similar set-up here, but I ask that he meet with representatives of the home owners and progress that development.

After this issue was first brought to my attention by Councillor Martin Farren, a further investigation took place. It is not about pyrite but mica, which is unique territory. We need to see the analysis and where we can go. My Department will be helpful and progress the matter to obtain some satisfaction for the people who should never have been put in this place by shabby and disgraceful practices. This shows why we need real building control regulations for the future. My Department met them yesterday and had a comprehensive discussion with them. I have not been made privy to the details, although I had a discussion with some people. Once the information has been bought through the system, I will have no problem meeting the representatives, possibly in Donegal if I am there. We will try to monitor the position and make progress because it is an issue.

I emphasise the importance of a quick response from the Minister on this point. A small number of homeowners have carried out tests and identified the presence of Muscovite mica as the problem. Some have had to take remedial action by removing and replacing outside walls. After investigation, others identified outer and inner walls as being affected. The houses date from the late 1990s and early 2000s, which means that it is primarily young families and families with young children who are involved. They do not have the finances to come up with the thousands of euro required to carry out tests. This is where they need the assistance of the Minister who should come on board by establishing a panel with the expertise to engage with each household identified as having a problem and report to the Minister on the extent of the problem in order that solutions can be delivered quickly to assist the families affected, many of whom do not have time on their hands. It is a living nightmare.

The point is well made. A number of people of all political persuasions have contacted me about the issue. There is good will in the Department. Yesterday there was a meeting, but I have not yet had a chance to go through the information provided. My officials will brief me on the issue and we will offer to help, but we must first have the analysis to see what is the current position, the scale of the problem, the individuals involved, the structures affected, the safety consequences and other issues that need analysis. Subsequently, we will examine the best and most prudent direction to take to help them from the Government side and ensure those who did this are dealt with. I have seen some of the photographs of the area. These practices which were prevalent in a number of areas are completely unacceptable and the people who ensured young families would be left in this manner must be followed to the end.

Water Charges Administration

Paul Murphy

Question:

87. Deputy Paul Murphy asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government his views on the increasing of rent for council tenants who refuse to pay water charges. [45854/14]

I ask the Minister for his views on the reported memo from his Department to local authorities raising the idea of increasing rent for council tenants who do not pay water charges and the threat of eviction.

Since 1 January Irish Water has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local levels. The occupier of a property is liable to pay the water charges bill and legislation provides that the owner is the occupier unless the contrary is proved. Irish Water is providing landlords with the opportunity to prove that they are not the occupiers by providing tenants’ names. This will allow Irish Water to contact tenants to complete the registration and bill them thereafter.

The tenant will have to register with Irish Water to avail of the water conservation grant or to get lower charges than the default capped charge, €260, where they are single adult occupants or their metered usage is less than the maximum charge.

Draft legislation which I will bring forward will place certain obligations on landlords where the tenant has not paid charges. In the case of local authority tenants where deposit arrangements do not apply, a customer is in arrears for more than 12 months and a late payment fee has accrued, Irish Water, having first provided the customer with the opportunity to pay the arrears or enter into a payment plan, will advise the local authority concerned of the amount of the arrears. It is envisaged that the legislation would provide for the local authority to recover the amount outstanding over a 12-month period and to remit the amount involved to Irish Water.

These scenarios can be avoided by entering into a payment plan with Irish Water, which I encourage everyone to do. Various easy-pay options will be made available through post offices or other payment providers. The overall net cost for those who register is either €1.15 per week for a single adult household or €3 per week for all others. Water supply will not be reduced under any circumstances, as I have made quite clear already publicly.

My Department will be consulting with the local government sector, social housing providers and landlord and tenant representatives in the course of drafting the necessary legislation to give effect to the measures proposed.

That is outrageous discrimination against local authority tenants. The Minister stated that they could have money stolen from them to pay a tax they do not want to pay, a tax that they are boycotting, together, potentially, with the majority of the population. The Minister has stated, however, that councils should increase their rent to take the money for this charge off them.

Will he comment on the threat of eviction? If local authority tenants do not pay the increased rent that will potentially be imposed on them as a result of these water charges, will they be evicted? Will people be thrown out of their homes for refusing to pay water charges? How do the councils feel about being made into debt collectors for Irish Water? It is clear the Minister has problems with private landlords who do not want to be made into debt collectors. How come measures dealing with these points are not included in the water Bill to come before the House this week? Is it because he is rightly concerned about the reaction it will provoke? If people knew local authority tenants could face eviction for not paying water charges, tens of thousands of people, even more, would flood the streets on 10 December in opposition to this draconian scaremongering measure.

The legislation on this will be before the Houses this week and also early in the new year. Deputy Paul Murphy will obviously have his chance to debate all of this in some detail.

If people enter into a reasonable payment plan, they will avoid all of the issues in question. I do not envisage anyone being thrown out of a local authority house in any way. I am in charge of local authorities and I know the main reason local authority tenants are evicted is anti-social behaviour. I do not envisage any other scenario where eviction would be the course of action.

The Deputy claims local authority tenants are being discriminated against. I do not agree with him. It is only fair that everyone pays their way as regards the contribution to what is necessary for water infrastructure. Hundreds of thousands of people - some of whom are watching these proceedings - already pay for water and have done so for many decades. I do not see Deputy Paul Murphy protesting outside their water schemes, yet they have had to pay thousands of euro over the past number of decades for water. There are two ways of looking at this.

I am happy to explain how this constitutes discrimination. Those who own their own homes will not have money taken off them. Those renting privately may have it taken from their deposit, but that remains to be seen. However, the Minister has stated that council tenants will have their rents increased to take unpaid water charges from them. That amounts to discrimination against those who are council tenants.

Again, will the Minister give a commitment that nobody will be evicted for refusing to pay their water charges? The suggestion that people could be evicted was well reported in the media over the past week or so. Either it is a scare story coming from the Government or some similar source, designed to encourage people to pay and not join the boycott, or there is a basis of truth to it. If the Minister could confirm absolutely that nobody will be evicted for not paying their water charges, it would be helpful and assuage people’s fears.

Finally, the threats will not work, the baby carrot will not work and water charges will be defeated.

I thank the Deputy for his consistency, if nothing else. I have said this before and I will say it again: I do not envisage any person being evicted due to water charges and Irish Water.

Is that a commitment?

I am in charge of local authorities and when people are evicted it is usually for anti-social behaviour, although evictions are rare. Sometimes neighbours cannot live with the anti-social behaviour of others and evictions ensue, but I do not envisage evictions connected to water charges.

The way for people to deal with problems with water charges is through a payment plan, and various mechanisms will allow for this. An Post will be a key component in payment plans in rural areas, but there will be other options and I expect that many people will avail of them.

Radon Gas Levels

Michelle Mulherin

Question:

88. Deputy Michelle Mulherin asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government in view of the public health risk from exposure to high levels of radon gas in homes in certain parts of the country, his views on introducing a grant scheme to assist with the implementation of the National Radon Control Strategy to provide financial assistance firstly to encourage householders to have a radon test carried out and secondly to assist a homeowner with the cost of remediation works where the radon level is found to exceed the recommended maximum level [45882/14]

The serious public health risk posed by exposure to high levels of radon gas in some houses around the country is well known. Radon gas is linked with 250 cases of lung cancer per year in Ireland, and the message of the national radon control strategy is to build awareness and get people to address the issue. In order to assist with the objectives and implementation of the national radon control strategy, I urge the Minister to introduce a grant scheme to assist with the cost of remediation works, which come to around €800 per house, and possibly with the cost of the test.

I thank the Deputy for her important question. The national radon control strategy, which was published on 17 February 2014, was developed by an inter-agency group and sets out some 48 recommendations under six thematic areas. The ultimate aim is to reduce the number of radon-related lung cancer cases. While it is envisaged that the recommendations set out in the strategy will be addressed over a four-year period, it is also recognised that the full impact of the strategy may not be fully realised within this period, as many of the measures implemented will continue to reduce the radon risk in subsequent years.

Successful implementation of the national radon control strategy will require action from a range of Government Departments, public bodies and other stakeholders. It will require the clear identification of responsibilities, good co-ordination between the various stakeholders and effective monitoring of progress. Accordingly, a national radon control strategy co-ordination group has been established to implement and track the key recommendations in the strategy. Led by my Department, it comprises representatives from key Departments and agencies. This group will, inter alia, co-ordinate policies and actions on radon across the relevant Departments and agencies, monitor implementation of the strategy, report annually on progress and, at the end of the four-year period covered by the action plan, make recommendations to the Government on what further actions it considers necessary at that time.

While there are no explicit plans at present to establish a scheme of grant assistance for radon testing or remediation, the national radon control strategy, NRCS, co-ordination group is looking at a wide range of initiatives that seek to better integrate consideration of radon issues into other processes and actions. These include the use of information to be provided in property transactions to drive awareness and promote remedial actions, and also the installation of passive preventative measures in new buildings.

I thank the Minister. I am concerned that although radon has been spoken of for some years, having talked to the Environmental Protection Agency, EPA, and others involved in radiological protection, I have concluded there has been little effect on the general public. This is evidenced by the number of radon tests on houses. The map attached to the national radon control strategy shows certain areas with seriously high levels of radon. I believe part of the problem is that people feel a naturally occurring gas cannot be all that bad. The problem is that radon gets captured and cannot escape, thus causing a serious health risk. I live in Ballina, which has been identified as having a serious radon issue.

The level of radon gas was measured as the equivalent of 27 chest X-rays per day for the individuals living in the house in question, which is very serious. We need to consider giving grants in order that people can assist themselves.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter which, to be honest, is concerning. As I outlined, a programme of work is under way. I have asked my officials to assess the matter and, through the analysis being carried out, ascertain whether a higher level of concern is warranted than when the process started. That would mean that we might need quicker intervention measures. I will return to the Deputy on the matter, but I am not completely ruling out what she is suggesting at some level in the future. It may be possible to scale something in over a period of several years.

The Deputy is right about areas in which there are high radon levels. There are areas in most counties where radon levels are a concern, particularly in some parts of the south east, the west, the south west and the north west. In some areas more than 10% of houses may have radon levels above the reference level. The map is disturbing when analysed in detail. This is my commitment. A group is in place and undertaking work as part of the four year programme. We will look into the matter to determine whether, through the group's analysis, the concern level has heightened to a point where we might need to deal with matter in a more direct and interventionist way.

I would welcome an assessment of the information campaign undertaken by the Environmental Protection Agency. Last week an information campaign was run in County Mayo and several public meetings were held. By no means were the numbers who turned out overwhelming, notwithstanding the radio campaign and so on. People are concerned that this will open a can of worms. They are concerned that they will find out that there are excessive levels of radon in their houses and that they will have to undertake remediation works. Many of them would be unable to afford to pay €800 for this work. We could simply focus on areas that have been identified as high risk where there is uranium in the undersoil and soil conditions are such a person should examine his or her house to establish whether he or she is in danger or at risk from high levels of radon gas. We should support people and any support provided should be meaningful. When they find out that they have a problem, they should be assured that there will be some assistance towards the cost of fixing the problem.

The Deputy has raised a good question. The work of the EPA is ongoing. The public awareness campaign has been moderately successful. On the map to which I referred certain areas have been identified as having higher than normal levels or spikes. That is where the EPA has concentrated its campaign. Having said that, there is a necessity to intensify the campaign to create an organic awareness of this issue. People are aware that there is an issue, but it needs to get more into the mainstream of their consciousness. I have asked officials to consider ways in which we can ensure the EPA, working through my Department, will be able to do this.

Local and Community Development Programme Project Funding

Maureen O'Sullivan

Question:

89. Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan asked the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government the position on the potential 38% cuts to community groups as represented by the Dublin inner city community alliance; how he expects progress with these cuts; if he has provided the alliance with the allocation model; and if he will meet the group to discuss its concerns. [40939/14]

This question relates to the potential 38% cuts in funding for community groups in the inner city. They have sought access to the rational allocation model from the Minister. Furthermore, they would welcome an opportunity to discuss their concerns about the cuts with him since they are causing much stress and distress.

I thank the Deputy for raising this issue. She has spoken about it previously and I accept that it is a source of concern.

Within the constraints of the prevailing budgetary situation I have been particularly mindful of the need to prioritise funding for the local and community development programme, until March 2015, and its successor, the social inclusion and community activation programme, from April 2015. It was necessary to do this and it is welcome that I have done so. My aim is to ensure resources are allocated in the fairest way possible and make the maximum contribution to tackling disadvantage, job creation and economic recovery.

The intention of my Department is over time to use the available knowledge of population levels and disadvantage to ensure available resources are targeted at areas of greatest need. As a tool to assist in this process, the resource allocation model, RAM, which will be made available has been developed. It allows relative disadvantage to be measured throughout all census areas. To achieve the objective of moving towards allocating resources according to this model, in recent years my Department has worked to ensure funding is protected for those areas with greatest need according to the RAM. This principle was used to decide on funding allocations for the social inclusion and community activation programme and I am satisfied that the funding allocated to Dublin's inner city under SICAP is a fair allocation of resources using the model.

The funding reduction referred to should be considered in the context of several specific factors which applied to the Dublin inner city funding arrangements under the current programme. In particular, the community development programme funding model was not based on population and deprivation levels, as proposed for SICAP, instead providing funding for two staff, on average, and overheads in each project. In addition, the fact that there was no local development company in the inner city gave rise to a higher number of separate structures and associated costs relative to other areas, creating scope for efficiency savings to be made in the new arrangements under SICAP. Notwithstanding this and since it is a matter of concern, my Department will be liaising with Dublin City Council and other appropriate stakeholders to find a workable solution in terms of transitional arrangements that may be required in the specific circumstances arising in the inner city. In the meantime, local and community development programme funding for the groups concerned will continue until the end of March 2015.

I have already been told that in the period from January to April there will be a cut of approximately 6%. It is important that the Minister meet the groups in question and listen to their concerns. The statistics are available. This area has the highest number of unemployed persons, as well as the highest number of lone parents. I am unsure whether the allocation model to which the Minister referred is getting to the core of all of the issues involved. I will outline one story. I attended a project graduation ceremony recently. Certificates were given to those who had undergone training and some of the graduates were not able to attend. Why? The reason was they were in work. That shows how these projects in communities are working. I am keen for the Minister to take the opportunity, if only for a short period, to hear about the work being done because sometimes these organisations and individuals are lost in the percentages and models to which the Minister referred. Is the Minister prepared to meet them?

I have already confirmed to the House that I am prepared to meet them. There is no issue in that regard; it is a question of agreeing a time. That is my commitment. The process must be gone through. It has begun and it is necessary to undertake it as part of the tendering process. It needs to be executed. I am determined to ensure a fair solution to the issues involved which have been raised by several Deputies will be found, either through the SICAP model or whatever necessary measures need to be taken in parallel with the process. It is not possible to go into the detail of the matter now, but I assure the Deputy that I will be keeping a close eye on it to ensure a fair distribution.

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