Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 21 Jan 2015

Vol. 864 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Tomorrow, more than 700 secondary schools will close, which is very regrettable for students in particular, particularly those doing examinations. It is all because of the approach the Government originally took to junior cycle reform and in particular, the assessment dimension and the former Minister, Deputy Quinn, ignoring the recommendations of the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment, NCCA, and the teachers in his original announcement and declarations. In the context of much of what he proposed, that did not work particularly well and the new Minister had to reverse quite a lot of what he suggested and his approach in particular.

Such a strike does impact on students, particularly examination students. We are coming close to the pre-leaving certificate and pre-junior certificate examinations as well as the real examinations in May and June. This strike was avoidable. The essence of the issue is the credibility and integrity of the assessment system. Teachers have articulated the view that this would fundamentally impair and damage the relationship between teacher and student in the classroom. There is also a view out there that it could fatally undermine the integrity of the State assessment process.

I acknowledge and welcome the fact that there has been compromise but I made the point on the last occasion on which I raised this issue that this needed some fresh thinking and that people need to stand back and facilitate other approaches to resolving this issue. All stakeholders must be on board. The fundamental relationship in education and the learning process is the dynamic between the child and the teacher in the classroom. One cannot just ram it through as the former Minister tried to do and one cannot have preconditions around negotiations.

We have other examples where we successfully piloted curriculum reform in the past. The primary school curriculum, which was a very substantive reform in 1999, has been externally evaluated in terms of its impact and work because stakeholders were brought on board over time. Other reforms at senior cycle over the years have also worked in terms of the leaving certificate applied and other leaving certificate programmes as opposed to the mainstream leaving certificate so there is a way of doing this. The Government needs to change tack and, in particular, needs to acknowledge the very genuine and fundamental concerns teachers have in respect of the proposals before them. I ask the Taoiseach to speak with the Minister, to stand back and to look at a fresh approach to resolving this issue once and for all.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin is right to raise the point, which he knows from his own experience, that the only people who suffer here are the students. It is of particular concern to them that a second day of strike is taking place tomorrow. Deputy Martin is also right when he says that the strike is avoidable. It is avoidable. The Minister has made it perfectly clear on more than one occasion that she is quite willing to engage further with and talk to teachers and teacher groups about this. This strike is still avoidable if the teachers should decide that this would be so and I ask that they would do so because the only people who suffer are the students.

This is not a case of the Minister implementing by diktat the original proposal from the former Minister. She has compromised a good deal and has changed the nature of the first series of proposals from the former Minister. The junior certificate is an important part of a young person's life. The changes that are being made and the assessment methods that are being proposed by the Minister have taken into account what the teachers said about their relationship with the Department and Minister. I suggest that the people who are mostly discommoded here are students who are in many cases preparing for examinations later on in the year. The teachers should reflect on the changes and compromises the Minister has accepted from them and that what is on the table now is a series of very reasonable and achievable objectives which will enhance the status of teachers and the integrity of the examination. The Minister has gone out of her way on many occasions to say that she has listened carefully to teachers, has taken into account what they have said and has put a very different set of propositions on the table. Everybody should run with that. I ask that the strike be called off.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The issue is that the Minister has brought us back to where we were three years ago because the original NCCA working group recommended a 60:40 divide with 60% being given to a written terminal examination and 40% being given to assessment. The former Minister just unilaterally ignored the NCCA working group and went off on his own singular move to say that we will abolish external certification and assessment in its entirety. He lost the teachers in the process. Three years later, the current Minister is essentially trying to regain lost ground. That is the net issue.

Nobody has any issue with the reform in terms of the content or substance of the learning processes or the idea of changing how we teach and learn across the junior certificate cycle. However, we should acknowledge that the assessment issue is an important principle because the ultimate fear is whether this will follow through to the leaving certificate and whether we will get a dumbed-down version of State assessment because national standards and a national curriculum are important. There are strengths the Irish education system has had. Key to underpinning those is a robust national certification programme and process. That can take many forms. I accept that nobody has a veto but no programme can be successfully or enthusiastically implemented if people are not enthusiastically engaged and on board. It is no fault of the Minister. I blame her predecessor. Much ground was lost in terms of rolling out this reform and getting it through because of the ham-fisted and appalling nature of its attempted implementation.

The Minister should stand back. There are other ways of cracking this. Other curricular reforms at senior certificate level, such as the leaving certificate applied, were introduced in other ways. The Minister should just stand back, stop saying "you have to be this or that", see whether we can get a working model that would satisfactorily resolve this and above all, prevent undue stress. It is stress for anyone doing the leaving certificate.

They want to be in school and focus on their examination preparations. It is regrettable that we are again facing a strike. Rather than following the dictum or advice, I suggest the Government stand back and look at more creative ways of resolving the issue. That could be done.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Education and Skills did stand back to consider the proposals that were on the table. She engaged with the teachers, listened to them, took on board what they had said and changed the nature of the proposals. Change is always difficult to accept. It was not the Minister or the students who called the strike; it was called by the teachers. One element of what the Minister is proposing that is in the interests of teachers is the conditioning and demonstration of the assessment methods for the examinations. There is a strong element of national assessment in the junior certificate. As the Deputy is aware, it is an examination that has to evolve and change in the changing world in which we live. I agree that the strike is avoidable. Even today it can be avoided if the teachers take on board that the Minister has engaged with them and is willing to continue engaging with them. There is a changed element of assessment and support is being provided for teachers to do their jobs. It is about the quality of the students who can emerge from the process, the integrity of the examination system and the capacity of teachers to undertake this element of work. They know all of this. The changes being proposed by the Minister are reasonable and fair and the outcome of engaging and listening to the teachers. The strike is avoidable and the only ones who will suffer are the children and students. I ask teachers at this late stage to take this on board.

Deputy Gerry Adams

As a lapsed teacher, I am sure the Taoiseach will agree with me that learning and education are pillars of society. Many of us, myself included, can point to a teacher or teachers who had a pivotal influence on us as we were pointed in certain directions in our lives' journeys. The teachers do not want to go on strike, but that is what will happen tomorrow, causing great disruption for students in particular, as well as for their families and teachers.

The core of the issue, as the Taoiseach indicated, is reform of the junior cycle. It has boiled down to the key issue of teachers assessing their own students for certification purposes. Broadly, Sinn Féin supports all of the progressive reforms and proposals the Government has brought forward, except on the one issue of assessment. It makes sense that assessments should be impartial, external and standardised. The Minister has conceded that principle by saying teachers do not have to assess 60% of their students' work. We are in this bind because she insists on imposing a veto whereby teachers must assess 40% of their students' work. Sinn Féin agrees with the Minister's strategy of moving away from rote learning, but the intransigence shown on this issue has made a strike inevitable. The Taoiseach will acknowledge there needs to be agreement. Teachers are fundamental to how we progress. If they do not embrace this change, it will become a series of disruptions, especially for the young people involved. I ask the Taoiseach to review what he has said on the matter. We have tabled a Private Members' business motion on it and asked the Minister to review what she is doing, postpone further implementation of the junior cycle reform and return to the negotiating table to seek a reasonable agreed - not imposed - resolution of this important issue.

The Taoiseach

I share the Deputy's view on the importance of strong leadership from teachers, which has an incredible impact on many young minds and is important in terms of the quality and attractiveness of Irish students for what they do.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Government damaged that relationship. That is the issue.

The Taoiseach

Teaching plays an important role in this regard. This is not a case of the Minister imposing by diktat something that has been considered. Compromise has been brought about because she has engaged with teachers and listened carefully to what they have had to say. I recently spoke to somebody from a country which had changed the entire structure of examinations to one where boxes were ticked and papers corrected by computer. That is not possible with an essay or under the structure in place here. The Minister has changed the proposal to assessment of 40% of a student's work. Teachers know their students better than anybody else and are professionals. Assessments by teachers cover 100% of work in a range of subjects in many other countries. Teachers here are being asked to assess 40% of the work done by their pupils. The training element included is very important in allowing teachers to do a professional job for their students. The strike is avoidable and could be called off today. It was not the students, the parents or the Minister who called the strike; it was called by the teachers. The proposals on the table are the consequence of the Minister having engaged and listened. She thinks the proposals are very reasonable and asks the teachers to proceed with them. She is always willing to engage with and listen to teachers' groups and unions. I appeal to them to call off the strike today. The students who were in the Visitors Gallery a few minutes ago do not want the strike to proceed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

They do not want their teachers to assess them.

The Taoiseach

It is important that students are able to prepare for their examinations. Teachers are professionals and an element of assessing their own pupils is something they can manage with credibility and confidence.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Why is the Taoiseach taking such a hardline stance? Teachers are the professionals. They are the folks who know about the matter. Given the bind we are in, the Minister will end up sitting down with the teachers. She will return to the negotiating table and the issue will in all likelihood be resolved at some point. We should listen to what the teachers are saying. The implication of the Taoiseach's reply is that in some way they do not want to do the extra work. That is not the case. I am concerned that the training and funding necessary for the proposed changes have not been provided. We stand on the principle that assessments should be external and standardised, but teachers of English are required to implement the framework for the junior cycle English specification after receiving only one day of in-service training. We should not take lightly the fact that 730 schools will close tomorrow. The principal responsibility for resolving the difficulties lies with the Government. The teachers have reiterated their support for a first-class junior cycle for all students, including a move away from reliance on final written examinations and the promotion of different types of assessment such as more practical project and portfolio work. Teachers are innovative in how they approach their work. It is not enough to say the Government or the students did not call the strike. We know that. This comes down to the Government digging in on a position - I do not know the basis for it - that teachers have to assess 40% of their students' work. Surely that is bridgeable. I again ask the Taoiseach to review his stance. This is the time for the Minister to try to avert the strike tomorrow. She should speak to the unions this afternoon and evening, listen to their fears and concerns and deliver on what they are saying.

The Taoiseach

It is not a hardline stance. Everybody accepts that there is a need to change the structure of the junior certificate examinations. A number of proposals have been tabled during the years as to how this might happen.

There is an evolution of change here for the junior certificate. The proposition on the table follows the Minister having listened very carefully to the teacher unions. If the teacher unions decide to call off the strike today, I am sure the Minister is willing to engage with them again if there an element of difference or something else they wish to put on the table.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

There should not be pre-conditions.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Government should move on assessment.

The Taoiseach

However, we must change the structure of it. The Deputy has made the point himself - I agree with him - that the responsibility does not just lie with the Government. The Deputy recognises the need for change and it cannot be changed without the co-operation, willingness and support of teaching professionals. What was on the table was an original proposition from the former Minister, Deputy Ruairí Quinn, and that has been changed by the Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, having engaged with the teachers. These are young people who are doing their junior certificate examination and it is a system that must change. To assess 40% of the work of a junior certificate pupil is not beyond the professional competency of any teacher.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is to miss the point entirely.

The Taoiseach

While change is often difficult to accept, what we are doing is trying to provide the very best level of first examination process for students moving through secondary school. The Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, and her people have spent hours engaging with unions and teachers on this change. It is a very progressive step in the right direction so that the integrity, quality, range and structure of that examination will be what we all want it to be; one that caters for the individual talents, competencies and levels of ability of students going through the junior certificate. If the unions decide today to issue a statement saying the strike is off, that will be welcomed by the Minister, and the many thousands of parents and students, particularly those doing examinations.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Will the Government move on the assessment issue?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Drop the bad idea.

The Taoiseach

As she has said on many occasions, the Minister is more than willing to continue to work and engage with teacher unions. I ask for that to happen. At the end of the day, this position will be resolved. The Minister has put a compromise on the table that is very reasonable and that should be accepted.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Except for assessment. There is no surrender on assessment.

Deputy Tom Fleming

I welcome the recent announcement of job creation proposals by Government. The only problem I have is that after four years of the 31st Dáil it is inadequate. We are still in a dire situation and have one of the longest-standing and highest long-term unemployment rates in the European Union despite initiatives such as changes to the welfare system and more training for young people seeking work. Youth unemployment is rampant at 26%, which is unacceptably high. For every job created, five people have emigrated. We have seen that reality in particular in rural Ireland where many parishes and sporting organisations are decimated and do not have the necessary numbers to make up sporting teams. Many of the jobs that have been created are low paid or temporary and 25,000 people are attending activation schemes and classified as being employed notwithstanding that they are only on short-term training schemes in reality. It does not give a true indication of their status.

An indicator is the number of people on social welfare benefits for a very long term of over three years. Over the past five years, the number of people claiming unemployment benefit for more than three years has increased fourfold, or 300% in percentage terms. When figures on the very long-term jobless were first published in 2009, there were 25,000 people in the State who had been on jobseeker's benefit for more than three years. The figures for 2014 show that almost 100,000 were in this predicament, which is more than one in four people who are now on the dole for more than three years. One of the most significant problems for those on the long-term unemployment register is that it is self-perpetuating. People who are without a job for a long period are statistically less likely to find work as employers naturally favour those with suitable skills. The Government must pursue the matter relentlessly over the remaining term of the Dáil, in particular through the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the relevant Ministers of State. I call on the Government to pursue the matter more vigorously than it has in the past four years.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy Tom Fleming for his question and comments. He has put his finger on the central issue for Government and one of the twin pillars of the mandate it was given: to fix our public finances and put our country back to work. I agree with Deputy Fleming that when a person is out of work for more than a year, or for two years and longer, it becomes very difficult to get the individual to be motivated to want to go to work. There are a number of incentives in there. The emphasis of the Government as espoused on many occasions by the Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, is to do everything possible from a Government perspective to ease entry into work, to make it attractive here for investment for the creation of jobs and so on. If one does not have stability, one cannot have confidence and if one does not have that, one will not have investment. If one does not have investment, one will not have jobs.

Since the Government published the Action Plan for Jobs, 80,000 new jobs have been created. Unemployment has fallen for almost 30 months in a row from over 15% to just over 10%. While that is a radical improvement of more than 30%, it is still not sufficient. We must continue to focus as a Government on this particular problem as the best exit from poverty is the route through a job. That is why Government has changed the social protection services and established Intreo offices in every major town where the unemployed on the live register are profiled as being suitable for particular employers who are looking to expand their businesses. More than 130,000 people came off the live register last year and the Minister has introduced local employment offices in each local authority so that small businesses and medium enterprises can access all of the advice, information and assistance that is available to them for ease of employment or credit.

I note that 250,000 people lost their jobs as a consequence of the economic catastrophe that befell our country and many of them emigrated. Of those, 100,000 were from other countries, particularly in eastern Europe, who had come here to work in the construction sector. However, many of our own left and many still leave. I listened to an interview the other day with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and the emphasis seemed to be that if one brought back young emigrants there might be a problem. We would welcome them back. I am glad to see that there is a rise not only in interest in coming back but in people returning here with skills and new experience, which is where we want to be. In respect of the long-term unemployed, there are incentives being put in place by Government such as the housing assistance payment and child benefit for those who are out of work for a period and who go back into a job. The social protection assistance they receive will not be cut off immediately, including medical cards and so on.

The Deputy makes the point and it is central to Government that we continue to focus on creating more jobs. Our ambition this year is to have 40,000 new jobs created in the course of 2015 and to have almost 500,000 people taken out of the requirement to pay the universal social charge. The emphasis from Government is on the hard pressed 30,000 to 70,000 and, strictly, on the creation of jobs. As a Deputy from Kerry, I note to Deputy Fleming that the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation has the approval of Government to spread the benefits of a rising economy throughout provincial and rural Ireland so that every town in time benefits from the creation of jobs. Nothing is more important in the lives of people than to have the stability of a good, well-paid job. That is where the continued focus and priority of Government will be for this year.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Tell the IDA to bring jobs to Kerry.

Deputy Tom Hayes

Can the Deputy not tell the IDA?

Deputy Tom Fleming

Some of the schemes offer zero hour contracts, JobBridge positions or part-time work and they are unsustainable. Many people finish their training schemes further along the long-term unemployed list. The jobs are low-paid and insufficient. The IDA has fallen well short of its targets for attracting foreign investment, particularly in the regions outside Dublin and Cork cities. The IDA is putting all its resources and energy into getting larger companies to settle in these two areas and there is no focus on attracting smaller companies that would be better suited to the rural peripheral counties. My county, which the Taoiseach regularly visits and knows very well, received only three visits from the IDA in 2014. It is ridiculous. Several major employers in the county have been closed in recent years and nothing has been done to replace them. The county is an industrial wasteland, and we can see it in our towns, villages and communities where there has been major emigration, and allowing this to happen gives us no hope. I ask the Taoiseach and the Minister personally to take it up with the IDA and ensure we get a better deal than we have had in the past ten years in particular.

The Taoiseach

I disagree with Deputy Tom Fleming's comment that there is no hope at all. There is a proven record of stabilising and growing many sectors. For example, the Government reduced the VAT rate in the hospitality sector from 13.5% to 9%. It stabilised the industry and created another 25,000 jobs. We also abolished the travel tax and implemented the concept of the Wild Atlantic Way, with a direct impact on the Deputy's county. These are demonstrations of how the Government can benefit the creation of jobs and the economy throughout provincial Ireland. The intention is to spread it throughout the country. During our Presidency of the European Union, we negotiated a very strong programme for rural development, more than €2.5 billion, which awaits approval from the European Commission for the various programmes throughout the country. The abolition of milk quotas has had a very beneficial effect in terms of money flowing through the system for land acquisition and leasing. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, has made a number of changes in the last two budgets to impact directly on the agriculture sector, which created more than 5,000 jobs last year.

I disagree with the Deputy about the IDA. It is a world class model for the introduction of potential investors to this country and the pipeline is very strong, with 15,000 gross, or 7,500 net, new jobs created last year. It is held up to be one of the foremost organisations of its kind globally. Our talent pool, the tax system we now have, with the ending of the stateless concept and the double Irish, our technology and our track record are second to none. Enterprise Ireland deals with small and medium enterprises, where the emphasis is on growing all those numbers on the backs of small companies that are able to export or service multinationals while they are here. The approval of the Connect Ireland scheme for very small operators could benefit any county. The scheme incentivises people from Ireland who are working for companies outside the EU that want to invest in Europe to connect the company with our country. Far from being despondent, I see 2015 and beyond as years of great opportunity, and the Government will focus relentlessly on making it more attractive for more jobs to be created.