Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 5 Mar 2015

Vol. 870 No. 3

Order of Business

The Tánaiste

It is proposed to take No. a18, motion re Standing Order 107J; No. 18, Revised Estimates for Public Services 2015 - Votes 1 to 40, inclusive, back from committee; and No. 3, Gender Recognition Bill 2014 [Seanad] - Second Stage (resumed).

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. a18 shall be decided without debate; that, in the case of No. 18, Votes 1 to 40, inclusive, shall be moved together and decided by one question which shall be put from the Chair and that the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 25 minutes and that the following arrangements shall apply: the speeches of a Minister or a Minister of State and the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group who shall be called upon in that order shall not exceed five minutes in each case; such Members may share their time; the speech of a Minister or a Minister of State who shall be called upon to make a speech in reply shall not exceed five minutes; and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith.

Friday's fortnightly business shall be No. 74, Thirty-Fourth Amendment to the Constitution (Neutrality) Bill 2013; and No. 19, report on penal reform.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with No. a 18, motion re Standing Order 107J, without debate, agreed to? Agreed.

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 18, Revised Estimates for Public Services 2015 - Votes 1 to 40, inclusive, agreed to?

Deputy Sean Fleming

The Tánaiste is guillotining the debate on the Revised Estimates, for which she wants to allow 25 minutes. I thought the Government had learned a few lessons and would not use the Dáil as a rubber-stamp or force items through which it was afraid to debate. Using the jackboot the Tánaiste wants to guillotine the debate. The Dáil should not be used as a rubber-stamp by the Government. As Opposition spokesperson on public expenditure and reform, I asked for a three-hour debate. The debate should be detailed and about the choices made by the Government and its priorities, and lack thereof, in deciding where taxpayers' money should be spent this year.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

This is a speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

It should be a brief contribution. I do not want anymore interruptions.

Deputy Sean Fleming

It will be very brief and concise. The figure with which we are dealing is €53 billion of taxpayers' money, of which €38 billion is net expenditure, down 2.7% from last year. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform will say the Revised Estimates were discussed at the committees, but the overall choices made and the priorities as between Departments were not discussed by any committee. Each line Department discussed its Estimates, but there was no debate in the Chamber or elsewhere about the Government's priorities in the areas of health, social protection, agriculture and job creation. Last December the Tánaiste forced through Supplementary Estimates without debate and without information being provided at the time. I thought she had learned something, but, as leader of the Labour Party, she clearly has not because the Estimate for her Department was only discussed yesterday afternoon, less than 24 hours ago. At that committee meeting she gave a commitment to provide information on the savings accruing to the Department in transferring recipients, mainly women, from the one-parent family payment to the jobseeker's payment. She has not yet provided that information.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We cannot have a debate on the matter now. There is too much detail involved.

Deputy Sean Fleming

I am almost finished.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are others-----

Deputy Sean Fleming

There will be the use of the guillotine in one minute but I will not have my contribution guillotined. The Tánaiste yesterday gave a commitment to provide information for our spokesperson and the committee on the cost of restoring the respite care grant to its previous level, but she has not yet done so. She is forcing the issue to a vote today without the information requested at the committee meeting having been provided. At the weekend the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform spoke about having a general discussion and including the Opposition, but within 48 hours of making that statement he will guillotine the debate on the Revised Estimates which involve Government expenditure of €53 billion. I oppose the proposal.

The Tánaiste

I suppose it is a little like Rip Van Winkle. Did the Deputy miss all of the debates at the time the budget was announced?

Deputy Brendan Howlin

He was away that day.

The Tánaiste

Perhaps he was very busy elsewhere. However, there were very extensive debates.

Deputy Sean Fleming

This information was published since the budget was announced.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste has the floor.

(Interruptions).

The Tánaiste

The Deputy should calm down and relax. Dáil reform was championed in the previous Dáil by the Deputy's then party leader and former Taoiseach, former Deputy Brian Cowen. We decided to engage in detailed discussions at the committees on all of the Estimates. As the then finance spokesperson, I listened to endless discussions on how we should debate and examine outcomes. Yesterday, last week, the week before and perhaps even the week before that, almost every Minister spent approximately two to three hours at committee meetings which the Deputy's party, when in government, stated would lead to Dáil reform. Perhaps we got something wrong because at the time the rest of us actually agreed that the process would allow an in-depth analysis of the Estimates. We did what the Deputy's party asked us to do. Most Members, including many on the Opposition benches, appreciate the opportunity to engage in in-depth debate, as I did for a couple of hours yesterday on social welfare spending of €19 billion, during which a couple of hundred questions must have been asked. Where I did not have the full answer sought, I said I would be in touch in writing with Deputy Willie O'Dea. I left the debate in the middle of the afternoon to take part in some other work being done in the Dáil. I came here at 9.30 a.m. and have not yet sat down to write to Deputy Willie O'Dea but I will do so, as I do in normal course, in reply to one or two queries that he raised.

I do not know why Deputy Sean Fleming is so agitated about this issue because this is what he wanted. There has been detailed debate on all of the Revised Estimates. Fianna Fáil Members took part in all of the debates, including Deputy Willie O'Dea at the committee meeting I attended. If Deputy Sean Fleming wants to vote against the Revised Estimates, that is fine. However, when the motions were put to the committees to refer them back the Dáil, nobody complained. I will take into account what the Deputy has raised and if we can be of assistance in dealing with his queries, I will certainly undertake to see to it that that happens.

Question put: "That the proposals for dealing with No. 18 be agreed to.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 71; Staon, ; Níl, 24.

Tá

• Barry, Tom.
• Burton, Joan.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Cannon, Ciarán.
• Carey, Joe.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Conlan, Seán.
• Coonan, Noel.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Creed, Michael.
• Crowe, Seán.
• Daly, Clare.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• English, Damien.
• Feighan, Frank.
• Ferris, Anne.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Gilmore, Eamon.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Howlin, Brendan.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Keating, Derek.
• Keaveney, Colm.
• Kelly, Alan.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• Lyons, John.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McFadden, Gabrielle.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McLellan, Sandra.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Maloney, Eamonn.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Brien, Jonathan.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Mahony, John.
• O'Reilly, Joe.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Ring, Michael.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Stanton, David.
• Tóibín, Peadar.
• Varadkar, Leo.
• Wall, Jack.
• Wallace, Mick.
• Walsh, Brian.

Níl

• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Joan.
• Collins, Niall.
• Coppinger, Ruth.
• Creighton, Lucinda.
• Fitzmaurice, Michael.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Kelleher, Billy.
• Kirk, Seamus.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• Mathews, Peter.
• Murphy, Paul.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Troy, Robert.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Emmet Stagg and Joe Carey; Níl, Deputies Sean Fleming and Seán Ó Fearghaíl.

Question declared carried.