Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 12 Mar 2015

Vol. 871 No. 3

Order of Business

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Jan O'Sullivan)

It is proposed to take No. b11 motion re membership of committees; No. c11, motion re ministerial rota for parliamentary questions; No. 33, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Finance Act 2004 (Section 91) (Deferred Surrender to the Central Fund) Order 2015, back from committee; and No. 36, Children and Family Relationships Bill 2015 - Report Stage (resumed) and Final Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. b11, c11 and 33 shall be decided without debate and that the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 March 2015.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal that Nos. b11, c11 and 33 be decided without debate agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal that the Dáil on its rising today shall adjourn until 2 p.m. on Tuesday, 24 March 2015 agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Given that the teachers' unions have not found favour with Dr. Travers' recent proposals relating to junior certificate reform, given the botched manner in which this was dealt with historically, particularly by the Minister's predecessor, Deputy Quinn, who in a very ham-fisted way ignored the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment's original recommendations on this issue, and given the very bad relations and entrenched positions that developed as a result of his approach, does the Minister not agree it is time to go back to the drawing board? She should stand back from the issue and engage with the teaching profession on the issue of independent assessment and the best methodology to use to develop the talents and intelligence of young people. That is an important issue which is being lost because of how this debate has been conducted over the past two years. There is the issue of the lack of independent assessment, and we must be clear about that. By visiting rural schools, one can see how closely knit communities are, which raises substantial issues that are being dismissed too readily. Teachers have a valid point on this issue because the one good thing about our State examination system is that, irrespective of background, students get fair treatment. It is one of the few systems in the country about which we can say that influence or knowing someone in the parish, the golf club, the GAA club, the rugby club and so forth will have no impact on the outcome or result. There are legitimate and substantive issues. There are also legitimate issues about how we teach and learn.

I accept that. There have been reforms through the years, such as different forms of the leaving certificate, namely the leaving certificate applied and the leaving certificate vocational. I would like to know when the education (miscellaneous provisions) Bill will be published. It would be good if people stood back from all this because it is not going go anywhere the way it is being handled. Ramming it through will not be effective because curricular change ultimately needs the full engagement and participation of stakeholders. The key dynamic in the classroom is the one between the teacher and the child which is central to the successful roll-out of change.

My second question relates to the proposed education Bill. Recent parliamentary replies have suggested that the concept of an independent ex quota provision for careers guidance counselling will never return to schools. The Minister has said that more or less in parliamentary replies to my colleague. Is this the position and is careers guidance something that will never return to the classroom to the degree and scale that pertained before the Government's decision to abolish ex-quota careers guidance counsellors, which removed 1,000 teachers from the system? Deputy McConalogue has been persistent in pursuing this issue with the Minister for the past year or more and the responses have become more alarming in the sense of it being all about the school community but with no additional resources being given. All the lip service to mental health and the challenges young people face in schools and society-----

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

How long does the Deputy have?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Sorry?

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

I am just wondering as I have a question to ask.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Deputy has 16 more minutes. He should not become part of the Sinn Féin agenda of suppressing legitimate articulation of views and perspectives. Will the Minister clarify the matter and tell me when we can expect the education Bill?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I am not sure if the Bill in question is the Education (Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which was the subject of the first part of the Deputy's question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Yes.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

That has already been published and is before the Houses. In respect of the junior cycle, which is not part of that Bill, I have had 40 hours of discussions with teaching unions. An independent chairperson whose name was proposed by the unions put forward what he considered to be fair proposals and the unions have still withdrawn from consideration. I believe we need this reform. While the Deputy says we have a fair system, it is fair at assessing what a person can write in a written examination at the end of three years but it is not fair to all students because it does not assess a variety of strengths that young people have nowadays. I also have a duty to the other partners in education such as the Irish Second-Level Students' Union, the National Parents Council and the management bodies who want us to move forward with this reform.

The particular concern I have with the Deputy's contribution is that he seems to be suggesting that teachers are so unprofessional that they would not be able to carry out this assessment without being intimidated into making decisions that are not in the best interests of students. I very much respect and value the professionalism of teachers, as does the rest of the country. They are held in very high regard. This reform has been proposed for a long time and we need to move it forward in the interests of all stakeholders.

The Deputy mentioned resources for careers guidance, referred to my predecessor, Deputy Quinn, and suggested that he handled this badly. I reject that contention. The reason my predecessor had to cut funding in the Department of Education and Skills, as all other Ministers had to cut funding, was because of the way the economy was left to them when they came into Government. It was inevitable that funds would be cut from the education budget.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister to conclude.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

For the first time, I have been able to negotiate an increase in the education budget because we are building up the economy and increasing the number of people who are working and paying taxes. I will look at all areas.

Schools have an obligation to provide guidance to students. The issue Deputy Martin is talking about is ring-fenced hours for specific guidance teachers, but schools have an obligation. We must deal with demographics and growing numbers but we will look at a variety of areas where investment can be made.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I want some quiet and some brevity because we are moving on.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Last night, the Government did not oppose the passage of Sinn Féin legislation on extending the vote in presidential elections to citizens living outside the State - the diaspora and citizens living in the North. Can we get an assurance from the Minister that this was not a tactic simply to sidestep the issue? Will the Minister give her view about the likely taking of that legislation on Committee Stage? As she is aware, the legislation reflects a recommendation made by the Convention on the Constitution, and I am sure the Government is anxious to respect those conclusions.

Will the Minister give a progress report on the adoption (tracing and information) Bill?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We did not oppose Sinn Féin's proposals last night. A number of recommendations from the convention are under regular consideration by the Government. We have indicated which proposals will be put to the people this year, and the people are well aware of the issues that will be put before them. A number of issues, including the one raised by Sinn Féin, will be considered in terms of what might be future issues for referenda.

The adoption (tracing and information) Bill is expected later this year.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Court hearings are taking place in Clonmel in respect of 55 repossessions. I am delighted the Minister is here and that the Minister for Finance is minding the country when the rest of his colleagues have gone. It is like the flight of the earls. When the Government came to power, the Taoiseach confined travel to ten people. Now the whole lot are gone. I am asking whether, under the family leave Bill, we all have full permission and clearance to go. Seriously, all of the Government will be gone.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

What legislation is the Deputy referring to in respect of repossessions?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am referring to two Bills. The Minister might or might not be aware that there is an order for the O'Donnell family to be evicted from Gorse Hill at 5 p.m. tomorrow when the Government will be in absentia and the courts will be closed. I am not fighting for Gorse Hill but I am fighting for the hundreds of people receiving the same treatment, much of it unfair, from the judicial system. Where is the judicial council Bill?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Minister for Finance did not promise it.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister for Finance did promise it. He said last week that it was not a problem in Limerick. He promised to change the Personal Insolvency Act. He introduced the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act, which was more like an eviction Act. It was just a fancy name for it. I am glad the Minister for Finance is remaining at home and I wish the Minister for Education and Skills well on her travels because the rest of the Government will be gone. People are suffering. A total of 55 cases are being heard in Clonmel today - half the county. There were 200 cases in Limerick last week, but does the Government care? Members of the Government have left the country. It is a Government in absentia. Where is the judicial council Bill? Deputy Ross introduced a Bill last session. Where is the criminal justice (corruption) Bill? We need this Bill to stop corruption.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The judicial council Bill and the criminal justice (Corruption) Bill will be taken this session. As the Deputy is aware, the Government will announce measures next month. The Taoiseach answered as Gaeilge yesterday about the Government announcing measures. Deputy Penrose has made a very fine contribution to this issue in respect of the Bill he has put forward.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

When will the criminal law (sexual offences) (amendment) Bill be published? I know it is on the "A" list and is long awaited. It will deal with significant issues like child grooming and the use of prostitution, so I hope it will be published as soon as possible.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

We expect to publish that Bill this session.

Deputy Joe Carey

I wish to inquire about No. 69 on the legislation programme. I also congratulate Cratloe Post Office Action Group on its success today. Post office services will be retained in Cratloe until September 2016.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Joe Carey

When will the communications regulation (postal services) (amendment) Bill be published?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Later this year.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

No. 76 on the legislative list is the Red Cross (amendment) Bill. Recent media reports on the resignation of the secretary general and the heads of finance and communications of the Irish Red Cross, which would indicate there is something going on within that particular organisation, suggest the need for some urgency in respect of the introduction of that legislation.

Some weeks ago, the Tánaiste, having communicated with the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy O'Sullivan, on the primary online database, POD, system, suggested that forms in which people are asked to identify whether they are black Irish, white Irish or of a particular ethnicity had been withdrawn. However, I understand they have not been withdrawn. Perhaps the Minister would clarify the position.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

No date is available yet for publication of the Red Cross (amendment) Bill, and I do not have any knowledge of the specific issues raised by the Deputy in relation to the Irish Red Cross.

With regard to the POD, the error arose as a result of the inadvertent use of questions from a previous census rather than the most recent one. My understanding is that the new forms have been made available. However, I will check that out and come back to the Deputy on it.

Deputy Robert Troy

The Children First Bill 2014, which has been promised since this Government took up office, will put the Children First guidelines on a statutory footing, thereby making the non-reporting of child abuse an offence. Given the revelations of this week and prior to Christmas, that legislation should be progressed through both Houses of the Oireachtas as a matter of priority. It is important that all Members are given an opportunity to contribute to the debate on that legislation to ensure that, when enacted, it provides tough sanctions for non-reporting of child abuse, which enables people who carry out this heinous crime to continue to prey on vulnerable children. The legislation is not listed for debate in the summer session. The Government should review the legislative programme and ensure this legislation is enacted as a matter of priority.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

According to my information, that Bill is awaiting Committee Stage, which is a matter for the relevant committee.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

With regard to the value for money review of small schools, which the Minister belatedly laid before the Houses of the Oireachtas, I ask that an urgent and full debate on that review be held following the break next week. Despite the announcement by the Minister of a minor rowback, the approach of this Government continues to be one of cuts to small schools and the withdrawal of teachers from small schools. I note that the Minister has recently indicated that the only way schools can be assured of funding from the Department of Education and Skills is if they decide to amalgamate or, as she put it, voluntarily come together.

On the POD, perhaps the Minister would tell the House whether she has received an assurance from the Data Protection Commissioner that it is in line with legislation. Also, how can she stand over asking schools to collect information from parents when she or the Department had not up to now ensured that the system complied with data protection legislation?

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

Hear, hear.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

A debate on the value for money report is a matter for the Whips. I have no problem asking that such a debate be organised. I want to reiterate that while the report has been published, the Government has not made any decision to implement any element of it and does not intend to implement anything other than what has already been implemented in regard to small schools, which has been widely welcomed countrywide.

With regard to the database, we have had a secondary database for years, which gathers the same type of information and is very useful in terms of planning literacy and numeracy strategies and so on. We are in continuous conversation with the Data Protection Commissioner to ensure that anything that we do with regard to the primary database is in compliance with our obligations with regard to data protection. It should be recognised at post-primary level that this is a very useful tool which is designed to improve the educational opportunities for children.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Road safety has become increasingly important in recent times, and rightly so. In that regard, what is the status of the road traffic Bill, in which issues such as driving under the influence of drugs will be addressed for the benefit of motorists and pedestrians? When is that Bill likely to come before the House?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The Bill is likely to be published later this year.

Deputy Denis Naughten

The immigration, residence and protection Bill will put on a statutory basis valuable schemes to allow undocumented people in this country to get back into the immigration system. There are similar schemes in place in the United States for undocumented Irish people. The difficulty is that, to access those schemes, the undocumented Irish must return to Ireland to have a visa issued to them, which means they are then hit with a three-year or ten-year ban for having been illegally resident in the United States. A waiver system has been introduced in Mexico. The introduction of a similar waiver system here would address the problem for about one third of the undocumented Irish in the US. I understand a letter has issued from the Government to the US ambassador in regard to the establishment of such a waiver scheme here. When was that letter sent to the ambassador? Does it formally request the lifting of the visa ban and the introduction of a waiver scheme here to address this anomaly for the undocumented Irish in the US?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy should address that matter by way of parliamentary question.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I do not have the precise information the Deputy is seeking. The Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Ministers will be raising these issues during their forthcoming visits abroad. We have had a lengthy involvement in relation to immigration reform, and in this regard we welcomed the announcement by President Obama in November. This is an issue on which the Government is very much engaged.

Deputy Denis Naughten

Does the Minister know whether a letter has issued?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I do not have that information, but I can get it for the Deputy.

Deputy James Bannon

There are huge economic benefits to be gained from investment in information, education and promotion of the concept of healthy living. When will the health information Bill come before the House?

I take this opportunity to compliment the Minister, Deputy O'Sullivan, on the manner in which she has conducted the affairs of the House today.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Hear, hear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Do not tell Joan that.

Deputy James Bannon

I also compliment her on her work as Minister for Education and Skills. She has breathed new life into small rural schools. The policy of Fianna Fáil in government was to close every small school with fewer than 60 pupils.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

As we are short on time, I will give only a brief response to Deputy Bannon's question. No date has yet been set for the taking of the legislation referred to, which is important.

Deputy Peadar Tóibín

Chuir an Teachta Mattie McGrath an cheist a bhí agamsa ar an Aire, so tá freagra faighte agam.

Deputy Billy Kelleher

Will the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and Ministers use the opportunity of their forthcoming visits abroad, particularly to the United States, to convey the deep disquiet of this State with regard to the threats by tobacco companies to sue this State because of its attempts to reduce tobacco consumption in this country? Senators and Governors have been in contact with Deputies in this House to inform them of their concerns about Ireland's attempt to reduce tobacco consumption. It would be appropriate for members of the Government, wherever possible and practical, to convey to those on Capitol Hill and others in the United States that the Irish people take a very dim view of threats by tobacco companies to sue this State. Members of the Government should use every forum possible within diplomatic confines to convey that message.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

There is no particular legislation on this matter but the Government takes the issue of tobacco very seriously. The most recent announcement on plain packaging is very welcome. We will continue to take every action we can to reduce tobacco consumption in this country.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I wish to address the point made on the amendment to the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Act and the Personal Insolvency Act. I do not wish to labour the point, but I also wish to follow on from what the Minister very ably mentioned today, namely, her stated support for Deputy Willie Penrose's proposed one-year bankruptcy legislation. I urge her to complete the readmission of Deputy Penrose into the Labour Party and, maybe the logical extension of that, readmission into Cabinet-----

Deputy Emmet Stagg

He is in the Labour Party.

Deputy Kevin Humphreys

He never left the party.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Deputy Penrose never left the party.

Deputy Robert Dowds

He never left the party.

Deputy Dominic Hannigan

He never left the party, unlike some people in this House.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The Minister could arrange two readmissions, one to her party and the second to the Cabinet in order that this Bill could be fast-tracked.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I get the point. Does the Minister have anything to say?

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Did Deputy Mathews not look for his job?

Deputy Peter Mathews

This is extremely important.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We know that, but it is out of order as well.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We know that.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The reason this is very important is that 120,000 human souls are deeply traumatised, including children. There is no point in bringing in legislation about children when under our noses thousands are today under deep, traumatic stress because their parents are under even further stress. The number of human beings concerned would fill two to three Aviva stadiums.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is the question on Deputy Penrose's Bill? Could the Minister please respond?

Deputy Peter Mathews

Will the Government co-sign the Bill and get it through as quickly as it did the Misuse of Drugs (Amendment) Act yesterday? How about that?

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

I already said that Deputy Penrose's Bill makes a very important contribution. He has spoken very passionately about the exact points Deputy Mathews has made.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The Government should join him.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Mathews should listen.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

The Government as a whole will consider a number of measures.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The Government should stop considering the matter and take action.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

Could I correct the record to the effect that Deputy Willie Penrose did not leave the Labour Party?

Deputy Dara Calleary

It left him.

Deputy Peter Mathews

He left the parliamentary party.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

He has consistently been a member of the Labour Party and he is back in the parliamentary party.

Deputy Peter Mathews

He was not a member of the parliamentary party.

Deputy Jan O'Sullivan

As I am not the Taoiseach, I do not have the power to put him back into the Cabinet.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Perhaps the Minister should do that.