Seán Ó Fearghaíl
Question:124. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Minister for Defence when the White Paper on Defence will be published; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11641/15]
Other Questions
White Paper on Defence
The Minister referred several times to the impending White Paper on Defence. It is two years since the Green Paper on Defence was produced and 18 months since the deadline for receipt of submissions elapsed. The Minister is running out of time to publish this important White Paper. Is he in a position to indicate a timeframe for its publication?
I have been consistent on this issue since assuming the role of Minister for Defence. I indicated I would try to bring the White Paper to Government before the summer recess in July. That is the timetable to which we are operating. If the White Paper is approved by Government, as I hope it will be, we will probably be able to publish it in September or October. We are consulting on the White Paper and as part of the process of finalising it, I hope to arrange a full day of debate and statements in the Dáil. There will also be a full day of consultations with Defence Forces representative bodies and other stakeholders who will contribute to the finalisation of the process. I hope to be able to bring a White Paper to Government towards the end of July.
The timescale the Minister outlined is welcome if it can be realised. The Minister stated recently that he intends to consult on the White Paper nationally and internationally. With which categories of people or stakeholders will he consult? Will he also give an undertaking to use as a resource the large repository of skills and information that exists among retired officers? Those who retired recently have gathered a wide range of experience internationally, not least in the area of peacekeeping. Will he contact, liaise with and obtain feedback from this group?
We have a good group in the Department which has been liaising with many other Departments. The basis of a White Paper must be a comprehensive security assessment to identify that which we must defend against. We must then provide an infrastructure to ensure the State is adequately defended for the next ten years. That is essentially the approach taken in the White Paper. The Department has been moving from a Green Paper to a White Paper and has engaged in extensive consultation with other Departments, particularly on the security assessment.
I established a group outside the Department and Government to advise me on international best practice and put forward other views to ensure I am being challenged in terms of issues that should be considered. I have asked Mr. John Minihan, the former chairman of the Progressive Democrats Party, to chair the group. Mr. Minihan is a former officer who served abroad on many occasions, including in Lebanon, and is passionate about defence policy. The group also includes Mr. Karl Croke, a former Defence Forces officer who has been very successful in the private sector and has particular expertise in human resource management.
Marie Cross is also on the aforementioned group advising me. She has a lot of experience, has worked with the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade and is now deeply involved in the Institute of International and European Affairs, IIEA. In addition, Frank Lynch, who is the former flag officer of the Naval Service, is on that group. It is a group of four highly experienced people, three of whom are ex-Defence Forces personnel and all of whom are ambitious and interested in defence policy and the Defence Forces in Ireland. They are contributing to the development of the policy.
We will come back to the Minister.
Finally, on the Department's consultation day, it will invite experts, be they from countries in Europe or elsewhere, where there is relevance to the Irish White Paper in respect of the work they have been doing. This will take place in approximately one month's time.
Budgetary constraints are the major impediment at present and I note defence spending has fallen by approximately 20% since 2008, bringing Ireland to the point where it has the second lowest expenditure on defence in Europe, in terms of percentage of GDP spent, behind Luxembourg. As part of this White Paper process, does the Minister envisage that this fundamental situation will change?
It is hard to give a "Yes" or "No" answer to that question until the response to the security threat assessment has been finalised and fully costed. However, I envisage that yes, defence spending in Ireland over the next ten years will need to increase. New challenges must be faced, Ireland has a huge marine resource that must be protected, airspace that must be managed and it has natural resources that must also be part of that security threat assessment. Moreover, Members have already discussed cybersecurity and so on. In addition, Ireland has an increasing responsibility abroad in terms of peacekeeping, conflict management, post-conflict stabilisation and so on. I would like to see an increasing budget for defence to be able to do all those things. However, that must be negotiated and will not happen in a single year. My view on the White Paper is that over the next decade, the State will work towards putting in place a modern, well-resourced defence infrastructure which I believe will require increases in budget over time.
Defence Forces Recruitment
Denis Naughten
Question:125. Deputy Denis Naughten asked the Minister for Defence his plans to address the staffing deficit within the Army bomb disposal units; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11622/15]
The explosive ordnance demolition unit or the bomb disposal squad is an integral part of the Defence Forces and of the security of the State. In the past three years, it has been called out 595 times, 75 of which have been in cases of unstable chemicals in schools. There has been a reduction in the staffing complement of that unit and I wish to ascertain what steps will be taken in the immediate future to ensure there are adequate staff numbers to maintain the four units across the country.
The Deputy has raised this issue with me previously and I will give him an update. On the actual numbers, I am glad to state there was a significant reduction in the number of call-outs last year. There were 215 call-outs in 2013 and this number fell to 141 this year. The number of call-outs for viable improvised explosive devices also fell last year. There was a reduction from 96 in 2012 to 81 in 2013 and the number fell to 52 last year. While this is a positive trend, it remains necessary to have the capacity to deal with a significant increase, should that happen for whatever reason.
Explosive ordnance disposal is the military term used to refer to what is commonly called bomb disposal. Explosive ordnance disposal is a task assigned to the Defence Forces by the Government and is provided in aid to the civil power. Within the Defence Forces, the explosive ordnance disposal function is assigned to the Ordnance Corps. As I stated in response to Question No. 9 of Wednesday, 14 January 2015, the issue of the terms and conditions for entry into the Ordnance Corps has been raised by the Representative Association of Commissioned Officers, RACO, at conciliation council. In accordance with normal procedures, the association’s claim is being dealt with under the conciliation and arbitration scheme for members of the Permanent Defence Force.
As discussions under the scheme are confidential to the parties involved, it would not be appropriate for me to comment further on the details today. However, it is my intention that recruitment will commence as soon as the terms and conditions have been agreed.
In other words there is a dispute, I suspect, over the level of incentive to get people into this specialist training area. It is dangerous work, quite frankly, and requires about two years of training. We are going through the usual procedures to agree a way forward and a compromise that everyone will accept and agree upon. After that, we will be pressing ahead with an active recruitment campaign because we do need to increase the numbers in that unit.
I accept what the Minister has said. However, the difficulty is that the last recruits came out of the training process in September 2010, which is four and a half years ago. It takes 18 months of training before unsupervised personnel can be involved in bomb disposal work. Is the Minister aware that by the end of April we will have less than 50% of the full complement of those four units? In light of that, what immediate action can be taken to address this situation? Is there now a real risk that one of these units will have to be disbanded, at least temporarily, in order to maintain the effective operation of the other units?
No, I do not think that is likely. We are anxious to finalise the conciliation process so that we can get on with the new recruitment drive. The Deputy is right in that the numbers have fallen, but there is still a strong capability to do the required job. Nobody is suggesting that the level of service and response is compromised, but we do need a new recruitment drive. We need to get some new people in training for these units. That will be the focus once we can get the conciliation finalised.
I have some brief questions. On foot of the Minister's last comments, can he reassure the House that the unit based in Athlone is secure into the future? What does he envisage is the timeline for agreement to be reached between the Government, the Defence Forces and RACO? When are we likely to see a recruitment campaign commencing?
I have given numerous assurances concerning the number of personnel and units in Athlone. I have had no briefing or suggestion from anybody that there will be a disbanding of the unit in Athlone. From that point of view, therefore, I can give the Deputy an assurance - unless I get some briefing to the contrary in the next couple of days. However, I certainly have nothing to suggest that that would be the case.
The focus has been on trying to get through a conciliation process which is a fairly normal process within Defence Forces' structures. We had to go through that process with the 21-year soldier issue, which resulted in a reasonably good outcome for everybody, including a fair compromise. We need to get through this process also. I think RACO would be aware that there is a need to move on with this issue now. We are anxious to move on in order to get recruitment under way again. The sooner we can resolve the issues the better.
Air Corps
Bernard Durkan
Question:126. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Defence if he remains satisfied that the Defence Forces are adequately equipped to detect incursions into Irish air space by potentially hostile intruders, manned or unmanned; if counter offensive measures need to be updated; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11647/15]
This question concerns the need for the Air Corps to be in a position to monitor and, if necessary, intercept aircraft intruding into Irish air space, as well as being in a position to identify the purpose of the mission.
I answered a similar question earlier. Under the current strategy which dates back to the 2000 White Paper on Defence, the role of the Air Corps is limited to surveillance and some limited defence capacity.
If there is a fast-moving military plane coming into Irish airspace, our Air Corps is not going to have significant defence capacity to deal with that. When the White Paper was put in place back in 2000, the assessed risk of that happening was deemed to be very low and therefore we could not justify the expenditure on putting together significant air defence capacity. We now have to reassess that in the context of the new White Paper.
First and foremost, we need to improve our capacity to monitor what is happening in our airspace and in international airspace for which the Irish Aviation Authority has responsibility. That is why I mentioned that we are looking in some detail at the cost and equipment that would be required to improve long range radar capacity along the west coast in particular. That is the first step. We will have an opportunity in the context of the broader White Paper to discuss what we should or should not be doing in terms of the Air Corps and its future role. It is important to be realistic. The cost of putting together a fleet of fighter jets is probably similar to all the defence spending in Ireland put together. We are unlikely to be pursuing that course of action, although we have to have an open mind. Instead, we need to look at improved surveillance so that we understand and have a detailed knowledge of what is happening in our airspace.
We do have some capacity at the moment. It should not be suggested that we have no capacity. We have radar capacity along the west coast that covers the vast majority of our air space, as it happens. If the Deputy is talking about further out to sea, 30 km to 50 km into the Atlantic and into international air space, he is talking about long-range equipment, which has a cost implication.
I thank the Minister. A somewhat unstable situation exists globally at present, in that quite a number of trouble spots exist across the globe. Would the Minister agree that, as a result, neutral countries in particular may be vulnerable? To what extent is that going to be taken into account in determining the degree to which defence methods and mechanisms can be upgraded in line with international standards, given the urgency?
First, I would not like to give the impression that Irish defence capacity is not in line with international standards in the areas where we operate, because it is. Training and fitness levels in the Irish Defence Forces benchmark really well with international standards. Looking at the capacity for Ireland in peacekeeping operations, for example, we are as good as if not better than any other country in terms of our experience and what we bring to many of those missions, whether in the United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon, UNIFIL, the United Nations Disengagement Observer Force, UNDOF, Mali, Sierra Leone, or wherever we are. We are very good at what we do.
The issue is whether to change perspective from the 2000 White Paper on Defence, which limits our capacity in certain areas, to respond to what has happened since 2000 regarding international security concerns and issues. Cybersecurity is one obvious area that has been raised today. Migration is another area, and we have to ensure that we have a comprehensive security risk assessment, which will then be the basis for deciding how we respond in the White Paper.
Would the Minister agree that in the course of that risk assessment, it might be useful to include the use in some quarters of unmanned aircraft which continue to be employed in many locations throughout the globe? In the context of discussion with his EU colleagues, has any consideration been given to the vulnerability of neutral states within the European Union whereby there might be a security deficit compared to best practice internationally?
The Deputy will be glad to hear we already use drones, or unmanned aircraft. The Army uses them in terms of surveillance, target accuracy and so on.
The Naval Service is also testing drones and considering their use to push back the horizon and improve surveillance capacity. We have some technology companies that are developing and designing new drone technology. Ireland will be one of the world's leading countries in designing and developing the next drone technology which will actually attract more civil than military use. It is a space in which we are very active. Enterprise Ireland and Science Foundation Ireland have been examining it also.
What was the Deputy's second question?
It was on the sensitivity of neutral nations.
A country that is neutral or militarily non-aligned has to have the capacity to stand on its own two feet. That is a subject on which we need an honest debate in Ireland.
Defence Forces Operations
Mick Wallace
Question:127. Deputy Mick Wallace asked the Minister for Defence the protocol that exists when the Defence Forces are called upon to carry out aid-to-civil power duties, in terms of chain of command, with particular reference to whether the Defence Forces or An Garda Síochána are responsible for decision making in relation to the duty. [11618/15]
We agree that we need an honest debate on it. Recently in reply to a question the Minister stated, "When deployed in an ATCP role, Defence Forces personnel remain under the operational command of a Defence Forces officer at all times." He has said this again today. In the response he also stated, "For security and operational reasons, it is not considered appropriate to make any further comment in relation to how such operations are conducted." Does this mean that he believes there are security risks associated with defending US military aircraft at Shannon Airport? If so, are members of the security forces made aware of the risks involved in defending these military aircraft?
I am not quite sure what risks the Deputy is talking about. Certainly, when An Garda Síochána seeks assistance from the Defence Forces on security arrangements at Shannon Airport, it gets it. The assistance comes in the form of Permanent Defence Force personnel under the control of the senior officer performing the tasks they are being asked to perform by An Garda Síochána. As I stated, it is the role of the Defence Forces personnel to perform the tasks they are being asked to perform. I am not quite sure what the Deputy is getting at. I am not trying to be evasive, but I am just trying to understand what he is getting at. This is a security operation to provide security for aeroplanes landing, refuelling and taking off at Shannon Airport. When An Garda Síochána needs the assistance of the Defence Forces, it gets it. It is no more complicated than that.
I was surprised when the Minister said that, for security and operational reasons, he did not consider it appropriate to make any further comment on how such operations were conducted. It goes without saying there is considerable confusion about roles and responsibilities. Does the person in charge from the Defence Forces have the authority to decide to inspect an aircraft? Alternatively, would the Minister say Garda personnel have greater authority on the platform at Shannon Airport? Can they actually decide to inspect an aircraft if they believe there is a good reason to do so?
I am not going to answer the question for An Garda Síochána which is the lead organisation in terms of security within the State. When it needs assistance in performing its role, it asks for it and gets it from the Defence Forces. However, the task the Defence Forces are asked to perform by An Garda Síochána is managed operationally by the senior officer of the Defence Forces on site. That is my understanding of how it works. The duty of making the actual request and overall responsibility lie with An Garda Síochána.
Can the Defence Forces take charge of the security of an aeroplane without Garda personnel being present? We understand from the defence in a recent court case in Ennis, taken by the State, that An Garda Síochána was not allowed to exercise discretion at Shannon Airport and that if, for any reason, it suspected an aeroplane needed to be inspected, it was not allowed to do so.
The gardaí were not allowed to use their own discretion as they would on the street. They were compelled to contact the Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade. This came as a surprise to us.
Deputy Ó Fearghaíl and Deputy Durkan raised the issue of the Russian plane and what we should be worried about coming through our airspace. Were these people remotely interested in the EC130 Hercules which was armed and landed in Shannon? Are they remotely worried about the incredible security risk to the Irish people of seriously heavy armoury coming through Shannon?
With regard to the role of terrorists, since the end of the Second World War the US military machine has created more terrorism on the planet than the rest of the planet put together. We are allowing these people to use Shannon and we do not seem to have a problem with it yet we are worried about a Russian aircraft flying down by the west coast. Give us a break. What would the Russians be doing invading us?
The Minister to conclude.
Hear, hear.
I am not sure the US will invade us either, with all due respect.
I am not worried at all.
They are here already.
In fairness to the Minister, I do not expect him to clarify whether the Russians are coming either. The two boys were worried though.
We need to try to have a calm response to these things. I will not answer on behalf of An Garda Síochána, which is under the political responsibility of a different Minister. Our role, in the Defence Forces, is to respond to specific tasks when asked for assistance by An Garda Síochána. We then manage and operationally take control of these tasks through a senior officer in the performing of those tasks. It is no more complicated than that.
There are broader issues and I know Deputy Wallace has a strong difference of opinion with me and with the Department on these issues. However, they are separate issues. My responsibility, as Minister for Defence, is to account for the actions of the Permanent Defence Force when it is operationally asked to perform certain tasks by An Garda Síochána, which it does very professionally.
Can the Defence Forces monitor the plane without An Garda Síochána being there?
My understanding is that An Garda Síochána asks for assistance with a particular task and it is this task which the Defence Forces personnel operate. It does not, on its own initiative, then decide to do a whole series of other things like inspect planes.
Defence Forces Deployment
Seán Ó Fearghaíl
Question:128. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Minister for Defence if Ireland has received, or expects to receive, any request for the Defence Forces to participate in any mission to Libya; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11642/15]
With regard to the political situation in Libya, we are currently aware that there are peace talks taking place in Morocco with a view to bringing about the creation of a government and national unity. In this context, there has been much speculation that the UN might ask the EU under the common security and defence policy to send in a force to support the peace initiative. Has Ireland received any request or does the Minister anticipate a request being received in this regard?
The straight answer is that Ireland has not received any request. The honest answer is that I do not know if we will receive a request in the future. That would be two or three steps away from where we are now. We need to achieve political stability in Libya first and the European Union is very engaged through a special representative there in trying to achieve this. If agreement can be reached on a government of national unity in Libya, such a government may need assistance in terms of bedding down and stabilising the governing structure. The UN will be engaged in this process, as will the EU. It is only when this happens that we will be asked to look seriously, as a member state of the EU, at how we can support this. There have been suggestions of sending an EU mission there. There have also been suggestions that the Nordic battle group could be asked to be part of this and so on. These are very much suggestions which are made in the absence of two or three decisions which need to happen first.
I do not anticipate a request to send troops there in the immediate future. However, if we are requested to do so, and if other European countries are so requested, we will consider the request on its merits. We will go through the usual consideration process. As Deputy Ó Fearghaíl knows, before Irish troops can go anywhere, we will have to go through the triple-lock mechanism which will involve an opportunity for discussion and debate in this House.
I do not want to detain the Minister unduly on this matter but, given the IS threat in Libya and the dangerous nature of the Golan Heights mission, has he any overview of or concern about the situation? Is he in a position, even at this early stage, to indicate whether he would recommend participation by the Defence Forces were such a request to come to the Government?
It is far too early to say that. We would have to go through a detailed threat and risk assessment before I would recommend sending troops anywhere to the Government. We are not even close to being at that stage. If the request were to come, we would take it seriously. Libya’s situation is complex.
It is a tragic story. We would like to do anything we can to assist in stabilising the unstable environment in Libya, but sending troops is a major decision and we will not take it before conducting a thorough risk assessment and reverting to the Government and the House. We are thinking ahead a little too far, though. No request has come through.
Okay.
Proposed Legislation
Seán Ó Fearghaíl
Question:129. Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl asked the Minister for Defence when he will publish the Red Cross (amendment) Bill; his views regarding recent events at the Irish Red Cross; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [11643/15]
This goes to a matter that I have raised repeatedly on the Order of Business, that being, the publication of the Red Cross (amendment) Bill. Recent media reports suggest that all may not be well within the Red Cross, which emphasises the need for legislation on addressing governance issues to be introduced as a matter of urgency. I am particularly conscious of the fact that the secretary general and directors of finance and communications of the Red Cross have resigned recently. What is the Minister’s feeling on these resignations and will he reassure the public as regards the governance systems that are in place in the Red Cross, which spends approximately €900,000 of taxpayers' money at home and more abroad?
The figure is a little less than that, but it is substantial. In accordance with a programme for Government commitment, my Department is continuing to progress a legal review of the basis, structures and governance of the Irish Red Cross. It is proposed that the existing primary legislation, which dates back to 1938, is to be repealed in new primary legislation that will redefine the relationship between the Government and the Irish Red Cross Society. This will further underpin the independence of the society. Draft heads of the Red Cross Bill are being finalised.
In recent years, the society has reformed its corporate governance structures and has in place a governance framework that meets the standards set by the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies and the International Committee of the Red Cross. The reforms introduced were facilitated by the legislative amendments made by this Government in 2012, which represented the most wide-ranging and fundamental set of changes to have occurred since the establishment of the society in 1939.
While the society is an independent charitable body corporate with full power to manage and administer its own affairs, it has without question made substantial improvements to its governance framework in recent years. I am nevertheless also aware that, despite this progress, there is some concern that other aspects of governance have not moved as quickly and that this is an issue of ongoing debate within the society. As the Deputy has pointed out, three senior managers at the society have recently resigned from their positions. With the outgoing chairman's term of office coming to an end shortly, this is a time of change at the society in terms of its board, officers and management. It is important that the incoming administration find the right balance between the pace of reform and the obligation to manage the society in a way that meets the expectations of all of its stakeholders, including the Government, which commits approximately €860,000-----
I am sorry, but we only have time for one supplementary question.
I will be brief. While I accept the Minister's answer, all is clearly not well. When three senior line managers in the organisation resign simultaneously, it indicates that there is a problem. That problem needs to be addressed urgently. The legislation to which the Minister referred needs to be introduced. It is not as though the Department of Defence is overrun in terms of the legislation it has in the pipeline. Indeed, no publication timelines have been indicated for any of its legislation. Will the Minister prioritise this matter, please?
Clearly, all is not well. That needs to be corrected. We are prioritising the legislation. The Deputy will see proof of that shortly when we finalise the heads of the legislation and I bring them to the Government.