Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Mar 2015

Vol. 872 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Despite the incredible spin on the part of the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, on Monday last and by the Government in the context of various announcements regarding the rural development programme, the reality is that Leader funding for rural communities throughout the country has been slashed in an incredible manner by the Government in its programme for the period 2014 to 2020. The funding in question has been cut by 43%, which means that towns and villages in rural areas will lose services relating to child care and rural transport and supports for start-up businesses. The cuts to which I refer are absolutely brutal in terms of the sheer scale involved. Some €376 million was allocated under the programme for the period 2007 to 2013 but under the new programme, which covers the period 2014 to 2020, the allocation is only €220 million.

As far as I can see, funding for all counties - with the exception of two - is going to be savagely cut. Incredibly, County Cork is going to lose up to 71% of its funding. I do not know what the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney was doing when that decision was made. Perhaps he was fast asleep at the wheel.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

He was in a-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

County Kilkenny is going to lose up to 50% of its funding, as will counties Donegal, Meath, Kerry and Tipperary. The Minister, Deputy Kelly, proudly proclaimed on "Morning Ireland" that he has brought €10 million to County Tipperary. Some €25 million was allocated in respect of that county under the previous programme. To add insult to injury, the independence and autonomy of Leader and rural development companies has been fatally undermined by the Government. For the first time ever - I am not saying this it is being said by the companies to which I refer - the Government has decided that before the open competition for funding happens, it is going to divvy up the overall pot and allocate a budget per county. Not only is the funding going to be dramatically and substantially reduced, the Government has decided to take away-----

A Deputy

Stroke.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----the essential ethos of the programme, which was previously about independent companies empowering local communities, as part of a politicisation of it. That process of politicisation was begun by the former Minister, Phil Hogan, who went off to the European Commission, and continued by the current Minister, Deputy Kelly.

The way in which the Government has dealt with this matter is a scandal in itself. It has undermined the companies to which I refer and subsumed them into local authority structures. It has also undermined what was best international practice in so doing. The European Union lauded the model that was originally put in place in respect of Leader and rural development companies. What is being done by the Government in this instance represents a brutal assault on rural Ireland. Will the Taoiseach reverse the cuts and restore, for the period 2014 to 2020, the funding that is necessary in order to, at a minimum, maintain the level and quality of services that have been provided in rural areas by the companies to which I refer? Will he see to it that the Government reverts to the tried and tested model which previously worked effectively and which was lauded by the European Union as honouring the intention behind the programme the latter originally designed?

The Taoiseach

The rural development programme was dealt with as part of the process of the Irish Presidency of the European Union in the early part of 2013. It was successfully negotiated and attracted the approval of the European Parliament. There is a fund of €4 billion available for rural Ireland.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach speak up? We cannot hear him on this side of the House.

The Taoiseach

The allocation for the rural development programme is €250 million and each county has now been notified of the amount it will receive for the period ahead.

Deputy Martin will be aware that there has been a change in the nature of the relationship between local authorities, on which public representatives serve, and different organisations and agencies, including the Leader groups. Those groups have done fabulous work in many areas throughout the country.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

And now they are being badly treated by the Government.

The Taoiseach

Their relationship with the local authorities has changed-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They are being taken over.

The Taoiseach

-----because those authorities and the public representatives who serve on them now have access to all of the detail relating to how the money involved is used for the benefit of communities. This is not to say that the functions and responsibilities of the Leader groups and those who work on them have changed. The latter have a very important part to play in respect of the moneys allocated.

The Deputy referred to an assault on rural Ireland. He must remember that both rural and urban areas are still recovering from the devastation that was wreaked upon them a number of years ago.

Deputy Robert Troy

So the Government slashed their funding.

The Taoiseach

The Government is acutely aware of what has been the impact on rural Ireland and, as a result, IDA Ireland has changed its strategy in terms of the development of technology parks, the upgrading of existing facilities and the purchase and construction of new ones in areas outside the main urban centres. It is welcome to see the significant investment being made by Apple in Athenry and the development of facilities in towns and other locations outside those centres. These developments are heartening, particularly as they are giving rise to the creation of further jobs throughout the regions.

The Government has published its programme for the provision of broadband services throughout the country, particularly in areas where capacity is seriously lacking and where this should not be the case. Enterprise Ireland has been allocated additional funding in order that it might facilitate small and medium enterprises throughout the country to assist in developing a regional strategy and promoting employment creation. That is why the Government established the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland and the Ireland strategic investment fund. These are two major developments. The Ireland strategic investment fund contains €7 billion and the first public flotation on the Irish Stock Exchange relating to it - involving the Malin initial public offering, IPO - took place this morning. This development involves ten small companies which deal with various areas throughout the regions. As Deputy Martin is aware, the Strategic Banking Corporation of Ireland has an investment capacity of €800 million in the context of small and medium enterprises and can provide lower-interest loans over longer terms. All of these are part of the programme for the development of provincial and rural Ireland.

As already stated, the fund relating to the rural development programme stands at €250 million. That amount is not as large as previously. The Leader groups, in terms of their responsibilities, are still very important.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They are making people redundant.

The Taoiseach

The groups will play a fundamental role in the development of quality enterprises and systems throughout the country. I look forward to engaging with them.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach has lost all credibility.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I will tell the Taoiseach what Leader companies in a particular area are saying. I am not going to mention the area in question because the companies that operate there might be punished by the Government. People are afraid of the Government's tendencies in this regard and of how it gets to them in the end.

An Ceann Comhairle

I would appreciate it if the Deputy would ask a supplementary question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The allocation of funding to the Leader companies in the area to which I refer is the lowest I can remember since the introduction of the scheme in 1996.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a smash and grab exercise.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach did not address the core issue I put to him. Cuts in allocations are happening throughout the country.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Smash and grab.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is an insult to people when the Taoiseach says that they did fabulous work, particularly when he then seeks to screw them. He is undermining their authority, autonomy and independence.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

And good work.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach should please stop insulting people by uttering meaningless platitudes.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy ask a supplementary question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach stated that - miraculously - the position has now changed. It did not just now change. The former Minister, Phil Hogan, saw this as a political issue and he wanted to gain control of the funds in order that he might divvy them up. There are two issues which arise.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

There were not too many funds to divvy up when Fianna Fáil left office.

Deputy Finian McGrath

Hulk Hogan wrecked the place.

Deputy Micheál Martin

In the first instance, overall Pillar 2 funding was reduced and, in the second, the Government did not live up to its promise on 50-50 funding. In the context of matching funding in respect of Leader programmes, only 37% is being provided by the Government. The reduction in funding in all of the counties to which I refer has been quite severe.

Will the Taoiseach please address the realities that will be experienced in towns and villages throughout Ireland as a result of these quite dramatic funding cuts?

This means some services will have to close and some will not be sustainable in future. Will the Taoiseach restore the level of funding provided between 2007 and 2013 for the period from 2013 to 2020?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

He is looking for money every day.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will he at least supplement, from a national perspective, the draconian cuts he has presided over and return autonomy to the local rural development companies?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin has drifted back to where he left off.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

The Taoiseach should read the ESRI report.

The Taoiseach

It is tax and spend.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

They ran the country broke.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach is well able to look after himself.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

It is more tax and spend from Deputy Martin. He is back to where he left off. He has not stood up from that seat once in the last two years to make a constructive suggest for the development of the country, other than to restore or provide money. Does he not understand that when he walked out of this Chamber four years ago, we had 12 weeks of reserves left to pay pensioners, gardaí, teachers and nurses?

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not true.

Deputy Robert Troy

It is not the first time he misled the House.

The Taoiseach

That is the mess he left behind.

Deputy James Reilly

It is true.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Government restore funding for Leader groups?

The Taoiseach

Now he comes back here in 2015 to look for all those things to be restored.

Deputy Willie O'Dea

That is a "No".

Deputy Micheál Martin

Answer the question I asked.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, please.

The Taoiseach

Allow me to answer the question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He is wandering all over to avoid the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, please adhere to the Chair's directions.

Deputy James Reilly

Deputy Martin wandered all over the place asking the question.

An Ceann Comhairle

We are over time.

The Taoiseach

Under the scheme as it operated until this year, administration costs amounted to 33%.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Remember that.

The Taoiseach

Some 33% of the funding for the Leader groups went into administration.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He clearly does not think they are fabulous anymore.

The Taoiseach

That is not pumping money into rural Ireland for schemes that the Deputy wants. He knows that.

Deputy Colm Keaveney

They are cheaper than Irish Water.

The Taoiseach

The OECD recommended a more integrated approach to dealing with these kinds of funds. That is why the relationship between Leader and the local authorities, which are served by elected people from all over the country, will make an impact.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is a smash and grab job.

The Taoiseach

There is a responsibility on the part of Leader groups to work with local authorities and other agencies to make the best impact with the €250 million allocated to them. I expect they will do a very good job.

An Ceann Comhairle

For the information of the House, we were four and a half minutes over time on that question. This happens every day and I am getting fed up with it.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Yesterday the Taoiseach made it clear that he fully supports the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, and his intention to take water charges from people's wages, pensions and social welfare payments.

Deputy Emmet Stagg

Including Deputy Adams's.

Deputy Gerry Adams

He disclosed to the House that the Minister has yet to put a proposal to the Cabinet but he refused to outline the legal basis for the process which he wholeheartedly supports. That would seem strange to most people but in Enda-land the absurd presents itself as a form of government. In Enda-land, we heard this morning that water charge bills will be issued by Irish Water to citizens who are not its customers. In Enda-land, bills will also be issued to households which have undrinkable water, including those who have to boil their water. In Enda-land, 150,000 properties with a private well and a sceptic tank will be billed by Irish Water. All of these citizens will be billed for a service they do not receive and the Taoiseach fully supports a process of deducting these bills from their wages, pensions or social welfare payments. Surely the Taoiseach will agree that is worthy of Flann O'Brien at his best. It would be laughable except that it is causing huge confusion and further anger.

Why should this concern the Taoiseach or the hecklers on his back benches? It is not their money because the taxpayers will be footing the bill for the bills they are being sent for a service they will not receive. In Enda-land, €85 million of taxpayers' money was paid to private consultants for their advice. How on earth are citizens to have any faith in the Government's water charges policy or, indeed, in the Government itself when those entrusted with running water services cannot even get the basics right?

The Taoiseach

In Gerry-land, the record shows that Deputy Adams agreed that he should pay for water until he heard the sound of marching feet and thought this was populism which required him to take a different stance.

Deputy Ray Butler

It was because Deputy Paul Murphy came along.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Government changed its stance 13 times because of marching feet.

The Taoiseach

I am sure he read the reports of water being contaminated with leachate because of diesel laundering in various parts of the country. I am sure that is of interest to him. Deputy Adams is the president of his party. It is about time people faced up to the reality that water has to be paid for.

Deputy Aengus Ó Snodaigh

It already is.

The Taoiseach

Every Deputy should observe what happens in a water treatment plant to understand the cost of producing quality water for consumers, businesses and people alike. It seems to be fine for some people to say we are all paying for this. They are happy to continue with a situation in which people have had to boil water for years, contend with inferior and inadequate sewerage facilities in their towns and villages or are condemned to an inadequate infrastructure. It is time that Deputy Adams faces the reality. This Government has listened carefully to the great number of people who expressed their concerns and anxieties. The charge for water is €1.15 per week or €3 if there are two or more adults in the house. By any scale, these are modest contributions to make for quality water.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is not true. It is not modest by any scale. That is where he is wrong.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams's party seems to want a system where it can increase income tax and introduce a raft of new charges, including commercial rates, land tax and corporation tax, to pay for some utopian land in which seems to live. It is not Enda-land or Gerry-land; it is fantasy land.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

In Enda-land, he wants to screw people on small money.

The Taoiseach

The people of this country have faced difficult choices in the last number of years. We are now emerging from a recession. I note the reports which indicate that Ireland is a leading economy in a European sense. Our challenge is to manage this carefully for the generation coming behind us. Nobody believes that people should not make a contribution for water. When someone turns on a tap, whether in Donegal, Louth, Clontarf, Kerry or Waterford, somebody has to pay for what comes out. I am not happy with a situation in which thousands of people are drinking water supplied through lead pipes-----

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Then get the lead out.

The Taoiseach

-----thousands of people have an inferior water system or thousands of people have to say, with their sense of pride, that there are no sewerage facilities in their towns or villages. We have to deal with that reality and I support the Minister, Deputy Kelly, in his efforts to provide a proper system of clean, high quality water for consumers, businesses and people all over the country. When he brings his recommendations to the Cabinet, we will consider them and deal with them in the interest of our country.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Government has spent €540 million on meters but only €50 million on the leaking pipes he decries so much. He refused to answer my question, once again. Is it not ironic that a Labour Party Minister, the Minister for making it up as he goes along, is responsible for this mess? In Opposition the Labour Party firmly ruled out the introduction of water charges but it has since emerged that it was planning to introduce water charges since 2010. An internal Labour Party memo prepared for its then leader, Deputy Gilmore, and the then deputy leader, the Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, clearly outlined plans for the introduction of water charges and the installation of water meters. Now we know where the Labour Party stood on this issue all along, despite what it told the electorate.

Yesterday I asked the Taoiseach whether he had spoken to his old pal, Phil Hogan, about his unminuted and unrecorded meetings with the chair of Bord Gáis on the establishment of Irish Water. The Taoiseach refused to answer my question or to authorise an Oireachtas inquiry into this serious matter. Given the latest revelations about this billing debacle, is it not time he acknowledged that his party and the Labour Party have no mandate and that there is no sense in what they are doing in respect of water charges? I ask him once again to scrap these charges or, failing that, to get an exit visa from Enda-land and call a general election on this issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is normal practice to address Deputies as Deputy, Ministers as Minister and the Taoiseach as Taoiseach and I do not want any practice to creep in here of calling this country anybody's land.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for his direction.

Yes, I spoke to Commissioner Hogan about his announcement of a €200 million allocation for rural Ireland and trainee schemes for young people to allow them to participate more fully in building up the country.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Speak up, scairt amach.

The Taoiseach

I am sure the Deputy has it within him to welcome that announcement also.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Did the Taoiseach not ask him about the other issues?

Deputy Brian Stanley

Where are the minutes of the meeting?

The Taoiseach

The answer to Deputy Gerry Adam's question is that I do not intend to call a general election until it is appropriate to do so. The Government was given a mandate by the people to fix the public finances and get the country back working. I hope that when the Deputy is attending meetings around the country and asked how he proposes to pay for all these facilities, he will respond by saying he intends to increase income taxes and commercial rates and to talk to Deputy Paul Murphy about financial transaction taxes, corporation taxes, wealth taxes and everything else, apart from providing the services to which the people are entitled. That is what we are going to do; we are going to fulfil the mandate given to us by the people who in due course will have the answer as to whether we have sorted out the public finances and got people back to work.

Deputy Paul Murphy

Pride goes before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall and that is the situation facing the Government. It is in that moment between pride and a fall. Faced with a huge protest on Saturday and the prospect of a massive boycott, all talk of listening has been forgotten and replaced by a high-handed, arrogant and bullying approach. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, is swaggering around the place like Nelson in "The Simpsons", threatening to rob people's lunch money. Housing agencies are sending threatening letters to their tenants and we have yet another deadline - a fifth - from Irish Water, taking all meaning from the word "deadline", which is designed to frighten people. Despite what Irish Water states, it is not happy with the level of registration. We face an incredible situation, weeks before the bills are issued, where the Government is threatening that Irish Water will be able to deduct charges from people's wages, benefits or pensions. It is not doing this by putting a Bill before the House or raising the matter for debate here. It is not even going on the airwaves to put forward and debate the issue. It is doing it through leaks in the media that are designed to strike fear into people across the country. Is this the new way of doing politics? Is this the democratic revolution sitting on an overburdened shelf of forgotten promises?

People deserve clarity, not more waffle. I, therefore, ask the Taoiseach to answer these questions clearly. When will we see the long promised Bill? Will the Taoiseach confirm that the water charges are not a Revenue tax and that, therefore, the powers of Revenue to deduct charges do not apply? Will he confirm that any move to give Irish Water these powers would mean Irish Water falling foul of the EUROSTAT market corporation test? If there is any move to have a fast-tracked court procedure which would require one court case rather than a multiple of cases to obtain an attachment of earnings order, will it not similarly have to apply to other utility companies? How on earth will the Government deal with the hundreds of thousands who will refuse to pay? How many hundreds of new judges will the State appoint? How many scores of new courthouses will the State build or will the entire system simply be blocked up?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is out of time.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I will finish on this point. Was Elizabeth Arnett of Irish Water not correct when she said this morning that there would be no penalties in the case of the first four bills? People can, therefore, refuse to pay, without penalty until after the next general election. They can join the group that will bin their bills outside the Dáil on 18 April. This campaign will sink water charges, Irish Water and the Government.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government will bring his proposals to the Cabinet in the next few weeks. The Cabinet will consider and make decisions on them. The Bill will then be published and put through the Dáil and the Seanad. It will deal with the questions the Deputy has raised.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Government has made a hames of it.

The Taoiseach

It is not good for Deputy Paul Murphy or anybody else here to express a view that would put people in a position where they would build up a debt for the future. The Government has listened carefully to what the people have said and introduced a level of charge for water that it believes is fair and affordable. It is not good to tell people to put this off and build up a debt as a consequence. There is a need for fairness in this issue, of which the Deputy does not seem to be aware. The majority of people who have signed up as customers of Irish Water and will continue to sign up want to know that their neighbours, including the Deputy, will make their contribution to the cost of production of quality Irish water in the coming years. The Deputy's questions about courts and other matters will be dealt with in the Bill that will be produced by the Government following its decision on the Minister's propositions. There is a need for compliance and people to understand there will be equality in regard to compliance and that everybody who can pay should and will pay.

The Bill will be before the House within weeks and people will have an opportunity to discuss and debate it. We have gone beyond ignoring the issue. The country must deal with it and I am heartened by the continuing strong support through registration and people signing up to receive what they know is a precious commodity which we must be able to supply to every citizen, not just those in particular locations. The Bill will be introduced in a few weeks time.

Deputy Paul Murphy

The Taoiseach says the promised Bill will be introduced in the next few weeks. On 3 February he told us it would be published "in the next couple of weeks". The next time we raise the issue will we be told that it will be introduced in the next couple of months and then the next few months? This is a Bill that never appears because the Government wants to use it to scare people, but the content will not be as scary. If it includes a procedure to fast-track proceedings for non-payers of water charges through the courts, does the Taoiseach agree that there are many others in the State who should be ahead of non-payers in the queue to access the courts such as serious criminals and those who were responsible for the economic crisis, for which people are paying through water charges?

On the statement that the majority are signing up to pay water charges, I notice that the Taoiseach did not give figures. The figures coming from the Government-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Deputy, please, put his question? He has one minute in which to do so.

Deputy Paul Murphy

How many have signed up? The only consistent message we hear is that lots of people have signed up. On Monday morning the Minister told us that 1.23 million had signed up, an increase of 130,000 in the past four weeks. Last night we heard the figure of 1.23 million, which was an increase of 120,000 in the past seven weeks. The Government's motion refers to a figure of 1.237 million households having responded, but we have a response from Irish Water from a month ago which refers to a figure of 1.23 million.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is Question Time. Will the Deputy, please, put his question?

Deputy Paul Murphy

What are the accurate figures? My final supplementary question is-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Does the Deputy understand he has one minute for a supplementary question?

Deputy Paul Murphy

I do. I also understand-----

An Ceann Comhairle

He is now on two minutes exactly. Please put your question, Deputy, because this is not statements.

Deputy Paul Murphy

I will put my question. What consolation prize is the Taoiseach going to give the Labour Party for enthusiastically hammering the final nails in its coffin? Will the party take the chance? Will the Taoiseach take the chance of voting for the Private Members' motion by the anti-austerity alliance tonight to abolish water charges?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Give us the real figures now.

The Taoiseach

In reply to an earlier question from Deputy Murphy, I expect that Irish Water will pass the market corporation test. It is a matter for an independent analysis by EUROSTAT. The Bill will be published very shortly after Easter. In respect of the Deputy's last comment, this is a Government comprised of Fine Gael and the Labour Party which was given a mandate by the people to deal with the most difficult economic situation our country has ever had. For that reason the Government has faced many difficult choices and has made decisions. As the Deputy will understand, commentators are entitled to commentate but politics is about people and government is about making decisions. I am not sure that Deputy Murphy has arrived at that point yet. If it ever comes his way, in whatever form, he will find he is living in a very different space than now.