Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 1 Apr 2015

Vol. 873 No. 2

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Tomorrow morning thousands of workers from Dunnes Stores will go on strike across the country. They do not want to do this but they are being forced. This reflects a broader casualisation of the workforce, a regressive trend towards lower pay and less security of hours. The strike tomorrow is essentially about low-hour contracts that have become the norm in certain sectors of the economy. It is about a simple abuse of power that a major employer is exercising over thousands of employees. I do not say that lightly.

Some 76% of the company's workforce is now working so-called part-time flexible hours. Some 70% of those in that workforce are women. The employees face uncertainty each week. They experience a fundamental lack of security and cannot plan their lives. There is no decency at the heart of the relationship between this employer and the workers.

I have met some of the workers. What was most disquieting was their fear that they could be punished by their employer simply for meeting me. That was said. It is like going back to the 19th century. We are to celebrate the centenary of the Rising next year. The Government's programme in this regard was launched yesterday. I asked myself the basic question as to whether employee rights are going backwards in certain sectors. Employees cannot obtain mortgages and cannot even get car loans. Worst of all, the system is used to control workers. They are threatened with a reduction in hours if they are not on-side and do not play ball. Sick pay is orchestrated and is almost non-existent. There is limited holiday pay, and so on.

All the workers are seeking are banded-hour contracts, which Marks & Spencer, Tesco, SuperValu and Penneys have all given. It is very regrettable and shameful that an Irish employer does not see fit to give them.

Most people in this House, including me, support basic decency. I have a basic question for the Taoiseach: does he support the Dunnes Stores workers who are going on strike tomorrow? I ask him to say he does and to articulate clearly a loud message that should be articulated by everybody in this House: we will not tolerate this abuse of power over employees.

Will the Taoiseach introduce a fair working hours Act to stop this abuse of workers? The existing legislative safeguards are no longer adequate to stop what is going on. It must stop, and the message must be sent out that if the current practices continue there will be legislative response to ensure they do not.

The Taoiseach

On the occasion of the launch by the Government of the Low Pay Commission, which is being handled by the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, its Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, and specifically the Minister of State, Deputy Gerald Nash, I had a brief meeting with the representative from Mandate Trade Union, who explained to me the position of the workers in Dunnes Stores. I support certainty and the right of people to know from their employer what hours they are expected to work each week, in so far as that is possible. Deputy Martin is aware that the Low Pay Commission has already started its process of meetings. It will report in July and the Government will act in response to that.

The Minister of State, Deputy Gerald Nash, is dealing with the question of zero-hour contracts. Deputy Martin mentioned a fair working hours Act. I will wait to see the response and proposals of the Minister of State. It is not for me, in the position I occupy, to say whether the strike should take place. This is not the first time these kinds of circumstances have arisen. As the Deputy pointed out, other stores have had to deal with this matter. They dealt with it clearly in the interest of their workers, with a view to their having clarity and confidence in respect of their working futures. I am clear that the workers in Dunnes Stores deserve no less. They need to be told by their employers what the week and month ahead hold and, in so far as possible, what the time ahead holds. I hope the mechanisms that have been in place for quite some time apply here so people will not have to go on strike. I hope the employers in this case can understand the consequences of not providing clarity to the thousands of loyal workers who provide services to those who shop in the stores daily.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The reason I ask the Taoiseach to say he supports the Dunnes Stores workers unequivocally is because I genuinely believe a message must go out to the employer in this instance. As a former Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, I know all the usual processes and mechanisms. Dunnes Stores has refused to engage with the Labour Relations Commission or Labour Court, or to adopt its recommendations. It has refused flatly to engage with the workforce representatives, as recommended by the Labour Court. There comes a time when everybody should stand up for basic decency in terms of that relationship. The experience of the workers demonstrates excessive abuse of power over the workforce. As legislators, we cannot stand over what is going on. Everybody has been rostered for Thursday, deliberately. Even those who might have hospital appointments have been rostered, deliberately, to put them behind the eight ball, so to speak, or put them under pressure such that if they do not turn up there may be consequences for them. That is what is being said on the ground to the workers. It is intolerable and unacceptable.

With the greatest of respect to the Low Pay Commission, I do not believe it will deal with this. I have not read any proposals from the Minister of State, Deputy Gerald Nash, that will apply to this issue right now. The most powerful message that could go out would be a message from the Taoiseach stating he supports the Dunnes Stores workers and that the management should do what others have done, that is, apply the very basics. The requests were quite minimal. No one is looking for an earth-shattering change, just very basic rules so workers can at least plan their lives with some degree of dignity and decency. There is an absence of dignity and decency at the heart of how Dunnes Stores is treating its workers.

The Taoiseach

Let me be clear. It is not the intention that the Low Pay Commission or the work Minister of State Deputy Gerald Nash is doing in respect of zero-hour contracts will deal with this particular problem.

I am simply saying that is a measure of Government because of a concern about clarity and the future of everyone who is a low-paid worker. That is an important issue that is being attended to now by Government.

In respect of this issue, I support the Dunnes Stores workers in having a right to clarity in so far as their working lives and working weeks are concerned. I would hope that this strike does not have to go ahead. As the secretary of Mandate trade union explained to me, this happened or was about to happen in other stores and a decision or conclusion was reached that was satisfactory for the workers in terms of giving them clarity about their week's work and their working lives. I hope the strike does not go ahead. I support the workers in their right to have clarity about their working lives. Therefore, the message to the employers is that this can be sorted out. These workers are loyal workers. They provide services every day of the week on a 24-hour basis. That should be recognised.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The company is making vast profits as well.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I wish to make it clear that Sinn Féin supports the Dunnes Stores workers and the right of all workers to a living wage. The Government does not support this concept. The Government has an aversion to equality. The Government stands with the elites and against citizens.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Gerry Adams

Today, Irish Water-----

Deputy Michael McNamara

How many public servants has Sinn Féin fired?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Today, Irish Water begins the process of issuing bills for the Government's water tax. This is a further example of the dysfunction and injustice which has marked this Government's approach on this issue.

Deputy Michael McNamara

What is the Sinn Féin policy in the North?

Deputy Gerry Adams

Water charge bills will be issued to households which are not customers of Irish Water. Bills will also be issued to households which have undrinkable water.

The Taoiseach should compare his attitude to this issue and his attitude to the banks. What action has the Government taken against the banks which have refused to pass on the benefits of the lower interest rates set by the European Central Bank? The Taoiseach has given them a veto. Does the Taoiseach believe it is fair, just or equitable for the Government to take water charges from the wages, social welfare payments or pensions of a family, while at the same time he allows the banks to withhold the benefits of lower interest rates to these same families?

Deputy Michael McNamara

How many public servants is Sinn Féin sacking?

The Taoiseach

I reject Deputy Adams's assertion that this Government is not interested in people who work on lower wages. I point out to Deputy Adams that the live register figures for today, 1 April, show that the standardised unemployment rate has now decreased to 10%. Deputy Adams will recall that when he was first elected to the House, he was one of those who spouted constantly about the numbers of unemployed going above 500,000. It is still too high and we have a job to do ahead of us, which we intend to do to manage this competently in the interests of the people. That is why the first thing the Government did with the troika - it arrived in this country not by my invitation, but it was here - was to reverse the decision made by the previous Government in terms of the minimum wage. That is why we have taken 420,000 people out of the requirement to pay the universal social charge. That is why it is the intention of Government to bring that to 500,000 when the Minister for Finance presents his budget in October. That is why, having listened carefully to the people, the level of charge for water is €1.15 per week for a single person and €3 per week for two or more adults.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The Government wants it to be more.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is why we need the Low Pay Commission.

The Taoiseach

It seems to me as if Deputy Adams is content to leave people with inferior water with 40 plus towns emptying raw sewage into lakes and rivers for the foreseeable future. I am not prepared to stand for that.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That is the Government's legacy.

The Taoiseach

I am prepared to see fixed the 30,000 leaks through which many litres of water are being lost every day. It is being wasted. Let me be clear to Deputy Adams on the question about the banks. This Government did not fix and restructure the banking system for the benefit of bankers. It is for the benefit of customers.

(Interruptions).

The Taoiseach

The Deputies opposite may well laugh, but the fact is that this issue is central to the economic catastrophe that was allowed to befall the people.

Deputy Martin Ferris

The Government has given them a veto.

The Taoiseach

We had to restructure those banks and recapitalise them. That has happened. They are now back in profitability and they are paying lower interest rates on the money they have to borrow.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They were never here.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would you stay quiet, please? Thank you.

The Taoiseach

The point is that we did not fix those banks for the benefit of the banks but rather for the customers.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

I told you to stay quiet, Deputy McGrath.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, responded to this during Priority Questions this morning. I expect the banks to do better than they have been doing in respect of variable mortgage interest rates.

Deputy Dara Calleary

So did Deputy Joan Burton.

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Taoiseach should call them in.

The Taoiseach

I notice the Fianna Fáil Private Members' business last evening called for the Economic Management Council, which Sinn Féin wants to abolish, to produce a White Paper. The Fianna Fáil Members have nothing but a catastrophic tradition in so far as banks are concerned. They need not open their mouths about it any more. As for those in Sinn Féin, who know a lot about banks as well, we did not fix them for the benefit of the banks but for the benefit of the customers, and we will be meeting the banks shortly. Will also be bringing a number of other options this month in so far as mortgage distress is concerned.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Seeing as this is April fools' day, perhaps the Taoiseach saying he did not fix the banks for the benefit of the banks but for the benefit of their customers was his attempt to get into the spirit of this day.

I asked the Taoiseach to contrast his attitude to struggling householders with his attitude to the banks. The Taoiseach did not do that. The banks have refused to pass on to mortgage holders the benefits of lower interest rates set by the European Central Bank. That is happening; I am not making it up. The Economic Management Council has not met the banks in three years. The Government has given the banks a veto. We tried to table an amendment to that but the Government guillotined the legislation when it was coming through the Chamber.

Let us consider the fact that the Taoiseach behaves as if he were a commentator or a spectator.

An Ceann Comhairle

A question, please.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The people own the banks. The Taoiseach has not reformed the banks for the benefit of their customers. The Taoiseach spoofs all the time about the great sacrifices being borne by the citizens. It is the Taoiseach who has imposed these sacrifices on them. Today - I am making the point again - on the one hand the Government sends bills out to take water charges out of people's pockets while at the same time the banks are refusing to pass on benefits to them. Again, I call on the Taoiseach to contrast or compare his attitude to the elites with his attitude to struggling households. Is the Taoiseach's approach fair?

The Taoiseach

I put it to Deputy Adams that AIB has reduced variable interest rates. I am unhappy that the level of interest rate reduction is not being passed on to consumers. Let me repeat the point.

Deputy Gerry Adams

What is the Taoiseach going to do about it?

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, will you stay quiet and listen to the answer?

The Taoiseach

When this Government first came into office, the sector was a complete and unholy mess. It has been restructured and recapitalised. Those banks are now returning to profitability.

Deputy Gerry Adams

They are keeping those profits.

The Taoiseach

AIB has reduced variable interest rates. The bank has not gone far enough. I want to see the engagement that the Department of Finance has every week with the Central Bank continue. The Government, as I said in the House yesterday, will meet the banks about an agenda of issues, including the bringing forward of a number of other actions in regard to mortgage distress. The priority for Government is that people do not have to lose their houses. Fully 100,000 have been settled satisfactorily and are paying their way. There are others in particular circumstances that need to be dealt with.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

To whose satisfaction?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams seems to be happy with a situation whereby our country, his country and my country, can continue with people having to boil water, with houses connected with lead pipes and where there is inferior quality water coming through.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Government is sending them the bill for it.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Adams has said in the House that he is a legislator and he will pay his water charges. It was the same with the person beside him, his deputy leader. The cost is €1.15 per week or €3.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

That may not be too much for the Taoiseach but it is for others.

The Taoiseach

Does Deputy Adams not believe it is fair that we should be able to raise sufficient money to invest in and fix these inferior systems? Perhaps that is how Deputy Adams wants to condemn people to have that inadequate standard for the next 15 years. I do not and the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government does not.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Answer the question.

The Taoiseach

It is time now to get on with dealing with this. The Government, having listened very carefully to people-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

It is ignoring the people.

The Taoiseach

-----set a charge of €1.15 per week or €3. The man who stopped me with the two pints in his hand last week-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

Two pints in one hand?

The Taoiseach

-----shouting about the cost of water that he could not pay-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I will have to stop you now, and I have no pint in my hand.

The Taoiseach

What he was holding in his hands would pay for water for him - because I know him - for nearly ten weeks.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Spongers and alcoholics. That is how he sees the people who will not pay. How interesting.

Deputy Tom Fleming

Last week, we had a presentation in Leinster House by members of the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland. They were introduced to the Members of the Oireachtas by Deputy Caoimhghín Ó Caoláin, who has first-hand knowledge of this ailment due to a family connection. The speakers for this sector included a person who has been afflicted with Alzheimer's disease and is going through the ordeal while trying to live as fully as possible, and a carer who is looking after his mother on a full-time basis. A contribution was also made by a GP with expert knowledge of the medical condition.

The Alzheimer's group is promoting the national dementia strategy, which was launched by the Government in December. This is aimed at meeting the needs of the approximately 48,000 people who are currently living with dementia. A rapidly growing number are afflicted by this debilitating disease and this will continue into the future. The national strategy is a first step, but real progress will require strategic financial investment, naturally, and a new social and community approach to dementia. The priority actions in the strategy have the potential, if implemented, to significantly improve the rates of diagnosis of the early stages, to improve people's journey through life and also to improve the health and social care system for these people.

Will the Taoiseach prioritise the national dementia strategy, as diagnosis and referral to the appropriate services need to be vastly improved? Will he provide adequate home care packages for the many thousands of people who urgently require these to enable them to live in their communities? Will he support a campaign to remove the stigma associated with the whole issue of dementia?

The Taoiseach

This is a most distressing condition that people find themselves in. Everybody in the House knows families or people whose loved ones or family members are so afflicted, and I know many myself.

We waited ten years for a strategy on dementia to be produced. The Minister of State, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, brought that forward after extensive consultation and published it before Christmas, and she also put together both an oversight committee and an implementation group to see that it happens. One of the action groups, Genio, has a number of projects in locations around the country, one of them here in Dublin. Atlantic Philanthropies was so taken by the quality of the strategy produced by the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, that it has contributed very substantially to this. Between it and the State, I believe over €27 million is being allocated for services and support for people who suffer from dementia in all its forms.

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter of concern to families. The vocabulary changes automatically once a diagnosis is made but, in so far as the Government is concerned, we recognise this is an issue and the Minister of State has produced the strategy after the country had waited ten years for it. There is substantial support for those who are affected by the condition, the members of their families and those who provide the various supports. I can give the Deputy further details of the work that is going on at the various locations around the country, if he wishes.

Deputy Tom Fleming

I commend Atlantic Philanthropies, which is co-operating with the Government by providing some €15 million alongside the Government commitment for a further €15 million. However, this requires substantial further funding additional to that €15 million. The national dementia strategy commits to an integrated, multidisciplinary approach and to a response by community services, primary care and secondary care in order to support people with dementia and their carers. It needs huge commitment into the future from the Department of Health and the HSE.

The facts are that 63% of the approximately 50,000 people with dementia currently live in the community, the most common form of this condition is Alzheimer's disease, and the vast majority of those with dementia are primarily cared for by a family member. They need supports to be provided at regular stages from the advisory bodies linked to the HSE and from occupational therapists in order to ensure these patients are kept at home and in the community as much as possible.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy. We are over time.

Deputy Tom Fleming

Primary care is vital to all of this. It is the first point of medical contact for people, particularly given the need for occupational therapists and all of the other supports. Early diagnosis is crucial.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will you put your question, please?

Deputy Tom Fleming

We must ensure we have high-quality diagnostic services in our hospitals as well as from GP services. Training courses for families and carers are vital. In the forthcoming budget in October, will the Taoiseach ensure that the required amount of funding is made available to build good foundations for the strategy so that it will be progressed into the future?

The Taoiseach

As I said, the Minister of State launched the national dementia strategy in December, after we had waited ten years. I pay tribute to the Alzheimer's Society of Ireland for its contribution and for the part it played in the development of that strategy over a period.

There are 50,000 people afflicted by dementia. As I said, a very substantial amount, about €27 million, is being allocated at the moment. Central features of that strategy are exactly what Deputy Fleming is talking about, and that is what is being implemented. There is an assignment of clear responsibility at management level within the HSE in respect of dementia, there is much clearer information available to people about the services that are available and there is far greater understanding about the causes of dementia and how best people can be facilitated.

It is very important that, in so far as is possible, people can be maintained in their own locations and in the community. What the Deputy has outlined has been central to the development of the strategy that is published, on which the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, has taken a very strong lead role. We are now focused on implementing that strategy. Obviously, in respect of the budget for 2016, as the figures come in for the improving economy, this is a matter of social importance and personal importance. Deputy Fleming can rest assured that the Minister of State, Deputy Lynch, and the committee dealing with this will be centrally involved in those discussions. It is not for me to predict the outcome of those discussions but, clearly, it is a matter of importance, as are many other matters, for the Government in the time ahead.