Vol. 881 No. 2
1. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for Education and Skills her views on recent comments by a person (details supplied) of the Higher Education Authority that due to the shortfall of capital and staff investment in the higher education system since 2012, it is not reasonable to expect universities and colleges to accept additional students; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [22322/15]
I seek the Minister's views on the recent comments by the chief executive of the Higher Education Authority, Mr. Tom Boland, that owing to the shortfall in capital and staff investment in our higher education system since 2012, it is not reasonable to expect universities and colleges to accept additional students.
The reality of the economic situation and the public expenditure corrections which had to be made in recent years presented challenges across all areas of public expenditure, including higher education. The sector has responded well to these challenges and has continued to provide opportunities for increasing numbers of students wishing to undertake a higher education qualification. In recognition of the pressures that higher education institutions are under an expert group chaired by Peter Cassells has been established to examine future funding options for higher education. The objective is to identify a range of approaches which, combined, will achieve a sustainable funding base to address the continual expansion of the sector while protecting the quality of education. The group is due to report at the end of this year and its report will help inform decisions on future funding for the sector. I believe that seeking to pre-empt the conclusions of the group at this stage is unhelpful.
I am disappointed by the anaemic detail provided in the Minister's response. There is a real crisis in our third level sector. As pointed out by Mr. Boland in his commentary, there has been a 15% increase in third level student numbers over the past five years and alongside that, a 12% reduction in staff numbers. Overall, there was a 24% reduction, per student, in State funding during that period, leading to real pressures across the college system and a deterioration in pupil-teacher ratios. Undoubtedly, this has put massive pressure on the sector and has affected the quality of third level education. Meanwhile, the Government refuses to address this issue, to be up-front about it or even acknowledge it. As in the case of other issues, this can is being kicked down the road. The Government has sought reports previously from the Higher Education Authority but has failed to act on them.
A question, Deputy.
I understand the group chaired by Mr. Cassells will not report until the end of this year. I seek the views of the Minister on the comments of the HEA chief executive on whether it is acceptable to continue to expect colleges to accept further students without provision of the necessary funding to cater for them. I ask the Minister to address that specific point.
As Deputy McConalogue knows, there has been pressure across all sectors of the education system as well as across all Departments because of the need to cut funding over the past number of years. The Deputy knows well why that was the case. The higher education sector has responded well to the increased student numbers and continues to provide an excellent education for people in Ireland wishing to go on to higher education. Internationally, comparisons are very good. Ireland has a very high reputation in terms of its higher education and a high transfer of young people from post-primary to higher education. I attended an international conference in University College Dublin last night at which the response, generally, from the international guests regarding the quality of education in Ireland at higher level was very positive.
I commend the universities and institutes of technology for what they have done with the reduced funding, which was an inevitable consequence of the economic crash and they know that. As I said previously, as soon as we are in recovery, we will start to look at putting some money back into all sectors in education. We got an increase in our budget last year but we are still not in a position to put significant moneys back into the education sector. That is the reality. Mr. Cassells's report will inform where we go in the future.
We all recall the promise made by the Labour Party in advance of the last general election, namely, that it would reduce the student contribution fee to €1,500. Instead, what has happened is that each student attending third level education is now being asked to pay €3,000, which is twice the fee to which the Labour Party committed prior to the last general election. Also, not one euro of the additional €1,500 which students are now being charged over and above what the Labour Party promised they would be charged goes to the third level sector. It is being absorbed into the general Exchequer. Meanwhile, the students who are now paying more for their education are experiencing a reduced service. Student services have been cut radically because colleges do not have the funding to provide them. Students are also faced with increased pupil-teacher ratios as a result of reductions in staff.
Given the expected 30% increase in third level student numbers over the next 15 years the current situation is not sustainable and must be addressed by Government. The CEO of the Higher Education Authority has indicated to Government that this is simply not manageable and that additional funding is required. This is not an issue the Government can continue to kick down the road until after the next general election. We need a real and meaningful indication of what additional funding will be provided to cater for those additional students and real action to address the crisis facing the third level sector.
The expert group has been established in recognition of the fact that the current situation may not be sustainable into the future. As I said earlier, the group will report at the end of this year, following which we will examine the options put forward. I agree with the Deputy that we need to plan for the future.
On the contribution from students, my predecessor made it clear that the fee would increase gradually year-on-year until it reached €3,000. That was made clear a couple of years ago and that is what is happening.
However, the expert group is designed to ensure we look to, and plan for, the future so whoever is in Government after the next election will have clear guidance as to how we fund higher education into the future.
It must be said that the sector has responded very well to the economic difficulties that every sector across every Department has had to confront. If one contrasts, for example, the situation in Britain with the situation here, the position of students here is not as financially pressured as it is for students in Britain. This is an issue that confronts other countries as well. We have put this expert group in place and it is doing really good work. I have already received an interim report from the group and it will make proposals for the future. As soon as we receive that report, we will debate it and make plans for the future.
2. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills if she is aware of the 2014 ESRI school leavers study that provided conclusive evidence of the importance of guidance counselling to students from lower socio-economic groups; if she is further aware that schools in that bracket cannot provide sufficient guidance counselling services within their current teaching allocation; and her plans to rectify this matter. [22312/15]
Is the Minister aware of the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, school leavers study that provided conclusive evidence of the importance of guidance counselling to students from lower socio-economic groups? Is she further aware that schools in that group cannot provide sufficient guidance counselling services within their current teaching allocation? What are her plans to rectify this?
I am aware of the study referred to by the Deputy. In any discussion about guidance, it is important to note that guidance is a whole school responsibility and does not just involve the guidance counsellor. All teachers and school leaders have a role in the pastoral care of their students, including providing them with regular and ongoing guidance.
All schools are required to provide guidance, notwithstanding the budget measure in 2012 which means that it must be managed within a school's standard staffing allocation. This budget measure was introduced as an alternative to a 0.6 adjustment to the standard staffing schedule.
My Department helped shelter the impact for DEIS post-primary schools by improving their standard staffing allocations. That was a very important protection for the cohort of our schools most in need of support. I have repeatedly argued that improvements to the staffing and funding of our schools must be a priority as the economic recovery takes hold. In the last budget, I secured the first increase in education spending over recent years, and I fully intend to continue arguing for increased investment in education in advance of the forthcoming budget.
The changes to the general allocation model for guidance counsellors, making them ex-quota, has entrenched inequality in schools. All of the research indicates that. If one looks at schools within the free education system and those within the fee paying system, there is a clear difference in the amount of guidance counselling being provided. Obviously that is due to the fact that those in the private system are being subsidised by parents.
With regard to DEIS schools, in a later question we will discuss the recent evaluation report on DEIS, but even that report states that the ex-quota allocation for guidance will have serious implications for young people in DEIS schools. Many DEIS schools have previously been in receipt of additional guidance resources through the guidance enhancement initiative but its abolition is likely to lead to even greater difficulties in combining the education, guidance and personal counselling elements of the guidance counsellor role leading to reduced resources. It is quite clear that the proposal introduced in the budget is having a detrimental effect on schools for pupils from lower socio-economic backgrounds. Those students are facing real challenges so this must be reversed.
When the measure was introduced, specific measures were implemented for DEIS schools to protect them, to some extent, from the changes relating to guidance. The idea was that they would get the extra resources to ensure that they protected guidance in their schools. As the Deputy said, we are reviewing DEIS and that is one area we can examine in the review to see what the schools have done to protect guidance.
Also, it should be noted that in the new junior cycle agreement, which has not yet been balloted on but which we hope will receive a positive vote in the autumn, there is a new subject called "well-being" which will be studied by all pupils. It will be compulsory. The parameters of that subject are about students having self-esteem and ensuring that students are able to protect themselves from psychological difficulties and so forth. I believe that will contribute to one of the areas that guidance counsellors deal with, which is individual student's concerns. The other area obviously relates to career guidance.
The Minister talked about the additional supports that were put in place on the back of the cuts announced in the budget. A response to a parliamentary question I tabled stated that there is a range of supports available to promote and support the well-being of students. It stated that National Educational Psychological Service, NEPS, psychologists are available to offer their advice and support to schools in establishing and developing school support teams. The problem with that, however, is that the service does not have the personnel or resources to implement the guidelines. Well-being guidelines for post-primary and, more recently, for primary schools have been produced by the Department, in conjunction with the Department of Health and the Health Service Executive, HSE. According to the Department, the guidelines are informed by consultation with key education and health partners and by the findings of current research. However, we do not have a full allocation of NEPS psychologists because some of them are out on maternity leave or sick leave. The Department suggests the use of NEPS psychologists to promote well-being within the schools as one of the supports being put in place, but at the same time schools are complaining that they cannot get access to NEPS psychologists to do the job they are employed to do, which is to assess students with special educational needs. There is a contradiction in what the Minister and the Department are saying, and that must be addressed.
First, NEPS was extended to all mainstream schools in September 2013. The Deputy's point appears to be that there might be issues with the recruitment of staff, but I will revert to the Deputy on that if there are specific issues in that regard. We are also working on reforming the support system for children with special needs, but that will not be introduced this September except on a pilot basis.
To refer to the original point about resourcing, I have indicated that I will examine the options available in the budget when we get whatever budget we are allocated. Obviously, we will fight for the best budget we can get for education. Certainly, guidance is one of the issues that has been raised with me when I have travelled around the country to meet various stakeholder bodies in education and, indeed, the guidance counsellors are well able to make their case as well. The issue is not closed. It is one that, along with a number of other areas, will be examined in the context of available resources at budget time.
3. Deputy Finian McGrath asked the Minister for Education and Skills if she will reduce all primary classes progressively in 2015-16. [22074/15]
Will the Minister reduce the size of all primary school classes progressively in 2015 to 2016? Does she accept that overcrowded classes are not good for children, education, teachers or generally for broader society? In a recent survey of teachers' stress and workload, 90% of teachers said that teaching has become more stressful, demanding, challenging and hectic. This is directly linked to the size of primary school classes in 2015.
This question indicates the number of different pressures there are on the budget and the different issues being raised in the context of any increased funding we will have. My focus in budget 2015 was on obtaining the additional funding that was necessary to provide for demographic growth. This funding is being used to provide 1,700 additional teachers and special needs assistants, SNAs, for our primary and post-primary schools in the coming school year. This comes on top of an extra approximately 2,300 teachers in our schools over the past two years.
The Deputy will be aware that I announced some improvements in the staffing schedule for small primary schools in February 2015. These are the only changes that I will be making to the staffing arrangements for schools for the 2015-16 school year.
It is a continuing improvement in our economic growth over a sustained period that will enable us to move to a point where we can look again at providing for additional teacher resources in schools which could bring about further improvement in the pupil-teacher ratio, PTR, class size and support for classroom teachers. In addressing the Irish National Teachers' Organisation, INTO, congress earlier this year, I made it clear that I personally believe that improving class sizes could deliver better outcomes, and that reducing class sizes will be a personal and political priority for me during 2015. However, that is a priority that will require negotiation in advance of the forthcoming budget.
I thank the Minister. I was at the INTO conference when she gave that commitment to make this a priority.
The Deputy certainly was there.
It is very important. In her response to the question, the Minister touched on the issue of economic growth and development. As far as I am concerned, there is a strong link between class size and economic growth and development. This growth is also linked strongly to education. We have heard this morning, for example, that the Economic and Social Research Institute, ESRI, expressed concerns, with respect to the positive economic growth figures next year, about overheating the economy. There is a debate - I am sure it takes place in Cabinet - as to whether we should have tax cuts or improved public services. I ask the Minister to ensure that as part of that debate, the focus should be put on public services. There is a solution to be found here in that we can assist primary school pupils in the State while preventing the economy from overheating. We should not just throw extra cash into the broader society. I welcome this morning's good growth figures but we have an opportunity to calm down. If we have any extra resources or moneys in the October budget, they should be spent on services.
I am delighted to have Deputy McGrath's endorsement and support because I will argue for extra funding for education, and the support of colleagues in the House is very welcome in that respect.
It is on the record now.
We need to get the balance right between expenditure on areas like education and health, in particular, and whatever other measures will be taken in the budget. I will certainly be seeking extra funding. Addressing the pupil-teacher ratio as soon as we can, economically speaking, is something that should be done. Until now, I have only had enough money to be able to address some of the issues around smaller schools, as announced earlier in the year. As I have mentioned, this is a personal priority. We will have to measure demographic growth, which will take some of the extra money we will get for providing extra teachers and special needs assistants, etc. There will also be other budgetary demands, although this will be one of my priorities.
It is important that the broader society generally knows of the importance of education because during the last number of difficult years, one of the arguments used for us to get out of this economic mess was the importance of education. That work has already started but it needs to be developed. It is very well to talk about class sizes but there is also the matter of educational disadvantage, with 138,000 children in the State living in poverty. That consistent poverty has increased from 6.8% in 2008 to 11.7%. Dr. Niall Muldoon, the Ombudsman for Children, has indicated we could have 37,000 children living in poverty in 2020, and there are 1,054 who are currently homeless. I am linking this to broader education. If there are warm, happy schools in disadvantaged areas, they can do much to deal with issues like poverty and economic and social disadvantage. For many children at risk, the most stable part of the day can be the five hours in a local primary school. People often miss that in serious issues like educational disadvantage or poverty in modern society.
I agree with the Deputy and I see every day when I go into schools the particular importance of early years in school for children who come from homes where there may not be many books, or where parents do not have much time to engage with children. I agree with the Deputy, and that is one of the reasons I set up the early years inspection team for the educational element. That is why we are reviewing DEIS to ensure it is thoroughly effective. From what we know, it is producing good results but it has not been reviewed since 2006.
This is absolutely crucial to children in the primary school sector and particularly the early years of that sector. Involvement with parents is another matter that we must improve in whatever way we can. For example, the parent and student charter will assist in engaging parents more in the life of the school and children in school.
4. Deputy Charlie McConalogue asked the Minister for Education and Skills her views on the number of schools which had to close on 22 May 2015 due to their use as polling stations for the referendums; if she will provide details on the impact this has on lost school days; if she will agree to liaise with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to draw up a plan to find alternative venues for polling stations to lessen the disruption on schools; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [22323/15]
The question asks, particularly in light of the recent referendums and the use, once more, of many primary schools across the country as polling stations, the Minister's views on the use of primary schools, the impact on the education system and the cost of losing out on a day's teaching as a result of schools being closed. How many schools were involved in polling activities? Will the Minister work with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government to ensure that between now and the next general election, within the next year, there will be a full audit carried out to assess what community facilities are available to use as alternatives to primary schools? In the vast majority of instances, as a result of the development of community facilities, sports clubs and community halls over the past number of years, there are real alternatives available to the use of schools, which in the distant past were the only options in many communities. There are alternatives and it is important that we make every effort to ensure they are used.
Returning officers are statutorily responsible for the conduct of elections and may, under electoral law, use school premises for this purpose. Schools that have been identified as polling stations do not require the approval of my Department to close on polling day and, accordingly, data in respect of the number of schools are not readily available within my Department. Overall responsibility for the running of elections and referenda is a matter for my colleague, the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government.
I note that for many years there has been an ongoing campaign for polling to take place on Saturdays, which would prevent the loss of any school days. In light of this, the children's referendum was held on a Saturday, with 33.5% of eligible voters taking part. This was obviously a disappointing turnout, which raises further questions about the best day for polling. The most recent referendums took place on a Friday, with 60.5% of eligible voters taking part, the highest turnout in many years.
The establishment of an independent electoral commission will allow for a much more detailed analysis of electoral turnout on different days of the week across different jurisdictions. The commission will be best placed to advise on the most appropriate venues to be used as polling stations, and I look forward to engaging with the commission on the use of school premises for that purpose.
The Minister does not need to set up or ask a commission for an opinion in order to make a decision on what she believes is the most practical place for a polling station. I am very disappointed in the reply she has given, as the Minister has really not engaged in any way on the question I put for consideration. She has diverted the issue to the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, as well as county registrars, by saying it is their responsibility. The Minister has indicated it is not the concern of her Department as to whether schools close on polling day and county registrars can close schools if they wish. The Department does not even seem to take note of how many schools are closed on polling days, which is an absolution of departmental responsibilities of monitoring what schools are open. Even after the putting of this question, the Department has not decided to check how many schools were closed.
Does the Deputy have a question?
In my rough estimation, it costs up to approximately €20 million per day to run our primary schools across the country. There have been seven referendums or elections since the last general election, with one polling day on a Saturday. At least half the primary schools, in my rough assessment, were closed across the country for use as polling stations. That would mean at least €70 million or €80 million would be the cost of lost school days but the Department has no interest in assessing it. From an educational perspective, there is no reason to close schools as there is viable alternative accommodation in every county. The Minister is ignoring this question from an educational perspective, which is unacceptable.
I did not say I had no interest.
I said a commission is being set up, and that will have the opportunity to examine the entire area. Something it should examine is whether there are alternative locations but in terms of the places in my constituency where voting takes place, I am not sure if there are alternative locations in every area for the number of polling booths that would be needed. For example, where I vote there are at least five polling stations within the one school. In terms of finding an alternative location where I live, I cannot think of any alternative to the school but I hope that will be an issue that can be examined.
Allowing polling to take place on a Saturday is probably a more viable alternative but that may pose a difficulty. It may have been the subject matter of the recent referendums but there was a turnout of 33% for one while the turnout for the other was 60%. I acknowledge there was a higher turnout for the marriage referendum than would normally be expected for a referendum but it may be more viable to consider using Saturdays as a date for referenda. That would be my personal opinion.
I understand my predecessor also spoke to the then Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government about the issue of identifying alternative venues and it is something I will certainly follow up on but there is not an easy answer to that because we have to achieve a balance between wanting people to have their democratic opportunity to vote and ensuring that children are not taken out of school unnecessarily. It is about getting that balance right, but there is not an easy answer to it.
I call Deputy McConalogue. Could we watch the clock please?
The Minister's answer is in no way acceptable. This is not a complicated problem. It may not be possible in her local polling station to find alternatives.
I am just giving that as an example but there are many others of which I am aware.
That may be an example, and that is grand. In cases where there is not an alternative available there is no problem with the school closing but this problem does not require a commission to be established. It does not require putting forward the idea that this involves moving to Saturday polling instead. What is generally required is a proper audit and assessment in each area as to whether there is a suitable alternative venue available in each community and where that is the case, the local sports hall, GAA facilities, soccer club or parish hall should be used instead. I know of many in my constituency. In my local polling station there was one polling booth yet there were seven classrooms in the school all closed for that day. One of those rooms, the general purpose hall, was used yet 400 yards down the road, there was a community centre which had even more space available. That is the case in the vast majority of instances but the Minister is refusing to engage and grasp this nettle. She is standing over a situation where each time a referendum is held many schools, and she cannot even tell me the number but it is well over half of all primary schools, have to close down. That means that on election day those parents have to either find child care for their children for that day or take a day off school.
Thank you, Deputy.
We are ignoring that. Instead, the Minister is talking about considering having referenda on a Saturday or that the commission should consider it but she, as Minister for Education and Skills, is refusing to grasp this nettle and engage-----
I have to call the Minister now.
I am not refusing to grasp any nettle.
She is. She should engage with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and ensure there is real change and a real assessment so that this situation will not arise again.
I have called the Minister.
I have engaged and will engage again with the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, and I am not refusing to grasp any nettle. In the rural areas the Deputy describes there may be alternative venues in various communities such as community halls, sports clubs and so on but in urban areas there is a large population in a smaller area more closely together. In terms of all the polling stations in my constituency, in most cases there is probably no alternative to the school. That is the reality. Should we then have some schools closing and others not closing, which is what might result?
That is the situation at the moment.
This commission will be set up. That is the appropriate forum to deal with the issue. I will make representations to it in terms of the education side of it and we will try to ensure that, where possible, schools are not used for polling stations. The fact is that, ultimately, the responsibility is not mine. It lies within the other Department, and it has the authority to decide that a school is needed for a polling station. It is an issue we will address but there is no silver bullet to solve it.
5. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Education and Skills her plans to improve the DEIS scheme; and if she will make a statement on the matter. [22313/15]
On the previous issue, unfortunately, in my constituency there are no alternative locations either bar the local school. It may be different in rural areas but certainly in urban areas the school is the most appropriate venue.
My question is to ask the Minister's views on the recent evaluation report into DEIS, her proposals arising from that report and actions her Department will undertake to improve the scheme.
I have recently begun a process to renew the DEIS programme. This process involves a number of strands which will operate concurrently over the coming school year. These strands include, first, the current consultation with education partners on appropriate interventions to tackle educational disadvantage; second, the establishment of an interdepartmental group to ensure a joined-up approach to future delivery of services in the DEIS programme; third, the establishment of a technical group to develop criteria for a new identification process for which schools should participate in the DEIS programme; and, fourth, the establishment of a DEIS advisory group within my Department. Terms of reference for these three groups are currently being finalised.
All aspects of the DEIS programme will be considered as part of this work, including development of criteria to identify schools for inclusion in the programme and appropriate interventions that build on the positive outcomes being observed in DEIS.
I will ask some questions in my supplementaries about some of her proposals but regarding the terms of reference which are being drawn up, it is important as an Opposition spokesperson to point out some of the issues I believe should be included in those terms of reference. The first is to examine the issue of funding. There is no doubt that the Government has done its best to try to protect funding for DEIS schools. However, there has been a significant cut in other aspects in regard to DEIS band 1 schools. I refer to the loss of language support teachers, the loss of visiting teacher services and the reduction in the school completion programmes. With regard to funding, there must be a recognition that while additional funding is going into DEIS band 1 schools, there is less likelihood of voluntary contributions coming into those schools so there must be some mention in the terms of reference on how funding is being allocated. I will come back to the other points.
I will be happy to take suggestions on this from the Opposition spokespersons. I agree with the Deputy that we will have to ensure that we protect funding, and there will be issues around new schools coming in and protecting funding for existing schools. That will have to be central to the decisions that are made on foot of the review. Protecting that funding in terms of the allocation for the next budget will be my responsibility. Obviously, schools not currently in the DEIS programme will be applying and we will have to ensure that there is funding available to accommodate that.
The intention is to continue what is positive and good about DEIS, and there is a lot of positivity in terms of the outcomes. For example, one of the outcomes we have seen in the recent numeracy and literacy results is that while there has been an improvement in DEIS schools there has also been an improvement in other schools. The gap has not narrowed, and that is something we will have to examine.
When we look at the differences, the gap is somewhere in the region of 0.2%. One of the proposals the Minister has examined is the establishment of an interdepartmental group. When will that happen? What Departments will be represented? What form of consultation will take place? Will a timeframe be put on that? When will it report back? Will there be an interim report? Given that we are in the final 12 months of this Government, it would be important that we would try to get those consultation processes under way as quickly as possible and to have them report back, if possible before the upcoming budget because I am sure some of the recommendations and outcomes of that consultation process will feed into the budgetary process.
I expect to get an update shortly on these matters in terms of the setting up of the groups and so on. I will come back to the Deputy when I have that information. I do not have an exact timeframe at this stage, and we are working on the terms of reference. I will come back to the Deputy as soon as I have that information.
Would it be possible to get a copy of the draft terms of reference and for myself and Deputy McConalogue to be allowed have some input into the process?
I have not got them myself yet but certainly it would be a good idea that the Deputy has an idea of what they contain.
The most important Departments in this regard are the Department of Children and Youth Affairs, which deals with issues such as school completion, and the Department of Social Protection, which organises programmes such as the school meals programme. There are probably some other Departments that should also be included.
