Water Services (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2014: Second Stage [Private Members]

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I move: "That the Bill be now read a Second Time."

I thank the Ceann Comhairle, the Bills Office and my office staff, who have helped to prepare this Bill. I thank my colleagues who have turned up to form a quorum. I really appreciate that. I do not see the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Alan Kelly, here this morning. That does not surprise me but it disappoints me. The Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, has many responsibilities, and the latest to be added to his portfolio is the drugs issue. If they could get away with it, I would say that the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, would put something into the water that would have us all go to sleep, lie down and take our dose of the medicine.

My Bill is effectively an effort to tame the beast of Irish Water. There are many hundreds of good people working in Irish Water, as there were in the county councils beforehand, doing a good public service and being obliging out of hours, on weekends, etc. They leave their families to fix breaks in supply and ensure water is in constant supply in the capital city and all the corners of Ireland. I also salute the people involved with the group schemes, who were real pioneers in their work bringing water to communities. The late, great Canon Hayes and others did that kind of work voluntarily, with enthusiasm and much pride. Moving from this, we can see that somebody had a pipe dream to set up a monopoly. "Pipe dream" is an appropriate phrase, but pipes explode every now and again as well. They did not check the pipes here first and the issue became very explosive. That pipe dream has fragmented and shattered.

My Bill was put together last September and October and I moved it here with the permission of the Ceann Comhairle in November. I am thankful it was drawn out of the lottery for this week. The Government decision of 19 November 2014 was that there would be one overarching, mainly non-executive, Ervia board with responsibility and accountability for the performance of the Ervia group. There would be two subsidiary companies of Irish Water and Gas Networks Ireland. The two subsidiaries would be subject to the control and oversight of the parent company but would have small executive boards to directly manage the business of each subsidiary. I want to make it crystal clear that the activities of all the boards, the subsidiaries, the main board and - crucially - any future subsidiaries should be open to the transparency of freedom of information legislation. There are only three or four main planks in the Bill and freedom of information is one of those. It is very important. We have seen in the past few weeks how extraordinarily difficult it is to obtain information about various banking boards and the same cannot be allowed to happen in this area. Nevertheless, it is happening right before our eyes. We were promised that the process would be transparent but it is not. This must be fully subject, unequivocally, to the full and active freedom of information process.

I wish to see the appointment of an ombudsman. The need for a completely separate and independent water services ombudsman was starkly highlighted this week by the release of information by the current Ombudsman with respect to public services. I did not have this information when I was putting together this Bill. The number of complaints to the Ombudsman about public services rose by 11% to 3,500 in 2014. When he launched his annual report last Wednesday, the Ombudsman, Mr. Peter Tyndall, stated that the increase was mainly due to the additional 200 public bodies that came within his jurisdiction for a full year for the first time in 2014, which is very telling. These included bodies in the education sector, such as the State Examinations Commission and Student Universal Support Ireland. How will the current Ombudsman deal with the inevitable flood of complaints regarding Uisce Éireann? I have always said that the only part of Irish Water that I welcomed was its ainm, Uisce Éireann. That is the only good part of it, as far as I can see. There is nothing else.

We need a separate ombudsman so we do not completely undermine and overload the current system. As we can see from Wednesday's report, it is already overloaded. Irish Water has made a mess of billing, contracting and the rest of it and we saw that unfold before our eyes all over the country. It is a wonder it is not billing people in England and America; that is how out of kilter are the ICT systems, and those people may yet receive those bills.

There is also the issue of summary of advice to the Minister from the Commission for Energy Regulation, CER. Before Irish Water was set up, the CER recommended that the economic regulatory framework for public water services in Ireland should be put in place, as it was for the electricity and gas sectors, based on four key principles. The ESB model should have been considered, admired and copied. The principles are stability, predictability, sustainability and cost-efficiency but questions genuinely need to be asked in terms of stability for whom, cost-efficiency for whom and predictability for what - my God, this will make some film in years to come. It will certainly not be for the many hundreds of thousands of households who will be trapped for repair costs. There should be an insurance policy built into the fee. It is fine if the cost is a bit extra but at least when there is a burst pipe in a house, there would be some fall-back for people on the bread line. These people are not all unemployed, as they also include people with small businesses and low-income individuals.

The CER also argued that in regulating the water sector, the commission would apply the same values as it has done in the electricity and gas sectors, namely, fair and transparent regulation, acting with integrity and respect and consulting with stakeholders. That is instead of setting up consultant companies; the vocabulary in the dictionary was changed by the former Minister, the big man from Kilkenny who is now a European Commissioner. I affectionately call him Big Phil Hogan, the enforcer. The values would also include being accountable to the Oireachtas, customers and stakeholders while making informed decisions but none of that has occurred.

This has been an absolute joke. Over the course of the past number of years, there have been at least eight increases in the price of household energy bills, all under the watch of the same Commission for Energy Regulation. It has done nothing to safeguard the interest of the household and it has been asleep at the wheel. We have seen how other regulators were found with their you-know-whats down in the past couple of weeks in different areas. They were asleep at the wheel but were offered big pensions. That is disgusting in the extreme and people are sickened by it. The Commission for Energy Regulation continues to state that in order to ensure the regulatory framework continues to be appropriate to the future needs and priorities of the sector, it proposes to adjust and refine the economic regulatory framework over time in line with the above principles. This is the type of bureaucratic language whose only purpose is to sound firm and fair. While leaving plenty of wiggle room for major change, it has nothing to do with what the hundreds of households deserve, desire and are entitled to as citizens of the State.

The need for an insurance policy provision is most clearly highlighted by the ongoing revelations this week about the extent of lead piping in the water infrastructure. I attended the weekly clinic with Deputy Cowen and others but it has become a joke. I was promised answers. I have been phoning and sending texts to people since 7.30 a.m. this morning but I still have no answers. One cannot get answers from anybody. Never mind a straight answer, we get no answer.

Families cannot be left with accumulated financial debt arising from exorbitant call out fees, and we saw the fees that were proposed. Is the alternative to leave families with leaking pipes and ever-increasing bills for water? They will be caught regardless of what way they turn. They cannot go anywhere, be it up or down the field or up or over the road. They will not even have water to wash themselves. We will not know what country we are living in as we will not be able to distinguish between whether it is a foreign country or our own country. On top of that families will then face having to find hundreds, if not thousands, of euro to have repairs carried out. That is a fact.

I do not know where the Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, the invincible, is today. I am very disappointed that a fellow Tipperary man would not have the courtesy to come to the House to debate this Bill. He says he does not own the situation, that he inherited it and it is all due to the Fine Gael Party and the former Minister, Mr. Phil Hogan. That will not get the Minister far in Rearcross or Carrick-on-Suir because people know the truth.

Where is the clarity about the massive fees that were discussed in the past? They are forgotten about now, but they were discussed previously and put into the public domain. How can a call out fee such as the proposed €120 an hour and charges such as €170 be justified for families on social welfare? I happen to know a little about pipes and I realise that if one were to carry out a survey of lead pipes in a house, the first and second hours would pass very quickly. These bills would amount to far more than the cost of paying the water bill. This is a real trick-of-the-loop job, or a case of "catch me if you can". However, when the election is held the Minister will be caught and he will have nowhere to run. He will not be saying, "catch me if you can".

I also seek clarity about the future sale, privatisation, public private partnership or whatever vehicle or wild animal the Government chooses to call it, before it flogs Irish Water as it did last week with Aer Lingus. As sure as it will get dark tonight and bright tomorrow morning that is what will happen. I seek a straight provision in the Bill that it will not be sold without a referendum. The Government is able to hold referendums on plenty of matters, so it can hold one on this question quite easily. It could have added it to the last referendum instead of the joke it had about the age for election as President. I seek to replace words such as "shall" or "may" with the phrases "will not be sold" or "cannot be sold" in the primary legislation, nothing more or less. It is unequivocal, straight language so people can say "Yes" or "No", not "shall" or "may" so barristers can argue the connotations ad infinitum in the Four Courts.

The Bill has four main objectives - a referendum about the future sale of Irish Water; freedom of information, which is vital; an insurance policy in respect of breaks and the exorbitant costs that could arise given that the stopcock could be out at the road and a mile away from one's house or at the front gate, in the driveway or at the back of the house; and the provision of an ombudsman. It is vital that an ombudsman is appointed because there will be thousands of complaints. We already have them on our desks. Every Deputy, Senator and councillor gets them, but there are no answers. Irish Water inherited the entire pipe network and water sources. One would have thought from listening to the Taoiseach and Tánaiste that there was never a pipe in the ground and that we were living in the Sahara desert, that there was not a drop of water anywhere until Irish Water was established. It is such an insult to the people who served this country, such as the pioneers of the group schemes and the engineering officials in all the county councils who designed the system. I thank them for that. It was a reasonable network. I accept there were problems in Dublin but if people had been looking after it there would be a better supply by now instead of trying to raid the Shannon. The years of Cromwell are gone. One must deal with people upfront and fairly and introduce cost saving and water saving initiatives. However, there is not one initiative in the entire system.

There is also the joke for which the Labour Party is solely responsible in its efforts to get out of the mess. The Tánaiste and Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Burton, confirmed this week that €637,000 is being paid to a consultancy company to produce the information technology, IT, required to pay back the €100 to families. Has one ever heard anything to beat that? Playschool children would not do this. The consultancy company is BearingPoint Consulting, formerly a unit of KPMG. It is another cosy network. We would need a good fire hose, with more than water in the hose, to scatter that crowd and the rot of the big consultants and big business that are plundering this country before the eyes of the people. Successive Governments have allowed this to happen.

We are going to pay €637,000 for IT alone just to return the €100. Did one ever hear such B-U-L-L? It is unbelievable. Why could the Government not simply deduct the €100 from the bill? Children in preschool, indeed children who have not yet been born, would know that. For God's sake, this is laughable. The Government is paying consultants, advisers and everybody else to screw the people and take everything from them. Another nice sum of almost €1 million is gone on this. I have also heard that union officials are demanding more staff for the Department of Social Protection to deal with this payment. They should have nothing to do with it. There are many good staff in the Department and they have enough to do in dealing with the many issues in social welfare without being dragged into this mess in an effort to calm the fire. The Government could deal with it by deducting the €100, but there would be no consultants involved and no more gravy trains for the boys. One from two is one; it is quite simple. One does not need any IT skills or mathematics graduates to do that. It is tomfoolery of the highest order. It is skullduggery and I could use far stronger words but I do not wish to use them in the Chamber out of respect to the Ceann Comhairle and everybody else.

It is a failure, a disaster and a wild animal. I have called it a beast. We have an issue with BSE today, but this is worse than animals with BSE because, as I have said previously and I hope the Ceann Comhairle will not object, it is set up corruptly. It is not the people in the organisation but the basic-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

And the girls.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Yes. I am not talking about the ordinary workers but the consultants and the companies. During the week we debated Siteserv and other issues. It is just despicable.

We must accept that this is a sick animal and call in the veterinarians and the ISPCA, take away this beast, give it a nice death, have a wake, a burial and a small celebration and then carry on with running the country. People always had water and will always have water. The Government should support ordinary people, not take away all of their funds and try to destroy them. Look at all the strife this is causing. Above all, it is interfering with the daily work of the Department of Social Protection which should be dealing with its own problems rather than setting up IT systems to give back €100 to farmers and all of those who have septic tanks and their own water supplies. They never dealt with Irish Water, yet we are going to give them €100.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is over time.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank you, a Cheann Comhairle, for your forbearance.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality (Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin)

I thank Deputy McGrath for giving me the opportunity to address the issues associated with the Bill he has published. The provision of sustainable water services is of critical importance to citizens and the economy of our country. As Members will be aware, modernising and improving water services delivery in Ireland is a key policy objective in the programme for Government.

The establishment of Irish Water has been one of the most significant elements among a wide range of public sector reform measures achieved by the Government. The move towards the utility model will deliver major benefits to our people and to our economy in a number of ways, notably through providing a more structured and co-ordinated approach to the delivery of water services on a national basis; achieving economies of scale in service delivery and more efficient procurement of materials and services; reducing unacceptable levels of waste from the drinking water distribution system with an estimated 40% of treated drinking water being unaccounted for prior to the establishment of Irish Water; and reducing the overall costs of delivering water services.

The establishment of Irish Water within Bord Gáis Éireann, which has now been renamed Ervia, was an important step in assisting the utility to leverage the existing core expertise available to Bord Gáis as a modern and efficiently run utility. Ervia and Irish Water estimate that establishing Irish Water within the BGE group has saved potentially tens of millions of euro. In the longer term, the establishment of Irish Water will lead to a more efficient service due to economies of scale, and to a higher quality and more resilient service due to increased capacity to invest and innovate.

The reform of water services is not only important to delivering better value for money to our citizens but is also critical to supporting economic development and growth. By 2030, the world is expected to need 40% more water than will be available. We are distinct from most countries due to the level of fresh water available, a benefit we can turn to our advantage by creating a world class water sector that can attract water-intensive industries such as ICT, pharma-chem and agrifood to Ireland. These industries already sustain well over 200,000 jobs between them.

This Bill aims to amend the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 to provide for the following: Irish Water to be subject to freedom of information legislation; creating a dedicated independent ombudsman for resolving disputes related to Irish Water; ensuring that Irish Water will not be transferred to private ownership or public private partnership without such ownership or partnership being put before the people via referendum; and requiring that the Minister direct Irish Water, within two years of its establishment, to provide for the provision of an insurance policy to all of its customers with respect to water leakage and damaged infrastructure.

A number of the proposals in this Bill have already been comprehensively dealt with through legislation introduced by the Government. First, the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, included Irish Water under FOI legislation. The Water Services Act 2014 then included the requirement that any proposal to change the ownership status of Irish Water would first be put to the people. Protecting the interest of customers of Irish Water has been a high priority for the Government throughout the water reform process. To ensure this protection, the 2014 Act provided that the Commission for Energy Regulation, which had previously been assigned the function for water regulation, was required to establish a dispute resolution process for Irish Water customers.

I will now deal with the specific proposals contained in the Bill. Irish Water is already subject to FOI legislation. Under the Freedom of Information Act 1997 (Prescribed Bodies) Regulations 2014, Irish Water has been subject to the provisions of the FOI Acts from 17 July 2013.

In regard to the independent ombudsman for water, it was a policy decision of the Government to establish Irish Water as a public utility, and this is reflected in the legislation passed by the Oireachtas. The legislative framework the Government has put in place to establish Irish Water and the CER, as the economic regulator for Irish Water, means there is a robust process for the protection of customer interests and clearly demonstrates that the customer was at the centre of Government's thinking when framing the legislation. As can be seen from the extensive activity being undertaken by the CER, this process is operating effectively.

In addition, the CER has been given a specific statutory role under the Water Services Act 2014 in regard to dispute resolution for Irish Water customers. This will involve a similar service to that operated by the CER for the gas and electricity sectors, whereby it can investigate customer complaints that Irish Water has not resolved. I do not believe the creation of a dedicated independent ombudsman for resolving disputes related to Irish Water, as suggested in this Bill, is therefore warranted. Similar to the approach it has taken in the electricity and gas industries, the CER has also required Irish Water to submit a customer handbook outlining the minimum customer service standards it will provide to its customers. The customer handbook comprises Irish Water's customer charter, codes of practice and terms and conditions of supply.

Along with these measures, the CER will engage with both Irish Water and the Environmental Protection Agency to develop complementary complaints processes to ensure customers are directed in an efficient manner to the appropriate organisation with their complaint or query. In this regard, it should be noted that Irish Water is also subject to statutory supervision by the EPA and the Health Service Executive in respect of any environmental and human health aspects of its water services provision.

In regard to the ownership of Irish Water, it has been made very clear that the Government is totally opposed to the privatisation of public water services and there is no question of the service being privatised. The Water Services Act 2013 provides for the establishment of Irish Water as a subsidiary of Bord Gáis Éireann, conforming to the conditions contained in the Act and registered under the Companies Act. The Act provides that Irish Water is registered as a private company limited by shares under the Companies Act, with one share in Irish Water issued to Bord Gáis Éireann, now Ervia, and the remaining shares allocated equally between the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government and the Minister for Finance. As Ervia is a fully State-owned company, Irish Water is, accordingly, in full State ownership. Subsequently, an amendment introduced in the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 prohibits each of the three shareholders from disposing of their shareholding in Irish Water and thus places a statutory prohibition on the privatisation of Irish Water.

To copperfasten this prohibition, the Water Services Act 2014 provides that any proposal by a future Government for legislation that would involve any change in the State's ownership of Irish Water, as outlined, would require approval by both Houses of the Oireachtas and subsequently any proposal would have to be put to the people via a plebiscite before such legislation could even proceed. Also, there is a further statutory provision which safeguards water services infrastructure in public ownership. Section 31(12) of the Water Services Act 2007 prevents Irish Water from entering into any agreement or arrangement with another person which involves or may involve the transfer of assets and infrastructure from Irish Water to that person.

In regard to an insurance policy for customers, it is not the function of Irish Water to provide any type of insurance policy for customers in terms of leaks or damaged infrastructure. Under the Water Services Act 2007, responsibility for repair and maintenance of the internal water distribution system from the main stopcock to the house and within the house rests with the homeowner. This is similar to the situation with other utility services, such as gas or electricity. The proposal in the Bill to change responsibility for internal repairs and maintenance would have significant implications from a financial perspective for Irish Water and could have wide-ranging impacts for other utility service providers. I do not believe, therefore, that the proposal in the Bill is an appropriate approach to take on this issue.

This morning's debate provides an important opportunity to remind the House of the significant progress that has been made in implementing the Government's water sector reform programme. This programme is based on three pillars: the establishment of a national utility to provide water and waste water services on a national basis; the establishment of a sustainable funding model for water services, underpinned by domestic and non-domestic water charges and the ability of the national utility to borrow from capital markets to increase infrastructural spending, and to increase annual expenditure from approximately €300 million per annum when Irish Water was established to at least €600 million per annum; and the introduction of independent economic regulation of Irish Water, which has been assigned to the Commission for Energy Regulation.

With each new challenge in our public water system that Irish Water confronts, the underlying need for reform becomes increasingly clear and justification for reform becomes stronger. Public water services were and remain in need of change in the way they are delivered, as does the way they are funded. The previous system of providing water services through local authorities was not working properly, despite the best efforts of the dedicated and experienced staff involved. Local authorities were restricted in their ability to borrow, so they could not invest adequately in the system. The time taken to make decisions to invest was often slow, bureaucratic and inefficient. Planning for new water services largely stopped at the county boundary, so there was limited opportunity to achieve economies of scale on a regional or national basis.

We saw and continue to see the results of this fundamentally flawed approach in almost every city, town and county. There are major issues around the quality of water supply and the capacity of the existing system to supply treated water in the quantities needed by households, business and industry. For example, there are almost 20,123 people on boil water notices from 21 supplies, and more than 955,000 people depend on drinking water supplies that are at risk of failing the required standards. Almost half the water treated, at significant cost, escapes through leaks and is unaccounted for. For example, Irish Water was able to establish that 22 households were leaking over 1 million litres a day into their driveways. That is enough to serve the daily needs of the town of Gorey.

There are 44 towns where largely untreated sewage is running into our rivers and seas, including popular seaside towns such as Cobh, Youghal and Bundoran. This cannot be allowed to continue or it will be hugely damaging to our vital tourism sector. In Dublin, more than 800 km of piping is over 100 years old. There is an insufficient water supply for the greater Dublin area. Earlier this year, Irish Water published a project need report, which identified that projected demand for water in Dublin alone is expected to increase by over 50% by 2050. This is far beyond the capacity of the existing sources which serve the region.

Nationally, our population is increasing, our economy is growing and our climate is changing. These realities bring new demands and challenges for our water system, the reality that a single national utility is best equipped to manage. By 2030, our river basin management plans will have been reviewed a further three times and the quality of our water bodies will have to be improved. Our rivers, lakes and other water bodies need greater protection, not just for the protection of public health and our natural environment, but to ensure that our thriving tourism industry can continue to prosper under the banner of Ireland's image as a clean, green country.

The three pillars of reform - a national utility, a new sustainable finding model and the introduction of independent economic regulation - have been implemented and are leading to major changes in how we plan and deliver water infrastructure and services. Irish Water has introduced fundamental reforms to the planning and delivery of water services. It has adopted a new approach to asset management, for example, which has resulted in a significant change of approach to infrastructural delivery. Central strategic planning is now based on accurate asset performance data and full control of all investment decisions. The utility is now planning investment consistently across the asset base rather than large-scale, one-off investments. An example of this is the proposed Ringsend wastewater treatment plant upgrade, where an alternative approach to a treatment plant extension will save the company €170 million in capital investment. The utility has also standardised certain operational procedures, leading to benefits in performance and energy costs. It is conducting plant and process audits, which are identifying repair needs, assisting in planned maintenance programmes and providing for efficiency scoping. It has introduced utility systems to manage spend, improve value for money and capture the condition and performance of water services infrastructure.

Under the service level agreements, annual plans and the 2014-2017 transformation plan, Irish Water has begun implementing other initiatives that will standardise and modernise operations, asset management, customer service, procurement improvement, and assets data intelligence. Examples of this are the hand-held devices that council staff will be given so that they can be given work orders quickly to fix water problems and report back when they are completed, and the single national laboratory service for testing water samples. The greater economies of scale which are possible through having one national utility rather than 31 separate local authorities have resulted in €12 million in procurement savings in the company's first year alone.

In the area of electricity supply, a major cost in the production of water, Irish Water's current renewable and efficient energy initiatives aim to reduce costs by 33% by 2020.

In April 2014, Irish Water became the main contact point for customer queries and reports regarding water supply outages and water quality through its customer call centre.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

One cannot get through to them.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

This development was another milestone along the road to achieving a single, standardised national service throughout the country, with a greater focus on those who use the public services.

Such progress would not have been possible without strong co-operation between Irish Water and local authorities, which have decades of experience of providing water and wastewater services with great care and dedication. The 12 year service level agreements, now almost a year in existence, have proven to be a strong partnership between the local authorities' expertise in operations and the considerable network and utility management experience within the Ervia Group. This was most evident during Storm Darwin in February last year, when the two parties collaborated effectively to address emergency situations and maintain clear lines of communication with each other and with the public during a time of pressure on the public water system.

The scale of the roll-out of the metering programme has been particularly impressive. By any measurement, the domestic metering programme has been a success. Unparalleled anywhere in scale or ambition, Irish Water has installed almost 700,000 meters in just over 21 months.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Unbelievable.

Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin

The utility surpassed its end of year target in 2014 six weeks ahead of schedule, and is delivering a programme that is sustaining approximately 1,050 jobs throughout the country, providing the kind of economic stimulus we need. Some 80% of these jobs are held by people in one of three social inclusion categories, namely, the unemployed, employees of small and medium enterprises, or graduates-school leavers-apprentices. This far exceeds the Government's original target of 25%.

As well as facilitating usage-based charging, which international evidence shows can reduce domestic consumption by up to 10%, the metering programme is detecting customer side leakage. Irish Water estimates that about 6% of all water produced is lost through customer side leakage.

The presence of meters is helping Irish Water identify leakage that is now being fixed through the interim first fix free scheme. The interim phase of this scheme covers leaks from the boundary of the property to a point as close as possible to the dwelling, but will not include leaks internal to the dwelling or other buildings on the property. This involves identifying customer side leakage between the meter box and the point of entry into the house, offering repairs of these leaks to customers. The utility has offered over 2,500 customers leak investigations under the interim scheme, and plans on issuing 7,500 notifications regarding larger leaks, with notifications prioritised in order of size of leak to maximise potential water savings. It plans to conduct the associated leak investigations and qualifying repairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Minister's time has expired. I call Deputy Brian Stanley, who has ten minutes.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this Bill. I compliment Deputy McGrath on bringing it forward. While we would not agree with everything contained in it, we support the spirit and intention of the Bill.

The Minister's lengthy script, which was distributed, refers to the three pillars of reform and the success in setting up the national utility. I would not consider the setting up of Irish Water a success. In terms of a sustainable funding model, I ask the Minister to examine its operational funding for this year and the sources, capital investment and voodoo economics being performed in regard to the write-off of rates, the so-called water conservation grant, for which one does not have to save a drop of water, and the transfer of €500 million, with the stroke of a pen in December, back onto the State's balance sheet in a water debt, which is the exact opposite of the Government's stated intention in respect of Irish Water. All of those costs were to be removed from the balance sheet but they are accumulating. Those are not my sums; they are the Minister's.

Irish Water must be abolished and replaced with a public company that is fit for purpose. I have stated that many times. Some commentators have been slow to pick up on that but they can read it in the Official Report, particularly for 4 December when I outlined our position regarding the need to dismantle Irish Water. We will support the passing of the Bill at this Stage to allow it go to committee where we believe it should be amended.

Unfortunately, certain groups are claiming that Sinn Féin holds a different position from what I have outlined, despite the fact that I am on record on many occasions in the House calling for Irish Water to be replaced. In April, our party also published a water services repeal Bill that would have legislated to abolish both domestic water charges and Irish Water but it was not allowed come before the House because there was a funding implication. We provided for that in our budget submission last year.

To return to the substance of the Bill, the main focus this week has been on the issue of not being able to obtain information from Irish Water under the Freedom of Information Act. Deputy McGrath's Bill calls for the company to be made fully subject to freedom of information, FOI, legislation. I am aware the Bill was drafted prior to that provision being inserted but it does not fully comply with that. All of us have had difficulty getting information from Irish Water. I tabled a priority question to the Minister in another attempt to get further information on the number of bills sent out and the number that have been paid, and that was ruled out of order. There is a big wall between us and information. I recall addressing the former Minister, Phil Hogan, on that issue several times because he continued to say Irish Water would be a stand-alone semi-State company. I know what that means, as does the Minister and everybody in this House. It means it does not have to disclose certain information. I predicted that would happen, and it has happened.

It is clear there is a reluctance on the part of the Government to have Irish Water provide such information. Members of this House should know the number of bills that have been sent out and the number that have been paid. That would strongly indicate that the number of people who have not paid is far higher than the Government or Irish Water would like people to believe.

With regard to Deputy McGrath's proposal, the Freedom of Information Act does apply now to Irish Water. However, there are problems and I request that the Minister ensure that the company is complying fully with its statutory obligation to supply information under FOI requests that have been submitted to it.

Deputy McGrath wants a referendum to be held before Irish Water could be sold off but Sinn Féin is stating that inserting a clause in the Constitution allowing the public to do that so as to protect Irish Water from being sold off is the best way to proceed. The Government has put that in legislation. The Minister said, and I accept it, that at this point he would not like to see Irish Water being sold off. Some might question that because of what the Government is doing with Aer Lingus. We will accept that is the case but in terms of future governments, who will be here in ten years time, with all the new parties? We could have brand nua, a right wing coalition of God knows what concoction.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Uisce imithe.

Deputy Brian Stanley

They could do that, and that is the fear. I say that genuinely to the Minister. Our Bill proposing a referendum to insert a clause in the Constitution would firmly place the ownership of the water resources and water services in the hands of the people. The Minister's approach just to use legislation is weak.

The reason water services throughout the world were in public hands has nothing to do with ideology; it is just hard facts. First, governments recognised that water was important. Second, when the system of public water supply to houses was established, private companies throughout the world were not interested but they are starting to become interested now because these services and infrastructure have been built up over many years.

With regard to the operation of Irish Water, recent reports on the continuing level of leaks and the number of lead pipes prove that rehabilitation of the system is not taking place. The Minister is correct that priority is not being given to the meters. They are being put in at a huge rate, but they are being put into a leaking system. If we accept the Minister's statement that 6% of the water produced is lost on the domestic side of the meter, that means 3% is leaking from the other side of the meter. However, 50% is leaking out of the total system, with 47% leaking out of the public infrastructure, as the Minister has clarified.

There is another problem concerning insurance. I raised a case in Portlaoise with the Minister in this House. A contractor fitted meters in a housing estate. One inhabitant, a widow, was away at the time. She came back after a few days to find that the meter had been fitted and turned back on. I raised this with engineers. One needs to wind the old stopcocks several times to turn them on and off, but with the new meters one just does a half turn and the water goes on full force. The contractor turned the water back on, blew the middle out of the filter in the water softener in the utility room and destroyed the utilities in the room and the entire house. I tried to get a resolution for that widow but failed because it has bounced back and forth between the contractor and Irish Water and we have hit a brick wall. There is no protection. The actions of contractors are causing problems for householders. I visited that woman's house twice. A councillor brought it to my attention. I am very disappointed to say that this unfortunate woman received no resolution and has been left to carry the can for thousands of euro worth of damage.

In respect of the proposal for a dedicated ombudsman, our party's proposal about maintaining water services in public hands and having a proper public body that would be accountable to the Oireachtas would negate the need for an ombudsman. The Minister of State has highlighted the CER but the Government brushed it to one side. The Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government drove a bulldozer over it last October or November. The CER might as well not exist. To quote Mao Zedong, the CER is a paper tiger. Anybody who looked at the Government's actions last autumn would have seen that it basically steamrollered over the CER, so it is an ineffectual paper tiger that is useless at this stage. The people working in it might be well intentioned but they have been rendered obsolete. If water services were constitutionally protected, Irish Water was abolished and there was a proper public body that was accountable to the Oireachtas, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Minister, it would solve that problem.

We will support the passage of the Bill to the next Stage. We are doing so on the basis that there are aspects of it that could be addressed in other ways, some of which I have outlined. It does at least address major issues. We need to look again at water services. The Deputy has done us a service in bringing it up at this point and introducing the Bill. I know the Minister of State only got halfway through his script. It was one of those long scripts that Chinese leaders would be handed.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am afraid the Deputy must conclude as well.

Deputy Brian Stanley

The Minister of State said it would be cheaper. This service will not be cheaper than it has been up to now. Substantial moneys were invested in the rehabilitation of water mains during the previous Government's term. This work has slowed down and it will become more costly to operate the system. The establishment of Irish Water was a bad day's work.

Deputy Finian McGrath

I welcome the Bill and commend Deputy Mattie McGrath on bringing it before the House. I know things have moved on and there have been changes over the past number of months, but it is a very clear and sensible piece of legislation that tries to deal with Irish Water and its responsibility to the people of this country. This is the important thing, even though we have moved a bit over the past three months.

The issue of water services and water charges is a disgrace. The Government's handling of it, the consultants and the lack of accountability over the past number of months are appalling from a Government that promised change, reform, openness and accountability. Many people are asking what is going on here. Even this week, we have seen the Taoiseach refusing to answer questions in this House about Irish Water, the number of people who have been paid and who is paying. I do not think it is good enough or that it is transparent or accountable.

I commend the Deputy on his great work on the Bill. There are three key points in the legislation. It is primarily an attempt to rein in the ability of Irish Water to further mire hundreds of thousands of households in repair-related debt, which could run into multiples of the annual water charge. It also contains a provision for the establishment of the independent water ombudsman and the retention of the State water infrastructure in public hands, which I strongly support. It deals with the issue of full transparency and accountability in respect of Irish Water under the freedom of information legislation. I accept that this has moved on since then. Despite these efforts, Ministers are still not answering questions, which is appalling. It is also very upsetting for taxpayers.

Another issue that has arisen in recent days is that of lead in pipes and public safety. More than 200,000 houses could have lead pipes. People in St. Anne's in Raheny, Marino, Artane and Coolock in my own constituency of Dublin Bay North have contacted my office about this issue and are very concerned. They are being asked to pay for water, but at the same time they find out that they must fix the water pipes themselves. I believe some small grant could be made available for some people, but it will be means-tested. The vast majority of people will be hammered again. Some people are talking about extra costs to a family of around €5,000 or €6,000. This is once again an example of people on the ground being hammered by the Government.

The issue of cost is important, but the major issue for me is public health. The Minister of State said earlier on that there would be a campaign relating to this, but we need more than a campaign to deal with this issue. Lead in pipes is a serious public health issue. It can increase the number of children born with disabilities. We must focus on this issue. We have seen the reaction to the BSE finding over the past 12 hours. We all hope that works out well because, regardless of politics, we all want to see our agricultural sector flourish and develop. Lead in pipes needs to be tackled head-on. There is no point in coming out with statements and woolly campaigns. They are not enough. There is a major potential health crisis and we need to focus on this issue. The Minister and Irish Water need to wake up, smell the coffee and deal with the issue.

The Minister of State said that 20,123 people were on "boil water" notices from 21 supplies. More than 955,000 people depend on drinking water supplies that are at risk of not meeting the required standards. This poses a major risk. What has the Government been doing over the past 12 months? We have heard about leaks and lead in pipes and we now see people with "boil water" notices. The Government should fix the leaks and sort the water as well.

I think there are in the region of 800 km to 900 km of pipes in Dublin city that are over 100 years old. Another issue that has been left out of this debate is the environment. Lough Derg is a beautiful lake in County Tipperary that is visited by many tourists. I know the Minister of State knows the area around Dromineer and places like that well. There are major concerns about Irish Water proposing to take water from the lake. There are concerns that the water levels could be lowered, with effects on fishing, tourism and revenue.

This is related not only to Irish Water but also the broader debate about what is happening in this country. We have a long way to go before we have competent planning and quality services.

The relationship between water charges and what has been happening in society over the last four years is also relevant to this debate. I refer in particular to austerity. I do not accept the way in which certain EU member states are bullying other countries on the issue of debt. The IBRC debate earlier this week revealed that certain people had their debts written off while regular mortgage holders got screwed, received nasty letters or had their houses sold. The Government needs to change its attitude and the EU should stop bullying small countries like Greece. Greece was not destroyed by Syriza. Successive centre-right Governments were to blame for that.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to stick to the Bill.

Deputy Finian McGrath

It is related to Irish Water. Deputy Mattie McGrath's Bill seeks to amend the Water Services Act 2013 to make Irish Water subject to freedom of information provisions. The performance of the board of the subsidiary company would be fully subject to freedom of information requests. The issue of transparency arose in the past several days. In our debates on Irish Water, we must also focus on the cost of the project, the amount of money that has been wasted and the serious public health issues in respect of boil water notices and lead pipes. Approximately 200,000 families are potentially at risk. We do not need windy campaigns; we need sensible policies.

I commend my colleague Deputy Mattie McGrath on bringing this legislation before the House. It demonstrates the importance of having independent voices in the Dáil. I know Deputy Cowen will strongly endorse that stance. We need people who can bring new ideas, policies and visions which can help this country. The Bill before us will help to develop water services on this island.

Deputy Joan Collins

I welcome the opportunity to speak on Deputy Mattie McGrath's Bill. It is important that we continue to debate this issue because it is being raised on doorsteps across this country. From its very inception, Irish Water was regarded as a toxic entity by the citizens of this State. Such was the opposition that huge numbers of people took to the streets to protest it. These thousands and thousands of people finally forced the Government to backtrack on its plans for Irish Water. Fianna Fáil reached agreement with the troika to privatise water services and commodity water, and the current Government continued that policy. It is amazing that the Labour Party continues to support Irish Water. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform was opposed to water service charges while he was in opposition, as were many of his party colleagues. When Deputy Eric Byrne stood in the 2000 general election he issued a leaflet which stated:

A number of issues will emerge in the forthcoming general election: massive job redundancies, poor state of our health and education systems, traffic congestion, and lack of proper childcare.

Service charges will also be an issue. Be warned: the same politicians who brought you rubbish charges are planning to introduce new water and other service charges in the future.

You should ask all canvassers:

- Do you support services charges?

- Do you support jailing people who do not pay service charges?

The same Deputy voted for Irish Water, which has commodified a crucial human requirement. It is an absolute scandal and the Labour Party should be ashamed of itself.

We know what happens when utilities are commodified. Deputy Eric Byrne and I opposed bin charges because we knew that once waste collection was commodified it would become attractive to corporations around Europe and the world. Water is the new oil. From Dublin to Detroit and from Bray to Bolivia, people are demanding that their water remain in public ownership. Some people have made the outrageous claim that we never paid for water. We always paid for our water through VAT and motor tax. Local authorities received €1.2 billion every year to manage our water supply. Questions about how that money was used could have been addressed by bringing the water service departments in local authorities together as a national grouping. I raised the issue of water supplies and repairs of leaks on numerous occasions while I was on Dublin City Council. We were told there was no problem with making money available but that the tendering process was cumbersome and lengthy and once the tender was complete it took even more time before the workers were actually fixing the pipes. The Government should have addressed those issues instead of establishing the toxic entity that is Irish Water.

The Government claims that water meter installation is proceeding well. That is not the case in the many areas which have resisted water meters. In Donegal, the companies which were given the contract for installing meters subsequently pulled out because they feel they cannot complete this work. There was huge resistance in working-class areas of Dublin city because people see water meters as the next step towards privatisation. I worked with the community in my own area in Parnell Road, Crumlin, when residents objected to water meters. We were arrested in an over-the-top response to our protests. Peaceful protests should be respected by Irish Water, the Garda and the State. Arresting people is not the proper way to respond because it causes friction in the community and risks undermining the good work that community gardaí have done.

The progressive work that the Government claims is being done by Irish Water, such as dealing with boil water notices, could easily have been carried out by the local authorities if a coherent strategy had been developed on a national basis. The Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, is aware of the quality of the work done by those who worked in the water departments of our local authority. They knew every part of our city. The Government claims it only recently realised that we have problems with lead pipes, but we knew for decades that any house older than 70 years could contain lead piping. Members on the Government benches had the opportunity to deal with that issue while they were in the local authority but they failed to do so, even though the problems were repeatedly brought to their attention by local authority engineers.

At the end of the day, I support the Bill over the issue of privatisation. I do not think the Government can stand over the legislation it introduced. Aer Lingus was a State-owned company until Fianna Fáil sold 75% of it a number of years ago and this Government is about to sell off the last 25% of it. It is not possible to know how that will impact on our strategic need for access to and from this country. The Government should be ashamed of doing that.

In all this, the TTIP is looming in the background. On Wednesday, the votes were stopped and did not continue. I am sure it will come back on the agenda again. We know what TTIP is - a secret deal that is now being debated in the European Parliament. It allows big multinational companies to hold governments to account if they introduce anything that would affect their profits. It is a very dangerous trade agreement. It also has a private court to determine whether these big multinationals are right regarding taking governments to court or holding them to account. It is very dangerous and it should be debated in the Dáil, as we have not had a chance to do so. It has been discussed at a committee but we should have a debate in the Chamber to hear the Government's stance and whether it will oppose it.

Tomorrow, there will be a meeting of the Right2 Water campaign to discuss policy for the next general election, including the possibility of standing candidates in every constituency it can. We will discuss policies on the right to health, the right to education, the right to transport, the right to a democratic accountable government, the right to water and other issues. Coming out of that I hope we will have a strong cohesive alternative to put to the people. Yesterday, on behalf of the five unions involved, Mr. Michael Taft issued a new fiscal framework for progressive government after the next election. This pointed out where €10 billion could be found to put back into the economy and reverse the cuts in social protection and the other areas that have affected working people most.

I support the Bill. The new legislation was only introduced because of people power and people on the street. A couple living on the north side of Dublin recently received a bill from Irish Water. It was for €64.40, the capped amount. However, it also mentioned that the metered amount would have been €476. That is the amount the couple would be expected to pay if metering was being used at the moment. That comes to €1,900 a year. People are absolutely gobsmacked at that and it is why people are protesting. They see the capping until 2018 as just trying to pull the wool over people's eyes and keep them moving back. However, people will be back out on the streets in the near future and we will be putting up candidates in the general election.

Deputy Barry Cowen

Fianna Fáil supports the broad principles behind the Bill. We do not believe it goes far enough and we call for Irish Water to be abolished as we have done on many occasions since this whole sorry debacle began. We commend and compliment Deputy Mattie McGrath on introducing the Bill. Unfortunately, the time allocated to me and others is insufficient to go through the chronological order of events since the debacle began and to highlight the total inefficiencies and the administrative mess that is Irish Water.

As the previous speaker mentioned, in recent weeks and months we have seen the arrival of incomplete and inaccurate bills. The refusal to reveal how many have paid underlines the Government's haphazard policy making on water charges and the administrative mess that is Irish Water. It is clear that the establishment of the Irish Water super-quango has been a complete debacle and it has lost the support and confidence of the public. The Government will struggle to raise funds from the new charges and will not invest an extra cent than what had been invested on an annual basis by previous Administrations.

We do not know the net income relating to that revenue because we have not been given a breakdown of the detail of the administration associated with the €100 grant, as it is called, for turning on the tap. All the while, €540 million has been wasted on water meters that will not be used. In addition, we have had €172 million wasted on setting up Irish Water, particularly the €85 million on consultants. The accountancy trick of taking Irish Water off the national balance sheet has backfired badly. It is time to suspend water charges and abolish Irish Water. It is never too late to do the right thing.

The Bill before the House today contains three key points. In the time allocated to me, I want to deal in particular with the first one. Since it was set up, one item has been rectified, which is the inclusion of Irish Water under the remit of freedom of information legislation. We acknowledge that, although the Government made that change at great pain and was dragged kicking and screaming into doing so. The initial configuration of Irish Water did not allow for it and it seems to provide still a mechanism by which information does not flow freely from this body.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Barry Cowen

This is a trait that has emerged from the Government over a period of time and the public are beginning to realise it - we certainly have. There have been three major issues in the lifetime of the Government which demonstrated procrastination on the part of the Government in withholding information. I and other spokespersons tabled many parliamentary questions at the time of the setting up of Irish Water. We were met by the downright refusal of the relevant Department to answer questions pertaining to the costs associated with its set-up. It took a slip of the tongue on the part of the CEO on a radio programme to eventually expose the massive waste of expenditure on consultants even though we had been assured that the relevant expertise to set up this entity was available within the resources of Bord Gáis Éireann in an effort to secure the contract ahead of Bord na Móna, its main competitor at that time.

The former Minister, Commissioner Phil Hogan, withheld information that was eventually exposed and led to what has ensued. In recent times, Deputy Catherine Murphy tabled 19 questions to the Minister for Finance over the purchase of Siteserv. That has led to considerable difficulties on the part of the Government, eventually leading it to put in place a commission of inquiry to investigate all aspects of that deal in order to assure the public, if it eventually does, that there was nothing untoward in that process. However, it could have been avoided. The public could have been made fully aware if the Minister had answered the relevant questions. It took 19 questions and he eventually complimented the Deputy on getting the information through freedom of information requests.

As recently as two days ago, the Minister who took Leaders' Questions on Wednesday would not answer questions on the number of bills which had been paid and what figures emanated from that process heretofore. That is just not on. Nothing has been learned. It is a trait that has evolved and has not only become very obvious to us in here who have seen it from day one, but the public have caught on. The public will hold the Government to account when they are asked for their verdict on its performance in government and in disseminating information.

Deputy Mattie McGrath referred to the establishment of the weekly clinic, which I attended this week. I did so because of the Minister's public statement on the lead pipes. I raised that issue in the House over two years ago when there was much fanfare over Irish Water having a first-fix policy and that no expense would be spared in order for people to rectify issues surrounding the provision of water to their homes.

I knew the extent of lead piping in the country.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Making a pig's ear out of it.

Deputy Barry Cowen

That is what the Government has done since day one.

I commend Deputy Mattie McGrath on introducing this Bill and giving us the opportunity to make these comments. It would take me two days in the House to give an adequate reflection of this disaster. I could not do it in these ten minutes. Instead, I wish to highlight the freedom of information issue and give the public some of the details surrounding this ongoing scam. There is no scientific basis for claiming a figure of 200,000 in terms of the number of households that are affected by lead piping. No information leads one to believe that it is correct or incorrect or substantial or not. We might get a grant system, the Minister might announce it in the next couple of weeks and he will get money that he will be able to provide next January, but he is talking total rubbish. He does not know how many households there are or how much this will cost and he has held no discussions with his Cabinet colleagues on getting the sort of money that might be needed. It will probably be a lottery system anyway.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Frank Feighan)

The Deputy has run out of time.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I thank the Acting Chairman for his forbearance and for allowing me an extra minute or two beyond what was provided, but it was to give the public much of the information that it does not get from parliamentary questions, which is a result of the Government's effort to withhold information from the public.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for introducing this Bill. The issue of Irish Water and the unjust water tax has not gone away, nor will it. As much as the Government would like to sweep its failures and those of Irish Water under the carpet, the people are not going to let that happen, and there are failures. The Government has come under significant public pressure on the issue of water charges. It has been forced to introduce the proposed lower rates, which is not something that it wanted to do but about which it had no choice. The protests keep on coming. This is all because the situation reverts back to one basic right, namely, the human right of free access to the provision of clean, fresh water and an adequate sewerage system.

Thankfully, the Bill allows us to debate this issue yet again and to give a voice to the hundreds of thousands of families that the Government so desperately tries to ignore. Election time will come, though, and ignoring the people will no longer be possible. We have heard a great deal of talk about democratic revolution, but there has been no such revolution in the Dáil. The democratic revolution is on the streets and at the ballot box by ordinary people who say that enough is enough. The continuing trends in the polls show this.

Sinn Féin supports the need for the issues in this Bill to be debated. Therefore, we believe that it should be allowed to proceed to Committee Stage. The Bill has a number of points of merit although, obviously, some of them are now outdated, given the fact that it has been on the Order Paper for a while.

First, there is no question but that the board of Irish Water, as a body that attracts so much public attention, should be subject to freedom of information requests. If the Government is stubborn enough to continue supporting the existence of Irish Water, the least it can do is afford the citizens of this State the courtesy of ensuring that the activities of the board are carried out in an open and transparent manner. I am glad that such requests can now be lodged.

In regard to the establishment of a fully independent water services ombudsman to deal with the performance and operations of Irish Water, it goes without saying that he or she would be a busy ombudsman. Sinn Féin has called for Irish Water to come within the remit of the public service Ombudsman. We believe that this office is best placed to deal with such complaints and issues that arise.

Although Sinn Féin supports the passage of this Bill to Committee Stage, I support the comments made earlier by my colleague, Deputy Brian Stanley. Our party position is clear. In government, we would abolish Irish Water and scrap the water charges. The Bill before the House today provides that Irish Water be held in public ownership and be only transferred to private ownership or public-private partnership via a referendum. Sinn Féin believes this commitment needs to be stronger. There must be a referendum to enshrine public ownership of water into the Constitution. The right to water and for that service to be protected deserves constitutional protection.

I note the proposed provision in this Bill relating to an insurance policy. Citizens have been turned into consumers by this Government. Therefore, the Government and Irish Water should have the courtesy of affording them the rights afforded to consumers. If this were the case, Irish Water should be responsible for the repair of leaks and the replacement of damaged infrastructure. I do not believe there is a need for an insurance-type system. What this farce has already cost the taxpayer to date is truly shocking. The spend on fixing leaks and replacing old pipes was measly compared to the amount wasted on the Irish Water call centre, consultants and other costs. An additional €539 million was also wasted on meters that are now redundant. The total amount wasted to date is approximately €800 million. Only €40 million was spent in each of the past four years on leaks and replacing pipes. Proper use of that €800 million would ensure double the mains replacement programme for 16 years. Imagine the difference that would make to water conservation.

The Government needs to lead, to stop offering snivelling excuses and drop the line that it is all the fault of Fianna Fáil. It can start by allowing this Bill to pass Second Stage and, thus, allow proper, in-depth debate on Committee Stage. As I said earlier, although Sinn Féin will be supporting the passage of this legislation to Committee Stage, this does not take away from the fact that the whole concept of the imposition of household water charges is wrong and that the privatisation of public utilities, such as water, is even more so.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

There are a group of young people in the Visitors Gallery today whom, I would wager, know more about water conservation than do many Deputies in this Chamber. They know that water is not a free commodity and that it is a finite resource. They also understand that someone has to pay. I want to speak about what our young people are interested in, including the 104,000 new jobs created since 2012; the decrease in unemployment from an all-time high of 15.1% to 9.8% and the increase in tourism numbers to 8.9%. I would like the Opposition to come into this Chamber and talk up our country instead of talking it down and to offer solutions on how we can build on the recovery of this country. That is the real story about which we should be speaking today.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

We are talking about Irish Water.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

Instead, we are speaking about the old chestnut which the Opposition loves to wheel out, namely, Irish Water.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a Private Members' Bill.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

Can we start being real in this Chamber? Can we engage in real politics and try to find real solutions that will help people create more jobs and assist our SMEs?

Irish Water is already subject to the freedom of information legislation. What Deputy Mattie McGrath believes is not covered is unclear. In regard to the provision requiring that Irish Water be a fully publicly owned entity which is prohibited from entering into a public-private partnership, Irish Water is already a publicly owned utility. The Government is committed to its remaining in public ownership. Furthermore, to address public concerns regarding privatisation by a future Government legislation has been introduced requiring that any such proposal be put to a plebiscite of the people. I do not propose to waste my breath any further discussing whether it will be privatised. We all know that will never happen.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Aer Lingus.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Frank Feighan)

Deputy McGrath, please allow Deputy Mitchell O'Connor to continue without interruption.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

In regard to the establishment of an independent ombudsman, the Commission for Energy Regulation has been given statutory responsibility for protecting the interests of customers in this area, as it does in respect of the electricity and gas companies, about which there is no concern in regard to privatisation. The Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, requires Irish Water to produce a customer handbook outlining the minimum requirement for customer service standards it will provide to its customers. The Water Services Act 2014 makes statutory provision for the investigation by the CER of customer complaints not resolved by Irish Water. This will be similar to the service operated by the commission in the gas and electricity markets. In addition, the CER will engage with Irish Water and the Environmental Protection Agency on the development of complementary complaints processes to ensure that customers with complaints or queries are directed in an efficient manner to the appropriate organisation. Surely, all the aforementioned protections to be provided by the Commission for Energy Regulation are what Deputy McGrath is seeking in an independent ombudsman. The Government has put forward an affordable model that will ensure our water security into the future.

We need to conserve water and improve conservation practices. As a former school principal, I recall the introduction of water charges for schools prior to the election of this Government in 2011. Schools received no additional funding to pay water charges. They simply got on with it. Education management taught children how to conserve water in the school and in their homes. As I said earlier, our young people understand the need for water conservation. I ask that, as responsible elected representatives, we lead and educate our people about the fact that water is a finite resource.

I remind the people of Dún Laoghaire and other people living in this country that a water conservation grant of €100 is available. Further details in this regard are available at www.watergrant.ie.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice and Equality (Deputy Aodhán Ó Ríordáin)

I too welcome the students in the Visitors Gallery, including the teachers, some of whom I recognise. I thank all Members who have contributed to this debate. As I outlined earlier, the Government cannot support the Bill tabled by Deputy McGrath. Although I appreciate the sentiment behind the Bill, as I have already stated, the legislative and policy framework put in place by this Government, in particular the Water Services Act 2014, provides for what is proposed in the Bill.

The Government is in favour of measures that lead to increased transparency in relation to public administration generally and as such Irish Water has been subject to freedom of information legislation since 17 July 2013.

The Commission for Energy Regulation has been given the role of independent economic regulator for Irish Water and its primary statutory purpose is to ensure the protection of customers' interests. This role is underpinned in statute. Section 39(1) of the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 provides that the commission shall perform its functions in a manner that best serves the interests of customers of Irish Water.

The CER has also been assigned a specific statutory role under the Water Services Act 2014 in respect of resolving disputes that may arise between Irish Water and its customers. This will involve a similar service to that operated by the Commission for Energy Regulation for the gas and electricity sectors, with the CER investigating customer complaints which Irish Water has not resolved. The creation of a dedicated independent ombudsman for resolving disputes related to Irish Water, as suggested in this Bill, is, therefore, a duplication of effort and expense.

Reference was made to the suggestion that the establishment of Irish Water could be a precursor to privatisation. This issue has been raised before and it has been shown to be without foundation. The Government has made it clear that Irish Water will remain in public ownership. In fact, this is laid down in statute in the Water Services (No. 2) Act 2013 and the Water Services Act 2014. Any change in the State's ownership of Irish Water would require the approval of both Houses of the Oireachtas and, subsequently, any proposal would have to be put to the people via a plebiscite before it could proceed.

A final proposal relating to insurance is contained in this Bill. Irish Water is not statutorily required to provide any type of insurance policy for customers in terms of leaks or damaged infrastructure. Responsibility for repair and maintenance of the internal water distribution system from the main stopcock to the house and within the house rests with the homeowner, as set out in the Water Services Act 2007. This approach is similar to the position in respect of other utility services such as gas or electricity. Changing the legal responsibility for internal repairs and maintenance would have significant implications from a financial perspective for Irish Water and could have wide-ranging impacts for other utility service providers. Therefore, I cannot agree with the proposal on this issue.

The Government is confident that the strategic national approach Irish Water has taken to all aspects of water services provision in Ireland will deliver benefits for the customer. It is evident that Irish Water has many challenges to confront and resolve. This will be done with the aim of providing a world-class service to the customer and this remains at the centre of the Government's reform programme. As has been clearly outlined today, the Government has already put in place the measures required to address the objectives of this Bill in a comprehensive manner. On that basis the Government is opposing the Bill.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am disappointed that neither the Minister for the Environment, Community and Local Government, Deputy Kelly, nor the Minister of State, Deputy Coffey, are in the House. They are the two Ministers who debated the matter after taking over from the former Minister, Mr. Hogan. They could have turned up today but would not turn up. I am disappointed to have the Bill rejected out of hand. I am not saying the Bill is perfect or that there are things in the Bill that did not get moved on. The Bill was drafted last September. We have a lottery system and that is why the Government has half-baked freedom of information provisions. As we found out this week, it is not a fully fit-for-purpose vehicle. People cannot get the information.

I, too, wish to issue a céad míle fáilte to na daltaí in the Gallery. I welcome the young people and the old people as well on their visit to the House today.

As I said earlier, my Bill was put together with my own resources, some of my staff and some help from the Bill's office. It was a humble effort at trying to rein in the beast of Irish Water. That is what it has become; it is nothing short of a bad nasty beast. It was an attempt to rein in the ability of Irish Water to further mire hundreds of thousands of households in repair-related debt, which could run into multiples of the annual charge. Figures of €120 per hour and €170 per hour have been mentioned. We have heard so much about the Government's free first fix. When the original Bill was being debated the first fix was going to be free. Where has that gone now? No one trusts a word the Government has said on the matter. No one has any faith in Irish Water anymore. I am not attacking the staff in there, but no one trusts the organisation. It is the wrong model. It was set up with a contrived effort involving vast amounts of wasted money.

The Minister of State referred to the 2007 Act and the various powers of the CER. We have seen how the Commission for Energy Regulation has been a dismal failure with the ESB, gas and control of prices. What faith can we have in that organisation or that it will be able to control the prices of Irish Water? No one is looking at the costs to private business, including farmers, shopkeepers, hairdressers, publicans or those running funeral parlours or beauty salons and all kinds of shops. They are going to be left carrying the can because, as Deputy Cowen said earlier, Irish Water cannot tell us anything, either through the Minister, the Taoiseach or when its representatives come to the House for their clinics. That is a waste of time. They come to the audio-visual room every Wednesday but cannot tell us how many people got bills or how many have paid bills. They cannot tell us anything. We ask questions but they say we are asking political questions. They must be forgetting that Leinster House is at the top of the line and is a political house, elected by the people. Their visit to the House every Wednesday is a charade. They book up the room, which is very busy, while we have to wait eight weeks to book it. It is nonsense. It is booked under the name of the Minister, Deputy Kelly. They do not even have the courage to book it under their name. When we were here first they came but did not tell us that they were here. They did not even notify us that they were here. That is the charade under way.

The Minister of State said that the CER was robust enough to deal with disputes and that there would be no need for an ombudsman. It is not robust enough to deal with disputes. It has enough to do. As I said, the Ombudsman saw a 15% increase in his workload last year before ever Irish Water came around. Irish Water will have tens of thousands of complaints because people are getting wrong bills, double bills and wrongly addressed bills: confusion reigns. It is simply farcical. The company is going to get bigger and bigger. In time the Government will have to set up an ombudsman to deal with Irish Water, or else scrap it. We should put down the beast humanely.

The Minister of State also referred to ownership and the Water Services Act. He said it was a subsidiary of Bord Gáis Éireann and that there were shares that could not be sold or disposed of. That is hollow coming from the Minister of State who voted last week, not ten days ago, to sell off the final 25% stake of Aer Lingus. It has no credibility. What about all the robust proposals in the Water Services Act 2013? It is simply not credible. The public knows that and everyone knows that. The Government can say what it likes but no one believes it, and no one believes the Minister of State either.

The Minister of State also referred to the cost of repairs and that he could not look at any such scheme, in spite of the promise about the first fix during the debate on the original Bill under his predecessor. There was a first-fix-free policy. Now, the Government is saying it cannot entertain that because it would cost too much and would bring an incredible cost on Irish Water. Those in Irish Water do not want any costs; they want all the cream but they do not want any of the sour milk. That is what I see. They want everything their way and they want to screw the people for what they can get off them.

The Minister of State said that the other utilities would look for the same. The other utilities were set up time out of mind. The ESB has a proud legacy because of what it has delivered in this country. It was able to send people over to England and other countries during storms to help out. They will come out within an hour to fix a leak or if something bursts. Irish Water has inherited and taken over all the sewer systems but it is refusing point-blank to allow the county councils to enter any property which it maintains is quasi-public. This is the case even though the pipes were built and laid by county council workers when they were building houses or taking in charge private schemes. A public pipe running through property with a way-leave for the county council has now been transferred to Irish Water, yet Irish Water will not replace it. Only one such job has been done in my county. In fact, it is being done this morning at 4 Queen Street, Clonmel. I know of others in Ard na Gréine, Barron Park and all over Clonmel as well as the rest of the constituency that will not be touched. This is being done because of the intervention of the mighty man himself, the Minister, who could not be here today. He is probably opening a telephone box in Rearcross but he does not have the respect to come to the House. He goes down to Bansha to announce a bus shelter and then he goes somewhere else. He went to the workers in South Tipperary General Hospital last week. He promised to do something for them four years ago but he did zilch for them.

He intervened the other day. He visited a house. Then he contacted the county council and got all of them to get up there with machinery and a private company to free the drains at 4 Queen Street, Clonmel. If that is not bully-boy tactics and interference I do not know what is. He should clarify the issue once and for all. Irish Water should be made to take on its responsibility to free these sewers, just as the county council was willing, ready and able to do previously. Now, the council workers are put in the invidious situation whereby they cannot do it anymore. There are tears. Elderly people have noxious fumes in their houses and back yards. We saw what can happen with sewer fumes this week and we sympathise with the families of those workers.

This Minister wants to pick and choose. He wants to say that he inherited this from the former Minister, big Phil, who is now the Commissioner. He is adding to his pension scheme in Europe but he left a mess behind him. I thank the other Deputies for their support and suggestions. As they said, the Government will not get away with this. Some time soon either this Government or the next Government will realise that this is a failed entity. The Government will have simply to abandon it or sail it out on a ship somewhere and let it sink.

The Minister of State referred to the river basin plan. No river basin committees have even been set up since they were amalgamated and since the Government disposed of local democracy. The Government simply banished it.

That is another downright misleading statement. The Minister of State also referred to the quality customer service line for which the Government pays, but it is the customer who pays to get through and listen to an answering machine, get no answers and wait on the phone for hours. That is some quality service. It is a con job of the highest order. When the customer phones the customer service line, he or she pays for it and that is supposed to be quality customer service. My goodness, the Government must think people are right fools altogether. The Minister of State keeps coming back, insultingly, to the fact that we were a desert, a barren land without water infrastructure, that we had nothing. He keeps repeating the stupid remark that the water stopped at county boundaries, as if the pipes had stop-cocks, which was never the case. If that were the case, we would not have a drop of water in this House as the water comes in from Poulaphouca and other places in County Wicklow. It is downright balderdash that would not be put through by a kindergarten but the Government thinks it can do it due to its spin doctors.

There is also the falsity of what was said about saving €80 million on the project at Ringsend. The Minister of State should tell the truth. The Government has not changed it. It is a different project to the one that was designed, planned and costed. That is downright deceitful. Does the Government think people are fools altogether? The consultants put this story into cosy talk and put a cosy spin on it and think people will believe it. Live horse and one will get grass. The Government wants to feed us all with some kind of manna. Last week I spoke about the lead in the pipes. It would be more important to take out the fluoride. The Government would put something else in the pipes if it could to put us all into a soft coma so that we might think the Government is worth re-electing, that it is a stable Government that has turned the economy around. Enda the almighty. Alan the great man. Alan the messiah from Tipperary with his chest out - John F. Kennedy. His legacy will be an Irish water system that is fit for purpose, we will all have water and we will even have champagne after the election when the Government is returned. The Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, and the Minister of State, Deputy Paudie Coffey, could not even come to the House to debate the issue.

The Taoiseach was not in the House to debate the Siteserv issue and neither was the Tánaiste. The Minister of State, Deputy Michael Ring, went into a Garda station to report a missing man, a missing Taoiseach. He could not be found. He gave a description about his appearance and where he might be found, such as opening a bottle bank in Mayo or somewhere with his thumbs up or taking a selfie or over licking Angela Merkel and those people. That is where he could be found, but he will not be found here. However, he will be found out in Mayo, in Castlebar and all over the country. The Minister of State, Deputy Ó Ríordáin, will be found out too for the fraud that he is. Those frauds are milking the people and crushing them into the ground and giving an issue such as this sustenance, more oil, fumes and consultants.

The Tánaiste, Deputy Burton, announced this week that €637,000 would be spent on IT consultants to get back the €100 people never asked for. It is nonsense to do that instead of taking €100 off the bill. Conservation grant how are you. There is not a litre of conservation asked for or recommended. It is just a pure Mills and Boon farce. As soon as the Government changes it and puts it somewhere else the better, and allow people the dignity and respect they should have and give the respect to the county council officials and workers who have always supplied the water and they did not have a big stop valve stopping water in Dún Laoghaire or coming into the bounds of Dublin. Otherwise, we would all be here with our tongues out. The Government’s tongue will be out before it is finished because the people will put it out. Go raibh maith agat and good riddance.

Question put.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Frank Feighan)

In accordance with Standing Order 117(1A), the division is postponed until immediately after the Order of Business on Tuesday next, 16 June 2015.

Dáil Éireann debate - Friday, 12 Jun 2015

Water Services (Amendment) (No. 2) Bill 2014: Second Stage [Private Members]

Dáil Éireann debate -
Friday, 12 Jun 2015