Topical Issue Debate

Mortgage to Rent Scheme Eligibility

Deputy Pat Deering

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for selecting this issue and the Minister of State with responsibility for housing for his attendance. It is an important issue.

Unfortunately, one of the legacy issues of the Celtic tiger economy is the many people in mortgage distress and mortgage arrears. Recent figures show that 38,000 are in mortgage arrears for two years or more, a very difficult situation for them. The priority of Government policy, with which everybody agrees, has been to keep people in their own homes in so far as possible. That is important.

I welcome the changes made in recent weeks to the mortgage-to-rent scheme which is one of the best methods of ensuring people can remain in their homes when they get into mortgage difficulties. The changes announced, including the flexibility provided for and the increase in the valuation, have been helpful in that regard. However, there are still anomalies in the system. I can offer the example of a case brought to my office recently, although there are a number of cases that must addressed in this context. The individual concerned, Jason, has a wife and two children. He borrowed in excess of €300,000 to buy a house that is now worth €150,000. It is an ordinary, three bedroom semi-detached house. He ticks almost all of the boxes in respect of eligibility for the mortgage-to-rent scheme. He owns the house and the valuation is under €180,000. The one box he does not tick is that he does not qualify for social housing. Previously, he had a job that guaranteed an income of €60,000 per year. Unfortunately, like many others, he lost his job, but, unlike some, he had the get up and go to find another job, although it only gives him an income of €35,000 per year. The cut-off point for eligibility for the mortgage-to-rent scheme and social housing qualification in County Carlow is €27,500 for a man, his wife and two children. Therefore, he does not qualify for the mortgage-to-rent scheme. It is the only box he does not tick. There must be flexibility on an individual basis in this regard. He believes that if he were to give up his job, stay at home and become a burden on the State, he would qualify for the scheme and thereby let it look after him. He was prepared to try to get his life going again, but he is not in a position to pay his mortgage, although he is in a position to stay in his home, if possible. If he loses his house in the morning which is an unfortunate possibility for him, he will have to rent private accommodation. It is impossible to rent a property in the Carlow region for less than €700 per month and he would not be in a position to pay that amount.

I urge the Minister to examine the mortgage-to-rent scheme again. There are anomalies in the system that must be addressed. This is one that could be addressed on an individual basis. I am not asking the Minister to open the doors completely for social housing qualification, but where somebody is in mortgage difficulty and qualifies in every other regard for the mortgage-to-rent scheme other than in this respect, it should be reviewed.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Paudie Coffey)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. There are two mortgage-to-rent schemes in operation through my Department. There is a scheme whereby a local authority can acquire ownership of properties with unsustainable local authority mortgages, thus enabling the household to remain in their home as a social housing tenant. The other scheme provides for an approved housing body, AHB, to acquire ownership of a property with an unsustainable private mortgage, which also enables the household to remain in their home as a social housing tenant. It is the latter scheme to which the Deputy is referring. This scheme is designed to assist families with income difficulties whose mortgages are unsustainable and where there is little or no prospect of a significant change in circumstances in the foreseeable future.

To be eligible for the AHB mortgage-to-rent scheme, a household must have had their mortgage position deemed unsustainable under the mortgage arrears resolution process, agree to the voluntary surrender of their home, be in negative equity anddeemed eligible for social housing in accordance with section 20 of the Housing (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act, 2009. In that context, income thresholds that are applied to be eligible for the scheme are the income thresholds for social housing generally. It is important to remember that the income thresholds for social housing which can be up to €35,000 per year for a household with a single adult are based on net household income after taxes and social insurance payments. In addition, there are further allowances for each child. These amounts are in line with the general housing needs assessment guidelines applicable to all social housing tenants to be deemed eligible for social housing and are considered reasonable in respect of the income bracket targeted by the scheme.

While we are making progress with it, it has been acknowledged that take-up of this scheme overall has been slow. In that context, the Government recently announced changes to the mortgage-to-rent scheme as part of a broader package of measures to deal with mortgage arrears. The changes being made will make the scheme more flexible and accessible and are designed to enable more properties to qualify for the scheme. The key measure proposed in this package is that the valuation threshold for properties will be increased in line with the acquisition thresholds for social housing generally. These new measures are due to be in place by end of this month.

Deputy Pat Deering

The Minister of State makes the same points I made in my initial contribution. I very much welcome the changes to the scheme announced a few weeks ago, particularly with regard to the valuation. They have been helpful.

The Minister of State referred to the financial eligibility criteria. In the case I outlined the individual in question would be better off staying at home on the dole, as he would qualify for the scheme. He is barely over the threshold, which is €27,500 in the area in which he lives. He has a wife and two children and they live in a three bedroom house. The sum of €27,500 is a hard and fast figure and there is no flexibility in that regard in the area in which he lives. He has no choice and I am sure he is not alone in this situation. There must be flexibility on the figure of €27,500, or whatever the figure might be for any other individual, depending on the area involved. The most simple solution is for this man to be able to stay in his home, look after his children and pay what he can to a voluntary housing body or the local authority, as the case may be. It would be far cheaper for the State if he could do this rather than have him give up work, stay at home and qualify in that way. I ask that section 20 of the housing Act be reviewed to take account of the issues I have outlined where the mortgage is unsustainable, as it is in this and other cases, in order to qualify for social housing.

Deputy Paudie Coffey

The operation of the scheme is closely monitored on an ongoing basis by the Department and the Housing Agency which are also in regular contact with approved housing bodies and financial institutions. To date, a total of 2,865 cases have been submitted under the approved housing bodies mortgage-to-rent scheme. Of these, 2,036 were deemed ineligible or terminated during the process. Of the remaining 829 cases submitted, 97 have been completed. In a further 44 the sale could not be agreed. A total of 115 are with the lenders, with the remaining 573 being actively progressed.

There has been an increase in the number of cases being progressed through the scheme in recent months. The new protocol endeavours to ensure certainty is provided as early as possible in the process to minimise uncertainty and late withdrawals from the scheme. In addition, the recently announced package of measures will bring more flexibility to the scheme and enable more properties to qualify. In that context, I expect approximately 250 mortgage-to-rent transactions to be completed this year.

I am keeping the scheme under review. This will give me an opportunity to address some of the Deputy's concerns and give them due consideration.

Northern Ireland Issues

Deputy Brendan Smith

I appreciate that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, is present to take this important issue.

RTE did a good public service with its “Prime Time” documentary on collusion between British State forces and loyalist paramilitary groups. Most of us would probably have been aware of most of the incidents outlined in the programme but the actual screening and presentation of those horrific events was absolutely chilling. Monday night's documentary followed on from the recent BBC “Panorama” programme “Britain's Secret Terror Deals”, which examined the extent of British security forces’ collusion with republican and loyalist paramilitary groups. Among the cases covered in Monday's documentary were the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, the murder of Pat Finucane, the murderous behaviour of the Glennane gang and the atrocities of the Mount Vernon UVF gang. These documentaries follow on from the very valuable work carried out by Anne Cadwallader in her book Lethal Allies and the very important comments of the former Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland, Nuala O’Loan, who spoke on the BBC and RTE documentaries about the hundreds of deaths that happened in Northern Ireland as a result of security forces collusion. Those comments are very significant coming from a retired distinguished official.

We need in this House, at an early date, a full and comprehensive debate on all of these issues involving the treacherous behaviour of British State forces in collusion with groups classed as republican and loyalist paramilitaries. The information that has become available clearly demonstrates the absolute need to establish a full and independent investigation involving all the groups, and this is a necessary part of the reconciliation process.

“Panorama”, “Spotlight” and RTE documentaries expose the level of violence unleashed through British State collusion with vicious paramilitary groups. It is imperative that those involved be brought to justice. We need a full inquiry into this policy, including the release of all papers relating to the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. For real reconciliation, the full truth must be revealed. Monday night's documentary was a harrowing reminder of the depth and scale of the carnage that was visited upon citizens in the North and in the Republic by men and women of violence. The horror of the troubles inflicted by the provisional IRA, other republican paramilitaries, loyalist paramilitaries and agents of the British security forces must be fully exposed and those involved must be brought to justice.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Táim fíor-bhuíoch don Leas-Cheann Comhairle as an seans a thabhairt dom labhairt ar an ábhar tábhachtach seo. Táim an-sásta go bhfuil an tAire, an Teachta Charlie Flanagan, anseo linn.

Monday's RTE documentary on collusion brought into sharp focus the shameful role of the British State, from its highest political level, in the planning, ordering and sanctioning of state murder on a massive scale, including against citizens in this State. Much of what it contained was not new. For citizens in the North, collusion has been part of the political landscape for decades. It took 30 years for RTE to make this programme. For many citizens here, it was the first real opportunity to see the reality of Britain's dirty war in Ireland. The policy of state-sponsored collusion between British State forces and unionist death squads was part and parcel of British policy.

Successive Irish Governments - any debate here should include this very important issue - failed to uphold the rights of hundreds of Irish citizens who were killed or the thousands more who were injured, imprisoned or tortured as a consequence of British policy. The most obvious examples of this are the 33 victims of the Dublin–Monaghan bombings and the human rights lawyer Pat Finucane. In this State also, there were the deaths of Councillor Eddie Fullerton, Jack Rooney and Hugh Watters - the latter two were killed in Dundalk - and Seamus Ludlow and many others.

Is it not long past time for the Government to make every effort to secure truth and justice for all the families? Will the Government commit to using its full political and diplomatic resources to demand from the British Government the long-denied files on the Dublin-Monaghan bombings and the establishment of the Pat Finucane inquiry. Furthermore, the two governments should proceed with the protocols and establish the bodies as agreed in the Stormont House agreement for dealing with legacy issues. Whatever difficulties exist currently in the institutions are the responsibility of both Governments. The Irish Government should not delay. That means the Irish Government taking leadership on this issue.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The documentary on RTE on Monday night was very welcome following the excellent exposé in the book Lethal Allies by Anne Cadwallader. If the Minister has not read it, I strongly recommend that he do so. The documentary took the viewers through decades of systemic collusion between British State forces and agents of the British State. Reference has been made to republican organisations. There were some agents within those organisations but let us be very clear that the loyalist paramilitary organisations in some cases were reformed by the British State agents. They were controlled by them throughout the decades in question, they were armed by them, they were directed to people's houses, and they were used as a strategic part of the war against republicans, who were resisting their strategy in our country. That is why it is so vital that the Minister, on behalf of our Government, engage robustly with the British Government on the issues that were brought into the public domain last Monday night, but not for the first time.

I am particularly mindful of the case of Eddie Fullerton. The amount of intelligence involved in that assassination was remarkable. The failure by on Garda Síochána to investigate that matter properly and the lack of interest on the part of governments since then are truly remarkable. I will return to this matter in the next few days. I cannot think of any other jurisdiction in Europe where the assassination of a much-loved elected representative by state agents would be met with complete disinterest and apathy for so many years. I hope the documentary will remind the Government of its responsibilities in the case of Eddie Fullerton and all those others who lost their lives at the hands of the British State.

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Charles Flanagan)

This week's RTE documentary, which I watched, presented a shocking account of allegations of collusion that spanned over three decades. In the first instance, my thoughts are with the families and relatives of those who were murdered in these events and for whom the documentary must have been deeply upsetting. The hurt caused by their loved ones being murdered in such vicious circumstances is compounded by the knowledge that elements of the British security forces colluded in the perpetration of such callous crimes. That collusion occurred during the Troubles between British State forces and paramilitaries is a matter of public record. However, concerns remain that the extent and scale of such collusion is not accepted.

Successive Irish Governments have raised the issue of collusion with the British Government; we continue to do so, including in regard to a number of individual cases of long-standing concern, such as the Dublin-Monaghan bombings and the case of the late solicitor Pat Finucane. I have raised both of these cases on a number of occasions with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland and have done so again since Ms Villiers, MP, was reappointed to that office a few weeks ago. I expect that these concerns will also be discussed when the Taoiseach meets Prime Minister Cameron in London tomorrow.

With regard to the Dublin and Monaghan bombings, the Government continues to press the British Government to respond in a positive way to the reasonable demand of the all-party motions passed in this House in 2008 and 2011 that an independent international judicial figure be given access to all material held by the British Government on these terrible atrocities. The Secretary of State is actively considering this matter and I hope we will see some progress being made in this regard in the near future. In 2001, it was accepted by both governments at Weston Park that certain cases from the past remained a source of grave public concern, particularly those giving rise to serious allegations of collusion by the security forces in each of our jurisdictions.

Both governments at that time committed to undertake a thorough investigation of allegations of collusion in the cases of the murders of Chief Superintendent Harry Breen, Superintendent Bob Buchanan, Pat Finucane, Lord Justice and Lady Gibson, Robert Hamill, Rosemary Nelson and Billy Wright.

This remains a matter of serious concern to the Government and indeed more generally to the people. More than 3,500 people died during the Troubles. The suffering of their relatives and friends endures to this day. There is no hierarchy of loss or grief for all these families. As part of the Government's approach to finding a better way of dealing with the legacy of the past, we will continue to work on the implementation of a comprehensive framework for dealing with the legacy of the past, as envisaged in the Stormont House Agreement.

The full implementation of the provisions of the agreement relating to the setting up of the institutions of the past remains a priority for this Government. These institutions include an historical investigations unit to take forward investigations into Troubles related deaths as well as an independent commission on information retrieval to enable victims and survivors to seek and privately receive information about Troubles related deaths. A measure of good progress has been made on the setting up of these institutions which will assist all victims, including the victims of collusion, in their quest for truth and justice.

Deputy Brendan Smith

I thank the Minister for his reply. We know that the day of the Dublin-Monaghan bombings was the day of the greatest carnage during the period known as the Troubles. On that day, we witnessed the death of 33 innocent people and injuries caused to 300 innocent people. In replies to parliamentary questions I have consistently tabled, the Minister has indicated very strongly to me that he has raised at every opportunity with the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, the need for the British Government to respond positively to the unanimous motions passed in this House in May 2008 and 2011. I had the opportunity to speak on both occasions when those motions were put before this House. They requested the British Government to give an eminent independent judicial figure access to the papers and files pertaining to the Dublin-Monaghan bombings. It is reprehensible that the British Government over so many years has not responded to the unanimous request of a sovereign Parliament for access to those papers. As the Minister said and as other Members and I have often said in the House, the very least the victims of the Troubles - the victims of those desperate atrocities - deserve is the truth. It behoves every government and every public agency to ensure everything is done to advance towards achieving the truth for those victims.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I thank the Minister for his response but I must say respectfully that it is not good enough simply to raise these issues with the British Government. Imagine if it emerged that the Government in England had authorised the killing of a human rights lawyer, councillors or other politicians or hundreds of citizens in Scotland. Imagine what would happen if that emerged? That is what happened here. It is now a matter of record. The Minister, the British Prime Minister and everyone knows it. The Government has a very clear responsibility to put in place a strategy. I have asked the Taoiseach and Minister numerous times to bring together our international friends and use our diplomatic capacity to get the British Government to do what it is obliged to do under the Good Friday Agreement and other agreements. Even if our Government was not a co-equal guarantor of the Good Friday Agreement, it still has a responsibility to act on these matters. However, the Government is a co-equal guarantor and it must act accordingly.

I also ask the Minister to facilitate a meeting between the Taoiseach and the relatives in the justice support group and ask him whether he will commit to supporting a debate in the Dáil before the summer recess dedicated to the issue of collusion. As the Minister noted in his remarks, the Stormont House Agreement contains propositions for institutions to be put in place, including the historical investigations unit and other commissions, to deal with legacy issues. There is no reason the two governments cannot proceed to fully implement those proposals.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The difficulty is that the British Government has never acknowledged the full extent of its role in the conflict. This was alluded to in the documentary and since then. The British Government has been dragged kicking and screaming - sometimes after decades of investigation - into acknowledging some incidents where it was responsible. That is the missing element. It has been the missing element in the peace process and it is certainly the missing element in the Minister's engagement with the British Government. The Government is co-guarantor of these various agreements. It is not a silent partner or minority stakeholder or shareholder. It is long overdue for it to have a frank and open conversation with the British Government to acknowledge the full extent of its role. This involved controlling and arming loyalist paramilitaries throughout all the decades of the conflict in targeted murders and assassinations of innocent civilians, human rights lawyers, GAA officials, Sinn Féin elected representatives and so on. That is what we are talking about. The British Government has never accepted its full responsibility and the Minister has never ensured it does. Will the Minister do this and will there be a debate before the summer recess on the issue of British state collusion? Will the Minister look at an extensive and comprehensive international examination of these matters?

Deputy Charles Flanagan

No one who is prepared to deal in any objective way with the facts can be in any doubt about the seriousness and gravity of collusion and the content of that programme and others mentioned by Deputy Smith. I do not dispute anything that has been said by Deputy Smith or Deputy Adams about this issue. The wounds inflicted by collusion, which threaten to destroy trust in the state's most fundamental responsibility, namely, protecting its citizens, are deep and slow to heal. For many, the most serious doubts remain. Where doubts persist, it is difficult to achieve true and lasting reconciliation.

I assure the House that I will continue to raise the issues surrounding the Dublin-Monaghan bombings with the British Government in every possible arena. I do not have a difficulty with any of the points put forward by Deputy Adams in this regard. It is my belief, as I have said before in this House, that such cases must be addressed in a meaningful way if we are to achieve a genuinely reconciled society. In respect of the Pat Finucane case, I recently had the opportunity to meet members of the Pat Finucane Centre. I acknowledge their work. I also had the opportunity recently of meeting representatives from Justice for the Forgotten.

In respect of the Pat Finucane case, the House will be aware that the outcome of a judicial review hearing in the High Court in Belfast is pending. Therefore, I do not wish to comment in detail at this stage. However, I assure the Deputies that the position of the Irish Government remains clear and unambiguous, like that of the family of Mr. Finucane. We want the commitment made by both Governments at Weston Park in 2001 to establish a public inquiry to be honoured in full. We will continue to raise this issue and I expect that the issue will be on the agenda tomorrow when the Taoiseach meets the British Prime Minister. I will have the opportunity over the next few days to raise this issue once again. I acknowledge the recent utterance by the Secretary of State, Theresa Villiers, when she said that she expected progress to be made on this issue. I will keep the House fully informed.

Deputy Adams is right when he says that the Stormont House Agreement provides for new ways to investigate the past and facilitate information recovered for victims and survivors to share their experiences. I agree with Deputy Smith and I acknowledge the support of the Opposition benches in this regard. I assure the Deputies that the Government continues to prioritise the full implementation of the agreement, not least because those who suffered the loss of loved ones or who were themselves victims of violence during the Troubles deserve the best possible means of dealing with the legacy of the past. In this, they continue to have the total commitment and full support of the Government.

Industrial Relations

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I want to raise the issue of the closure of Clerys and the unceremonious dumping of 130 direct employees and some 430 others who worked within the store. The Taoiseach has described the manner in which all this happened as "insensitive" but that is the wrong word. The manner in which all this happened is absolutely scandalous and the righteous anger of the workers and, more broadly, of the public was in plain view outside the store yesterday where workers met to assert their fundamental right to respect at work and to protest at the manner in which Clerys was closed and their livelihoods snatched from them.

As the Tánaiste knows, the workers were given no notice, no explanation and deserved, apparently, no regard or consideration, despite that many of them had given literally their entire working lives to Clerys. What is most scandalous in this whole scenario is that all these events were planned and did not happen by accident. I have heard some say that it would have taken a month, possibly, for management and owners to manoeuvre and choreograph the sequence of events and, more scandalously again, all of this, it seems, was entirely legal. We have a scenario where Gordon Brothers, vulture capitalists from Boston, walk away with their pockets full to the tune of €29 million while workers and the State are left to pick up the pieces.

I have three specific issues I wish to raise with the Tánaiste. First, for the workers in the here and now, I ask her to outline the situation with regard to the processing of their individual claims, that is, their right to back pay, holiday pay and their redundancy entitlements. Second, as far as I am aware, Natrium Limited, which has acquired Clerys, continues to refuse to meet the workers or their representatives. Third, and most importantly in the long term, will the Tánaiste outline her plans to amend legislation or introduce new legislation to ensure scandals such as this are squarely illegal and workers are fully protected?

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Ceann Comhairle's Office for allowing us to raise this matter. Deputy McDonald has already covered many of the issues I wished to raise. It is extraordinary that people who have given 40 years' service would get less than five minutes' notice, if even that, if they happened to be at work at 5 o'clock on Friday last. If they were not at work, they heard about losing their job through Facebook or via text messages from colleagues. Deputy McDonald was being generous with the timeline she spoke about. This took months to plan. Finance had to be put in place, a sequence of events had to be put in place, professionals had to be appointed, advice had to be sought and paid for - very dearly - to allow the parties to do this, to allow them to circumvent both company and employment law to try to achieve their objectives. I refer in particular to section 224 of the new companies Bill which puts the responsibility of company directors to employees on a par with other duties and makes that responsibility equally enforceable. On the basis of that section, I would ask that the Office of the Director of Corporate Enforcement be asked to look at the sequence of events that led to the scenario that unfolded at 5 o'clock last Friday. In particular, the office should look at the events in the preceding 24 hours, where a company was sold and OCS Operations was put into liquidation with no regard for employees. Surely if the aforementioned section of the Companies Bill is to mean anything, we should be able to utilise it now.

I acknowledge the response of the Department of Social Protection in terms of making officials available to the workers today at Liberty Hall. Will the Tánaiste clarify that those redundancy payments will be dealt with as soon as possible and that the standard delays one would expect will not arise given the very specific circumstances of this case?

Deputy Joe Costello

I too raise the circumstances surrounding the closure of the most famous store in Ireland and the sacking of 460 employees, 130 of whom were employed directly with the remainder employed by concession holders. I am very concerned at the manner in which this closure took place. A company came in, made a sale to another company which then divided its purchase into two legal entities, with a 100% profit being made on one entity and the other going straight into liquidation. This all took place in very secretive circumstances and would have required collusion over a period of months to bring about that legal course of action. It involved both manipulation and exploitation. There was a total lack of concern for the loyal workforce who had provided great service to Clerys for many years.

This matter must be addressed and redressed in a robust fashion. The Tánaiste has already dealt with the first aspect of it, namely, the workers. She has met the workers, along with the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Nash. There has also been engagement with the liquidators and the trade unions representing the workers, including SIPTU and Mandate. The Minister made a team available today in Liberty Hall to deal with the entitlements of the workforce. All that is absolutely essential and is being done expeditiously. The second aspect of this is that we must take whatever steps are necessary to rebalance company law in order that such ruthless vulture capital transactions cannot take place in the future. Clearly the law at present is heavily weighted in favour of the business and employer and leaves the workforce entirely vulnerable.

I note that the Taoiseach has the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, to provide a report to him and I hope that will be done in a very timely fashion. I also hope that any report on dealing with these abominable transactions which were carried out in such an underhand fashion will be forwarded to the company law review group. I also hope that all this will be done expeditiously in order that whatever measures are needed to ensure it does not happen again will be put in place urgently.

Deputy Eamonn Maloney

In common with my colleagues in the House and with the wider public in Dublin and throughout the country, I am appalled at the treatment of the Clerys workers. For many people it is reminiscent of what happened in this city just over 100 years ago. It is nothing short of disgraceful, for want of a better word, and it highlights the shortcomings of our legislation. The people involved were too smart by far in terms of abusing the existing company law in this jurisdiction. Deputies know we cannot rewrite law and make it effective retrospectively so we should not mislead the Clerys workers in this regard.

Fortunately, we should be grateful it is not the sort of case that happens too often here. Notwithstanding that, it highlights that we, as legislators, have to do things that would prevent this sort of thing happening to workers in any industry. It is an appalling situation. I have received representations, as no doubt have all Members of the House. I commend the Tánaiste on the speed with which the Department of Social Protection has dealt with these people who have been dealt a low blow. Everybody believes in loyalty to the place where they work but there was no loyalty shown in this case.

People talk about the iconic building. Some of us who come from a particular political tradition do not associate the building so much with Clerys. Some of us have images of Jim Larkin on the balcony at the top of that building when it was the Imperial Hotel, partly owned by William Martin Murphy. While he may be gone, there is a bit of his legacy hanging around and these people are exercising that legacy.

Minister for Social Protection (Deputy Joan Burton)

I thank the Deputies for raising this very important issue. This is an incredibly difficult time for the staff of Clerys who gave so much to the company and who have been treated appallingly. I hope the business owners involved in these transactions have some sense of business ethics, propriety and fair play, particularly for the workers, the employees of the concessionaires, the concessionaires themselves and the creditors of the company. At first glance, there are many questions to be answered here.

Prior to the termination of employment, there is an entitlement to minimum notice under the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Acts. This basic entitlement was not afforded to the Clerys workers. I consider it imperative that workers are treated properly at all times and that they and their representatives are consulted on matters affecting their employment. It is totally unsatisfactory, inappropriate and unacceptable that entities involved in this transaction did not respect this concept. My Department and the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation will examine whether all aspects of the relevant legislation have been complied with, whether that legislation needs to be strengthened and if so how.

In the first instance, my thoughts are with the workers. I met with several workers this morning at a briefing session hosted by my Department to tell them of the welfare and employment supports we can provide. At briefings of this type, officials from the Department advise the employees who have lost their jobs on the Intreo process, jobseeker payments and redundancy and insolvency entitlements. They also provide information on other schemes, including rent supplement to which they may wish to have recourse. Information is also given on options and assistance available relating to work, and on the short-term enterprise allowance, as well as training and education options.

The Department will ensure that jobseeker's claims will not be delayed pending resolving individual issues on any leave accrued but not yet taken. This means that jobseeker's claims can be paid quickly, subject to usual criteria, and reconciled as required at a future date. The Department is informing its network of local offices in the greater Dublin area of these developments to ensure that claims from affected workers are processed in a speedy and sensitive manner.

I express my gratitude to SIPTU and Mandate for their excellent support in this regard. Normally the services of the Department would be made available on the company's premises, as people will recall with the closure of Mount Carmel Hospital. In this case, as we saw in the pictures, the locks were put on the doors. I am thankful to SIPTU for making its premises available to us near the workers' place of employment and also facilitating the liquidators to be there this morning. A significant number of the workers were there today. This engagement will provide information to all workers, including those employed by concession holders.

The primary focus of my Department at this time is to ensure the efficient and prompt taking of claims for jobseeker's benefit to ensure that the workers get their entitlements at the earliest possible opportunity. In addition to the range of information and advice being provided by the Department of Social Protection, officials from the National Employment Rights Authority and representatives of the liquidators, KPMG, attended to provide information to the affected workers.

A representative of the liquidator has verbally advised the Department of Social Protection that all staff have been made redundant and that P45s will issue this week. I understand it is possible that one or two staff from the payroll area in Clerys may be retained temporarily to assist with the liquidation. The liquidator will seek, on behalf of workers, payment from the insolvency payments scheme in respect of unpaid wages, accrued but untaken leave, and payment in lieu of statutory notice and statutory redundancy under the redundancy payments scheme. It is intended that individual meetings will be held between the liquidator and the workers affected to determine, on an individual basis, the extent of liabilities. The Department will deal promptly with individual applications submitted in respect of the insolvency payments scheme by the liquidator.

I hope that is helpful, particularly to the workers involved, to whom I explained much of this in person this morning. They were accompanied by various union officials and shop stewards who had been working in Clerys. I met people who had more than 40 years' service and whose life was wrapped up in the store. As somebody who is a lifelong customer of the store, as are members of my family, like many Dubliners, I am personally knowledgeable of the kind of service this shop has given. We will seek to ensure workers obtain all their entitlements as quickly as possible.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I acknowledge the interaction between the Department of Social Protection and the workers. I can only imagine how utterly depressing it has been notwithstanding the Tánaiste's efforts for these workers. As she said, many of them have very long service. In truth many of them feel they will not be returning to work and the damage is done. It seems that we cannot in any way recover the lost ground for these workers. They are left with what amounts to the bare minimum. These workers have been placed in a most degrading position. As legislators, we cannot miss the depth of anger and the sense of degradation and disrespect these workers quite correctly feel.

Having acknowledged the efforts and interaction of the Department of Social Protection, I cannot help but be left with the sense that in respect of the bigger picture, the Government is again kicking the can down the road. Albeit that Clerys is different in its specifics, we have been down this road before and not in the dim and distant past. We have seen Waterford Crystal, Vita Cortex, and La Senza. There is a long list of scenarios in which rogue employers very cynically trod all over their workforce. We know the law needs to change.

We need to hear from the Government on when that legislative change will be made to ensure the sense of degradation being experienced by the former Clerys workers will not be visited on any other worker in the future.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Tánaiste for her response. It strikes me that the differences between the domestic economy and the multinational sector are pointed up in this instance. There were reports in the media for many months on the sale of Clerys. If there was speculation about the future of a multinational that employed 600 or so people, the early warning unit of the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Employment would be on top of the issue straightaway in an effort to find out was happening. That does not appear to have happened in this case. It is difficult to get one's head around the fact that this asset, located in the middle of O'Connell Street, is worth approximately €30 million and that the directors and faceless people have walked away, leaving the taxpayer to meet the redundancy bills and workers bereft of dignity and self-respect. Surely, there is some mechanism by which we can put a lean on the money derived from the sale of the building to ensure we get the taxpayers' money back.

The Tánaiste has mentioned that she and her family were customers of Clerys. What has happened again points to the need for an examination of the future of the retail sector. People are not engaging with the retail industry in the same way as they used to. It is too major an employer to be left to the vagaries of technology and online purchasing. We need a retail strategy to protect employment and allow retail space to increase. The following is a quotation from an article in the Irish Independent on 10 May, the author of which I will not name, on the sale of Clerys:

It's good news for the capital: The fact that there is interest in something like Clerys is a good indication of domestic economic recovery.

I again ask what kind of recovery is it?

Deputy Joe Costello

I welcome the Tánaiste's speedy and comprehensive response in meeting the needs of the workers and thank her for providing them with information to enable them to deal expeditiously with their entitlements. I also welcome her commitment to investigate the reason minimum notice was not provided in accordance with the employment Acts. I would like to see that issue fully investigated, with the appropriate sanctions applied.

In the broader context of the collapse of the economy in recent times and given the resultant huge number of impaired assets, many of which have been sold by NAMA to vulture capitalists, there is a danger that a number of these vulture capitalists who are anxious to make a quick buck will re-enter the Irish market, discarding workers and imposing redundancy and welfare payments on the State, rather than meet the costs themselves. For this reason, it is extremely important that we revisit the relevant legislation as rapidly as possible to ensure what has happened in this instance will not happen again. We must also ensure the recovery taking place in the economy is based on respect for the workforce and a sense of fairness. We do not want to witness this type of vulture capitalist approach which is ruthless and profit driven, with no concern for the workforce which makes all businesses in the country profitable. We need to act swiftly in terms of ensuring something of this nature will not recur. We also need to ensure domestic companies and employers will stand apart and make it clear that they will have nothing to do with this practice.

Deputy Eamonn Maloney

I too thank the Tánaiste for her comprehensive response. I agree with her comments on the role of the two trade unions involved in dealing with this debacle. I was outside Clerys yesterday evening for some time and know that the workers genuinely appreciate the role played by the trade unions in this matter. It is lucky for them, despite the shortcomings, that they are members of trade unions. As stated by other speakers, they appreciate the speed with which the Department of Social Protection and the Tánaiste have progressed matters. Whatever about people like me criticising the slow pace at which labour law in this country changes, I am sure we will all agree on the need for change. Many former and current Members of the House criticised the introduction of regulations in the business sector. This case is a classic example of the need for regulation in the context of company law.

Deputy Joan Burton

I again thank Deputies Mary Lou McDonald, Dara Calleary, Joe Costello and Eamonn Maloney for raising this issue. Many of the people concerned have been employed in Clerys for all of their working lives, in many cases alongside family members. Among the group of people I met this morning was a man who had more than 40 years service and who told me that Clerys was his family. We can all appreciate the level of commitment of the staff.

The people who are shamed and disgraced by what has happened in this case are those who took part in the arrangements to do this, not Clerys' workers. Respect for the workers is exceptionally high among the people of Dublin and Ireland. There are many good employers in the country who must be appalled at what has happened to a group of workers in an entirely undeserved way. There has been a huge amount of positive contact between trade unions and employer organisations to ensure we will have a level of decency and regulation to provide workers with decent terms and conditions. Further measures are also being introduced. There is legislation before the Dáil on collective bargaining which has been sought by the trade unions for many decades and that I am confident will have the support of most Members and parties.

The people who should be ashamed of themselves are those who set out to approach this issue in a particularly technical manner. We do not yet know the full details of what happened. We have read in the newspapers about various stratagems that were employed. As I said, we will be examining all of the issues involved. I know that my colleagues, the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Employment, Deputy Richard Bruton, and the Minister of State, Deputy Gerald Nash, will be extremely concerned that legislation introduced by that Department could be used in this way to circumvent people's genuine rights. As Minister for Social Protection, I am concerned about the implications in terms of the social insurance fund, to which everybody who pays PRSI contributes, in order that it will be available when needed. We will be examining this matter to see whether all aspects of the relevant legislation have been complied with and whether that legislation needs to be strengthened.

I agree with Deputy Joe Costello that it is important this not be allowed to happen again. We will have to examine what happened in this case. We will, for example, need to examine the tax position to see whether over-aggressive taxation measures were involved. I have heard it suggested this might have been arranged, perhaps in secret - almost certainly so - over a number of months. I do not know whether that is correct because we do not yet have all of the information. My Department was informed informally today by the mediators that all of the staff had been made redundant and that P45s would issue this week.

Those here who have had some involvement in labour law and this type of situation will know this initial information allows for the issuing of the redundancy notices, all of which are part of a process, in terms of the legislation, in the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation. I undertake that all of the matters will be addressed as quickly as possible in accordance with the law. It is now possible, with all the reforms we have made in the Intreo system, to pay people relatively quickly. That was not always possible, but we can now do that as a result of the new systems. I hope the Department will be able to do this over the next few days.

We will liaise closely with the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, but our Department pays out the redundancy payments. Reference was made to Vita Cortex and other cases. In the case of Vita Cortex, once the Department of Social Protection got the required information and once the relevant requirements were complied with, the workers were paid within a very short period. Hopefully in this case, if the requirements are met as quickly as possible, we can make arrangements to meet the entitlements of the workers in regard to redundancy as quickly as possible.

Animal Diseases

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

I welcome the Minister to the House. I am aware of his commitment to ensuring the transparency and accountability of the Department in regard to BSE. I welcome the clarity he has brought to the detection of a possible case of BSE in my county of Louth. I am aware of how isolated this case is and that its detection indicates the checks and balances in our system are robust and stand up to transparent investigation. This is important because of the huge importance of the beef industry for the country. I understand that of the 139,000 farms we have, over 110,000 are involved in rearing cattle. The beef industry is worth over €2 billion to our economy annually and beef is a hugely valuable export. It is vital the Food Safety Authority remains happy with the standards, processes and procedures in place and that Ireland maintains the most robust standards in ensuring the quality of our beef is second to none and ensures no health issues arise. Will the Minister give us an update on the progress within his Department so far on this important matter?

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

I thank the Minister for coming to the House today to take this question. We all appreciate that the worst news a Minister in the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine can get is the news that some food issue has arisen. The message we can all take from this today is that it is because we have such strict regulation and procedures that an issue like this is picked up. Having looked at some comments in the newspapers, I believe we need to keep repeating that there is zero risk to human health in this regard, because of the excellent systems that have been put in place by many Governments over many years.

The precautionary testing of the cattle turned up this case. This animal would never have got into the food chain. Apart from that, we do not put risk material into the human food chain. Therefore, even if an animal was found subsequently to have had BSE, there would be no risk to human health. It is important that we get the message abroad that we are open for business and that our standards are as high as ever and although there is a possible case of BSE here, we are investigating it through all means available. Please God, the Department will detect the cause of this case, because there are unusual aspects to it.

The positive message from this case is that the check system works and picks up the issues. We are more likely to pick up issues because we have a good check system. The great thing is that nothing escapes and because of that Irish food is probably the safest food of anywhere in the world. Our processes are very good and this case in no way impairs the standard or quality of Irish beef or any other animal product on the market. I look forward to getting an update from the Minister on what has happened in the past week. I am sure he hopes, as I do, that we find the cause. The Minister can then deal with the cause and we can move on.

Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine (Deputy Simon Coveney)

I thank both Deputies for withdrawing their question yesterday and resubmitting it today, because I was in Luxembourg yesterday and was unable to deal with it but I wanted to deal with it personally. I also thank Opposition spokespersons and Deputy O'Dowd for their patience and sensible comments on this issue and for not trying to gain political advantage from it, which would have been counterproductive and unnecessary.

As the House is aware, a cow on a farm in County Louth has tested positive for BSE. I emphasise that the animal was not presented for slaughter and did not enter the food chain. The case was identified through the ongoing surveillance system of the Department. This surveillance system is part of the overall control systems in place to protect the food and feed chain. On the basis of the assessment of these controls and their application by Ireland over a number of years, the OIE, the world animal health organisation, with the agreement of the member country delegates at the general assembly in May 2008, awarded Ireland the category of "controlled risk" for BSE in accordance with Article 11.5.4 of the OIE terrestrial animal health code. These controls have been systematically and rigorously applied over the years.

A series of confirmatory tests are now being undertaken and the final results will be available shortly. If confirmed, this will be the first BSE case found in Ireland since 2013. Prior to that, we had three cases in 2012, three in 2011 and two in 2010. Ireland's BSE surveillance and controls are effective and consistent with legal requirements and best international practice. The identification of this case is proof of that, and this is further evidenced by the dramatic reduction in the prevalence of BSE, from a peak of 333 cases in 2002. While it is disappointing to identify this case now, it is not wholly unexpected that an occasional case of BSE could arise.

In May of this year, Ireland was recognised by the general delegates of the OIE as a country posing a "negligible risk" for BSE in accordance with the 2015 terrestrial animal health code. A country can be recognised as posing a "negligible" BSE risk when, in addition to the continued application of a range of controls, similar to those mentioned earlier, every indigenous case identified was born more than 11 years ago. Unfortunately, should the current case be confirmed as being the classic type of BSE, Ireland would no longer fulfil the requirements of the terrestrial code for "negligible risk status" for BSE. It is likely therefore that Ireland may revert to "controlled risk status" for a further number of years, with the current range of existing controls remaining in place.

The OIE has this week stated that it very much respects the integrity and transparency demonstrated by Ireland in providing preliminary information on this suspect case. It further commends the commitment to the protection of animal and human health as demonstrated by the effectiveness of the ongoing BSE surveillance programme and the controls in place that prevented any part of the animal from entering the human food or animal feed chain.

In accordance with normal procedure, cases of BSE are subject to a full epidemiological investigation. The investigation of this particular case is now under way. While it is recognised that atypical types of BSE may arise sporadically from time to time, in the case of classical type BSE, the risk period for infection is now accepted to be in the first months of life. As the animal in question here was born in 2010, a large part of the epidemiological investigation is focused on events of five to six years ago and may take some time to complete.

The birth cohort, animals born and reared in the herd of birth, around the same time as the positive animal and progeny of the infected animal have been traced and will be removed from the food chain and tested as a precaution.

As a country which exports more than 90% of the beef we produce, we know that our reputation as a producer of safe sustainable beef is paramount and our regulatory and food safety systems are there to provide those assurances. The discovery of this BSE case is evidence of the effectiveness of the controls and surveillance system we have in place and those controls were a key factor in securing market access for Irish beef in many of the new markets in recent years.

As I said last week and the previous week, I have full confidence in our systems. Irish beef is the safest and most sustainable beef in the world and it continues to be, despite the case last week. I look forward to giving further details on the investigation to Deputies who seek it, when it is complete.

Deputy Fergus O'Dowd

The Minister's hands-on approach to such issues provides the necessary leadership and clarity in this matter. I look forward to the circulation by him of further details when they become available to him.

Deputy Éamon Ó Cuív

One of the great benefits of the situation is that it was announced by the Department as a suspected case of BSE right from the beginning and there was not a rumour machine. The information was made known. That proves the processes are in place to pick up any issue that will arise, which is a good thing.

Have the results of the second test come back? I presume that will be the next stage of information, and following that the epidemiological studies will be carried out and over time we might get more clarity on the possible cause. Has the second test proved positive or when will we be likely to get the information?

Deputy Simon Coveney

The tests that are being carried out are not back yet but they should be back shortly, either at the end of this week or the start of next week. People in this House have put the situation into context, which is important. Deputy Ferris, as an Opposition spokesperson, has also been very responsible in terms of how he has responded to the situation as well. The context is that when a country such as Ireland has dealt comprehensively with a historical BSE problem, there will be the odd, isolated case, which is what seems to have happened here. We are now seeking to explain how that happened. It is proof that we have a rigorous testing system that tests every bovine animal over 48 months that dies on a farm in order that we can ensure that if there is any animal with BSE out there, we will find it and it will not find its way through the net. If we do find something, even when it is a preliminary suspected case, we will be upfront, transparent and open about it to all our trade partners, the industry here and to anyone else who is interested. That is what has happened in this case. It is because we have been upfront, for which the World Organisation for Animal Health, OIE, wrote to thank us this week, that we saw the headlines that emerged last week. It is because of that level of transparency that markets for Irish beef are very calm. There has been no impact on beef prices since this happened last week and we are pretty confident that all the new markets we have opened and the ambition we have for growth in those markets this year and into next year can still move ahead as planned. However, let us wait and see what the result of the investigation will be. Openness and transparency are key and that will continue through the process.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 17 Jun 2015