Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jul 2015

Vol. 887 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 12, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Educational Research Centre (Establishment) Order 2015 - back from committee; No. 13, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed recommendation by Dáil Éireann of appointment of a member of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission; No. 14, motion re Personal Insolvency (Amendment) Bill 2014 – Motion to Instruct Committee; No. 15, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the Ombudsman Act 1980 (Section 1A) (No. 2) Order 2015; No. 39, Personal Insolvency (Amendment) Bill 2014 - Order for Report Stage and Report and Final Stages; and No. 40, Children First Bill 2014 - Order for Report Stage and Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that: (1) the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. and adjourn on the adjournment of Private Members’ business which shall be No. 198, motion re social services and support, which shall take place not later than 9.45 p.m. or, in the event a division is in progress at that time, immediately thereafter, and which shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn after 90 minutes; (2) Nos. 12, 13 and 14 shall be decided without debate; (3) the proceedings on No. 15 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 45 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the speech of a Minister or a Minister of State and the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group who shall be called upon in that order shall not exceed five minutes in each case; (ii) the speech of each other Member called upon shall not exceed five minutes in each case; (iii) a Minister or a Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; (4) Report and Final Stages of No. 39 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 8.45 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Justice and Equality; and (5) Report and Final Stages of No. 40 shall be taken today and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion at 9.45 p.m. by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs.

Tomorrow’s business after Oral Questions shall be No. a1, Defence (Amendment) Bill 2015 [Seanad] - Second and Subsequent Stages; and No. 41, Climate Action and Low Carbon Development Bill 2015 - Order for Report Stage and Report and Final Stages.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Second and Subsequent Stages of No. a1 shall be taken tomorrow and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 95 minutes and the following arrangements shall apply: (i) the proceedings on Second Stage shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 70 minutes; the opening speeches of a Minister or a Minister of State and the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group who shall be called upon in that order shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case and such Members may share their time; the speech of a Member of the Others shall not exceed five minutes; a Minister or a Minister of State shall be called upon to make a speech in reply which shall not exceed five minutes; and (ii) the proceedings on Committee and Remaining Stages shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 25 minutes by one question which shall be put from the Chair and which shall, in relation to amendments, include only those set down or accepted by the Minister for Defence.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are six proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 12, 13 and 14 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15 agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 39 agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed. We are again witnessing the unnecessary guillotining of debate on important Bills, in this case, the Personal Insolvency (Amendment) Bill 2014, on which essentially there will be about an hour's debate, followed by the Children First Bill 2014 on which there will also be about an hour's debate this evening. What we have been witnessing is the very bad handling of Dáil business in the past three to four months. In the early stages, from April and May onwards, very little legislation passed through the House. In fact, the House did not sit for quite a number of weeks. It sat for only a day and a half a week after the May bank holiday. I think I counted about 17 sitting days over a long period of time. If we go back over the last six months, the amount of time the Dáil has sat has not been very impressive, particularly in dealing with legislation. We then get to the end stage of the session and, in the past two to three weeks, we have been witnessing the ramming through of Bill after Bill, with debate being guillotined. This throws out the window all of the reforms that were meant to happen in how legislation was to be considered and dealt with in the House. It undermines the status of the House in terms of its credibility in dealing with legislation of importance. It is regrettable that the Government has ordered business in the House in this manner, with very late sittings, up to midnight in some cases, for the last few weeks. It a very shoddy piece of work.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Of course, as today is Bastille Day, the guillotine is out. The Government proposes to guillotine the debate on any number of Bills this week as it races towards the finish line of this Dáil session. I oppose the guillotining of the debate on Report Stage of the Personal Insolvency (Amendment) Bill 2014. What we have seen is four years of foot-dragging in reaching the final stages of the Bill that supposedly is to remove the bank veto. This is important legislation which merits adequate time. Some 29 amendments have been tabled since Committee Stage, some of which are quite detailed and which potentially will lead to substantive changes to the Bill. However, the Government has allocated less than two hours for the debate. If we do the maths, that means about four minutes have been allocated to deal with each individual amendment, which is clearly insufficient. In fact, it is more than insufficient; it is an insult to the Dáil. It is also the case that specific organisations such as FLAC have concerns about the capacity of the Bill to help people in mortgage distress. It has cited, for example, the cut-off date of 1 January 2015 as being problematic because it means that the bank veto is only being removed for those distressed mortgage holders in arrears before that date. There are also concerns that the appeals system will be expensive and unwieldy. The Taoiseach is wrong to try to railroad this and other legislation through the Dáil. It is another example of poor governance and denies the proper democratic oversight important legislation deserves.

The Taoiseach

Everybody wants this legislation to go through. I have been asked questions about it here for the last number of months. We have been waiting for a very considerable period for amendments to be drafted by Opposition parties and so on.

In respect of what Deputies Martin and McDonald said, I think this Dáil is one of the top parliaments in Europe in terms of the number of days sitting and the length of days sitting. I am glad Deputy McDonald has pointed out the difference between herself and her leader. He says he is not very good at mathematics. Deputy McDonald has worked out precisely from a mathematical formula the length of time that is allocated here.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I thank the Taoiseach. Absolutely.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Fine compliments there.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I figured it was beyond the Government Deputies.

Deputy Eric Byrne

Deputy McDonald must have been out advising Syriza on the mathematics.

The Taoiseach

Fair play to Deputy McDonald. She is sharper at the maths than her leader.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

There is nothing wrong with my maths, I can tell the Taoiseach.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Only when it comes to budgets.

Deputy Micheál Martin

What about the quality of the Friday sittings?

The Taoiseach

This is legislation which we need to get through. There are people who are demanding it and who need it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach should stop, for God's sake. He has ignored them for four years. He should give us a break.

The Taoiseach

It has been talked about for long enough. It is time to do it. It is for the benefit of hard-pressed people who need this fast.

Question put: That the proposal for dealing with No. 39 be agreed to.

The Dáil divided: Tá, 69; Níl, 41.

Tá

• Bannon, James.
• Barry, Tom.
• Breen, Pat.
• Burton, Joan.
• Butler, Ray.
• Buttimer, Jerry.
• Byrne, Catherine.
• Byrne, Eric.
• Carey, Joe.
• Coffey, Paudie.
• Conaghan, Michael.
• Connaughton, Paul J.
• Corcoran Kennedy, Marcella.
• Costello, Joe.
• Deasy, John.
• Deenihan, Jimmy.
• Deering, Pat.
• Doherty, Regina.
• Dowds, Robert.
• Doyle, Andrew.
• Durkan, Bernard J.
• English, Damien.
• Fitzgerald, Frances.
• Fitzpatrick, Peter.
• Flanagan, Charles.
• Griffin, Brendan.
• Harrington, Noel.
• Harris, Simon.
• Hayes, Tom.
• Heydon, Martin.
• Humphreys, Kevin.
• Keating, Derek.
• Kehoe, Paul.
• Kenny, Enda.
• Kenny, Seán.
• Kyne, Seán.
• Lawlor, Anthony.
• Lynch, Kathleen.
• Lyons, John.
• McCarthy, Michael.
• McEntee, Helen.
• McFadden, Gabrielle.
• McGinley, Dinny.
• McLoughlin, Tony.
• McNamara, Michael.
• Mitchell O'Connor, Mary.
• Mulherin, Michelle.
• Murphy, Dara.
• Nash, Gerald.
• Neville, Dan.
• Nolan, Derek.
• Noonan, Michael.
• O'Donovan, Patrick.
• O'Dowd, Fergus.
• O'Mahony, John.
• O'Sullivan, Jan.
• Penrose, Willie.
• Phelan, Ann.
• Quinn, Ruairí.
• Rabbitte, Pat.
• Ryan, Brendan.
• Shatter, Alan.
• Stagg, Emmet.
• Stanton, David.
• Tuffy, Joanna.
• Twomey, Liam.
• Varadkar, Leo.
• Walsh, Brian.
• White, Alex.

Níl

• Aylward, Bobby.
• Boyd Barrett, Richard.
• Broughan, Thomas P.
• Browne, John.
• Calleary, Dara.
• Collins, Niall.
• Colreavy, Michael.
• Coppinger, Ruth.
• Cowen, Barry.
• Daly, Clare.
• Dooley, Timmy.
• Ellis, Dessie.
• Ferris, Martin.
• Fitzmaurice, Michael.
• Flanagan, Terence.
• Fleming, Sean.
• Fleming, Tom.
• Halligan, John.
• Healy, Seamus.
• Healy-Rae, Michael.
• Kitt, Michael P.
• Mac Lochlainn, Pádraig.
• McConalogue, Charlie.
• McDonald, Mary Lou.
• McGrath, Finian.
• McGrath, Mattie.
• Martin, Micheál.
• Moynihan, Michael.
• Naughten, Denis.
• Ó Caoláin, Caoimhghín.
• Ó Cuív, Éamon.
• Ó Fearghaíl, Seán.
• Ó Snodaigh, Aengus.
• O'Dea, Willie.
• O'Sullivan, Maureen.
• Pringle, Thomas.
• Ross, Shane.
• Smith, Brendan.
• Stanley, Brian.
• Troy, Robert.
• Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Aengus Ó Snodaigh and Dessie Ellis.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 40, Order for Report, Report and Final Stages of the Children First Bill 2014 agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed based on the same principle as the opposition to the previous proposal. This again represents a guillotining of a very important Bill, namely, the Children First Bill. The proposal is that Report and Final Stages shall be taken today, but again, there is a very short amount of time to deal with the amendments and the issue itself. Coming after the guillotining of No. 39 it reflects very badly on how this House is being managed and organised by the Government side. It undermines any concept of parliamentary reform or any sense of credibility in terms of how we do our business.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a guillotine job.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I agree with those comments. Once again, this is very important legislation that has been awaited for a long time. There has been an inordinate delay in bringing the Bill through the Houses of the Oireachtas but we find ourselves again at the eleventh hour and with a rush to the finishing line and the use of the guillotine, so we object on those grounds also.

The Taoiseach

There are just four amendments to be addressed. Approximately four and a half hours of discussion was had on the Bill on Committee Stage. It is important legislation and must be progressed.

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 40 be agreed to," put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. a1, Second and Remaining Stages of the Defence (Amendment) Bill 2015, tomorrow, agreed to? Agreed. We have three minutes to speak on the Order of Business.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I wish to raise with the Taoiseach the fact that the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Brendan Howlin, refused a request to increase health funding to meet the ongoing need of the Minister for Health, Deputy Leo Varadkar, for approximately €1 billion. The Minister, Deputy Howlin, said the sum of €1 billion was a nice, round figure that the Minister for Health demands on an annual basis. There were more leaks of commentary from the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, on Sunday.

Deputy Michael Moynihan will let the Taoiseach know of a case he is dealing with concerning a person over 70 years who is terminally ill with cancer. The person is on a relatively low income but cannot get a medical card. That reflects the very restrictive approach the Government is taking to issues such as that because of funding. The Deputy has been in regular contact with the authorities on the matter but he has not got a response. Could the Taoiseach let me know when the health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill will be brought before the House?

The Government gave a specific commitment in the programme for Government to insist on the highest standards of transparency in the operation of NAMA, on reduction in the costs associated with the operation of NAMA, and that decision making of NAMA does not delay the restoration of the Irish property market. We have read that approximately €229,000 of taxpayers' money was spent on protecting the right of NAMA to be treated differently to other public authorities in terms of responding to freedom of information requests. The case has gone all the way to the Supreme Court. I believe it was a Mr. Gavin Sheridan who challenged the position. The situation is scandalous. The Government has backed NAMA all the way on the Supreme Court case, despite the programme for Government commitment to which I just referred. When will the Government implement its legislative commitment to bring transparency to NAMA, to which all the Government parties agreed in 2011?

Last Sunday, The Sunday Business Post carried a shocking report about Belfry funds. AIB took €300 million from 3,000 ordinary customers between 2002 and 2006, and all of the money is gone. Most of them were PAYE workers, not speculators, and the bank gambled on their life savings. When can we expect the financial (miscellaneous provisions) Bill and will the Government take legislative action to prevent such activity from happening again?

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Under the Haddington Road agreement, and a side deal struck thereafter, former Ministers and taoisigh are to receive an increase in their pensions. The Taoiseach will be aware that this has gone down like a lead balloon in the public sphere. What is the Taoiseach going to do about it? He has passed the ball to the recipients rather than the Government acting to remedy it.

Last week, the Tánaiste said the Company Law Review Group, CLRG, would examine issues involved in the Clerys dispute. We were also told that the review group has not been tasked with reviewing section 224 of the Companies Act 2014 on tactical insolvencies. Does the Government intend to use the powers under section 962 of the Companies Act 2014 to request that the review group provide a report? It would empower the Minister to ask the review group for a report on a specific issue contained within the Act. In light of the assurance given to the Dáil last week, will be Government exercise its power to task the review group with immediately reviewing the workings of section 224, as is its prerogative?

The Taoiseach

The health (miscellaneous provisions) Bill is scheduled for later in the year. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin, will talk to each Minister, including the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, about issues that arise where shortfalls are identified in Departments or where it is deemed to be appropriate and a priority to deal with such matters. They are part of the budget Estimates process.

The Government does not dictate to NAMA on matters about which it might seek legal advice or pursuit through the courts. In this case, the Supreme Court has provided clarity, given that NAMA lost the case. The Government does not tell NAMA to take any case to court.

Deputy Micheál Martin

What about the sum of €230,000?

The Taoiseach

When Deputy Martin referred to AIB, is he referring to 2003?

Deputy Micheál Martin

This is the point. It is a smart-alec response. Deal with the substance.

The Taoiseach

I will bring him up to date on this. The pensions to which Deputy McDonald referred are determined by the scale of salaries that applied and two of three former taoisigh have said they will not accept a restoration of some of the pension cut that was imposed upon former Members of the House arising from the emergency financial legislation. A cut of 28% still applies to pensions higher than €100,000. As part of the reversal of some of the legislation, it is impossible to legislate for an individual or two in this regard.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

It is not one or two individuals.

The Taoiseach

I am glad two former taoisigh have said they will not accept the part of the restoration of a pension cut. These very high pensions were determined by salary levels at the time, and are different now.

With regard to Clerys, the Minister of State, Deputy Nash, brought a report on the situation to the Cabinet, which was approved and published last week. He made the point that the legislation has not yet been tested. This is expected to happen and, depending on whether it stands up, it may be necessary to refer what happened here to the CLRG for its recommendations as to what, if any, changes might be necessary.