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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 6 Oct 2015

Vol. 891 No. 3

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 12, motion re proposed authorisation by Dáil Éireann for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to instruct legal representatives; No. 13, motion re Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis; No. 14, motion re proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of Ireland’s accession to the memorandum of understanding concerning the principles for the establishment and operation of a battle group (back from committee); No. 6, Dublin Docklands Development Authority (Dissolution) Bill 2015 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that Nos. 12 and 13 shall be decided without debate; and that the proceedings relating to No. 14 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 20 minutes, and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed five minutes in each case. Private Members’ business shall be No. 208, motion re corporation tax.

Tomorrow’s business after Oral Questions shall be No. 40, Marriage Bill 2015 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 6, Dublin Docklands Development Authority (Dissolution) Bill 2015 - Second Stage (resumed); No. 15, National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) Bill 2015 - motion to instruct committee; and No. 41, National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) Bill 2015 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the proceedings in regard to No. 15 shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after one hour, and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed 15 minutes in each case; and such Members may share their time.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 12 and 13 without debate - motion re proposed authorisation for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to instruct legal representatives, and motion re the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis - agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed. Does the proposed authorisation by Dáil Éireann for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission to instruct legal representatives relate to the legal action being taken by Mr. Denis O'Brien against the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission?

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Micheál Martin

This is a fundamental issue, given that the House and its Members are being challenged with respect to their work, along with the concept of the House being in charge of itself under the Constitution and the separation of powers. The issue is very serious and merits debate and contributions from Members of the House.

I say that sincerely. In my lifetime I have not come across such a substantive attempt to change the order. When I say "change the order", I mean in terms of the pre-eminence of Parliament in the conduct of its own affairs. This is fundamental to our Constitution, to freedom of speech and to independent thought in our society, and I have serious concerns about what is transpiring. It seems that at the very least we should facilitate a debate in the House to allow Members to make a contribution to it. The Taoiseach might also clarify why he is not holding a debate on No. 13, regarding the banking inquiry.

The Taoiseach

In respect of No. 13, it is just that the Chairman and the committee have requested extra time in which to deal with the report, until 28 January. They requested extra time to draft it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The reason I am asking for a debate on that is that there is a lot of talk. The Taoiseach yesterday refused to confirm whether there will be a general election. I do not see what the issue is. If he wants to name a date, he should do so.

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on a second now.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is very pertinent to the banking inquiry because if we grant this request, clearly the banking inquiry would fall if the Government were to call an election in November, so the members of the banking-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin has made his point.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is an important point. We were told-----

An Ceann Comhairle

I let the Deputy in and now he has come in a second time, without-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

I know, but I did not realise we are being asked to vote on No. 13 without debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes, that is right.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Given all the speculation and commentary, and the refusal of the Taoiseach to rule out a November election, why would we extend the remit of the banking inquiry unless we are certain the Dáil will be here in January?

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy. He has made his point.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach needs to clarify to the House that we will be here.

Deputy Eric Byrne

We will be here until April next year.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The position is that if the Dáil collapses or fails and there is a general election, that inquiry collapses. It cannot be restarted or reinitiated under a new Dáil. There has been a lot of discussion and commentary about the banking inquiry, as well as a lot of investment and expenditure on it and hype raised about it. It may not be achieving what certain people wanted it to achieve from day one, but the bottom line is that it is reasonable to ask for a debate on that so that we can get clarity as to whether the banking inquiry will fulfil its remit-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Micheál Martin

-----and the Dáil will be in place so that it does not collapse by virtue of an early general election.

The Taoiseach

That is not the debate Deputy Martin is looking for at all.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Sorry?

The Taoiseach

The Chairman has made a request on behalf of the committee for further time to draft the report in respect of the statements made before the banking inquiry committee. That is a straightforward request.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach is asking us to-----

The Taoiseach

Debating that request is irrelevant because the Chairman has asked for time and I am prepared to give him time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Can we debate it?

The Taoiseach

The House can agree on that. In respect of No. 12-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not irrelevant if there is an election.

An Ceann Comhairle

Just one second. These are technical motions-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not technical.

The Taoiseach

The House-----

An Ceann Comhairle

It is technical-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----in so far as the question I have to put to the House-----

Deputy Barry Cowen

It will be seen to have been a waste.

The Taoiseach

No, no.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am entitled to oppose the debate.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Martin can vote against it, by all means.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin wants to have a debate on something else entirely.

Deputy Micheál Martin

No, we should-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach should proceed.

The Taoiseach

The House is not going to collapse. Deputy Martin need not worry.

Deputy Micheál Martin

What does that mean?

The Taoiseach

The House is not going to collapse.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Name the date.

Deputy Eric Byrne

We are here until April. Deputy Martin should get it into his head.

The Taoiseach

The situation with regard to No. 12 has now been dealt with by the Committee on Procedure and Privileges, CPP, for a number of months. This is legally very complex and very sensitive and the CPP agreed unanimously, including the members from Deputy Martin's own party, that this is the course of action that should be taken and advises strongly that we give authorisation in respect of the request from CPP to the Dáil to do this.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have no difficulty with the request, other than that we should have a debate on it. We are a Parliament.

The Taoiseach

It has been debated at length by the CPP.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It has not been debated in this House at all.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am putting the question.

Deputy Micheál Martin

A senior, very significant business figure has challenged this House and we are not allowed discuss it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with items Nos. 12 and 13, motion re: proposed authorisation for the Houses of the Oireachtas Commission-----

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin should talk to his members of the CPP.

Deputy Simon Harris

His own members.

The Taoiseach

Has Deputy Martin spoken to his own members of the CPP?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is appalling.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----to instruct legal representatives-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is very wrong.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----and motion re: Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis, both without debate, agreed?

Deputy Emmet Stagg

It is not wrong. Deputy Martin's party agreed to it.

Question put: "That the proposal for dealing with Nos. 12 and 13 be agreed to."

The Dáil divided: Tá, 85; Níl, 30.

Tá

Níl

Aylward, Bobby.
Boyd Barrett, Richard.
Broughan, Thomas P.
Browne, John.
Calleary, Dara.
Collins, Joan.
Cowen, Barry.
Daly, Clare.
Donnelly, Stephen S.
Fitzmaurice, Michael.
Fleming, Sean.
Grealish, Noel.
Halligan, John.
Kelleher, Billy.
Kirk, Seamus.
Kitt, Michael P.
McGrath, Finian.
McGrath, Michael.
Martin, Micheál.
Moynihan, Michael.
Murphy, Catherine.
Murphy, Paul.
O'Dea, Willie.
O'Sullivan, Maureen.
Pringle, Thomas.
Ross, Shane.
Shortall, Róisín.
Smith, Brendan.
Timmins, Billy.
Wallace, Mick.

Tellers: Tá, Deputies Paul Kehoe and Emmet Stagg; Níl, Deputies Michael Moynihan and Barry Cowen.

Question declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14, motion re Ireland's accession to the memorandum of understanding concerning the principles for the establishment and operation of a battle group, agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 15, National Cultural Institutions (National Concert Hall) Bill 2015 – motion to instruct committee, tomorrow agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Given that the Dáil has now voted through a resolution at the request of the Chairman of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis for the inquiry to be extended to and report in January, can we take that as confirmation that there will not be a general election in November or before Christmas?

It is important in terms of the working and the order of the House that we get clarity on the issue. It is a very simple matter and I have no difficulty. The question of whether the Dáil will be meeting in January is important, given the amount of work and investment that has gone into the banking inquiry. Given the Taoiseach's lack of comment yesterday, I ask him to tell us.

Under the social welfare (miscellaneous provisions) Bill, will the Taoiseach ensure a report commissioned by the Tánaiste on the impact of the cuts to the lone parent allowance will be published as a matter or urgency? The report was done in July by the National University of Ireland, Galway, and the findings about supports for lone parents are stark and shocking. The report is with the Department of Social Protection, but has not been published. Can the Taoiseach explain why and ensure it is published?

The Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, told the annual conference of the Irish Medical Organisation, IMO, that we would publish legislation to establish the first hospital trust, the children's hospital trust, on a statutory basis before the end of the year. Does the Taoiseach expect the Minister to honour his promise, or is he setting a new 18-month waiting time target for legislation?

The programme for Government is one of the greatest documents that has been written in a long time. There is great stuff in it. In the public service reform section, there is a section called " 'Choice and Voice' for service users". It states: "Rather than giving fixed budgets to traditional public service providers like the HSE, VECs and FÁS, we will put resources into the hands of citizens to acquire services that are tailored to better suit their needs and less expensive for the taxpayer." Could the Taoiseach indicate when we can expect this to happen and when the legislation will be brought forward? The programme for Government also states, "In local services, we will establish a website - www.fixmystreet.ie - to assist residents in reporting problems with street lighting, drainage, graffiti ... with a guarantee that a local official will respond within 2 working days." It is not happening in my area. The programme for Government also states, "We will give schools, hospitals and other public service bodies new freedoms - within strict budgets and new accountability systems - to set their own staffing needs, automate routine processes and adapt work practices to local staff and customer needs." When can we expect legislation to inform this? There is much more. I will keep my questions short. The programme also states, "We will bring to an end the unacceptable executive practice where no record is kept of ministerial involvement with an issue and resulting decisions." Anybody who has read the Fennelly report will know the Government has not brought an end to what it called "the unacceptable executive practice where no record is kept of ministerial involvement with an issue and resulting decisions." I would appreciate if the Taoiseach could indicate the processes in his Department to ensure that very significant decisions that have been taken - such as the sending out of a Secretary General to a Garda Commissioner's house close to midnight - are recorded. Can the Taoiseach indicate why no record was kept on that occasion and why the processes the Government committed to in the programme for Government did not click in for the events of that evening, involving the Taoiseach, the then Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Shatter, three Secretaries General and an Attorney General, of which no record at all was kept and for which there is no documentation?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is wrong, in that a record of decisions taken was kept. The decisions were brought to the Cabinet's attention the following morning to establish a commission of investigation and an independent police authority.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Mr. Justice Fennelly said there were none.

The Taoiseach

The decisions were recorded and brought before the Cabinet. The Cabinet adopted them and they became Cabinet policy and are being implemented.

The children's hospital trust is part of the programme for Government in respect of a range of issues. I will ask the Tánaiste to deal with the question of a report she has received regarding social protection. The Dáil has voted on a request from the Committee on Procedure and Privileges and the Chairman of the Joint Committee of Inquiry into the Banking Crisis for an extension of time. This is normal business of the Dáil. There is no reason it should not be granted, and it has been granted. There is nothing unusual about it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not the question I asked at all.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Is Deputy Martin not ready?

Deputy Finian McGrath

Paddy wants to know.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Regarding the Garda Síochána (Policing Authority and Miscellaneous Provisions) Bill, which is working its way through the Oireachtas, would the Taoiseach consider giving the authority a stronger oversight role in cases dealing with allegations of Garda malpractice and cover-up? One family concerned with these issues joins us in the Visitors' Gallery this evening. Ann Doherty, the twin sister of Mary Boyle, a six-year-old girl who disappeared close to her grandparents' home in Donegal in 1977, firmly believes there was both political interference and a Garda cover-up in the case. Would the Taoiseach be willing to meet Ann Doherty to listen to her concerns regarding the Garda handling of the case?

An Ceann Comhairle

That is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I would appreciate a response from the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

Certain things are and are not allowed on the Order of Business. The Taoiseach may give a short reply.

The Taoiseach

The Bill will come before the committee tomorrow. I am aware of the case of Mary Boyle. It took place many years ago. A number of years ago, I received some contact about it, which I brought to the attention of the Garda. I cannot say whether the allegation made was followed up, given that it was a number of years ago.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Would the Taoiseach agree to meet Ann Doherty?

The Taoiseach

I have no objection to meeting Mary Boyle's sister when I get a chance. I would be happy to do so. The day-to-day operational matters of the Garda are a matter for the Garda Commissioner. The new independent policing authority will bring new powers and opportunities, as will the changes brought about to the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, which is being chaired by a High Court judge. All of these things are important and represent the most fundamental changes to the structure of the Garda Síochána since the foundation of the State. If the Deputy will send me the contact number for Mary Boyle's sister, I will be happy to talk to her.

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