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Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 10 Nov 2015

Vol. 895 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

I wish to raise the issue of the sale of State-owned assets by IBRC and the inquiry into their sale, in addition to the difficulties and obstacles that have now been identified by the chairman of the inquiry and as revealed in The Sunday Business Post via a leak of some sort. The issues are very serious, and the Taoiseach will recall the background to them. The sale of Siteserv to a Denis O'Brien-owned company at a loss of €119 million to the taxpayer was the prime catalyst for the initiation of the inquiry into that deal and other deals about which it subsequently emerged senior civil servants in the Department of Finance had concerns. It is fair to say the Government was dragged kicking and screaming to the stage of establishing an inquiry. There was reluctance and, indeed, a refusal to answer parliamentary questions. The concerns of the senior officials in the Department of Finance were forced into being released through freedom of information requests. The doggedness and tenacity of Deputy Catherine Murphy are to be commended in that regard. All along, there was reluctance.

KPMG, the company that advised on the sale of Siteserv originally, was asked by the Minister for Finance to conduct the inquiry, incredible as that now seems. Eventually, with all the opposition, he capitulated and handed it over to the Taoiseach who appointed Mr. Justice Daniel O'Keeffe. A month later, Mr. Justice O'Keeffe had to withdraw for personal reasons and Mr. Justice Brian Cregan was appointed to the chair. This week we learned that the Taoiseach was alerted last Thursday or Friday that there were major obstacles. Today, the judge is saying to the Cabinet that he cannot proceed with this inquiry.

It is a litany of incompetence at best and maybe a degree of convenience as well. The Government thought it might have parked all the controversies some time ago, but it is extraordinary the degree to which it seems impossible to get any information or any inquiry going concerning the sale of Siteserv and other issues.

A question please.

Is the Taoiseach saying that Government officials did not know about any of this until this week? On 22 August, there was an article in The Irish Times by Cliff Taylor flagging concerns of this kind and indicating that Government officials are saying they are confident that any legal concerns can be overcome to allow the formal handover of documentation to get under way in earnest. It identified issues at that time. We have also learned that Department of Finance officials confirmed in this morning's Irish Examiner that they had taken legal advice and had not waived their rights in relation to the release of documents.

Would the Deputy put a question?

If Department of Finance officials are taking legal advice on this very issue and are refusing to waive their rights in relation to the release of documents, how is it that the Minister for Finance and the Taoiseach knew nothing about it until Thursday or Friday? Is it credible that the Attorney General did not flag this issue to the Cabinet in advance of the establishment of the commission of investigation? Will the Taoiseach undertake to publish the Attorney General's advice that was given to the Government prior to the establishment of the commission?

Deputy Martin has outlined the background to this particular issue. I will start by saying that I do not know of anybody in the House who does not want this matter dealt with thoroughly, comprehensively-----

Look in the mirror.

-----and in an absolutely accountable way in the public interest. That is my opening position. The Department of the Taoiseach is the receiving Department for reports from Mr. Justice Cregan in respect of this matter. Discussions would have taken place when Mr. Justice O'Keeffe was dealing with this because he was beginning to handle it at that stage. He then had to retire because of personal reasons and, as Deputy Martin pointed out, Mr. Justice Cregan has taken over.

For the information of the House, at its Cabinet meeting today, the Government reaffirmed its commitment to ensuring that there be a full and independent investigation of the issues that were raised in relation to the IBRC matter and the transactions therein. The Attorney General briefed the Government on a number of legal issues and potential options that are open to ensure this can be achieved. The Government noted that a number of significant legal issues arise which need consideration.

I will briefly set out for Members of the House the sequence of events. On 9 June, following consultation by the Minister for Finance with the Opposition parties, the Government approved the draft order establishing the commission of investigation into certain matters concerning transactions entered into by IBRC. The draft order was then laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas and approved, following debate in both Houses. Subsequently, on 15 June, the Government established the commission. Following the resignation of Mr. Justice O'Keeffe for personal reasons, Mr. Justice Cregan was appointed as chair of the commission on 9 July. I was designated as the responsible Minister under the Act so the judge sends his formal reports to me and his work is funded through the Vote of my Department. He is completely independent in the conduct of his investigation.

Last Thursday, 5 November, Mr. Justice Cregan and his legal team met, at his request, with officials from my Department and the Office of the Attorney General. At that meeting he outlined legal issues he had considered in relation to the use of documents which were either confidential or subject to legal privilege and stated that he had made a determination in this regard. The official asked that his position be outlined urgently in writing to me as the responsible Minister under the Commissions of Investigation Act. The determination by the judge was not given to my Department at that meeting although it was sent by Mr. Justice Cregan to the Department of Finance later that day and therefore has been available to the Attorney General for her consideration of the matter.

I received a letter from Mr. Justice Cregan the following day, last Friday, 6 November. This letter referred to the determination of the judge and the commission on issues of confidentiality and privilege, which means that, in the words of the letter, "it is not in a position to proceed with this investigation into any of the relevant write-off transactions". The letter also stated that the commission is in the process of preparing an interim report to me, as the specified Minister, which will outline the work of the commission to date and the issues which have arisen. It will also seek an extension of time for the completion of the work of the commission. The interim report can be finalised only after the commission has consulted any person who is identified in or identifiable from the draft report.

On receipt of that letter from Mr. Justice Cregan, I immediately requested advice from the Attorney General on the implications of this determination and the legal options that are open to ensure the House can have an investigation which is fully transparent and accountable and that can be completed in an effective and timely manner. I will arrange to have the judge's letter published today.

The Government was informed this morning that Mr. Justice Cregan has decided to publish his determination both in respect of the issue of confidentiality in regard to the special liquidator and the Department of Finance. I understand this has been done and I welcome the judge's decision to publish in order that all concerned can debate in a transparent fashion the issues involved.

The Government was also informed this morning of a request from Mr. Justice Cregan that it would be preferable for the Government to receive his interim report before deciding on the course of action it should take. This is also the view of the Attorney General who cannot, in fairness, give formal legal advice to the Cabinet in the absence of the judge's interim report. I understand that the report should be available shortly as the consultations were under way and dealt with on Friday last.

The importance of the issue - the question of confidentiality and legal professional privilege - raises extensive legal issues which have been considered in detail by the commission over recent months. Given that importance, that the terms of reference for the commission were prepared following consultation with the Opposition parties, and that the order establishing the commission was approved by the Houses of the Oireachtas, I believe the questions that have arisen should be considered by all the parties and the Members of the House before a decision is made on the best way to proceed.

I also hope Mr. Justice Cregan will be in a position to submit his interim report to me formally, as the receiving Minister, at the earliest possible date. I will then commit to publishing that in accordance with the law and also to discussing it with Opposition Members and in the House in order that we can identify what needs to be done following the judicial determination and move on to achieve the ambition of accountable, transparent analysis of all the transactions in what was in excess of a €10 million write-off.

The Taoiseach did not answer any of the questions I asked. Not one.

Ten minutes of waffle.

I asked a very simple question. Is the Taoiseach saying that Government officials were not aware of any of this until this week? Why are Department of Finance officials confirming that the Minister for Finance and the Department of Finance have refused to waive their rights in relation to the release of documents? Will the Taoiseach please explain why the Department of Finance is doing that? It was confirmed by its officials yesterday. In that very decision, clearly being aware that this was an issue for some time, the former IBRC chairman, Alan Dukes, is confirming he discussed it with the chairman of the investigation two months ago.

On 22 August, an article on these issues was published in The Irish Times. Did the Attorney General, in her advice to Government, flag this issue with the Taoiseach at any stage prior to the establishment of the commission of investigation?

There must have been advice at that stage, so will the Taoiseach now publish it? It seems incredible - it does not seem credible - that these substantive issues were not raised with the Government and the Taoiseach in advance of the setting up of the commission of investigation. That would seem to have been a major omission.

Fundamentally, is the Taoiseach saying to me categorically that no officials in either the Department of Finance, the Department of the Taoiseach or elsewhere were aware of this issue prior to this week? Can the Taoiseach clarify that?

Why has the Department of Finance refused to waive its rights? We have an extraordinary situation, it seems, from the evidence of Mr. Dukes, whereby KPMG, a State-appointed liquidator to the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation, is claiming privilege over these documents, as is the Department of Finance. This relates to the activities of a State bank handling assets belonging to the people and involving write-offs concerning the people.

The public generally will be looking at this with the view that when it comes to the powerful and wealthy the Government never really goes too far with the inquiries. That is a problem in terms of the public's perception of how obstacle after obstacle can be put in the way of getting to some truths about basic issues raised. These issues were first seriously alerted to the public, the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance by senior civil servants in the Department of Finance. It was not media hype, as some would suggest. It was done by senior civil servants in the Department of Finance. They flagged real concerns to the Minister, Deputy Noonan, some time back on the sale of Siteserv and the sale of other assets. However, the Government chose to do nothing about those concerns until it was forced into the open through freedom of information requests. That is the sad reality. The Government was dragged kicking and screaming to where we are today. Again, we are empty-handed in terms of any succour for the general public and their wish to know what went on.

I wish to make the point to Deputy Martin, as I did before, that Fianna Fáil was forthright in welcoming the setting up of the commission of investigation into certain matters relating to IBRC.

Answer the question.

I made the point that the establishment of the statutory investigation was a rare victory for our parliamentary democracy. Everyone, despite their initial political comments, welcomed the fact that the commission of investigation was being set up.

What about the officials?

It would be great to get an answer to the question.

The Department of the Taoiseach is the receiving Department for the report or reports that will come from Mr. Justice Cregan. The Department of Finance is party to the investigation by the commission into this matter. Therefore, of course, the work of the commission will be outlined in the interim report from Mr. Justice Cregan. Obviously, he will outline the contacts and the consultations that he had with all interested parties, including the Department of Finance.

They knew. Is that correct?

They are a party to the investigation being conducted by the commission.

They knew and they did not tell the Taoiseach. Is that what the Taoiseach is saying?

Please. We are seven minutes over time.

No. Deputy Martin is going a little too far with me.

Is he too quick for the Taoiseach?

The point is that the Department of Finance is part of the investigation by the commission into the sale of the assets in respect of IBRC. Therefore, the justice, in moving through the process, has to be in contact with interested parties. He has now made a determination, following that process, that he cannot go any further because of the issues of confidentiality.

That does not answer my question. Is the Taoiseach saying that Department of Finance officials knew?

The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, commented the other day to the effect that all of the requests made at the Department of Finance in regard of this matter were sent in unredacted form to the commission when they were requested.

Sorry; there are other Deputies here and we are eight minutes over.

Does that mean Department of Finance officials did not know?

Obviously, as has happened in the vast majority of other cases, they carry a warning in respect of confidentiality.

Not necessarily.

In the past, in the conduct of a number of commissions, the question of confidentiality was overruled in the public interest, which is what we want here. However, no justice in the past has equated the question of confidentiality with that of privilege.

I waived confidentiality on documents in a previous inquiry as a Minister.

The Act drawn up in 2004-----

It is open to the Minister for Finance to waive all rights relating to the release of documents if he wants to. It has been done before.

Sorry. I have to ask you to finish, Taoiseach.

The draft of the Act drawn up by the late Attorney General did not distinguish between the questions of confidentiality and privilege.

In the determination published on the commission's website, Mr. Justice Cregan has made a number of observations. He made a request this morning that the Cabinet would not take a course of action until the interim report is received from him, and I respect that. Anyway, work was already under way in respect of the possibilities and options that need to be followed by the Office of the Attorney General. Let me repeat again that it is the single determination-----

Can the Taoiseach confirm whether Department of Finance officials knew?

It is the single determination of the Government to see-----

Is the answer to my question "Yes"? That is all. Is it "Yes" or "No"? Did they know before last week?

Sorry, Taoiseach. I have to ask you to finish, please.

I asked a straight question. Did they know before last week? Can the Taoiseach not tell me whether they knew?

Why does the Taoiseach have to keep going on, obstructing and not giving clear answers to questions asked?

We are ten minutes over on that question.

I cannot get a clear answer. Did they know?

Deputy Adams is next. Thank you.

Will the Taoiseach state whether they knew before last week?

The Taoiseach's claim that the Government only found out about legal difficulties with the commission of investigation into IBRC does not have any credibility. The reason it does not have any credibility is that every time issues have been raised about IBRC the Taoiseach has done what he did today: he has stonewalled.

In 2012 Deputy Pearse Doherty and I submitted a range of parliamentary questions about IBRC. The responses from the Government, including the Taoiseach and the Minister for Finance, were obstructive and unhelpful. That is despite the fact, as it later emerged, that the Minister for Finance was briefed by his own officials on their concerns about this deal and other deals involving IBRC. It is despite IBRC's having sold Siteserv to a Denis O'Brien company at a loss to taxpayers of at least €105 million. It was only as a result of An Teachta Catherine Murphy's efforts that we found out the O'Brien company was not the highest bidder. The Government would not tell us that. The Government also resisted the calls for a commission. Then, when the Government eventually published the terms of reference for the commission, I wrote to the Taoiseach on 4 June pointing out that the terms of reference did not deal comprehensively with all the issues the commission would need to examine. An Teachta Mary Lou McDonald met the Minister for Finance and made the same case. The Taoiseach was well warned that the scope of the investigation was not wide enough to carry out the necessary examinations.

What advice did the Taoiseach receive from the Attorney General in respect of the commission's ability to examine confidential or privileged documents? Did this include documents from the Department of Finance? I am keen for the Taoiseach to repeat what he said in his statement a moment ago, because I do not want to make a mistake about it. He said that the commission had made a judicial determination on the admissibility of documents from the special liquidator. I heard that much. I think the Taoiseach went on to say "and the Department of Finance". Will the Taoiseach repeat that statement for me before I come back with a supplementary question?

There are two determinations made by the justice: one in respect of the documentation received from the special liquidator and another from the Department of Finance. Both are published on the commission's website today. They are there for Members to read and there is nothing secret about that.

In the letter Mr. Justice Cregan sent to me formally on Friday, he alluded to the fact that he had a determination made at that point in respect of the documentation from the special liquidator and that he was proceeding to make a similar determination in respect of documentation received from the Department of Finance.

Some 12 or 14 different commissions of investigation have been conducted under this Act since 2004. This is the first occasion on which a judge in charge of a commission has made this particular observation in terms of the law. Since the Government is keen that everyone be involved in this in the public interest and that the process be open, transparent and accountable, it is only right and proper that I accede to a request from Mr. Justice Cregan to wait until I receive the interim report and have authorisation to publish it. I understand that can be as soon as possible. Then, as a House, we can discuss the actions that need to be taken. In his determination there are a number of references to inadequacies and the restrictions upon him. Work is under way in the Office of the Attorney General on a number of things.

I would like to see the interim report from Mr. Justice Cregan before we can discuss it as a Cabinet and in the House, and determine the best thing to do. It is the first time since the Commissions of Investigation Act was established that a judge in charge of a commission has made this particular decision. As the House knows, commissions of investigation were welcomed by everybody, including Sinn Féin, as being the way to proceed. Everybody is also aware that commissions of investigation were initiated in the first instance by the then Attorney General and Government as a method of not having to go down the road of endless tribunals of inquiry. I do not think anybody would want to contemplate that.

The Taoiseach did not answer my question on the advice the Attorney General gave him. He promised a democratic revolution and said he would do things differently, not like his predecessor. It is obvious he did not mean any of that because since he has become Taoiseach every time there has been a conflict between the elites and golden circles and citizens, he has taken the side of the elites and golden circles.

I asked him to repeat his earlier statement because he said that the judge had made a judicial determination on the admissibility of documents from the Department of Finance. Does that mean that the commission could not obtain or examine documents? Does it mean that if he is making a judicial determination about this matter that he brought this to the attention of the Department of Finance? It clearly knew that there was a problem.

The Taoiseach is only now addressing the issue when everything has been forced upon him by the judge in charge of the commission writing a letter, which was subsequently leaked to the media. It appears that, whatever about any speculation on any other issue, this happened on foot of KPMG not making documentation available to the commission of investigation. KPMG had a role in the sale of Siteserv and other assets. He also knows that KPMG was the first choice of the Government to conduct a review of IBRC transactions, even though it was involved in them. At the bottom of all of this are the millions of euro that are going into the pockets of the elites and out of the pockets of taxpayers.

The Taoiseach has fudged the issue. He claimed, in his usual obtuse and opaque way, that he only knew about this last week on receipt of the letter from the commission. A Government spokesperson is quoted in, I understand, The Irish Times as dismissing these concerns as early as mid-September. The Government was aware of them. Why did the Taoiseach wait until his hand was forced today?

This is a commission of investigation. It is obliged by law, in terms of the consultation or discussion that takes place between the person dealing with the commission and those who were named or interested organisations or bodies that are involved in it, not to talk about any of these things. I do not deal in speculation or rumour. Deputy Adams has been moving in some golden circles quite recently, I note, but that is beside the point.

There is no need to make an assertion of some kind of restriction or cover-up of documentation. The Minister for Finance said all of the documentation available to the Department of Finance, without redaction, was sent to the commission.

All that he requested.

All of the documentation relevant to the commission of investigation by Mr. Justice Cregan was sent.

The Minister for Finance said all that he requested was sent.

The Deputy should not assert in here that somebody was trying to restrict or not send information that is relevant.

All of this information carried with it a confidentiality warning from the Department of Finance, not in all of the papers but in some of them. That confidentiality applied in many other commissions of investigation. It can and has been overruled in the public interest by the person chairing the commission of investigation.

As the Deputy knows, we have had commissions of investigation into the Dublin-Monaghan bombings, child sexual abuse, the Leas Cross nursing home, the banking sector and so on, where matters of confidentiality were overruled in the public interest. This is the first time, however, that a judge, in this case Mr. Justice Cregan, has pointed out from his perspective and independent determination that he cannot go any further. I want him to be able to go further, and I am quite sure everybody else in the House does as well.

In the interests of everybody and the accountability and transparency the Deputy has spoken about, we should be allowed to receive his completed interim report. It is to be hoped it will be released very quickly. When authorisation is received to publish it as soon as possible afterwards, it can be discussed in the House so that the Dáil and later the Seanad can make decisions about how best to proceed in order to have accountability, transparency and full compliance.

People in IBRC are also concerned that their good name is being shoved aside. In the interests of all of the transactions in respect of which there was a write-down of over €10 million, we need to be able to deal with this issue in whatever form. The Office of the Attorney General is examining some of the options that might be considered following the determination of the judge now published. I would like to wait to get the interim report, discuss it at Cabinet level and in the Oireachtas and make the necessary decisions so that the commission of investigation can get on with its business with openness, accountability and transparency and, in the public interest, deal with the issues that have been raised by Deputies, including Deputy Murphy.

Last October I stood in this very spot and raised issues about Siteserv and the water metering contract. As the months progressed the questions extended into the wider issues surrounding IBRC and how it handled certain transactions. Ultimately, the questions moved to the dysfunctional relationship between IBRC and the Department of Finance.

IBRC had one remit, namely, to ensure that citizens got the maximum return possible for the €35 billion they were forced to pump into banks, primarily the failed Anglo Irish Bank. We want assurances, for example, as to whether the €119 million written off when Siteserv was sold to Denis O'Brien was in fact the best decision for Irish citizens. Some five months on from the establishment of the commission, we are at a stalemate.

Ironically, the special liquid liquidator, Kieran Wallace, the person whom the Department originally wanted to conduct a review into the Siteserv issue, is now claiming privilege and refusing to co-operate fully. Over the past 24 hours the public interest director of IBRC has taken to the airwaves to express concern about the injustice that will be perpetrated against the board of IBRC and its reputation if the commission collapses. What about the injustice perpetrated against Irish citizens, in a situation where the public bailed out the bank but cannot know how the assets were disposed of? That is the real injustice.

It appears that the balance of law falls on protecting individuals rather than the common good. How can that be right or even constitutional? Was that even considered when the inquiry was established? The Minister, Deputy Noonan, can claim that his Department has provided unredacted documents, but he is providing them inside a circle of confidentiality. If he is providing documents, but placing significant restrictions on them, how can he claim that he is co-operating fully?

Can the Taoiseach confirm whether any debtor involved in any of the transactions has threatened legal action if the commission proceeds? Can he confirm if the Minister, Deputy Noonan, is co-operating fully in a way that will allow the findings to be available for full public consumption? When did the Taoiseach first know of the problems with the commission? Apparently letters have been flying around for the past few months between the parties concerned. Articles in newspapers have been written by Cliff Taylor and John Walsh. Alan Dukes has known about it since August.

Does the Taoiseach's Department read these newspapers? Would that have been discussed? Would the Taoiseach have been kept in the loop on this issue? Will he tell us what he means by "as soon as possible"? The 2004 Act allowed for the setting up of these inquiries to replace very time-consuming and expensive tribunals. Does the Taoiseach agree that if he wanted to shut down debate on a particular topic the best way to do so would be to set up a commission of inquiry, because there can be no parliamentary questions, no freedom of information requests, no questions to the Taoiseach and no press inquiries? Unfortunately, in this case it appears that we do not even have an inquiry.

I thank Deputy Murphy. The Deputy was one of the principal public representatives who raised this issue and welcomed the debate and the establishment of a commission of investigation. The Government was happy in the circumstances to provide that. She made the point in her observations that she was pleased that we were going to get that information, albeit in a different way. I am quite sure everybody supports a facility for absolute transparency, accountability and so on in the public interest. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, is, of course, co-operating fully with the commission of investigation and has said publicly that all of the available documentation was sent in unredacted fashion to the commission of inquiry.

I cannot communicate with Mr. Justice Cregan to tell him when to send in his interim report. My understanding is that it could be finalised very soon. I do not want to put a day on it, but I would hope that in a relatively short time we could have the interim report. If I were to say next week, I would hope that could be so, in order that we could have his authorisation to publish the report and have it reflected on here in the Oireachtas to receive the wisdom of all Deputies about how to proceed. Nobody - with one exception, I think - referred to the word "confidentiality" during the discussions that took place on the terms of reference for this inquiry and nobody pointed out what all Deputies now know to a great extent and are very knowledgeable about. This is the first time a judge has taken this particular view in respect of the Commission of Investigation Act 2004.

The Deputy asked when I found out about this. I have already put that on the record here. I received a letter from Mr. Justice Cregan on Friday, 6 November 2015. The judge did make contact with officials from the Department of the Taoiseach, as the receiving Department, and with officials from the Office of the Attorney General, and I asked that that be presented in writing. He sent me that letter on 6 November, last Friday. In that letter he pointed to the fact that a body of work had been done by the commission of investigation in respect of the special liquidators, that he had received their assertion of confidentiality over all the documents they had submitted, that a similar claim of confidentiality and privilege was made by the Department of Finance over some of the documentation received from it, and that the commission was proposing to have a similar determination drafted as it did for the special liquidator.

This is outrageous.

They are published on the website for the Deputies' perusal. He went on to say in his letter, which I will publish later today, that the commission is preparing an interim report under section 34 of the Act. Prior to the submission of the interim report to me, under the relevant sections thereof, any persons identified or identifiable from the draft report must have it under normal circumstances. He pointed out that the interim report would outline in detail the work of the commission to date and would also deal with issues that have arisen. I assume that Mr. Justice Cregan, in the interest of carrying out his business in a transparent and accountable fashion, will point out the recommendations he sees as appropriate for the Oireachtas or the Legislature, in whatever fashion, to allow him continue to do that. I do not know of anybody here who does not want that to happen as quickly, as effectively and as speedily as possible. The Government will respond, and in order to do that, we have to know what exactly it is that we have to do and the best way of going about it.

Of course I welcomed the establishment of the commission, but I think we would all have expected the legal issues to be explored before it was set up. Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Attorney General specifically said there was no impediment to the commission when it was established? Would this particular aspect have been considered? Can the Taoiseach show goodwill in at least holding an aspect of that inquiry, particularly in regard to Siteserv, in terms of the response that will be forthcoming from him to the judge in question? We all know that Anglo Irish Bank is no ordinary bank. The information, we are informed, is confidential to the borrowers. That is one of the impediments. Therefore, we all collectively pay off the debts of many of these borrowers who will have their confidentiality protected. Does the Taoiseach see this as an issue of clear public interest? Is it that the common good is the primary issue at stake? Is that the way this is being approached?

I thank the Deputy.

An issue that is being discussed at the moment - I am certainly hearing it, although I do not know whether it is just Chinese whispers or it is real - is that one of the responses might be consideration of a tribunal of inquiry. Given that the same names crop up in the context of, for example, the Moriarty report, how could people have confidence in that kind of response? What responses is the Taoiseach looking at in terms of how this inquiry can proceed without running into the legal impediments that are stalling the inquiry or possibly causing it to collapse?

I do not expect that the inquiry will collapse. Mr. Justice Cregan has pointed out in his determination the reasons for saying to me formally in a letter that he is unable to continue processing the case given the circumstances that now apply, so how can we make adjustments, legislatively or in any other fashion, to allow him to continue to do that? From that point of view, Mr. Justice Cregan has requested that I wait until I receive the interim report. Obviously, he is working on that. In the meantime, the Office of the Attorney General is looking at a range of options that have been referred to in the determination of Mr. Justice Cregan in respect of both the special liquidator and the documentation received from the Department of Finance. As I said, in answer to an earlier question, I do not think anybody wants to go down the route of a tribunal of inquiry. We have had experience of inquiries lasting ten years and costing in excess of €100 million. The issue here, which Deputy Catherine Murphy rightly raised - it was in order for her to do so - is to find out in the public interest whether there was favouritism or whether any undue decision was taken, not in the public interest, in regard to any of these transactions to which a write-off in excess of €10 million applied. My understanding is that there are 37 cases involving 200,000 pages of documentation, and the intention of the Government in setting up the commission was to be able get to the bottom of that. If there is an issue that needs to be addressed in a fair and accountable fashion, then so be it; the commission of investigation should be able to do that. Mr. Justice Cregan has pointed out how, in his decision and his judgment, he is unable to go further. We as the Oireachtas have a duty, in the public interest and for public information, to deal with that issue. In order to be able to deal with it, I need to have Mr. Justice Cregan's interim report. He has requested we wait until we receive that report before proceeding. From my point of view, as the person whose Department sponsors this inquiry and from whose Vote it is paid, I assure the House that whatever it is that we have to do or whatever we can do in order to allow the inquiry to proceed will be done.

When we get the interim report, we will have it considered by the Cabinet and brought here.

We will get all the advice and then decide if a legislative proposition or whatever will allow that to happen, so the commission of investigation can implement and deal with the terms of reference that were given to it by the Oireachtas to find the answers to those questions in the public interest.

I do not think anybody believes the Taoiseach.

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