Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 25 Nov 2015

Vol. 898 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Excise Duties

Deputy Robert Dowds

I thank the Minister for coming to the House to address this matter. The controversy around Volkswagen has caused people to focus on the issue. The Minister, or whoever holds the position after the election, will have a year long run-in to this but I ask him, nevertheless, if he will consider raising the tax on diesel relative to that on petrol. It should be done on a gradual basis so as not to affect too adversely people who are using diesel vehicles. The move towards diesel was influenced by scientific studies at the time of the Kyoto Protocol in 1997, which suggested that diesel vehicles emitted between 5% and 10% less pollution than petrol. Recent studies under the auspices of the World Health Organization, however, have classified diesel as a carcinogen causing lung cancer, bladder cancer and so on. Soot particles from diesel, which are very small, are finding their way into people's lungs. I am not suggesting that petrol is without its problems but the problem is particularly aggravated in urban areas where the damaging effect of diesel is worse due to its concentration.

After the Kyoto Protocol there was a gradual move from petrol towards diesel. This was understandable in the initial stages because the scientific evidence suggested it was a good idea and, in 2014, some 73% of new vehicles purchased in Ireland ran on diesel, while in Europe generally the total has risen to 53% of new purchases. Owing to the harmful effects of diesel, there is now a need to reverse this trend. In 2013, the European Commission noted that the economic policy on diesel fuel and car sales ignored the new reality. Diesel in Ireland is taxed at approximately 12% lower than petrol but in other countries, such as France and Belgium, they are moving towards the equalisation of tax on petrol and diesel. I ask that we move in a gradual manner in this direction. If we had a 4 cent rise in the price of diesel, it would yield approximately €80 million and such money could be used to improve public transport.

The general policy with regard to tax on fuel should be that the highest taxes be on the most damaging types of fuel and the lowest on the least damaging. This is beyond the issue of tax on fuel but people who use vehicles which are less damaging to the environment should also be compensated in some way, whether through their car tax or something else. We need to turn the negativity around the appalling deception of Volkswagen, which deliberately hid the extent of damaging emissions from its vehicles, into something positive. Research from the European Commission indicates that emissions from diesel cars can be 20 times worse than they appear to be under laboratory conditions. We need to use tax policy to protect the world environment and people's health as effectively as possible.

Minister for Finance (Deputy Michael Noonan)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter this afternoon. As the Minister for Finance, I recognise the negative impact that the combustion of diesel can have. Having said that, Ireland already has one of the highest excise rates on diesel in the European Union at 48 cent per litre. Over the lifetime of this Government, the excise rate on diesel has been increased by 8.5 cent per litre through a combination of increases imposed through the introduction of the carbon tax as well as specific excise increases on diesel.

The excises on mineral oils in Ireland raise approximately €2 billion for the Exchequer each year. Some €1.2 billion of this is attributable to diesel. These excises assist the Government in dealing with the costs of the externalities associated with the use of mineral oil, as well as helping fund services in general.

Excise is not the only policy tool we have to incentivise the use of cleaner modes of transport and vehicles on our roads. In July 2008, the basis of vehicle registration tax moved from the vehicle's engine size to the volume of carbon dioxide emitted from the vehicle. This means motor cars with higher emissions attract a higher liability. Also in July 2008, the system of annual motor tax moved from engine size to an emissions basis, thereby ensuring an ongoing economic penalty to the most polluting vehicles. These measures are designed to reduce harmful emissions into the environment. The average new car is now 28% cleaner than in 2007, which is leading to a cleaner overall fleet of vehicles on our roads. In addition, I have extended the relief from vehicle registration tax on electric vehicles and reduced rates for hybrid vehicles. The cycle to work scheme, which I continue to support, uses the tax system to encourage commuters to cycle to work instead of driving.

There are other considerations to be aware of when deciding whether to apply increases to the rate of excise on diesel. Diesel is the fuel of business and increasing its price increases the cost of doing business in the State and impacts on our overall competitiveness. Bearing this in mind, the rate of excise on diesel is lower than the rate of excise on petrol. Having different excise rates for petrol and diesel is the standard practice across the majority of member states of the European Union, and the difference between the respective rates in Ireland is in line with the EU average.

In April of this year, the National Competitiveness Council published a report entitled Cost of Doing Business in Ireland 2015, which indicated that diesel in Ireland is 5.5% more expensive than the average in the euro area. The overall tax on the price of diesel, at 60.3%, is the third highest in the euro area. The report states this has an impact on competitiveness. The Deputy will be aware, therefore, that a balance needs to be struck in this matter. The excise rate on diesel is considered annually in the context of the budget and I, as Minister, consider all the benefits and impacts when setting the rate.

The policies in place are working. The environmentally based vehicle registration tax and motor tax have resulted in a move to vehicles which produce fewer emissions. Ireland's rate of excise on diesel is high to discourage its use as much as possible. However, it is important to consider that diesel is the fuel of business and is already more expensive here than in many of our European competitors.

Deputy Robert Dowds

I thank the Minister for his reply. I am glad he drew attention to the incentives available to those who transfer to less polluting vehicles, including in the area of vehicle registration tax. I ask him to examine the action being taken in this area by France and Belgium.

While I accept the Minister's point that diesel is the fuel of business, the other side of the coin is that the fuel has harmful effects. I have proposed an increase in the excise rate on diesel. Another option would be to introduce a small reduction in excise on petrol and a small increase in excise on diesel.

It is important to try to persuade people, especially car drivers, to switch from purchasing diesel vehicles to petrol or, better still, hybrid vehicles. In this regard, will the Minister to set in train an examination of the various measures that could be taken in this area in the next budget?

Deputy Michael Noonan

As I stated, I am aware of the externalities associated with the use of diesel. I have put in place a number of policies to reduce our dependence on diesel as a fuel of business. The use of natural gas as a propellant was provided for in budget 2015 at the minimum excise rate allowable under the EU energy tax directive. This measure will incentivise the largest consumers of diesel, such as companies with large fleets of trucks, to avail of this transport fuel. The rate of excise on diesel needs to be monitored carefully and, as Minister, I will not hesitate to raise it again if I believe that, on balance, there is a need to do so. I assure the Deputy that I will draw his remarks to the notice of my officials to have them taken into account if any alteration in the excise duty on fossil fuels is being proposed in next year's budget or subsequent budgets.

Job Losses

Deputy Regina Doherty

I thank the Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Joe McHugh, for taking this Topical Issue matter. It has been brought to my attention recently that almost 150 people have been made redundant or are in the process of being made redundant at C&C Gleeson because their positions are being moved to Northern Ireland. Was the Minister aware of this development? Was the Department given the proper statutory notice? Did it engage in negotiations or discussions with the company on how best to encourage it to keep these jobs in Dublin and Tipperary?

A more important issue for me, given that all politics are local, is the treatment of a constituent of mine who has given 34 years of service to C&C. He turned down an offer from the company of voluntary redundancy, stating that he had a couple of good years left and wanted to continue working. He was told it was tough luck and he was being made redundant. When he refused to accept redundancy and suggested he might get his trade union involved or picket the plant, he was immediately walked off the premises and placed on gardening leave until this day next week when the statutory notice period runs out. The key issue is the way in which my constituent is being treated in comparison with the approximately 140 other employees who are being made redundant by C&C Gleeson. The average redundancy payment for these employees is between three and four weeks pay per year of service, which would be a sizeable sum for a person who has given 20, 30 or 35 years of service. The gentlemen about whom I have spoken has been offered two weeks of severance pay for each year of service he has given the C&C Group. I believe this offer was made as a direct result of his resistance to being made redundant or, as occurred in his case, being effectively forced to retire.

What is the Minister of State's opinion, if he is able to give one, of an organisation with the stature and success of C&C Gleeson treating some of its staff in the manner I have outlined? Specifically, what is his opinion on the disparity in treatment being shown to some of those who, unfortunately, find their positions being made redundant and relocated to the North?

Minister of State at the Department of Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht (Deputy Joe McHugh)

Toisc nach féidir leis an Aire, an Teachta Richard Bruton, a bheith i láthair inniu, freagróidh mise an cheist ar a shon.

My first thoughts are with the workers who are being made redundant and with their families. All the State supports will be made available to any workers affected. As I understand it, the job losses announced by C&C affect a number of the company's plants nationwide. Voluntary redundancies were sought as the company restructured its Irish business and integrated the manufacturing and distribution business it acquired in 2012. In total, I understand 31 voluntary redundancies were sought in logistics, distribution depots and field sales operation, while five staff transferred to a contract haulier. I understand a further ten job losses pertain solely to one of the Tipperary plants.

The announcement by C&C is as a result of the loss of a significant private label contract with a retailer and the loss of sole supplier status with another retailer for a private label product. These events will see the reduction of the depot value from the plant concerned. The company is working to replace this business as soon as is possible. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Richard Bruton, has directed officials from Enterprise Ireland to continue to engage with C&C management and offer any assistance possible.

Employment retention and creation continues to be the primary objective of the Government. Since we launched the Action Plan for Jobs, more than 136,000 additional jobs have been created. In County Meath, the number of people employed in Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland supported companies increased by more than 1,600 or 16% in the period from 2011 to 2015, compared with more than 1,000 job losses in Enterprise Ireland and IDA Ireland supported companies in the period from 2008 until 2010, which amounted to a 15% decrease. In addition, the Meath local enterprise office supports 180 small businesses and micro-companies, which added more than 150 new jobs in 2014, an increase of 24%. At the same time, the number of people on the live register in County Meath has declined by more than 29%.

As part of the Government's €250 million regional Action Plan for Jobs, a specific mid-east region Action Plan for Jobs will be published. This will seek to build on the jobs progress which has already been made. The Minister, Deputy Richard Bruton, and Minister of State, Deputy Damien English, have already hosted a consultation with public and private bodies in the mid-east and the plan is in development. Enterprise Ireland, the IDA and the Meath local enterprise office will continue to work with local companies to increase the number of start-ups, grow exports and, ultimately, create the jobs we need.

I realise the Deputy's question is more specific and relates to a number of employees or former employees at the plant. Workplace Relations Commission customer service staff are available to meet the employees concerned to provide information and answer any questions on their current circumstances and statutory employment rights and entitlements.

Deputy Regina Doherty

I appreciate that the Minister of State is in a difficult position. If he does not have the answers today, perhaps he can get back to me in writing. Am I correct in thinking that the Department is aware that C&C is relocating jobs to the North of Ireland? It does not make sense given that it says the reason it is downsizing is the loss of a retailer by a private label product. I agree that I am here specifically on behalf of one gentleman who is representing the views of his colleagues who are losing their jobs. Their positions are being made redundant notwithstanding that the work is still there but being moved to the North of Ireland. That may be fine in a different context, but my real issue is that this gentleman is in his early 60s. He has worked probably all of his life for this company. He has worked for it for 34 years. In relocating his job to the North of Ireland for whatever reason, they are offering him two weeks statutory notice. It is disgraceful that he is being treated in this manner. Some of his colleagues are receiving three and a half and four weeks, which is more acceptable and palatable for those people who are unfortunate enough to be losing their jobs.

Can the Minister of State address the Workplace Relations Commission personnel he spoke to and put them in contact with me so that I can get them involved to represent this gentleman better than I can at the moment? The days of his redundancy notice period are running out. He is within seven days of being walked off the premises and having his car and phone taken off him. He will have no recourse at that stage. Can the Minister of State come back either today or tomorrow on the relevant personnel to engage with so that I can at least assist him in the final days of working for this company after 34 years?

Deputy Joe McHugh

It is important if there is an issue that it is not only highlighted but followed up. Certainly, I will ask the Minister and his officials to make direct contact with the Deputy on the issue. Whether it is creating a mechanism or communication line with the Workplace Relations Commission, we need to look at some action point. There are statutory protections for workers in the context of redundancy. Under the redundancy payments scheme, eligible employees with at least two years' continuous service in fully insurable employment are entitled to a minimum statutory lump sum payment on being made redundant. A redundancy situation arises where a business closes and ceases to trade. An employee is entitled to two weeks' pay for every year of service with a bonus week added on subject to the prevailing maximum ceiling on gross weekly pay, which is currently €600. The lump sum payment is tax free. In addition, employees are entitled to notice as per the Minimum Notice and Terms of Employment Act. I will certainly convey the Deputy's concern on specific and individual cases.

National Dementia Strategy

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for sanctioning this debate and the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Kathleen Lynch, for attending to take it. The community action on dementia project in County Mayo has been running for three years in a pilot stage. During that time, it has assisted more than 100 families who have a loved one with dementia to receive either a dementia adviser or home support service. The home support service delivered in excess of 7,000 hours of community-based, one-to-one care in 2015 alone, keeping our loved ones in our communities with the love and care of their families and out of hospitals. The project's dementia adviser, the first ever such position in Ireland, provides an emotional signposting and listening service and the experience of the post has fed into the national dementia strategy of which the Minister of State has charge. The project has reached out to more than 2,000 people across County Mayo to reduce the stigma surrounding dementia and it continues to bring education and information on dementia to national and secondary schools across the county. To date, it has reached almost 1,000 pupils. In addition, the service provides 30 telecare packages to individuals in their homes. The project database has more than 300 records of people with dementia and is currently in receipt of weekly referrals from medical and community-based professionals at a rate of between three and six a week. The HSE in Mayo is very happy with the impact of the project on the ground and supports it fully.

Why am I here? The difficulty is that the pilot has ended. On 18 December 2015, the funding will finish and the project in its current stage will finish. Despite many interventions and meetings with the HSE nationally, no indication has yet been given of the ability of the HSE to continue to fund this vital and important project. I spoke to the project manager earlier and she spoke of a conversation she had with one lady this morning who asked her what she was to do when the hospital says her mother is not suitable for long-term care but the project, which would have helped her to keep her mother at home, has no funding. She asked where she was to turn and who would care for her mother.

The Minister of State does not need to be told that this is the cruellest of diseases. However, it provokes amazing and heroic responses from family members on a daily basis across the length and breadth of the country. Dementia carers are, frankly, heroes. While they do not look for recognition, they need support. Many of them want to keep their loved ones in their communities and their homes. The project is all about that. One of the driving figures behind the project became involved with dementia through caring for her own father. Through her experience and the lack of available supports for her family, she established a day care centre herself with the support of a very good committee. She continues to raise nearly €60,000 a year for that centre through various events. That is commitment and love. That is what this project is about.

The €350,000 investment in the project over three years provided fantastic value for money. It kept people out of Mayo General Hospital and long-stay care and kept them in their homes where they were loved and cared for much better. That is what we want to continue. We want to continue to keep people in the community, but, more importantly, we want to continue to learn lessons from this project about families and dementia sufferers. We want to continue to provide education through the project so that the next generation of people will understand dementia and come to appreciate, in particular, that the disease is now beginning to reach a much lower age cohort than we are traditionally used to. I appeal to the Minister of State to ensure the HSE has the funding to keep the project going. It is a fantastic project providing fantastic value for money. More importantly, it respects dignity and provides care in the community.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Kathleen Lynch)

I thank Deputy Calleary for raising this matter. I cannot disagree with anything he said. I am very conscious of the impact of dementia not only on the individual, but on families and communities. That is why the four pilot projects were put in place.

It is estimated that there are approximately 50,000 people with dementia in Ireland today. These numbers are expected to increase to over 140,000 by 2041 as the number of older people in Ireland increases. For this reason, the Government launched the national dementia strategy in December 2014. The strategy recognises that people with dementia can live well for a number of years as long as there is timely access to an assessment and diagnosis and the right services and supports are in place. This is the case in relation to the grouping Deputy Calleary speaks of.

People living with dementia should be supported to stay as physically and mentally well as possible and should be encouraged to remain active participants in their communities. A dedicated office has been established within the HSE to lead the strategy's implementation.

While the initial emphasis was on doing things better within existing resources, a welcome boost was provided by the Atlantic Philanthropies which agreed a joint initiative with the Department of Health and the HSE to implement key elements of the strategy to 2017. This implementation programme represents a combined investment of €27.5 million, with Atlantic Philanthropies contributing €12 million and the HSE contributing the remainder. This will promote a greater focus on the timely diagnosis of dementia and the value of early intervention along with the long-term objective of making people generally more aware and understanding of the needs of people with dementia and of the contribution those with dementia continue to make to our society.

The initiative includes the roll-out of a programme of intensive home care packages for people with dementia, the provision of additional dementia-specific resources for general practitioners, GPs, and primary care teams and a dementia awareness campaign to promote a better understanding of dementia and its prevention. It is important to address stigma and promote the inclusion and involvement in society of those with dementia. The community action on dementia in Mayo project that Deputy Calleary referred to is one of four dementia pilot projects provided throughout the country by Genio over a three-year period to develop innovative supports for people with dementia to continue living well in their own communities. It has met this criterion exceptionally well. The main features of the Mayo project are the provision of community-wide education, awareness and training, the establishment of a mobile memory clinic, the provision of a dementia adviser to link with the person and family from the time of diagnosis, and the provision of assistive technology, as appropriate. The pilot phase of this project will come to an end on 18 December. A representative of the HSE director of social care has visited Mayo and the other Genio sites in Kinsale, Blackrock and south Tipperary to examine how they reflect the priorities of the national dementia strategy and to determine how the learning from these projects can be applied to other areas. The HSE will consider the funding position for the Mayo project in the context of its service plan for 2016. As the Deputy knows, that plan is imminent.

The four projects would not be in place but for Atlantic Philanthropies. We must keep talking about Atlantic Philanthropies, which is an incredible group of people. Mr. Chuck Feeney is a modern patriot. The learning from these projects must be rolled out throughout the country. It is not as if they will die away, but we must look to the service plan which will be delivered immediately. We are conscious of the need as well as of the incredible service that is being provided.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I thank the Minister of State and endorse everything that she said about Atlantic Philanthropies and Mr. Feeney. I welcome her endorsement of the community action on dementia in Mayo project which she stated had done everything exceptionally well. It has broken every boundary in what it set out to do. As such, it is important that it be continued. A gifted range of people are working on the project but they do not know whether they will have employment on 1 January. One hundred families have grown to depend on this project for their loved ones to live with them or in their communities, but they do not know where they will stand on 1 January.

I understand that, of the four projects, the one in south Tipperary has been given an indication of funding for 2016. If families in Tipperary are worthy of that indication, the families and people involved in the project in Mayo are equally as worthy.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

Yes.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The HSE people on the ground have endorsed the project. We cannot wait for months. We need an indication urgently to assure those employed by the project and, most important, the 100 families that do not know where they stand. This project has broken many boundaries in a field that needs boundaries broken. Let us not lose it. Let us have regard for these families, whose daily lives have been enhanced by the project's work.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I endorse everything that the Deputy has said. When we set off on this adventure three years ago, we were not sure what we would find. We had a plan and knew what we wanted to deliver but, as the Deputy rightly stated, the project has delivered more, and differently, than expected. We have learned that the large technology piece is not always what is important. Sometimes what is important is the reassurance or advice from the other end of the phone line as well as the knowledge that someone is there if needed. The other elements - the day service, being collected and having someone to sit with the person while someone else has a break - are also important. We cannot afford to lose them. The project in Mayo will be communicated with before the funding deadline.

Special Educational Needs Service Provision

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand that Deputy Lowry is providing one minute to Deputy Healy. Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Michael Lowry

Over the lifetime of the Government, the experience of the parents and teachers of children with special educational needs has become a serious national issue. Continually muddled Government policies on how to provide for such children, combined with the shortage of resources and non-availability of facilities, consign many to what can only be described as bureaucratic purgatory. These problems are exacerbated by parents being forced to lurch from crisis to crisis as they try to ensure their children receive the basic education appropriate to their needs while endeavouring to locate safe environments. All too often, the parents expend a large proportion of their earnings, not to mention months of precious time, only to find that the services are insufficient or they must wait weeks, months or even years before they can get therapy and support for their children.

With my Oireachtas colleagues, I attended a meeting last Monday in Scoil Aonghusa in Cashel. It is a co-educational school that facilitates 85 individuals with multiple physical, emotional and other learning difficulties. These pupils need immediate specialist services but receive little support or funding from the HSE. I am aware that this is a national issue, but another school in Cashel, Scoil Chormaic, which caters for 223 children and young adults, also faces the constant occurrence of minimal services.

The introduction of the progressive disability services for children and young people, which were established by the HSE to change the way in which services were provided, is a haphazard, unpredictable and Billy-to-Jack delivery of service and therapy. This project will not alleviate any problem. Services need to be delivered consistently, cohesively and in collaboration with parents and teachers. We need to start listening to the parents and teachers who care for these children every day. They are acutely aware of what needs to be undertaken and how the efficient delivery of such services can be fully achieved. Children with special needs should have access to all the specialist therapies and supports they require, not out of luxury, but out of necessity. "Lack of funding for services" is the Government's daily recited turn of phrase, but should we not find that funding? Should funding for children with special needs not be our first priority?

It is evident that the continued chaos in care and services is not the fault of psychologists and therapists. The problem is that their caseloads are too large to meet the needs of so many children. In the absence of services, our teachers are to be applauded for the incredible work they undertake to meet these children's needs and to provide after-school support to parents. We have heard the announcements of additional personnel, but those announcements hide the fighting, pleading and justification that schools and parents must make to get such posts.

Deputy Seamus Healy

I thank Deputy Lowry for allowing me to say a few words on this issue. The parents of children with special needs are continually under pressure. They speak constantly of having to fight for everything they get.

We attended a meeting in Scoil Aonghusa in Cashel on Monday night. It is a fine school that is offering an exceptional service to its students and support to families. It caters for 85 students. There was an effort to operate on the basis of a multidisciplinary team of teachers providing services including psychology, physiotherapy, and speech and language services, but unfortunately those resources are simply not adequate. The school simply does not have enough physiotherapy, psychology or speech and language hours. Additional hours need to be made available for the school if the children with special needs are to be provided with a proper service.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

I thank Deputies Lowry and Healy for raising the matter. The Government is committed to providing and developing services for children with special needs and to improving access by these children to therapy services in so far as that is possible within available resources. As Deputy Lowry will be aware, health-related therapy supports and interventions for such children can be accessed through both the HSE's primary care services and its disability services, depending on the level of need. Significant additional resources have been invested in recent years in the State's primary care and disability services with a view to enhancing therapy service provision. For example, additional investment of €20 million in 2013 has facilitated the recruitment of 260 prioritised front-line posts for primary care teams.

With regard to disability services, the HSE has recognised that its early intervention services and services for school-aged children with disabilities need to be standardised. To this end, a major reform of therapy resources for children with disabilities aged up to 18 years is currently under way. This involves pooling the resources of all service providers in defined geographical areas so that children receive their therapy interventions from multidisciplinary teams. The HSE's national programme on progressing disability services for children and young people from zero to 18 years aims to bring about equity of access to disability services and consistency of service delivery, with a clear pathway for children with disabilities and their families to services regardless of where they live, what school they go to or the nature of the individual child's difficulties.

An additional €4 million was allocated in 2014 to assist in implementing the programme, equating to approximately 80 additional therapy posts. Further investment of €4 million, equating to €6 million in a full year, has been provided this year to support its ongoing implementation. Full implementation of the programme is expected before the end of 2016.

The reorganisation of disability services in line with the Progressing Disability Services for Children and Young People programme is under way in south Tipperary. One multidisciplinary early intervention team has been established. Two teams for children aged zero to 18 are scheduled to be in place next year. These new arrangements will incorporate the existing early intervention service. Disability services for school-aged children in the region will continue to be provided by both the HSE and a range of non-statutory service providers until the new arrangements are in place.

At present, children attending Scoil Aonghusa special school in Cashel receive on-site speech and language therapy during the school term. Three sessions of physiotherapy per week are also provided. I am advised that the HSE south Tipperary community services have met the school's parent representative group on a number of occasions to date to discuss the provision of therapy services at the school. The HSE has indicated that the number of health-related therapy posts in south Tipperary is in line with the national average. The HSE is endeavouring to optimise service provision within the resources available pending the rolling out of the new model.

I assure the Deputy that improving access to therapy services for children in primary care and in disability services is a particular priority for the Government. In this context, further funding of €8 million is being provided in 2016 to expand the provision of speech and language therapy through primary care services and to support the reorganisation and expansion of speech and language and other therapies under the Progressing Disability Services programme. The HSE has indicated that it will further consider south Tipperary along with other regions when decisions on the allocation of this funding fall to be made, including in regard to supporting the full implementation of the Progressing Disability Services programme. I hope that is of some help to the Deputies.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Lowry. Is it agreed that Deputy Mattie McGrath may have 20 seconds of his time? Agreed.

Deputy Michael Lowry

I thank the Minister of State for her response, however inadequate it may be. At our meeting in Scoil Aonghusa last Monday night, we heard heartfelt appeals for help. Parents and teachers spoke with sincerity, emotion and passion about the consequences for children denied access to therapy services. The parents, who make enormous sacrifices to take care of their special children, are upset, disillusioned and bewildered by the lack of response to their needs. The dedicated and committed teachers who were present at the meeting are frustrated over the lost opportunity to enhance the children's ability arising from the lack of support and assistance from therapy specialists. As far as I am concerned, the necessary structures and systems are in place within the schools. There is no point in removing the children and moving them to centralised locations for the delivery of these services. What we should have is a multidisciplinary team comprising speech and language therapists, occupational therapists and psychologists. This needs to be formed and directly linked to the school.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank Deputy Lowry for allowing me a few seconds to appeal to the Minister of State and the bureaucrats in the HSE. I fully concur with what was said by Deputies Lowry and Healy. The children in question are the most affected in any school. They should be treated where they are and not dragged around the county to clinics that are already full and overflowing and to which people with special needs cannot go. The Minister of State should please show some compassion and human interest in these families.

Deputy Kathleen Lynch

We have taken advice, but not only from experts. I am not always enamoured with the advice of experts. We have taken advice and engaged exhaustively on how one should deliver a service. I really do accept fully what Deputy Lowry is saying in this instance, but most parents I meet say they are prepared to wait for a diagnosis if offered early intervention. They say that what they want is the intervention and therapy for their children. We are building up the service and ensuring it will continue to be built. The Deputies will know where the service needs to be from the amount of money invested and the posts put in place.

In the recent past, it was a matter of getting the diagnosis and the therapy afterwards. I always believed that was deeply unfair because I might be able to afford a diagnosis for my child while somebody next door might not and might have to wait until her child is five, six or seven to obtain a diagnosis from the HSE. Therefore, we are to put the intervention and therapies in place before the diagnosis. That is a more equitable way of proceeding.

In the past, one nearly had to sign up to a particular service before getting any type of therapy. We are old enough to know that, but we are now saying that if we are serious about mainstreaming children with disabilities, the parents should be able to choose where their children go to school and where they want to live. Therefore, the service needs to be available within their community such that they will not have to sign up to a service. I fully admit that we still do not have the necessary number of staff in place to deliver the type of service I envisage and that parents tell me they want. We are working on that. There will be additional resources and posts in this year's service plan. However, I hear what the Deputies are saying and will make sure that south Tipperary is considered when it comes to the allocation of the new posts.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

There are 12,500 children waiting.