Vol. 898 No. 3
I move:
That Dáil Éireann shall consider the Report of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications entitled "Report on the Regulation and Inspection of Gas Installers Operating in Ireland," copies of which were laid before Dáil Éireann on 8 July 2015.
We know the Minister, Deputy Alex White, has travelled from Brussels, so we thank him for being here.
I welcome the fact that the Report on the Regulation and Inspection of Gas Installers Operating in Ireland, which our committee published in July, is being debated this morning. I thank the Minister for attending to hear this debate and I acknowledge that he has just arrived back from a Council of Ministers meeting in Brussels.
As Chairman of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications, I am glad to outline the reasons we undertook the body of work. I will summarise the presentations of the main stakeholders and the rationale for the recommendations we made on the conclusion of our research and investigations. I thank my colleagues Deputy Michael Moynihan and Deputy Michael Colreavy, who were also on the working group. As we all know, committees operate on a cross-party basis.
The main purpose of this report is to consider the current system for the regulation, monitoring and inspection of installers of gas boilers. The committee members and I became aware, through representations, that although there is regulation, there is evidence to suggest that some individuals presenting themselves as gas installers are operating outside the law. Therefore, the committee formed the view that this matter warranted serious consideration. Owing to the strong potential for fatal accidents with a fuel as combustible as gas, we became very conscious of the dangers inherent in poor gas installation and servicing. We recall the high-profile tragic death in Kinsale a few years ago that resulted from carbon monoxide poisoning following a gas leak. I spoke to members of the bereaved family and noted that they wanted to see action in this area. It would be some consolation on their tragic loss.
One of the main stakeholders that made presentations to us was the Association of Plumbing and Heating Contractors Ireland, APHCI, which outlined its growing concerns regarding the industry. It believes that lives are at risk because of the failure of the regulatory system. The problem it sees is that the Register of Gas Installers of Ireland, RGII, polices and scrutinises those installers who are registered but does not proactively seek out or flush out the illegal operators. That is the kernel of the problem. The APHCI contends that some 100,000 illegal boilers have been installed up to the publication of our report in July of this year since the current regulatory system was introduced in Ireland in June 2009. It believes the market is awash with illegal operators and that there is a loss of revenue to the State as a consequence, in addition to the danger of explosions and all that follows, including death. The association contends legitimate operators are being driven out of the business. It claimed that approximately 30,000 gas boilers are sold in the State each year but only 12,000 are certified. Obviously, there is a problem. On 13 February 2015, the number of registered gas installers in the Republic was 2,775. By comparison, the number in Northern Ireland was 2,000. Since the Republic is much larger, there is a problem. The implication is that there are many illegal operators in the Republic. The Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, stated in 2009 that there were 4,984 gas installers at that time. Over 2,000 did not register, which tells its own story.
Under legislation, the APHCI noted that CER has responsibility for putting in place what is supposed to be a comprehensive system of safety. In June 2009, it set up RGII, whose remit is to regulate registered gas installers. With regard to the investigation of complaints made to it, it is not responsible for identifying illegal work or installers. This is a fundamental flaw in the system, according to the APHCI. It believes that no one takes responsibility for proactively identifying illegal works and operators. The system is not like that in Northern Ireland, where the inspector actively seeks to identify people who are carrying out illegal works. Therein lies the difference.
According to the APHCI, CER acknowledged that there was a problem in 2014 and that action was needed. However, the association contends that nothing has happened. The CER, whose viewpoint I want to outline, contends the regulatory system is working effectively. However, there is obviously disagreement. The association says there are few prosecutions and that fines range only from €250 to €500. In many cases, the Probation Act is applied.
The CER, which also made a presentation to us, highlighted a number of points. First, the gas installers who are on the register are on it because they have been deemed competent to be on it. They are insured and subject to audit and inspection by the RGII. That is the assurance gas users can take from using a registered gas installer. Nevertheless, the CER operates on the basis of continuous improvement and reviews. The schemes it runs are subject to continual review in order to determine where improvements can be made.
A key building block of the scheme, according to a representative of the CER, is its reliance on the public to act as the police, as it were, on the ground. It is important for the success of the scheme that the general public be made aware of why it is in place, its benefits and what people can do to protect their families and homes. The CER, in conjunction with RGII and other stakeholders, participates in several publicity campaigns on a yearly basis. These are designed to focus on the key message, which it tries to get across to the general public in an accessible manner. Essentially, the message is to use a registered gas installer to carry out work at home, as it is a legal requirement.
It also advertises through public engagement how people can contact it if they suspect work has been carried out in their home which is substandard or carried out by unregistered workers. Whenever it has a successful prosecution, it will advertise that fact as it will act as a further deterrent against illegal activities.
The recommendations speak for themselves. All the members of the working group and all the members in the committee were unanimous on Recommendation A which states:
It is clear from the evidence presented to the Committee that, despite the regulatory regime in place in Ireland since 2009 requiring the registration of gas boiler installers, illegal activity continues to take place and many boilers are being installed by individuals operating outside of the law. However, there was no consensus amongst the stakeholders as to the extent of the problem, and there are considerable shortcomings in terms of knowledge in this area. The Joint Committee therefore recommends that an independent expert or consultant be appointed to conduct a thorough investigation of this sector in order to arrive at a truer picture of the extent of illegal activity taking place. Part of this individual's remit could also be to make recommendations as to how best to address problems identified in his or her findings, in light of international best practice.
The second recommendation states:
The Joint Committee recommends that consideration be given to a legislative change providing that gas boilers only be sold to registered gas installers, or to consumers who provide evidence of having engaged a registered individual to carry out the necessary installation. A legislative requirement might also be considered in order to make it mandatory for merchants to publicly display material at points of sale to reinforce the message to the public of the benefits of using a registered gas installer.
In my opinion, if that were to happen, it would eliminate the problem at source. The third recommendation states:
The Joint Committee would urge Insurance Ireland to engage with the Commission for Energy Regulation in relation to the APHCI suggestion that the provision of home insurance be made conditional upon persons seeking insurance cover providing evidence, where applicable, of gas boilers being installed and serviced by registered gas installers.
The next recommendation states:
The current scheme for the registration of gas installers deals only with the competence of those installing in domestic settings and does not require individuals to be registered in the case of commercial premises.
At our launch of the report, a spokesperson for the Commission for Energy Regulation stated it was already taking in hand that recommendation. I am not sure what progress has been made on that since. The recommendation continues:
The Joint Committee is of the view that the Registered Gas Installer Scheme ought to be extended to include Non-Domestic Gas Works.
The final recommendation states:
The cost of subscriptions payable by APHCI members to the RGII at €175 (€50 for a trainee) per annum should be reviewed to establish if it is an impediment to illegal installers registering. The cost of certificates for the servicing of appliances (type 3), boiler replacement (type 2) and new boiler fit (type 1) should also be reviewed to ensure they are equitable, while the wording on the certificates might be improved.
This report was launched in July last and in my concluding remarks later, I will provide an update of what has and has not happened since.
I am pleased to accept this opportunity to respond to the Chairman of the joint committee on its report dated July 2015 regarding the regulation and inspection of gas installers operating in Ireland.
I welcome this report which makes a valuable contribution to the debate on gas safety and its regulation and I thank the Chairman of the committee, Deputy O'Mahony, and the members of the committee for their important and valuable work in this area and for the careful and assiduous nature with which they conducted this assessment and report.
The report deals with a matter which, while it is of national importance, nevertheless is not one for which I, as Minister, have direct responsibility. The Commission for Energy Regulation, CER, as Ireland's independent energy regulator, has the statutory responsibility for gas safety regulation. In this regard, much of the substance of the report falls directly within the CER's remit. Deputies will understand that my remarks must necessarily have regard to the statutory independence of the regulator in the conduct of its regulatory functions, including in respect of gas safety, and its accountability to the Oireachtas committee. For the purposes of this debate I will, therefore, only describe the actions the regulator has signalled it is taking on the various issues in the report. I am sure Deputies would agree that in the light of CER's independent regulatory role in gas safety, its views on the recommendations would be most relevant and helpful in the continuing debate on this valuable report.
I read the report of the joint committee with great interest. I need hardly say, of course, that the safety of domestic natural gas consumers, and the public in general, is of paramount importance. I wholeheartedly agree that it is necessary that we, as legislators and public representatives, must ensure that safety is placed high on the agenda, in so far as it is within our remit to do so.
In that context, it is now almost ten years since the Energy (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 2006 gave enhanced powers to the CER to include the regulation of the activities of natural gas undertakings and natural gas installers, with respect to safety; the promotion of natural gas safety; consultation with the National Standards Authority of Ireland regarding gas safety standards; and the establishment and implementation of a natural gas safety framework.
I am happy to place on record that I have every confidence that the CER continues to discharge its role in respect of gas safety in an exemplary manner through the ongoing operation of its gas safety regulatory framework. This framework was initially published in October 2007. As I have said, the CER is, of course, legally wholly independent in the performance of its functions and therefore none of its individual decisions is under consideration here.
I turn now to the recommendations in the report. The first recommendation of the joint committee was that an independent expert should be appointed to investigate the sector. At the committee's hearing, on 18 February 2015, the CER placed on record that it acknowledges that illegal activity is taking place. From a legal point of view, it is doing everything within its power to tackle the number of illegal operators. It also placed on record that it is happy at any time to engage with anyone who has further ideas to tackle illegal operators. The CER demonstrated to the committee how it is seeking to address the problem through a variety of means. These include investigations of all reported illegal activity, prosecutions when appropriate and promoting public awareness of both the benefits of using a registered gas installer, RGI, and the actual legal requirements in this regard.
The appointment of a consultant to carry out research into the extent of illegal activity would be a matter entirely within the operational remit of the CER. As Minister, I have no function in that regard. However, in this particular context I would like to remind Deputies that at the committee's hearing the CER stated that informal surveys of this nature have been carried out. It also stated that it has been engaging with the Central Statistics Office to attempt to assess the extent of the numbers involved.
In regard to the second recommendation of the joint committee which, briefly, was that there should be legislative compulsion to underpin a revised safety framework, any such legislation would of course come within the remit of my Department. Such legislative change would need a thorough examination under a number of headings, for example, feasibility, practicality, costs and impacts. There would be obvious crossovers with existing legislation in the consumer area, such as the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980. These practicalities would need to be looked at by other relevant Departments were that course to be taken.
Deputies may recall that, at the hearing on 18 February 2015, the CER stated that it had already engaged with merchants to propose the introduction of a voluntary scheme to restrict the sale of gas boilers to registered gas installers. It also stated that it had asked merchants to display publicity material at sales counters to reinforce the message to the public of the benefits of using a registered gas installer.
The third recommendation of the joint committee was that Insurance Ireland should engage with the CER so that insurance cover could be made conditional on boilers being installed and serviced by RGIs. I remind Deputies that at the committee hearing, the CER stated that it had already engaged with Insurance Ireland about such a proposal. Furtherance of this issue is of course a matter entirely between CER and Insurance Ireland.
The fourth recommendation of the joint committee was that the registered gas installer, RGI, scheme be extended to include non-domestic gas works. It is a matter of public record that in August 2014 the CER held a public consultation process on whether an extension of the present regulatory scheme to the non-domestic sphere was warranted and would bring benefits. As a result of this process, it decided to propose the introduction of non-domestic gas works into the regulatory model. The CER published its final decision paper in this matter on 12 October. The next stage will focus on implementation, including the development of legislation, engagement with relevant training bodies, and a publicity campaign.
The final recommendation of the joint committee was that the annual subscription to the RGI scheme be reviewed in order to establish whether it is an impediment to illegal installers registering. Such a matter is an operational one entirely within the statutory remit of the CER, in which I as Minister have no function. However, Deputies may be aware that the CER has, following a recent public procurement process, appointed a gas safety supervisory body, SSB, to regulate gas installers in Ireland. From January 2016, the RGII, Register of Gas Installers of Ireland Limited, will again be the safety supervisory body and will operate under the RGI brand. These arrangements will be in place until the end of 2022. Deputies will recall that RGII was first appointed as the gas SSB for the period from 2009 to the end of 2015. The new body has committed to not increasing the costs of certification during the term of its appointment. The CER will, however, continue to review the costs of certificates on an annual basis.
In conclusion, and respecting the regulatory independence of the CER and its accountability to the Oireachtas committee, I have described some of the steps that it has already taken in areas relevant to the report and about which it has informed industry stakeholders, energy consumers and the committee over the past number of months. It can clearly be seen that the CER is strongly committed to the issue of gas safety. It stated at the committee hearing in February that it operates on the basis of continuous improvement, and that its gas safety regime is subject to continual review in order to determine where improvements can be made. The CER stated that it remains committed to working with all stakeholders to continuously improve the gas installer regulatory model in Ireland. For my part, as Minister with responsibility for energy policy, I reiterate that I am fully confident in the manner in which the CER is discharging its statutory role in relation to safety. I thank members of the committee again for their work in preparing the report and bringing the matter to finality.
I welcome the discussion on this report and I also welcome the members of the APHCI in the Visitors Gallery, who have done tremendous work in bringing this matter to the floor of Dáil Éireann. I have met with them a number of times over the past year or two. Last January we met in the Fitzgerald Hotel in a meeting attended by more than 200 plumbers. The frustration they outlined on the floor of the meeting was clear for all to see. They have been harping on about this issue for a long time, and I am glad the Oireachtas committee took up the case, because this issue had been dismissed by various people, including the Commission for Energy Regulation, with which we engaged in 2013 and 2014 to try to resolve the many issues. Various State bodies and organisations were in charge of policing the market.
There was frustration among APHCI members and plumbers right throughout the country at what was, and possibly still is, happening with regard to unsupervised and unregulated people installing gas boilers, which is a very dangerous issue. I thank the chairman of the Joint Committee on Transport and Communications for allowing us to drive this through the committee with a full and frank discussion which related to all stakeholders. One of the best debates we had was a joint debate between the Commission for Energy Regulation and the APHCI, which dealt with what was outstanding and what were the key issues. One side laid its cards on the table and the other side came in the following day.
It is very important that an independent expert look at the issue, but one thing that was highlighted throughout the process was the question of whether the Commission for Energy Regulation had enough legislative powers to police this market. That is the crux of the issue, because everybody was passing the issues from one to the other, whether they were related to regulation, registration or anything else. The Act goes back almost ten years to 2006, and the Minister spoke about it, but we must ask if it is strong enough to deal with situations in which something goes wrong with the installation of a gas boiler or there is an accident or a tragedy. As politicians, we would all be clamouring for answers as to what should be done in such an event.
The Minister said other Departments had responsibility for certain aspects of the matter, but every piece of legislation that comes before Dáil Éireann affects every Department. It is vitally important that the Commission for Energy Regulation and the other Departments have the proper legislative tools to deal with these issues. It is important that this is moved on and not left simply as a recommendation of a joint committee. In my private discussions with the APHCI and the Commission for Energy Regulation during the summer of 2013 and 2014, it became clear that there was a shortcoming in what it could do. It will be necessary to have an interdepartmental input into legislation, but every other piece of legislation goes through the same process. As legislators, we are able to ensure the matter is followed through, and I ask the Minister to ensure that this happens.
There were other recommendations, such as those relating to home insurance, and we need to ensure that there are safeguards. Everybody needs to ensure they deal with professional people. The people who install gas boilers are extremely qualified and professional people. If people who are not properly trained and not competent install gas boilers, it is to the detriment of society in the long run, so all steps have to be taken. Would an insurance company insure a non-qualified driver on the roads?
It is as simple as that. The insurance industry must look at this. As I have said, at all times those involved from the APHCI have been absolutely professional in the amount of work they have done to bring this to our attention, as public representatives, and to bring it to the committee. It is a voluntary organisation. The amount of work they have done behind the scenes with the committee and the work they continue to do is remarkable. They have to be applauded in that regard. Sometimes, representative groups do not undertake the hard work, but these people did the hard work, although they all have their own jobs to do as well.
The point on insurance is something we have to consider. This is a solid report. The APHCI is very happy with the report and with the amount of publicity and time it is getting not only in the committee but in Dáil Éireann. We must ensure the recommendations are followed through. There is no point in letting it sit. Again, I call on the Minister to look at the insurance issue.
We can look at everything in the report and all the recommendations. What has happened since the report was produced? I know the Chairman is going to brief the Dáil shortly in respect of what has happened. The Oireachtas must be completely satisfied that the Commission for Energy Regulation is empowered with the proper tools to ensure that gas boilers and installations, whether they are domestic, commercial or industrial, are fitted to the highest possible standard and that there is a regulatory framework and a policing authority to ensure this is the case. It cannot be passed from Billy to Jack and from Jack to Billy. That will only lead to further frustrations. We have to be satisfied. We have examined the matter and the recommendation is clear.
Judging by what the Minister has said, this proposal would have an impact on a number of other headings. That is the way with all legislation, but I believe the Minister has accepted in his remarks that the Commission for Energy Regulation can only do the job that the Oireachtas empowers it to do. The commission may have shortcomings in other areas in respect of energy prices and so forth, but that is a debate for another day. Let us suppose I took only one of the recommendations and tried to ensure its implementation. I would ensure that when the representatives of the Commission for Energy Regulation sit down in front of the APHCI people at any future meetings, the commission is able to make the case that it has the framework to police what the APHCI is looking for. The APHCI is looking for something that is for the betterment and the security of society. Therefore, as legislators, we must ensure that the commission is empowered in that regard.
Again, I thank those involved in the APHCI for the work they have done and the time they gave me to discuss all aspects of this issue. I thank the plumbers who met in the Louis Fitzgerald Hotel in January. More than 200 plumbers met on a Tuesday afternoon when they had 101 different things to do. The concerns they raised and the passion with which they spoke on the issues are to be commended. I commend them on the amount of work they have done in the past two or three years since this issue first arose. They have continued to apply pressure to try to get it onto the floor of the Dáil. Now, we have to take it on to the next level. I call on the Minister to ensure that proper legislation is put in place to empower the regulatory bodies and ensure they have the power to implement this for the betterment of society.
I offer a big welcome to the APHCI members. It is good to see them in the Visitors Gallery. When I took on the brief of spokesman for communications, energy and natural resources, this was not a topic on my to-do list. Then one day I got a telephone call from a plumber in Lucan. He told me he was ringing because I was a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Transport and Communications. He told me he had serious concerns about the installation of boilers in Dublin and probably nationwide. I talked through the issue with him. He offered to take me to a housing estate to show me what he was talking about. I met that good man. He was able to point out to me, a layman, what was wrong. We were only looking at the installations externally; we did not look inside. To his trained eye, there were obvious deficits in the plumbing carried out. He was able to describe not only the deficits in the plumbing but also the risk they presented. The risk applies not only to the people in the house but people walking past the house in that housing estate. He said he could take me to many estates around Dublin where we would find the same problems.
The committee and the association heard that there have been in the region of 100,000 installations - I will not use the word "illegal" as that is the wrong word - by unregistered contractors in this country since 2009. There is some dispute over the figures. It may be a little more or a little less. It is frightening that we do not know for sure. This is not something that makes the headlines. We will not see a "Prime Time" programme about it until there is a disaster. God forbid that there will be a major incident. However, if there is a major incident, the spotlight will shine on us, because we are the people who can make the difference.
The committee has done invaluable work under the Chairman, Deputy John O'Mahony. Two things have struck me, and one of them is particularly strange. Let us suppose that there are in the region of 100,000 illegal installations. Only 45 prosecutions have been taken. I find that extraordinary. There is something wrong with either the legislation or the implementation of the legislation. This needs to be changed. A second point struck me. Much of the inspection work focused on the work of the registered contractors - in other words, the men and women who are doing it right. We have been expending considerable energy on people who do the right thing, register as contractors and put the association's stamp on the quality of their work. Yet there have been only 45 prosecutions after approximately 100,000 illegal installations. That makes no sense whatsoever. The focus must be on unregistered installers. That is the area of greatest potential risk. That is the gap we have to fill.
It is not necessary for me to go down through the various points made in the report. That would only represent repetition. I welcome the Minister's response on some of the issues. However, we need to do more in some areas. The joint committee recommended that an independent expert consultant be appointed. That matter is entirely within the remit of the Commission for Energy Regulation. The CER has said that informal surveys have been carried out and are being carried out. Furthermore, the commission has said it is engaging with the Central Statistics Office to assess the numbers involved. It is true that the CER is independent. I believe the CER will look at what we believe is important within this field, as legislators and representatives of the community.
I am sure the CER would welcome and respond to indications from the Government that this is an area in which concerns have been expressed.
The report also recommends legislative compulsion to underpin a revised safety framework. The Minister proposed the introduction of a voluntary scheme to restrict the sale of gas boilers to registered gas installers. I could nearly put money on it that a voluntary scheme would not work and that it would slip into misuse. It will have to be a compulsory scheme. From the Minister's response, there will be some movement in the negotiations between the CER and Insurance Ireland, but we need to remind the CER that we wish this to be implemented. The final recommendation is on the Register of Gas Installers of Ireland, RGII, scheme, and I understand the Minister's response on this.
The work of a committee does not and should not end with the production or launch of a report or with the tabling of a report in the Dáil. The work of a committee is done only when the necessary legislation, structures and practices are in place to fill the gaps to tackle the weaknesses identified in its discussions with the various bodies and associations involved. We have a little bit to go. The Minister's response outlines that things are happening, but they probably need a little bit of a nudge along. I hope there will not be an incident to shine the spotlight on us, and I hope people will not be able to say validly we were tardy or slow in our response to address the serious issues identified in the report.
I thank the Deputies for the very helpful contributions they made in the debate and I am pleased to have an opportunity to respond. As I said in my opening remarks, this is an issue of national importance which is recognised by the committee in the work it has done to bring the report forward. The safety of domestic natural gas consumers and the public in general is of paramount importance to all of us. We as legislators and public representatives must ensure safety is placed high on the agenda in so far as it is within our remit to do so. That said, I know Deputies understand the operational matters raised in the course of the report are outside my legal responsibility as Minister. Nevertheless, I repeat I have every confidence in the manner in which the regulator is discharging its responsibilities.
In my earlier reply to the Chairman, I recalled that the CER said at a committee hearing in February last that it operates on the basis of continual improvement and that its gas safety regime is subject to continual review to determine where improvements can be made. It is committed to working with all stakeholders to improve continually the gas installer regulatory model in Ireland.
Deputies will agree that from what has been publicly stated, the CER has engaged fully with the issues raised in the report. To recap, the CER has stated informal surveys of the extent of illegal activity have been carried out. It has engaged with the Central Statistics Office to attempt to assess the extent of the numbers involved, engaged with merchants to propose the introduction of a voluntary scheme to restrict the sale of gas boilers to registered gas installers, asked merchants to display publicity material at sales counters to reinforce the message to the public of the benefits of using a registered gas installer, and engaged with Insurance Ireland on the proposal that insurance cover should be made conditional on boilers being installed and serviced by registered gas installers. This is a matter of public record. Nevertheless, I remind the House that the CER's accountability for carrying out its functions in this area, as for all its remit, is not to me as Minister, but rather it is solely accountable to the committee. Therefore, in light of the CER's independent regulatory role in gas safety, its views and recommendations would be most relevant and helpful in the ongoing debate on the report.
I note that a number of points were made in the very helpful contributions of the Deputies. Deputy Moynihan asked whether there are sufficient powers in the legislation. There is always room for Members of the Oireachtas, particularly the relevant committee, to discuss whether powers set out in legislation are strong enough, but I do not see in the report any general objection to the powers or remit of the CER. The report makes two suggestions on legislative change on quite specific matters. It proposes a legislative change to provide that gas boilers only be sold to registered gas installers or to consumers who provide evidence of having engaged a registered individual. It also suggests that a legislative requirement might be considered to make it mandatory for merchants to display material publicly at points of sale. These are two specific suggestions to which I have responded in my earlier remarks. It is fair to say the report does not draw attention to any general deficit in the legislation in respect of the overall regulatory powers of the CER. With regard to the CER itself, and not only in the context of the recommendation regarding an independent expert, I state strongly to colleagues that the CER has expertise available to it and draws on it, and the CER is independent. If we look for expertise and independence, they are both to be found in the CER and how it works. These are my observations on what has been said.
I draw the attention of the House to a particular area. I have said that many of these matters are not within my remit as Minister, but the Department is involved in gas safety through its support for the operation of the gas technical standards committee, GTSC, which is a consultative committee of the National Standards Authority of Ireland, NSAI, with which Deputies are undoubtedly familiar. The Department provides financial, technical and administrative support for the GTSC's work. It was formed in 1981 and comprises people from the gas industry, the Government, the education sector and consultancy and various State bodies who have given their time and expertise to progress the work of the GTSC. I acknowledge the work of these many individuals, including many retired individuals, who provide their services to the GTSC pro bono. The work of the GTSC in the area of gas safety standards is largely done away from the public gaze but it is, nevertheless, important work. Standards make things work properly and ensure public safety.
I thank the Chairman and members of the joint committee for their very valuable report.
The valuable and important work the committee does is manifest in this report. I again encourage the committee to engage directly with the CER and elicit its further views on the recommendations contained in the report.
I thank the Minister, Deputies Moynihan and Colreavy and the members of the APHCI who are in the Visitors Gallery. The input of the APHCI members has been very constructive and that was reflected in the committee.
I respect what the Minister said and I agree with him that the CER is the independent body responsible for this area. However, common-sense recommendations have been made by the committee to solve a problem that obviously exists. Even the CER admits there is a problem. If that body needs new tools to deal with it, there should be a way of doing whatever needs to be done, whether that is heads being knocked together or legislation. Ultimately, that is the winning line for everybody - the public, public safety, the industry and for the legislation. If a disaster happened, and some disasters have happened where deaths have occurred, we would all scramble to ask why this or that was not done. Barriers and obstacles would be removed at that stage. My contention is that prevention is always better than cure. That is the main point.
To refer to what has happened since, there has been little or no progress, although some things are moving. I was happy on the day we launched the report that there was to be engagement between the APHCI and the CER on how to move forward. However, that has not happened.
One of the recommendations was that an independent expert or consultant be appointed to conduct a thorough investigation. The CER response to that is that the report does not state that the CER must appoint this independent expert. I can say on behalf of my colleagues that if it needs our authority because the report did not say it, there would be unanimous support for saying "Yes". Somebody must establish it and if the CER can do it, that is fine. The CER has admitted there is a problem, so we must get the facts. The APHCI has offered to share the cost of appointing somebody to examine it, if required. This matter must be advanced.
Regarding the recommendation that consideration be given to legislative change, I understand the steps that must be taken for legislative change. The CER has written to the Department in support of that recommendation so I hope that the required communication takes place. I hope it gets whatever tools it believes are required in this situation. These matters take time but if the CER supports that recommendation, progress must be made on it.
As regards engaging with Insurance Ireland, there are possibilities in whatever engagement that takes place in respect of the third recommendation. Making the provision of home insurance conditional, as the recommendation states, provides a simple solution. It would be helpful if something happened in this area. The CER has said its representatives have met Insurance Ireland, but what was the outcome of that?
The key issue here is that, at present, the CER is fully targeted at those who are registered. It is different in Northern Ireland where people who are not registered are actively pursued. There must be some type of change in the policy here. Again, if the CER requires extra tools to operate that, something must be put in place to facilitate it.
The report recommends that the cost of subscriptions payable by APHCI members to the RGII should be reviewed. I understand no review was carried out. The RGII has been re-appointed for another seven-year term, so obviously nothing has happened on that recommendation.
In summary, there is a problem here and recommendations have been made to solve it. There are obstacles but we must work together to secure a positive outcome for everybody. The Minister said the CER is accountable to the committee. I do not know who will be members of committees in a few months, but I would have assumed that the CER was responsible to the Minister rather than to us. Certainly, if I am a member or chairman of a committee in this area, I will engage with the CER again to follow up on this. The working group, which includes my two colleagues across the floor, will not let go of it until it is solved to everybody's satisfaction. This is far beyond party politics. It is an issue that must be resolved. All the stakeholders are constructively involved in it and we must continue that process until we get a satisfactory conclusion.
