Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 9 Dec 2015

Vol. 900 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 14, motion re Supplementary Estimates for public services, Votes 6, 7, 12, 17, 20, 21, 26, 29, 30, 31, 32, 37, 38 and 40, back from committee; and No. 2, Legal Services Regulation Bill 2011 - amendments from the Seanad (resumed). It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn on the conclusion of Private Members’ business; No. 14, Votes 6, 7, 12, 17, 20, 21, 26, 29, 30, 31, 32, 37, 38 and 40, shall be moved together immediately after the Order of Business and the proceedings thereon shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 20 minutes by one question, and the following arrangements shall apply: the speech of a Minister or Minister of State and of the main spokespersons for Fianna Fáil, Sinn Féin and the Technical Group, who shall be called upon in that order, shall not exceed five minutes in each case, and such Members may share their time, and any division demanded thereon shall be taken forthwith, followed by a suspension of the sitting under Standing Order 23(1); Private Members' business, which shall be No. 205, motion re the establishment of an independent anti-corruption agency (resumed), shall be taken no later than 8.30 p.m. and shall, if not previously concluded, be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes.

Tomorrow's business after Oral Questions shall be No. 2, Legal Services Regulation Bill 2011 - amendments from the Seanad (resumed); No. 36, Criminal Justice (Burglary of Dwellings) Bill 2015 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; No. 2a, International Protection Bill 2015 [Seanad] - Second Stage; and No. 2b, Planning and Development (Amendment) Bill 2015 [Seanad] - Second Stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are three proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with No. 14, motion re Supplementary Estimates for public services, agreed to?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is not agreed to. It seems extraordinary that we are dealing with Supplementary Estimates involving hundreds of millions, if not billions, of euro while the plenary session of the Dáil is not in a position to have any serious debate about them. One Supplementary Estimate alone involves €665 million for the health service, which was disgracefully treated in the past, but a total of only 20 minutes will be allocated to all of them. By any yardstick, that represents a dramatic lack of accountability on the part of individual Departments to the full assembly of the Dáil. Large amounts of taxpayers' money are being spent without any real debate or discussion on them. They have been discussed in various committees but there is a plenary session here, too, and people who are not members of individual committees-----

Deputy Arthur Spring

They can attend.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They may not have the opportunity.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is entitled to a short contribution. I think he has made his point.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We are talking about €1.6 billion of taxpayers' money being rushed through in 20 minutes. It is a disgrace. This is some democratic revolution. There will be five minutes for each spokesperson.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point. This is the Order of Business.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Parliament is being consistently undermined by Government.

Deputy Peter Mathews

It is the law of large numbers.

The Taoiseach

This is the return of the Estimates to the plenary session of the House. They were all discussed individually in committee, and party spokespersons and anybody else who wished had full entitlement to go to those discussions and ask any questions they wanted for as long as they wished. We are not going to have the same thing in here. They were discussed individually and in detail. I am not sure whether Deputy Martin's spokespersons turned up, but they had the opportunity to debate them at any length they wished in the place they should be debated in detail, namely, in committee.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is not the point. I would like to discuss them. Are we to abolish the plenary session of the Dáil?

The Taoiseach

Did Deputy Martin check whether his spokespersons turned up? What questions did they ask? Did they make a contribution?

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is about every Member of the House having the opportunity. Does the Taoiseach understand Parliament?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Does Deputy Martin understand Parliament?

Question, "That the proposal for dealing with No. 14 be agreed to", put and declared carried.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I know that the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, laid out the red carpet for Donald Trump recently in County Clare, but I take it the Government will not lay out the red carpet for the disgraceful and inflammatory remarks Mr. Trump made in the course of the American presidential election about banning Muslims from coming into the United States.

An Ceann Comhairle

On proposed legislation, Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I am coming to that. That is incitement to hatred and it is important that the Government formally makes it clear to the Republican Party in the United States that such remarks are viewed with abhorrence in Ireland and are something we would not tolerate in our democracy. In that context, when does the Taoiseach believe the criminal justice Bill will be brought forward? The remarks warrant a Government response to Mr. Trump and to the Republican Party in America, because it is a new low in terms of normal democracy.

Can the Taoiseach indicate when the Red Cross (amendment) Bill is to be published, given the role the Red Cross will be given in assisting with the horrendous flooding across the country? Can he indicate when we can expect the consumer rights Bill? It is stated in the programme for Government that this will deal with the fact that consumers are being ripped off across the board in many areas. Can the Taoiseach tell us when the public health (retail licensing of tobacco products) Bill will come forward? Although e-cigarettes are being sold in most shopping centres and main streets across the country, there is no licensing system. The legislation has been promised, but when will it be published?

On page 3 of the programme for Government there is a very clear commitment that it will give schools, hospitals and other public service bodies new freedoms, within strict budgets and new accountability systems, to set their own staffing needs, automate routine processes and adapt work practices to local staff and customer needs. That is just one commitment in the programme for Government that reflects what a great book of fiction it was when it was published back in 2011.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Deputy, this is about promised legislation. You are eight minutes in.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I have gone through the chapter on commitments in respect of health but, although year after year and month after month the Taoiseach assured me they would all be implemented, the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, came along and said we were not implementing universal health insurance at all and, what is more, it will never happen.

Deputy Robert Dowds

What about all the reports that Deputy Martin commissioned?

Deputy Micheál Martin

Teachers in schools hate the Croke Park hours. They call it detention for teachers, as they have to stay in school for an extra couple of hours.

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy. This is about promised legislation.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I do not think they realise there is a paragraph in the programme for Government that states that teachers do not have to do this at all. Instead, the Government will allow schools to set their own staffing needs, automate routine processes and adapt work practices to local staff and customer needs. When is that going to be implemented?

An Ceann Comhairle

After eight minutes, thank you.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is after five years.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are other Deputies in the Chamber. The Deputy spent eight minutes asking about promised legislation.

The Taoiseach

I referred yesterday to comments made in the United States that are not acceptable to me or to people in this country. Free speech is one thing, but the comments made are unacceptable.

The heads of the Red Cross (amendment) Bill were cleared on 24 November. That Bill will be available early in the new year. The public health tobacco (retail licensing of tobacco products) Bill is due next year as well. Yesterday, we published the Public Health (Alcohol) Bill. In respect of schools and so forth, the Minister has outlined the opportunities for schools through the summer works scheme and the short courses they can put in place.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Will the Taoiseach keep them in for the summer?

The Taoiseach

Deputy Martin referred to words of fiction. I recall some of his words: "My own view is that some stories have emerged that shouldn't happen. The idea of there not being enough trolleys when you go into a hospital - that should never happen with the level of investment that is going in now. Using the ambulances and stretchers in the car park, in my view that's not acceptable. With the level of money going in it should be possible to organise yourself to avoid that happening." Back in 2004 the Deputy was very vociferous-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Taoiseach is going backwards.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

We want to go forward.

The Taoiseach

-----about the fact that lack of investment created all kinds of difficulties. However, he was the person in charge who would not accept any responsibility for what he was supposed to be doing.

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

The Taoiseach might be aware that there has been serious criticism of the International Protection Bill from all the non-governmental organisations, NGOs, that work with asylum seekers and refugees in the State. They are devastated about the missed opportunity and the failure to consult the working group on issues with the direct provision centres and the profound failures that have occurred. The Bill is due to be debated on Second Stage in the House tomorrow. Will the Government withdraw the Bill and take on board the serious concerns of the respected NGOs that work with refugees and asylum seekers?

Second, the "RTE Investigates" programme has had a hell of a run, but let us not forget its fantastic exposé of the criminal gangs that control prostitution throughout the island. There is legislation in the North that decriminalises women in prostitution and imposes the criminal offence on the user, who is almost always a man. Members must look at that documentary-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Is there promised legislation?

Deputy Pádraig Mac Lochlainn

-----and understand. Will the Taoiseach ensure that the Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill, which will deal with those issues, is introduced before the Christmas recess? There is serious concern that there will be two different legal realities on this island which obviously will have implications for the State. Will the Taoiseach address that before he calls an election? I urge him to do it before the Christmas recess.

The Taoiseach

Deputy Mac Lochlainn need not worry about the election at all. The Criminal Law (Sexual Offences) Bill is currently before the Seanad, where I expect many Members will raise the issues the Deputy has raised. I commend RTE on the programme it produced. This Bill is a Government priority.

The Second Stage debate on the International Protection Bill will be held in the House tomorrow. I expect a good discussion on it. I hope Members will have constructive suggestions to make that will be helpful to the Minister in implementing it. Clearly, there is a deal of work to be done in the future in terms of the implications of that Bill, and the Government looks forward to the participation of Members and their constructive views on how they believe the matter can be advanced and implemented.

Deputy Pat Deering

Much concern has been expressed in recent days about the takeover of a number of meat plants throughout the country by one individual and the ABP Food Group. For example, it has taken over Slaney Foods. It has now become a potentially dominant player in the market. The Competition and Consumer Protection Act was passed by the Oireachtas a year ago but no regulations have been put in place to cover matters such as this. When will those regulations be introduced, because there are serious matters coming down the line?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy is correct that the legislation was passed in July 2014. I will take up the matter with the Minister for Agriculture, Food and the Marine, Deputy Coveney, for a response in respect of his responsibility in this area and with the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Bruton, who deals with competition and the consumer.

Deputy Arthur Spring

When can we expect the gambling control Bill and the sale of alcohol Bill to be brought to the House? These are two areas where addiction can cause terrible strife not only in the person's life but also in society and in their families. With regard to gambling, the use of credit cards is becoming prevalent in online gambling and I encounter an increasing number of people at my office who have built up debts with credit cards. Second, the sale of cheap alcohol and house parties are causing problems for the Garda and publicans alike.

The Taoiseach

That is an important point. Both Bills are scheduled for early next year.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

The wildlife (amendment) Bill is to provide for certain matters related to the natural heritage, but it has not yet been approved by the Government. Legislation relating to wildlife has been blamed for delays on many infrastructure projects and, indeed, delays in flood relief programmes, which is topical at present. Will this legislation be referred to a committee where stakeholders can give their views on these issues?

The Taoiseach

There is a Bill and it will go before the committee. The wildlife around Castleblakeney can feature in that when the discussions take place.

Deputy Michael P. Kitt

I look forward to that. I was on the committee that dealt with the original Bill.

Deputy Seán Ó Fearghaíl

I wish to raise the Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill again. This Bill was introduced in the Seanad and Committee Stage in the Dáil was completed in March 2013. The Bill has profound implications for people who have had convictions imposed on them and who now want to move on with their lives. They are being impeded from doing that due to the lack of legal provision to deal with spent convictions. What has happened to the Bill? For God's sake, can we bring it back into the system and expedite its passage?

The Taoiseach

It is on Report Stage. Perhaps the Deputy would raise that matter at the Whips meeting.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

With regard to the Minerals Development Bill and the environmental liability Bill, the National Parks and Wildlife Service and the fisheries boards will have to recognise that cleaning out rivers is of paramount importance. Allowances will have to made in order that farmers can clean out rivers, which will alleviate much of the flooding.

An Ceann Comhairle

To what legislation is the Deputy referring?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The Minerals Development Bill and the environmental liability Bill. The Taoiseach knows what I am talking about. Since the cleaning of rivers has stopped, there has been an increase in flooding.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy made his point.

The Taoiseach

The Minerals Development Bill was published last July and is awaiting Second Stage. I cannot foresee it being dealt with before the recess. With regard to fisheries boards and cleaning out rivers, a number of State agencies are involved in these matters-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

They need to wake up to reality.

The Taoiseach

-----and, as the Deputy knows, it can be quite difficult to get agreement on the best thing to do.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Lives are more important than fish.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

The Minister for Education and Skills indicated this morning that the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill will not be brought to the Dáil during the Government's term. Will the Taoiseach explain why that Bill has not been prioritised and, indeed, if his party objected to it? Would the Taoiseach agree that the shelving of the schools admissions Bill represents a failure, particularly for the Labour Party, of the reform programme with regard to education? There have been failures on the three issues of the schools admissions Bill, divestment and junior certificate reform-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy has made his point.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

-----which had been put forward as reform in the Department of Education and Skills under the Labour Party.

The minimum wage legislation is a related topic. The national minimum wage is due to increase to €9.15 in January. Will organisations funded by Pobal have their funding increased in order that they can pay the minimum wage-----

An Ceann Comhairle

That is a separate matter. It is not a matter for the Order of Business.

Deputy Charlie McConalogue

-----to their workers who will be due that payment in January? I understand Pobal is refusing to pay the funding required to the organisations so they can pay the increased minimum wage to workers.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should table a parliamentary question on that.

The Taoiseach

It is due to pressure of business. The question about Pobal could be dealt with as a Topical Issue if the Ceann Comhairle decides to let the Deputy raise it.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

Plans are being worked out on the harmonisation of penalty points between the North and South of our country. An agreement between the UK and here on how this should be implemented is at an advanced stage. The road traffic Bill 2015 is intended to address this. When will it be introduced? Will it be before the Government gives way over the next while?

The Taoiseach

The next North-South Ministerial Council is on Friday. Following the Stormont House Agreement, we are committed to dealing with criminality and lawlessness on both sides of the Border through a variety of mechanisms, including this.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Have the heads of the criminal procedure Bill on pre-trial procedures been cleared and is it likely to come before the House at an early stage? The mediation Bill is important proposed legislation. Have the heads of the mediation Bill been cleared and will the Bill come before the House in the near future?

The Taoiseach

The criminal procedure Bill was cleared in April and the mediation Bill was also cleared, but it will be next year.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

To follow up on Deputy Ellis's point on the road traffic Bill, which deals with drug driving, the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport said it would definitely be passed before Christmas. As such, only a few days are left. Is there a priority list of legislation vis-à-vis a couple of other important Bills mentioned this morning? Is there a priority list for the Ministers opposite of Bills that will be passed before they go to the country a few weeks after Christmas? Most importantly, is the road traffic Bill one of them?

The Taoiseach

It is going to Cabinet next week and it will certainly be published. We have a lot of complaints about rushing legislation through, but I expect that if it comes to Cabinet next week and is approved, it will be published.

Deputy Thomas P. Broughan

What about the others? What about the priority list?

The Taoiseach

There is a packed agenda there.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

That is gone away with the flood.

An Ceann Comhairle

We now move on to the Land and Conveyancing Law Reform Bill 2015. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I indicated, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat, please.

Deputy Peter Mathews

A Cheann Comhairle, this is undemocratic.

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat. I tell you to resume your seat when I am on my feet.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I am appealing to the House at this stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am on my feet.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I am appealing to the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am on my feet. I will tell you something, when you decide to apologise to the House for your behaviour, not just yesterday, but on other days, totally ignoring the Chair and the rules-----

Deputy Derek Keating

Hear, hear.

Deputy Peter Mathews

A Cheann Comhairle-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Sit down. Please, sit down. After you apologise, I will then call you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

You ignored me as an elected Member of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I did not ignore you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

You did ignore me. I object to this.

An Ceann Comhairle

When you decide to apologise, I will consider calling you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Apologise for what?

An Ceann Comhairle

Your behaviour.

Deputy Peter Mathews

My behaviour has been absolutely flawless and polite.

An Ceann Comhairle

Yes. Well, thank you. I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I appeal to the Taoiseach. Taoiseach-----

The Taoiseach

I am hearing the Deputy.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Good.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sorry, Taoiseach, it is none of your business, with the greatest of respect to you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I ask the Taoiseach, who has a majority----

Deputy Derek Keating

Address the Ceann Comhairle. We have procedures.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask Deputy Mattie McGrath to get on his feet and move his Bill.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I want to ask the Taoiseach a question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mathews, resume your seat or you will be leaving once again.

Deputy Peter Mathews

He gave the House an undertaking, as did his Tánaiste, to introduce legislation and have it enacted and operational before Christmas. There are four working days left.

An Ceann Comhairle

Resume your seat or you will be taking another walk today.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Please, a Cheann Comhairle, this is just absurd.

An Ceann Comhairle

This time you might be out for three days. Resume your seat and when you apologise to the House, I will consider calling you in the future.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I will apologise to the House if it asks me to apologise.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you. Sit down.

Deputy Peter Mathews

The House has not asked me to apologise.

An Ceann Comhairle

Sit down and do not disturb Deputy McGrath. I have called him.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I am being very fair. This is absurd.

An Ceann Comhairle

Your behaviour is absurd.

Deputy Peter Mathews

You ignored a parliamentarian elected to the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

I will continue to do so as long as you totally ignore the rules of the House.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I do not ignore the rules. I have always obeyed them.

An Ceann Comhairle

We will leave it for others to decide that.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Please take a vote on it.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I would not go that far, Peter.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Mattie McGrath.