Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 26 Jan 2016

Vol. 904 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. 13, motion re referral to joint committee of proposed approval by Dáil Éireann of the National Cultural Institutions Act 1997 (section 44) (Variation of Indemnity Amount) Order 2016; No. 13a, Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill 2012 [Seanad] – motion to instruct the committee; No. 13b, Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill 2012 [Seanad] - Financial Resolution; and No. 33, Technological Universities Bill 2015 - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages. It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that in the event a division is in progress at the time fixed for taking Private Members' business, the Dáil shall sit later than 9 p.m. tonight and shall adjourn on the adjournment of Private Members' business, which shall be No. 215, motion re social housing, and shall, if not previously concluded, adjourn after 90 minutes; and Nos. 13, 13a and 13b shall be decided without debate.

Tomorrow's business after Oral Questions shall be No. 33, Technological Universities Bill 2015 - Report and Final Stages (Resumed); No. 34 - Criminal Justice (Spent Convictions) Bill 2012 [Seanad] - Order for Report, Report and Final Stages; and No. 1, Medical Practitioners (Amendment) Bill 2014 [Seanad] - Second Stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to be put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with the late sitting agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Nos. 13, 13a and 13b, agreed to? Agreed.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Potentially, we are heading into perhaps the last week of this House. The date has been in the Taoiseach's head for quite a long time. I merely want to commend the Taoiseach and the Government on their capacity for self-assessment. The prospect of the chapter in the programme for Government dealing with fairness, in particular, in dealing with the health service, will rank as probably the greatest act of political fiction ever written. It is tremendous stuff.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

Deputy Martin should know all about that.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Five years ago, the following was stated in the programme for Government:

This Government will introduce Universal Health Insurance with equal access to care for all. Under this system there will be no discrimination between patients on the grounds of income or insurance status. The two-tier system of unequal access to hospital care will end.

The Universal Health Insurance system will be designed according to the European principle of social solidarity: access will be according to need and payment will be according to ability to pay. The principle of social solidarity will underpin all relevant legislation.

As a statutory system of health insurance, guaranteed by the State, the Universal Health Insurance system will not be subject to European or national competition law.

This Government will act speedily to reduce costs in the delivery of both public and private health care and in the administration of the health care system.

I will not read out the entire chapter on the health service but it goes on. The Government promised legislation for universal primary care under legislation to be called the universal primary care Act. Are the heads of the Bill available? It was to be brought in. The claimants of drugs on the long-term illness scheme, at a cost of €17 million, was to be introduced. It read very well.

Deputy Damien English

I did not think the Deputy read reports.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It states:

A system of Universal Health Insurance (UHI) will be introduced by 2016, with the legislative and organisational groundwork for the system complete within this Government’s term of office. UHI will provide guaranteed access to care for all in public and private hospitals on the same basis as the privately-insured have now.

There is another full page on the universal health insurance Act, which is promised in the programme for Government, and on how hospitals and clinics will participate in supplying care under UHI, and so on. On the third page about UHI it states, "Under UHI public hospitals will no longer be managed by the HSE."

An Ceann Comhairle

Where are we going?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

We are rambling.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is on promised legislation.

Deputy Peter Mathews

It is the programme for Government.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is a fair point, a Cheann Comhairle. This is all promised legislation, which never arrived.

Deputy Robert Troy

It never came, like many of the Government's promises.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy's Government promised it ten years ago.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not need your assistance thank you, Deputy Durkan.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

I apologise. I just cannot bear this nonsense.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Would the Taoiseach agree that it is a great work of fiction and that none of the legislation has arrived?

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy is very familiar with fiction.

Deputy Micheál Martin

For five years, I have been asking for these Acts periodically. Up to approximately three months ago, the Taoiseach kept saying there were delays but they were coming. Only in the past three months has the Minister for Health, Deputy Varadkar, ditched the entire chapter on universal health insurance. Will the Taoiseach confirm that he misled the people on it five years ago and that it has been a spectacular failure of implementation? Can he confirm that it belongs, and has always belonged, to the realm of fantasy in terms of political commitments and promises and creates serious doubt about any commitments he makes in health or any other area? What the Taoiseach said about health did not materialise.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy should know about that.

Deputy Micheál Martin

No research or homework was put into the universal health insurance project.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

This is like a Second Stage speech.

Deputy Micheál Martin

We were told it would happen. The pathways are detailed on the fifth page, starting with the enactment of the legislative basis for UHI. It did not happen, and I do not know why. Maybe the Taoiseach can give some indication. Can he confirm that it is unlikely to happen, given that we are, potentially, in the last week of the Dáil?

The Taoiseach attempted to introduce self assessment for the junior certificate. There was much objection by teachers. In the Taoiseach's self assessment of his record, he gave himself 93%. I begin to understand why the teachers have concerns about self assessment.

An Ceann Comhairle

Where are we going?

Deputy Micheál Martin

If all our schools had a similar pattern of self assessment, it would reduce our education system to ridicule. I have a far greater understanding of teachers' concerns about self assessment, given the Taoiseach and Tánaiste's self assessments.

Can the Taoiseach indicate how the report of the banking inquiry will be laid before the House and the arrangements for statements?

(Interruptions).

Deputy Micheál Martin

I always like to facilitate the Chief Whip in briefing the Taoiseach.

Deputy Bernard J. Durkan

The Deputy is so nice.

Deputy Micheál Martin

He is a decent guy. Regarding taxation-----

An Ceann Comhairle

You are getting a great run. There are other Deputies here.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I appreciate it. I am nearly finished. Can the Taoiseach clarify when the taxation and certain other matters (international mutual assistance) Bill will be published and whether it will allow for an extension of the maximum period of four years over which a taxpayer can reclaim any amounts he or she has overpaid to the Revenue?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy read out sections of the programme for Government. I have been upfront about it. There are areas on which we have not been able to deliver, including universal health insurance. The Deputy asked why. Given the total collapse of the economy, there were no resources to drive any of the programmes to the extent one would wish. The Dutch health insurance system was not appropriate in Ireland's case, and we always made this point. The Minister has made it very clear that we have not been able to introduce universal health insurance, but the priority remains to introduce universal health care, which will be paid for by an insurance scheme. It will be introduced at the end of the lifetime of the next Administration.

Deputy Micheál Martin

It is hardly credible that the Taoiseach would say that.

The Taoiseach

It is not hard to credit. At that stage, there will be a universal health care system based on primary and community care and home care packages and on an increased capacity to invest in hospitals, medical personnel such as consultants, doctors and nurses, and other public services such as the Garda. Templemore was closed for some reason, which the Deputy might explain some time.

Deputy Robert Troy

Why did the Government leave it closed for three and a half years?

The Taoiseach

These are all reasons it is critical the momentum of growth pattern the country is on must be kept up to provide the resources to invest in all those public services. I will come back to the Deputy on the tax issue he raised.

The Chief Whip will move a motion tomorrow for the publication of the report of the banking inquiry. On Thursday morning, there will be an opportunity to debate it here, starting with contributions from the Chairman of the inquiry, Deputy Ciarán Lynch, and the members of the inquiry. They have laboured long and hard during the past 12 months in dealing with various elements of the inquiry.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

Between the two political speeches, I thought for a moment the election campaign had already started. I wish to ask about the health information Bill and the patient safety licensing Bill.

Deputy Micheál Martin

They have ditched those Bills too.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I know they have. Last year, at a meeting of the health committee, the Minister gave a commitment that he would bring forward a Bill which would include a duty of candour and a policy of open disclosure for doctors and other health professionals. It was in response to countless distressing examples of families having to go to court and force health professionals to reveal the facts when mistakes in treatment had occurred. In recent weeks, the Minister has decided it will not happen, and said that to legislate in this way would be counterproductive. I do not know what made him change his mind. Maybe the Taoiseach can shed some light on why the Bill will not be published.

The Taoiseach has reported that the monitoring of journalists' phones is a matter of grave concern. The review the Minister has ordered under the Communications (Retention of Data) Act will apply only to journalists. Would the Taoiseach agree, given the number of requests for monitoring, that it is a bigger issue than just journalists? Would he consider that the review should be broadened to include other members of society?

The Taoiseach

Work is proceeding on the health information Bill. It is not in the priority list and will not be published before the Dáil ends its duty. The Minister had intended to introduce a particular kind of Bill on open disclosure. This will not go ahead in the manner he first envisaged.

Regarding the review, the Government made a decision that a former Chief Justice should examine the application and operation of the law in this case. When the allegations were made that GSOC had been bugged, people were very strongly of the opinion that GSOC should be given a full range of powers and investigative facilities. However, when the recent incident came to light, they changed their tune and said we had to consider the question of the law.

I would say that this is not a simple matter. The question of the use, retention and retrieval of data is one that has other implications in terms of terrorist activities and relations between different countries and between companies and countries. For now, the Government has made a clear decision that a former Chief Justice should review the operation of the law as it applies at the moment to members of the journalistic profession and report to the Minister for Justice and Equality inside three months. I think that is appropriate and warranted.

Deputy Billy Timmins

The Taoiseach will be aware that the Heritage Bill 2016 is in the Seanad this week. Could he give us an assurance that this small but important Bill, which deals with canals and wildlife, will be dealt with in this Chamber before the dissolution of the Dáil? If it could be taken next Tuesday, my understanding is that there would be agreement right across the House on its contents.

The Taoiseach

Obviously, I do not speak for the illustrious Members of the Upper House. I cannot say how long they might wish to spend on the Committee Stage debate on the Heritage Bill 2016. After that debate, the Bill will be considered on Report Stage in the Seanad before coming back here. It is like a telescope beginning to shorten. I cannot guarantee Deputy Timmins that the Bill will be dealt with finally and fully before this House rises.

Deputy Robert Troy

The Taoiseach and my party leader spoke earlier about the programme for Government in the context of health. The programme for Government talks about giving "equal access to [health] for all" our citizens. I do not know whether the Taoiseach is aware that one citizen in Ireland suffers from Degos disease. Just 40 or 50 people in the world suffer from it. Does the Taoiseach think it is right or proper that a woman from my constituency has been refused access to a life-saving drug due to its cost?

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold it a second now, Deputy.

Deputy Robert Troy

Does the Taoiseach think this is right and proper? Does he think it is a fair reflection of his time in Government? The programme for Government promised equal access to our health services. I ask the Taoiseach quite sincerely to look into this individual case.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows he cannot raise this matter on the Order of Business.

Deputy Robert Troy

I am raising it in the context of the programme for Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

If the Deputy tables it as a Topical Issue, I will consider it favourably.

Deputy Robert Troy

I appreciate that, a Cheann Comhairle, but we are talking about a very serious issue.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows I cannot have people raising issues that are outside what is allowed.

Deputy Robert Troy

Just one person in the whole of the island of Ireland suffers from this disease.

An Ceann Comhairle

I appreciate its importance and I would be only too pleased to consider the Deputy's request.

Deputy Robert Troy

Thank you, a Cheann Comhairle. I ask for your indulgence while I raise a second issue. The flooding in Athlone-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Hold on a second now, Deputy, please.

Deputy Robert Troy

The Taoiseach-----

An Ceann Comhairle

This is the Order of Business. The Deputy should ask about promised legislation.

Deputy Robert Troy

We are in the dying days of this Government. The Taoiseach went to Athlone.

An Ceann Comhairle

That is fine.

Deputy Robert Troy

He made a promise to the people of the Carrick O'Brien and Golden Island areas that-----

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy should take it up privately with the Taoiseach.

Deputy Robert Troy

-----the compensation package that had been introduced would be expanded to include those who are not eligible for rates.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to adhere to the instructions of the Chair.

Deputy Robert Troy

Four weeks later, nothing has happened.

An Ceann Comhairle

Okay. I think the Deputy has made his point now.

Deputy Robert Troy

The people whose businesses were flooded continue to have no access to funding.

An Ceann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to resume his seat.

Deputy Robert Troy

The Taoiseach met them at first hand. He promised he would listen to their concerns.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would the Deputy listen to me for a minute?

Deputy Robert Troy

He promised he would come back to them. Four weeks later, he has not done so.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy is showing total disrespect to the Chair.

Deputy Robert Troy

I apologise, a Cheann Comhairle.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy knows quite well-----

Deputy Robert Troy

I have always shown the height of respect to the Chair in my five years as a Member of this House.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----what he can and cannot raise.

Deputy Robert Troy

It is a pity the Taoiseach would not show the same respect to the people of Athlone.

Deputy Frank Feighan

Come on.

An Ceann Comhairle

I know it is an important issue. I know all that, but this is the Order of Business.

Deputy Robert Troy

I accept that, a Cheann Comhairle. I would appreciate it if the Taoiseach would at least acknowledge what I have raised here today.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. The Taoiseach has to-----

Deputy Robert Troy

I ask him fulfil his promise to the people of Athlone by extending the scheme as promised.

An Ceann Comhairle

Excuse me, Deputy. The Taoiseach is subject to the same Standing Orders as you are. Please resume your seat. You have made your point. I call Deputy Mathews on promised legislation.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Am I right in saying I may also refer to the programme for Government?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

No.

An Ceann Comhairle

To which programme for Government does Deputy Mathews refer?

Deputy Peter Mathews

I refer to the programme for Government which is now ending.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is he speaking about the next one?

Deputy Peter Mathews

No. It is now in its last week.

An Ceann Comhairle

If it is to do with promised legislation, it is in order.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Deputy Martin justifiably said that this is a moment for a bit of self-reflection.

An Ceann Comhairle

No. We do not have reflection on the Order of Business, as far as I am concerned.

Deputy Peter Mathews

For God's sake.

An Ceann Comhairle

This is about promised legislation.

Deputy Peter Mathews

A Cheann Comhairle, please.

An Ceann Comhairle

Ask your question, please.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Okay. The Government promised that there would be "burden-sharing" on the losses of the private banking sector. That was a promise in the programme for Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

It is not a promise on the Order of Business. We have been through this before

Deputy Peter Mathews

A Cheann Comhairle, my patience is at its wits' end.

An Ceann Comhairle

Just stick with it, thank you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I feel that I am being bullied at this stage.

An Ceann Comhairle

You are not being bullied.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I do, and I am saying the word advisedly. Please allow me to contribute.

An Ceann Comhairle

You had better not accuse the Chair of bullying.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I have been here when there were 11 Members in the House, plus the Taoiseach, plus yourself.

An Ceann Comhairle

Excuse me, Deputy.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I had my hand up for ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

You have been at this for the last number of years, never mind today.

Deputy Peter Mathews

For God's sake.

An Ceann Comhairle

I have told you consistently that-----

Deputy Peter Mathews

I care for the people of this country.

An Ceann Comhairle

-----there are certain things you can raise on the Order of Business.

Deputy Peter Mathews

They have been served by a Government with a massive majority for five years.

Deputy Robert Troy

They have not been served. They have been ill served.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mathews, you will be taking another walk if you are not careful. Now make up your mind. You either stick-----

Deputy Peter Mathews

Would you please stop bullying me? I am asking you to stop bullying me.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Oh my God.

An Ceann Comhairle

I am not bullying you. I am not bullying you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

You are. This is the programme for Government.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, I ask you to withdraw that remark.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I am not withdrawing the remark.

An Ceann Comhairle

Well then, leave the House, please.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I will.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I think it is a shame.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you. Leave the House. I am not taking that abuse from you any more.

Deputy Peter Mathews

Taoiseach, I think you should stand up and stop this nonsense.

An Ceann Comhairle

Would you please leave the House?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

You will be missed, Peter.

Deputy Peter Mathews

I do. It is disgraceful behaviour.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

You will be missed.

Deputy Peter Mathews

There is one week to go.

Deputy Peter Mathews withdrew from the Chamber.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Feighan.

Deputy Frank Feighan

On promised legislation, I wonder when the national monuments Bill will come before the House. Our national heritage needs to be protected and regulated. As certain structures and sites in this country are of national importance and are certainly worthy of State protection, the national monuments Bill should come before the House sooner rather than later.

The Taoiseach

There is still some work to be done on that Bill. I will report progress to Deputy Feighan on where the officials are with it at the moment.