Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Jun 2016

Vol. 912 No. 1

Order of Business

The Taoiseach

It is proposed to take No. a11, motion re Standing Order 41 (Priority Questions Rota); and No. 5, Single Resolution Board (Loan Facility Agreement) Bill 2016 - Order for Second Stage and Second Stage.

It is proposed, notwithstanding anything in Standing Orders, that No. a11 shall be decided without debate; Private Members' business, which shall be No. 71 – motion re motor insurance, shall be also taken tomorrow after the Order of Business and shall be brought to a conclusion after 90 minutes and the following time limits and sequence of speakers shall apply: proposer, 40 minutes; Government, 20 minutes; Sinn Féin, 20 minutes; Labour, ten minutes; AAA-PBP, ten minutes; Independents 4 Change, ten minutes; Rural Alliance Group, ten minutes; Social Democrats-Green Party group, ten minutes; proposer, 20 minutes; Government, 20 minutes; and proposer, to reply, ten minutes.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two proposals to put to the House. Is the proposal for dealing with item a11, the motion regarding Standing Order 41 (Priority Questions Rota) without debate agreed to? Agreed. Is the proposal for dealing with Private Members' business today and tomorrow agreed to? Agreed. I call Deputy Micheál Martin on the Order of Business.

Deputy Micheál Martin

In the programme for legislation this session, which was published this morning, and in the confidence and supply agreement to facilitate a Fine Gael-led minority Government between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael it was very explicitly stated: "The Government will, within six weeks of its appointment, introduce and support legislation in the Oireachtas to suspend domestic water charges for a period of nine months from the end of the current billing cycle." The programme for legislation on the Water Services Bill proposes "To suspend the water charges for nine months and establish an External Advisory Body", and it states "Pre-Legislation Scrutiny to be determined". The establishment of an external advisory body in the same legislation as the suspension of water charges is not part of the original agreement. Will the Taoiseach confirm to the House that it is the Government's intention to fulfil the letter and spirit of the agreement and that the legislation to suspend domestic water charges for a period of nine months will be introduced to deal with the current billing cycle and will not have any other additions? If the provision to "establish an External Advisory Body" is put in, it will delay unnecessarily the legislation to suspend water charges and it will not happen within the six week timeframe. Whatever the Department or anybody else wants, there is a very clear political agreement in terms of legislation to suspend water charges for a period of nine months and I would appreciate the Taoiseach's confirmation that it is the Government's intention to do that.

There is also a commitment in the programme for Government that "Full regard will be had to any new evidence which emerges which would be likely to definitely establish the cause of the fire at Stardust". That is the Stardust fire inquiry. Will the Taoiseach confirm if there is any new evidence available and if there are plans to commence an inquiry because the language in the programme for Government is extremely difficult to understand? It is difficult to ascertain what direction it is pointing towards.

The national disability inclusion strategy is in the programme for Government. Will the Taoiseach confirm whether it has commenced and what format it will take? The disability sector is in a huge state of crisis in terms of access to services. All the providers are in dire straits in terms of financial allocations, moneys available to them, respite, residential and day cases, and the provision of therapies. It is in a crisis and I do not think there is an appreciation of that at Government level.

We wish all students who have commenced the leaving certificate and junior certificate examinations our best wishes and every success and that they achieve their best within their potential. There have been cuts applied in recent years in DEIS schools which resulted in more vulnerability in students in disadvantaged areas. There is an interesting commitment in the programme for Government, on which the Taoiseach might throw some light, "to narrow the gap between DEIS and non-DEIS schools, and examine how students outside of DEIS can be better supported". Will the Taoiseach indicate what the Government has in mind for that?

The Taoiseach

In respect of Deputy Martin's first question, let me say that the Government is committed to legislating for both the suspension of charges for nine months and the establishment of an advisory board for Irish Water. In view of the timeframe, the impending legislation will concentrate on the suspension of water charges as per the programme for Government and as per the agreement with Deputy Martin's party. The impending legislation will concentrate on dealing with the question of the suspension of the water charges for nine months and the Government is fully committed to legislating for the external advisory body.

Deputy Martin mentioned disability which is covered on page 70 and 71 of the programme for Government. The Minister of State with responsibility for disability issues, Deputy Finian McGrath, has a very extensive budget and will obviously deal with the issues that Deputy Martin has quite rightly raised. I will have the Minister for Education and Skills respond to Deputy Martin on the narrowing of the range between DEIS and non-DEIS schools.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The programme for Government commits to developing and publishing "an updated National Heritage Plan that sets out policies for the protection and promotion of our built and natural heritage". The High Court ruled on Moore Street three weeks ago and the order will come into full effect in two weeks unless the Minister or developer appeals the decision. The court recognised, as has the National Museum, the historic importance of Moore Street. There is growing concern that the Minister is planning to appeal the High Court decision. Will the Taoiseach make clear that will not be the case? Will he ask the Minister to ensure the battlefield site is part of any updated national heritage plan? Will he state the Government's opposition to any proposal to extend planning permission to any developer?

The programme for Government states the Government will "honour our commitment to recognise the State of Palestine". The Taoiseach will recollect the Oireachtas voted in accordance with that commitment. Last week, the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, participated in a conference in Paris to prepare for a peace conference later this year. That is just a little flicker of hope against a background of a peace process which really does not exist. The conditions for Palestinian families in the West Bank and Gaza are worsening. The recent reports have exposed the use by the Israeli forces of forced expulsions, home demolitions, thefts and settlement construction. In the first three months of 2016, the number of demolitions per month of either private property or international or EU-funded projects increased to 165. We need to show leadership on this issue. I have said this many times. Will the Government recognise the state of Palestine now and not at some vague point in the future? Will the Taoiseach ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to brief Opposition spokespersons on the Paris conference?

The Taoiseach

I will ask the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to brief the Deputy and anybody else on that. It might be no harm if we had a debate on the Palestinian situation in due course. It is an issue of considerable importance to Irish people. I was in New York when the Palestinian flag was flown over the United Nations headquarters for the first time. Obviously, most countries recognise a two-state solution to the conflict, which has gone on since 1948 or shortly thereafter. The boundaries have changed and are being changed on a fairly regular basis. I will ask the Minister to brief Deputy Adams.

The Deputy mentioned the Moore Street monument. The judge has given his verdict in this case, and it is a long judgment. The Minister has not decided to appeal the case, but it might be necessary to seek clarification on one element of the judgment not about the right of the State or the Minister of the day to declare an entity a national monument, but about the judge's finding on what the State's rights are in carrying out work on a national monument in terms of restoring it, rectifying it or whatever. As I understand it, it is not a matter of wanting to appeal the case. There is a requirement for clarification in order for the State to do work it might wish to do in respect of any national monument - not just the one on Moore Street - and that is an issue the judge identified in his judgment. That needs to be clarified in the interest of the State's being able to do work, and fund it, on any monument in the time ahead. When I get an absolute decision, I will advise the House.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Functions vested in Departments cannot, under the Ministers and Secretaries Acts, be carried out under the direction of two different Ministers at the same time. With regard to two functions of Government, namely, the post office network and the national broadband service, what exactly is the Government's intention? Will statutory responsibility for those two programmes - post offices and broadband - be vested in the Department of communications, climate change and natural resources or the Department of rural development, rural affairs, arts and the Gaeltacht? If not, and if the Minister for communications, climate change and natural resources is to continue to be responsible for these matters, as I believe the Ministers and secretaries legislation requires him to be, what role then is envisaged for the Minister for rural development, rural affairs, arts and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Humphreys? Is she to exercise any authority under law or is she simply to have some sort of mock title with no resources, no staff, no Vote and no statutory responsibility for these issues?

I asked the Tánaiste last week about the second matter I want to raise, which is becoming more urgent. Will the Government produce a stability programme update, SPU? Will an SPU be submitted to the European Commission? This morning, the Irish Fiscal Advisory Council, IFAC, commented on the April SPU, which the Taoiseach will recall was simply an "as you are" SPU devised by the outgoing Government, with no policy decisions because we could not make them. Increases in Estimates have been made to Departments, so if changes are to be made in the parameters of the budget, will an SPU be submitted, and when will we have sight of it? We do not know what the Estimates for this year are, although the SPU is devised to represent the parameters for next year's budget. If we are to have any input into the budgetary cycle for next year, we must have detailed debate on the budgetary proposals for this year. When will those Estimates and a Revised Book of Estimates be presented to the House?

The Taoiseach

I expect that the adjusted Estimates being published now will be debated here next week in plenary session and in committees in the House.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Sorry, have the Revised Estimates been signed off?

The Taoiseach

For 2016.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

They have been signed off by the Government?

The Taoiseach

They were signed off by Government this morning. Those details will now become available and will be debated here in plenary session or in committee, as is appropriate.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

When will we see those?

The Taoiseach

They will be published now, I expect. The Minister has signed off on them and Government has signed off on them.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Is it a new Revised Book of Estimates-----

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

-----or is it individual Estimates?

The Taoiseach

Individual Estimates but with the overall figures included.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

So it is a new Revised Book of Estimates?

The Taoiseach

Yes, sanctioned this morning by the Cabinet. That is for 2016. The national economic discourse will take place on 24 or 25 June in Dublin Castle, hosted by the Ministers for Finance and Public Expenditure and Reform, and with a full debate here as well. The preparation for the 2017 Estimates and the budget for 2017 will commence after the Estimates have been signed off for 2016 and voted through the House.

Second, on the question Deputy Howlin raised about broadband with respect to the two Ministers, he is quite correct. The position is that the management of the tender and the contract for the State to supply broadband services throughout the country is the responsibility of the Minister for Communications, Energy and Natural Resources, and will remain the responsibility of that Minister. When the contract has been awarded, the emphasis shifts to the Minister for regional and rural affairs, who will have responsibility for the roll-out of task forces in each local authority to make that happen. The responsibility for the contract, the tender and all of that work lies with the Minister for communications, while the roll-out of the contract and the task forces in each local authority area will be the responsibility of the Minister for regional and rural affairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Coppinger.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

And the post offices?

The Taoiseach

The post offices are the same; they will be in the Department of the Minister for Arts, Heritage and the Gaeltacht, Deputy Humphreys.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The post offices are shifting from the Department of Communications-----

An Ceann Comhairle

Please, Deputy. I call Deputy Coppinger.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I did not hear it. I cannot hear the Taoiseach.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy cannot hear the Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach

I have explained about the tender and the awarding of the contract.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Now you know what it is like for us.

The Taoiseach

Responsibility for the post offices shifts to the Minister for regional and rural affairs.

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Coppinger. My apologies for that.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Can the Taoiseach tell the House when the Minister for Education and Skills will introduce the Bill on school patronage that he spoke about? He must agree that the expectation and demand among a growing number of people is for equality in education, and one would have thought that the priority of the Minister would be to outlaw discrimination against children on the basis of their religion. I wonder if the Taoiseach read Colette Browne's article. I am not one for plugging the Irish Independent, but I do on this occasion. The headline states that children will pay the price for surrender on the baptism barrier. I ask the Taoiseach to re-examine that, because the Bill we are hearing about would lead to the segregation of children several times a week - at least once a day - for religious instruction. It has been well proven that this carries into the playground, where children cluster into groups with those of their own ethnic background. Is the Taoiseach going for the easy option in regard to this, the one he believes the Catholic Church will accept and that will not rock its boat? Is he aware that only two schools were divested by the Catholic Church since this entire process was mooted under the former Minister, Ruairí Quinn? It would seem there is no appetite on behalf of the Catholic Church to surrender control, but it is accepting this as the best situation it can get, and it seems to be well disposed to it. However, it has been pointed out by Atheist Ireland that the consequence of the Bill is that it could make the situation worse because some Catholic schools would become less Catholic-----

An Ceann Comhairle

We cannot go into a debate on the potential of the Bill.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

I am concluding, a Cheann Comhairle. Other schools will become more Catholic, but what we could see is schools not being available to those who have no faith. I ask the Taoiseach to reconsider going down this road and allow for the fact that there is now huge diversity in this country. He should move with the times.

Deputy Joan Burton

On the same issue, with regard to the priority legislation listed for publication this session, there is the Education (Admission to Schools) Bill, which is about the provisions regarding the enrolment of pupils in schools and a requirement for schools to operate enrolment policies in a transparent fashion. The pre-legislative scrutiny took place in March 2014, but from the conversations and interviews given by the Minister in public, it sounds as though this is potentially entirely new legislation.

An Ceann Comhairle

Let us hear from the Taoiseach.

Deputy Joan Burton

Only last week we were given the list of legislation so will the Taoiseach clarify exactly what is happening? It is a really important area as it concerns the type of access that children, including those who may not have been baptised and whose parents do not profess a particular religious faith, will have, if any, to the local school system.

The Taoiseach

This divestment of patronage in schools was initiated by a former Minister for Education and Skills, former Deputy Ruairí Quinn. The Archbishop of Dublin pointed out that the Catholic Church has too many schools and wishes to divest numbers of these to other patrons, whether that was Educate Together or whatever. That process did not measure up to the targets that the Minister had in mind because of practical difficulties and circumstances in different places around the country.

It is perfectly in order for any patron to express the wish to have its ethos in its own school. It is important to note that is the issue here. The basic aim of the Government is to use economic success to create a fair and compassionate society, and education is involved as one of the areas in that regard. The Government is anxious to provide more choice for parents and we are determined to make it easier for parents, particularly parents whose children are not Catholic, to enrol their children in multidenominational schools where they wish to do so. That is why the programme for Government commits to reaching 400 non-denominational and multidenominational schools by 2030. That is an ambitious target and it represents more than a tripling of the current rate of transfer of Catholic schools to multidenominational patrons.

The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has articulated a strategy for how he plans to deliver on that and he wants to implement it. Providing additional multidenominational schools is the quickest and most straightforward way of dealing with the very complex issue of providing choice for parents. It is important to note that this issue only arises in respect of 20% of schools that are oversubscribed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

It does not.

The Taoiseach

We have chosen to go down the road of dealing with this by providing more multidenominational schools. For the information of Deputy Coppinger, we are advised that there would potentially be very significant constitutional issues in terms of the rights of religious expression in attempting to require through legislation that a Catholic school would admit a non-Catholic ahead of a Catholic. Therefore, rather than risk lengthy legal challenges in the courts and a potential referendum, adding multidenominational schools would be a much easier way to deal with this right of choice for parents.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

There is nothing against that in the Constitution.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to find another way to address the issue.

The Taoiseach

The Minister, Deputy Bruton, will discuss this with the Oireachtas committee. The Bill introduced by the former Minister, Deputy Jan O'Sullivan, some time ago did not deal with this issue. It is an element that the Minister, Deputy Bruton, would be quite happy to discuss with the Oireachtas committee.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

On a point of order-----

An Ceann Comhairle

There is no point of order on the Order of Business.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

You allowed the Taoiseach say something completely wrong last week and he did not have to correct it.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy must find another way of addressing the matter. Perhaps you could raise it on the Adjournment.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

Will the Taoiseach confirm that the Cabinet discussed the preparation of legislation for the IBRC Cregan inquiry? Is there a timeline for that and the changing of the terms of reference for the inquiry?

The €12 million diverted from mental health appears now to have been, more or less, put back into the mental health area. It was diverted, we were told, because there was insufficient time to recruit the staff. Is it envisaged that the money will be diverted for the recruitment of staff and is there some sort of a changed mechanism for doing that?

The other day in a debate, the Taoiseach made some erroneous points relating to the eighth amendment to the Constitution, particularly that there had been several referenda about the eighth amendment. Will he take the opportunity to correct the record on that particular issue? We have not had a referendum on it for 30 years and there are different elements.

The Taoiseach

Following the meeting I had with the Deputy and other parties last week, I can confirm that this morning the Government approved the drafting of a Bill in respect of the general scheme of the commissions of investigation dealing with IBRC. That was the approval of the urgent drafting of legislation to enhance the powers of the commission of investigation into IBRC along the lines of a general scheme that we discussed, together with all the consequent challenges that lie therein. Second, the Government noted the approach proposed regarding the revision of the terms of reference for the commission of investigation into the Irish Bank Resolution Corporation following consultations by me and Ministers with members of the Opposition parties. We discussed the drafting of legislation to allow for this in modular form, to have terms of reference to allow an investigation into the Siteserv issue, which is a matter of public concern raised here on many occasions, and the allowing of future modules to be inserted into that, if necessary. Approval was given for that this morning.

An Ceann Comhairle

There are two other matters.

The Taoiseach

The Minister for Health met representatives of the Psychiatric Nurses Association of Ireland last Friday. The money has been restored in full for what was originally intended for mental health and the Minister of State, Deputy McEntee, will outline the details of how it is to be spent. With regard to recruitment, there will be a focus on attracting psychiatric nurses back to Ireland and more places for psychiatric nursing training.

I answered a question to Deputy Bríd Smith last week on the eighth amendment. This was put into the Constitution in 1983 and in February 1992 there was a Supreme Court judgment in the X case. In 1992, there was also a referendum to reverse the X case judgment and that referendum was defeated, and there was also a referendum on the right to travel, which was passed. In the same year there was a referendum on the right to information, which was also passed. In 2002, there was a referendum to reverse the X case judgment and that was narrowly defeated. I am just getting the chronological sequence right.

Although I know it is not the Deputy's intention to have this treated in any way as a political football, it is a sensitive and profound issue that must be teased out very carefully with regard to action that might be taken by the people. There would be a citizens' assembly and the Dáil process to establish it if there is a consensus for change. That is very necessary and what I intend to do.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Is that the Taoiseach correcting the record?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Taoiseach - turf.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Turf, is it?

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Is it fair to say that the last Government made a grave error in banning farmers from cutting turf in certain bogs? I am referring to the priority legislation, the wildlife (amendment) Bill. Is it factual to say the last Government made a grave error in stopping farmers from cutting turf on certain bogs?

A second issue is that long-serving and dedicated staff of the Central Remedial Clinic are in the Mercer IPT pension scheme and were horrified recently to be told that their pensions were being suspended. They were not consulted on any possible rescue package. They are public servants, identical to the other 250 staff entitled to a public service pension. It is an awful position for those people. The Minister for Social Protection is reviewing legislation on pensions so I would be grateful for an answer on those two very important issues.

An Ceann Comhairle

Will the Taoiseach speak very briefly on those two matters?

The Taoiseach

I will raise that with-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

Turf and pensions.

An Ceann Comhairle

Turf and pensions.

The Taoiseach

The two go hand in hand. I will raise that with the Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Varadkar, and will ask him to reply to Deputy Healy-Rae. In respect of the first issue the Deputy raised, clearly the appropriate time to have a deeper analysis of what the European directive actually meant would have been when it was being drafted in the first instance, many years ago now. As Deputy Healy-Rae is aware, when directives are signed off, they are binding. The situation then arose whereby particular bogs were deemed to be exceptionally sensitive under that directive and therefore were outside the remit of turf cutting. Perhaps if the issue had been looked at in a different way in the very beginning, it might not have been-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

To decode that, was it a mistake or not?

An Ceann Comhairle

I call Deputy Scanlon.

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

Under the commitment in the programme for Government regarding the care of the elderly, may I outline two cases to the Taoiseach? There has been a debate on this today. These two cases came across my desk in the past ten days. One concerns a 93 year old woman discharged to the care of a single middle-aged son with half an hour a day for four days a week. Another case involves a 93 year old woman being discharged to a pensioner son on his own with half an hour morning and evening four days a week.

An Ceann Comhairle

Is home care the issue?

Deputy Eamon Scanlon

This was debated earlier. It is very urgent and needs to be addressed. If we are to show care, support and dignity to elderly people, something has to be done. I ask that some of the €500 million that has been allocated to health be diverted. Using his own fingers, the Taoiseach can tell that although the money has not been cut, the 4% year-on-year increase in demand for the service is cutting the money and we need to get more money into that scheme to try to provide some kind of dignity, as the cost of a nursing home is €1,100 a week.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes the Order of Business. My apologies to the nine other Deputies who had indicated.