Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 14 Jun 2016

Vol. 913 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Could I quickly take the opportunity to articulate my deepest sympathies and those of the Fianna Fáil Party at the appalling mass murder in the Pulse nightclub in Orlando last Saturday night? Our thoughts and prayers are with all those who have been bereaved and with the victims. It was an assault on the entire LGBT community in the US and globally. It represented a fundamental attack on the essence of our liberal, free democratic society and the immense destruction that can be wreaked by access to weaponry, which wreaked such havoc among young people enjoying a normal Saturday night out. May they rest in peace.

On Leaders' Questions proper, I want to put it to the Taoiseach - I raised this issue during the last Dáil - that as revelations emerge and as the level of the investigations get deeper, the Government's position on Project Eagle, the sale of Project Eagle by NAMA, becomes more untenable by the day, that is, the sense that there is nothing to investigate down here or that there is no necessity for the Government of the Irish Republic to be overly concerned about this particular deal. I do not believe that position is credible. The sales process, whether we like it or not or whether Nama likes it or not, was not robust, was not competitive and did not secure the best outcome. There are huge ethical questions over the entire sale of that asset. As we know, there was €7 million in an offshore account. We know there are allegations of fixers' fees. We know that PIMCO went to NAMA and said that third parties were looking for fees. At that stage NAMA said it forced PIMCO to withdraw but PIMCO said it voluntarily withdrew. However, that does not matter, the point is that Cerberus came in and used the same third parties or legal structures and we ended up with the sale at a very steep discount. We are talking about assets with a book value of more than €5 billion. NAMA purchased them for €2 billion and they were sold at a €400 million loss on NAMA's purchase price but the bottom line is that the Irish taxpayer has lost out substantially as a result of this particular deal.

The UK's National Crime Agency is investigating this. There have been two arrests and there are rumours of more arrests on the way. It is being investigated in the United States. The Northern Ireland finance committee has had an inquiry. At the very least, NAMA should have attended that inquiry. It is the biggest sale since the agency was established and there are huge concerns about it. Yet we, in the Republic, seem to have adopted an attitude that there is nothing to see here, that everything is fine on this side of the equation.

I put it to the Taoiseach that at the time that PIMCO revealed that people were seeking fees, surely that was the time for the entire deal to be called off, for both NAMA and the Minister for Finance, who was alerted to it, to call a halt to that deal and say there were too many questions about it. It was something from which they should have pulled back. The Irish taxpayer lost out to an extraordinary degree but worse than that, the deal is tainted, of that there can be no question.

An Ceann Comhairle

Has the Deputy a question?

Deputy Micheál Martin

All of this could have been avoided if the Government had not decided to sell such large blocks of assets under NAMA and to force the pace in terms of accelerating the disposal of assets at steeper discounts than were necessary.

The Taoiseach

On the first comment made by Deputy Martin, I understand arrangements have been made for a one minute contribution on the Order of Business in respect of the mass murder in Orlando.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I did not know that.

The Taoiseach

It was only agreed a few minutes ago with the Ceann Comhairle. People will be aware that I gave instructions that the flag should fly at half mast and I have been in touch with President Obama about that. Leaders will have an opportunity to make a comment on the Order of Business.

On Deputy Martin's point in respect of NAMA and Project Eagle, I want him to understand that, as I have said here on many occasions, I am informed that this loan sale was executed in a proper manner. Despite all the comments and allegations, there are no claims of wrongdoing against NAMA. That loan portfolio was sold following an open process to the highest bidder for what it was worth. NAMA paid no moneys to any party on this loan sale against whom allegations of wrongdoing are now being made. Anyone with evidence of wrongdoing needs to report it immediately to the proper authorities, as I am sure Deputy Martin will do if he has information in that regard.

The Government and NAMA take very seriously, and why should they not, any accusations of NAMA employees or former employees breaching the NAMA Act.

I understand that over the weekend there have been some comments about the naming of persons who had been arrested. I understand that two individuals were held for questioning in relation to the UK's National Crime Agency investigation into the Northern Ireland sale of assets owned by NAMA.

I understand that a number of investigations are under way on that at the moment. I welcome these investigations as does the Minister for Finance. As they are serious allegations, clearly they are being thoroughly investigated in the relevant jurisdiction. NAMA continues to co-operate fully with the NCA and other relevant authorities in these investigations. The Department of Finance has previously made all relevant information on Project Eagle available publicly on its website. Separately, the Office of the Comptroller and Auditor General is continuing its examination of the disposal of loans by Northern Ireland debtors. The Comptroller and Auditor General is, of course, positioned to report independently on that. His officials have confirmed that, given their independent role, any queries in regard to the timing, content or any other specified aspect are matters for the Comptroller and Auditor General. I might point out that the Northern Ireland Assembly Committee for Finance and Personnel which carried out a review on the Project Eagle sale was a committee of the previous Northern Ireland Assembly. The stated purpose of the Northern Ireland finance and personnel committee's review was to undertake a fact-finding review in respect of the operation of NAMA in Northern Ireland, including Project Eagle and related regulatory issues that fall within the Northern Ireland Department of Finance and Personnel. The Department of Finance assisted the committee by providing a large volume of documentation in response to the committee's requests. Separately, NAMA provided detailed written responses to over 100 questions submitted by the committee. I understand that the committee published all of this documentation as well as all other evidence gathered in the course of its review in a detailed timeline on its website. I understand the committee intends to resume its work.

If there is anything else that warrants further analysis here, I would be very happy to hear it from Deputies. I am sure that if Deputy Martin has come across information that should be given to the authorities, he will provide it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

A consistent thread in the Taoiseach's replies to various people on this question during the last Dáil and this one is that there has been no wrongdoing on NAMA's behalf.

The Taoiseach

I said "No allegations of wrongdoing against NAMA".

Deputy Micheál Martin

The allegations are about the deal. That is the point but the Taoiseach keeps almost deliberately ignoring it. The allegations are about the entirety of the deal, its ethics and its rightness or wrongness. Surely, when people heard that there was up to €7 million in an offshore account, it raised eyebrows. Surely, the deal should have been called off when PIMCO alerted NAMA to elements of what was going on and when the Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, was himself alerted to what was going on at that stage. There is no point in saying that everything on our side was fine and we have covered our backs, that all our paperwork is clear and clean in the Republic and in NAMA headquarters and the fact that others may have got up to all kinds of activity is of no concern to us.

An Ceann Comhairle

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

That is what has come back to us in regard to this. It is the sense that has come from Ministers, the Taoiseach and NAMA in a very defensive mode. Instead of saying that something is rotten in the state of Denmark in regard to this deal, it is in our interests to tackle and deal with it.

An Ceann Comhairle

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Did it ever occur to the Taoiseach that we should have set up a commission of investigation when the National Crime Agency, the US Securities and Exchange Commission and others were pursuing this? The Taoiseach mentioned the Northern Assembly. There seems to be a sense of a connection and a nexus between politics and all of this in the North as well. That may emerge in the coming weeks.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy, the time has elapsed. Thank you.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I put to the Taoiseach the question of whether he ever asked the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, why the shutters were not pulled down on this deal when PIMCO gave its information to NAMA in regard to third parties.

The Taoiseach

If Deputy Martin makes the case, the Government is in no way defensive about this issue.

If there is something rotten, as the Deputy says, in the state of Denmark relative to this case, what he is saying is that the process by which this sale was completed was wrong, was not up to standard and was not in accordance with proper procedure. I am informed that the sale was conducted under proper conditions, that it was sold following an open process to the highest bidder for what it was worth.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Someone pocketed €7 million.

The Taoiseach

Is that right or is it not right? That is what I am informed. If I am being misinformed here, if somebody has got evidence to that effect, I would certainly like to hear it. The Deputy makes the point that the sale should have been stopped. Where is the evidence that the process that was followed was not open-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

The €7 million.

The Taoiseach

-----was not above board-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

The offshore account.

The Taoiseach

-----and was not fair?

Deputy Gerry Adams

There are seven million reasons.

An Ceann Comhairle

One speaker, please.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The offshore account and the money paid in fixers' fees.

An Ceann Comhairle

The Taoiseach to conclude.

The Taoiseach

In the sale being concluded, the information that I am given, standing here in the position that I hold, is that this was conducted in a proper and open process, and was sold to the highest bidder for what it was worth. If the Deputy has information to the effect that this is not-----

Deputy Micheál Martin

There was only one bidder.

Deputy Sean Fleming

There was only one bidder at that point.

The Taoiseach

-----the way it was, I will be happy to hear it, or from anybody else either.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The allegations about NAMA definitely require a commission of investigation, but for now I want to raise my concern about the thousands of people who are homeless across the State, including 2,000 children living in emergency accommodation. These youngsters are growing up and spending their formative years in hotels, hostels and boarding houses. Thousands more are sleeping on settees in friends' houses, on their relatives' floors, in cars and in overcrowded conditions. Tens of thousands of these families are crippled by increasing rents and the constant fear for the future.

My office - I am sure that every Deputy has had this experience - deals with these issues every day. There are landlords who will not respond to a request for a viewing by a young mother with two children when they realise that she will be seeking housing assistance payment, HAP. A male in his late 30s is in a home in overcrowded conditions with a mother and two adult siblings because he cannot afford to rent. Another young male who has lived in private rented accommodation for five years has just been given notice to leave the premises, cannot find other accommodation and is threatened with homelessness. This situation is worsening day by day. Surely this is not acceptable.

The latest Residential Tenancies Board, RTB, rent index report, which was published last week, confirmed what we all knew, namely, that the cost of renting a home is continuing to spiral out of control. At the end of May, the average cost of renting a home in Dublin was almost €1,500 per month, which is more than it was at its highest point in 2007. Outside Dublin, rents are increasing at an even greater rate. In my constituency of Louth and east Meath and depending on who one listens to, rents have increased by either 11% or 14%. All of the reports agree that these are the highest yearly increases in the State.

Families cannot afford to pay rent. This emergency is being compounded by the Government's failure to build social houses, which has created a significant shortage in housing supply and pushed more people into the private rented sector. Until now, the Government has set its face against rent certainty and refused to link rent increases to the consumer price index as many other states have done. Will the Taoiseach reflect on this issue, and particularly on the plight of the families involved? They need our support - we are here to legislate on their behalf - and the Taoiseach's support. The Dáil's Committee on Housing and Homelessness has received repeated calls for the introduction of rent certainty. Will the Government include a commitment to introducing rent certainty as part of its action plan on housing and will it commit to supporting the Sinn Féin Bill that will be before the Dáil this evening?

The Taoiseach

The general point made by Deputy Adams is one that people will agree with in the sense that the supply of houses is not what it should be, and that is why we have appointed a Minister for housing, planning and local government to deal directly with this area. I have set up a Cabinet sub-committee, which has now met five times and meets again tomorrow.

At each of those meetings, a presentation was given by the relevant Departments with responsibility in this regard, including the Departments of Justice and Equality, Social Protection, Public Expenditure and Reform and Finance and the Department with responsibility for construction, housing and planning. The intention is to draw all the propositions together, including new ones, and have a draft strategy for housing available, presented by the Minister to the Cabinet sub-committee, hopefully, by the end of this month. It would then become a strategy and an action plan to deal with housing.

In respect of Deputy Adams's Private Members' time, and his party's Private Members' business, he is perfectly entitled to put that down but I think, with respect, he is playing politics a little here. The reason I say that is that the Oireachtas Committee on Housing and Homelessness is due to report this Friday. Yesterday, the Minister for housing and planning spoke to the Deputy's own spokesperson and said: "Let us have the debate if you wish but let us suspend it until such time as the Oireachtas housing committee’s report comes in and is debated here". It can feed into the development of the housing strategy, an action plan being prepared by the Minister for housing for debate in the Dáil and for implementation in terms of the supply of housing. However, the Deputy’s spokesperson was not willing to accept that and resume the debate at a later time. He wanted to have a vote on it. In that sense, Deputy Adams is prejudging the outcome and final deliberations of the Oireachtas committee on housing. He is certainly going off in advance of the Government’s response in terms of a housing strategy and an action plan. That is his right if he wishes to do that.

The Residential Tenancies Board's rent index for quarter one of 2016 shows the rate of rent inflation is cooling, with rents up nationally by 0.5% over quarter four of 2015 and by 0.2% in Dublin. This compares with a growth rate of over 1.6% in quarter four of 2015. It obviously does not deal with a situation whereby the number of homeless people on the streets still increases. It is not acceptable that there are many families in hotel rooms and bed and breakfasts. However, the Government is taking action here not just following the appointment of the Minister but, this morning, it also approved a €200 million infrastructure fund for which local authorities can compete to draw down money to open up access to sites that are currently off limits. Many of these are in the greater Dublin area and have the potential for much earlier investment and action on providing houses. That is the real answer to the problem here.

Deputy Adams is entitled to have his vote. The Government will not be supporting his objective in this instance. There is a great deal of work going on. If the Deputy wants to try to pre-empt it by having a vote, that is his right. However, he could have waited.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The Taoiseach has mastered the arts of hyperbole and understatement all in a few sentences. On the one hand, he says as an understatement that the supply of housing is not what it should be. He has not built any social housing in the whole time he has been in office, or not enough worth talking about, yet he goes on to accuse us of playing politics. He asks why we do not adjourn the debate. Why should we adjourn the debate? This is a question of real people living real lives and in a crisis trying to live their lives. Why does the Taoiseach not support the Bill? On Committee Stage, he could, if he wanted, amend it to suit whatever his position might be.

This is a matter of fairness and the choice between fair rents and being homeless. The Government, in its last manifestation, was very clear about whose side it was on. We hear all the talk about new politics but it is equally clear what side the Taoiseach is now on. There are people who will be homeless by the next time we have Leaders' Questions, which is tomorrow. There will be people who will never be able to own their own homes for as long as this crisis continues. Therefore, I ask the Taoiseach again whether he will commit to the principle of rent control. If not, why not? Could he explain to me why we cannot intervene to ensure there are fair rents for citizens?

The Taoiseach

The Deputy asked why the debate should be adjourned. The reason the Minister requested the Sinn Féin spokesperson to have a debate but not to push it to a vote was to allow the Oireachtas committee, on which the Deputy's party has members-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

My party proposed it.

The Taoiseach

-----to produce its report on Friday. The development of the housing strategy on behalf of the Government will, I hope, be available in draft form by the end of this month. The strategy will take into account a range of propositions from the various Departments I mentioned to deal with the very questions the Deputy raises. These include the supply of housing, including social housing, the taking of homeless people off the streets, the provision of proper and adequate accommodation for families that are currently in hotel rooms and bed-and-breakfast accommodation, the issue of rent certainty, which has been dealt with, the changes made by the Department of Social Protection and the increasing numbers of people who are supported by an increased rent subsidy under the relevant scheme with Threshold.

A range of activity is taking place. Sinn Féin wants to make a specific point, as it is entitled to do, and vote on it. The range of work taking place is in the interests of everybody, including Deputy Adams who can make valid comment, constructive or otherwise, on the issues that will be in the action plan and strategy. These are designed to provide 35,000 social housing units, of which 18,000 are to be provided by the end of 2017, with a further 17,000 to be provided by the end of 2020. That is where the action must be. It is not just about talk in here but about making decisions.

The Government made another decision today which will result in €200 million being provided by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. County councils will be able to compete to draw money from this fund to open up sites to build houses. I am sure Deputy Adams supports this measure.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I will begin where the Taoiseach ended. I welcome what I read in this morning's media, which has since been confirmed to the House by the Taoiseach, namely, the establishment of a new infrastructure fund of €200 million to bring unserviced sites into use for housing. I seek some clarity about the fund. Is this new money to be accounted for on or off-balance sheet?

The Taoiseach will recall the allocation last year of €400 million from the sale of Bord Gáis Energy for use in providing social housing. The difficulty with this proposal was that, under the Stability and Growth Pact and the fiscal parameters, we were unable to provide and spend this money without breaching the fiscal rules. Where stands this €400 million? Is it to be expended or is it still parked and not being brought into use?

The Taoiseach

The decision taken this morning was to approve a €200 million local infrastructure development fund. This will require estimated additional amounts of €70 million in 2017, €100 million in 2018 and €30 million in 2019.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

Is the €70 million for this year?

The Taoiseach

That is in respect of the €200 million, which will be funded by €150 million from the Exchequer matched by a €50 million local authority contribution. It is Exchequer money and, therefore, on-balance sheet. It is designed because of the obvious difficulty in a number of locations, particularly in the Dublin area, where there is serious potential for building sizeable numbers of houses but the sites are inaccessible because of the requirement for road openings, bridges and whatever else. The fund is designed to allow local authorities to compete to draw money to open up such sites in order that they can build houses and deal with the supply issue, which, as Deputy Howlin knows, has been the main restriction on people securing homes. I will revert to the Deputy in respect of the expenditure of the €400 million that was allocated last year.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I want to understand this. This money will not be expended until next year. Is that what the Taoiseach is telling us now? When it is drawn down, it has to be matched by some percentage of local government money. What is that percentage? Where are the local authorities to get that money? Will only local authorities with the capacity to find matching funding be allowed to draw down that money?

Taken together during the past week we have seen announcements in the published Estimates of an additional €500 million for health, €200 million for housing, €40 million for policing and an undisclosed sum, yet to be announced, for the Department of Education and Skills. We have not seen them yet although apparently they are to be debated tomorrow. How will all of that additional expenditure impact on the expenditure benchmark? Has a new expenditure benchmark been agreed with Brussels? If so, what is that benchmark?

The Taoiseach

This week will be taken up with Estimates, which will be brought through by the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform, Deputy Howlin's successor. Back in April the Government informed the Commission of some adjustments to the Estimates as originally drafted.

This is on a 75% to 25% basis. The local authorities will have access to finance borrowing capacity from the Housing Finance Agency. The work will commence this year and the drawdown of that money will be next year. The figures are €17 million in 2017, €100 million in 2018 and €30 million in 2019.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There is nothing this year. Is that correct?

The Taoiseach

The work will be able to commence this year. Payment will be drawn down then for 2017. We are in a situation where we have now identified a number of sites, in particular in the greater Dublin area. It is not within the capacity of local authorities to open up these sites to allow for the construction of sizeable numbers of houses. For that reason the Government is keen to step in with a competitive fund. Local authorities will have to demonstrate that if they are looking for €5 million to open site X, it is going to give a return in housing that will reduce the demand and therefore increase the supply.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

There will be nothing until next year. Is that correct?

The Taoiseach

The drawdown will not be until next year but work will commence this year.

Deputy Alan Kelly

That is impossible.

The Taoiseach

In fact, the Minister is keen to expedite this process so that work can start as soon as possible.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

On Thursday the United Nations Human Rights Committee issued a serious condemnation of this State. This is the first opportunity we have had to hear from the Taoiseach directly about how he intends to respond. The human rights committee found Ireland's laws subjected Amanda Mellet to severe emotional and mental pain and suffering by denying her access to abortion services in Ireland. It found that ban violated her right to freedom from cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment. It is now instructing this State to amend its law on voluntary termination of pregnancy, including if necessary the Constitution, to provide effective timely and accessible procedures for pregnancy termination in Ireland.

It also wants an assurance that health care providers currently operating can supply full information on safe abortion services, something Irish people thought they had voted for in referendums, but which the Taoiseach's previous Government undermined in the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Act with criminal sanctions. That information includes the abortion pill, which is currently being denied to women by doctors because they are fearful of the consequences.

Will the Taoiseach apologise to Amanda Mellet and commend her on her bravery in going public and exposing her personal situation? She does not simply want an apology. She did this for a reason: to bring about legislative change in Ireland not only for her situation but for all women. She did it to end the hideous practice of sending women out of the country for a health service that they need right here.

Every time this topic comes up the Taoiseach and his chorus of Ministers wring their hands and utter the refrain that it is highly complex and sensitive, etc.

Every other EU member state deals with this issue. Most states around the world deal with it. People in many of them do not have the luxury of a Ryanair aeroplane out of the country to deal with it. The states that seem to have the most difficulty in dealing with the issue of abortion tend to be dominated by the Catholic Church, states such as Ireland and Brazil, which is gearing up to punish women even more. In the case of Ireland, it is simple; we need a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment. If the Government does not move very quickly, the Anti-Austerity Alliance and People before Profit will introduce a Bill to do so in the autumn, giving organisations and individuals time to lobby Deputies intensely to campaign for the passage of the Bill.

For years the Taoiseach has not listened to women telling him about this human rights abuse. Will he listen to this international human rights court? Having been told to move on this issue, is he still seriously suggesting he will continue with the charade of a citizens' assembly, which is a three-way process to kick it down the road? I wonder how certain members of the Government are feeling, not the ones of long-standing who have continually voted for this abuse of women but the newer members who have gone very quiet. Some, we were told, went into the Government to seek the repeal of the eighth amendment, but we have not heard a peep out of them in the past five days.

The Taoiseach

This is another distressing case, one of many that have come to light during the years. I would like the Deputy to understand that I listened to the women involved very carefully in the case of the Magdalen laundries, an issue which had gone on for over 60 years and nobody had done anything about it. I listened to women as part of the LGBT group who expressed the fear, loathing and frustration they felt because of the lack of courage shown by all previous Governments in dealing with the marriage issue. Together with our colleagues in government, I allowed for the people to make their decision in a referendum.

In this case I have read the report and this morning informed the Cabinet that I would bring a memo to the Government next week to initiate the citizens' assembly which I committed in the programme for Government to set up within six months of the Government being formed. I intend to bring the memo to the Cabinet next week and the first item to be reflected on by the citizens' assembly will be the eighth amendment. It would be pointless to rush into a constitutional referendum unless there was a realistic consensus on whatever change might be recommended. It is prudent and proper for ordinary people from around the country, based on geography, gender, age and so on, to be involved in giving their reflections on the issue that has arisen in the Mellet case and many others. The Deputy is aware that where a woman travels abroad to procure an abortion, the HSE provides post-abortion medical and counselling services and the crisis pregnancy programme also has an input. I committed in the programme for Government to having a citizens' assembly up and running within six months and we will bring the memo to the Government next week. Whatever emerges from it will be brought to this House and an Oireachtas committee with access to appropriate expertise. From this will come recommendations on whether to change. If there is consensus and people have to vote, they will have the right to vote according to their conscience. That is a process I do not want to see delayed into the far future, as some people allege. These are serious and sensitive matters that need to be reflected on. I will set up the assembly. Its first point of reflection will be the eighth amendment.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

It is unbelievable that having received such a stern rebuke, the Taoiseach is going to continue with the delaying tactic of a citizens' assembly. He has spoken about listening to women in the case of the Magdalens - we could argue that one - and in the case of marriage equality but he did not listen to women when Savita Halappanavar died. At that time, rather than saying it was absolutely necessary to repeal the eighth amendment to protect the health of women, he proceeded to bring in a draconian law of which the likes of Donald Trump would be proud. He could only dream of imposing a 14-year jail sentence on a woman having an abortion or trying to help another woman have an abortion. The Taoiseach has said that it would be pointless to rush in but this has been debated and discussed for many years.

Nobody is suggesting that a referendum should take place tomorrow, as it is obvious that there should be a period of debate, but there is already a consensus. The consensus has always been that the eighth amendment should be removed from the Constitution on the basis that it should never have been included in the first place. It was sought by one group only. There has always been a consensus that the citizens' assembly here - the one to which we were all elected in recent months - should legislate following the removal of the eighth amendment. The only people who are striking a note of discord are the likes of the Taoiseach's Ministers, who are talking about putting something into the Constitution to replace the eighth amendment that would be equally problematic for many years into the future.

The Taoiseach

I do not think Deputy Coppinger or anybody else is entitled to judge the electorate that voted for the Constitution or that voted to amend the Constitution. My view is that if we were to decide to have a referendum to repeal the eighth amendment in October, it would not be passed. I will explain why. There needs to be a real discussion here. If we are going to attempt to remove this from the Constitution, people will want to know what we intend to replace it with. I have had problems with this genuine question. With respect, I do not accept from the Deputy that we should make a rush to judgment in this instance. The UN committee's verdict in this sensitive and distressing case is non-binding. It is not like the European court. It speaks for the distress caused to this good woman. As the Deputy knows, another case is being processed.

It is right and proper for us to follow the route of having a properly selected citizens' assembly that is able to do its business of reflecting on the eighth amendment and what it might mean. The assembly will consider what changes, if any, should be made to the eighth amendment and how they might be made. If we are to ask people to vote on this issue, at least we should be able to tell them what will replace the eighth amendment if they vote for its removal. People need to know the options and the consequences. I genuinely believe people have a right to be able to discuss these things. This matter divided Irish society for over 30 years. I ask the Deputy to believe me when I say it is not a question of a lack of courage. It is a question of understanding that the entire population has a responsibility and a role in this regard. It is not as simple as saying that a referendum should be held to take out the eighth amendment without saying what it will be replaced with.

An Ceann Comhairle

That concludes Leaders' Questions. This is the first time we have used the clock for Leaders' Questions, in accordance with the new Standing Orders and procedures of the House. I have shown a degree of flexibility today but I would be anxious for Deputies to abide by the agreed time limits from tomorrow on. Three minutes are three minutes and one minute is one minute.