Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Jun 2016

Vol. 914 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Vaccination Programme

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank the Ceann Comhairle’s office for allowing time for this topical issue. I am glad the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Corcoran Kennedy, is here and I congratulate her on her recent appointment. I am sure she will do an excellent job.

Over the past nine months numerous parents in County Kerry have contacted me with concerns about their daughters who have received the human papillomavirus, HPV, vaccination to prevent cervical cancer and who believe that serious side effects have affected their daughters as a result. The number of people who have contacted me leads me to believe this may be more than coincidence, but I cannot say that definitively or prove it. It cannot, however, be disproved.

I and Deputy Danny Healy-Rae feel that the parents of these young ladies need to be made aware of the potential side effects, of the cases that have occurred and of the people who have linked this vaccination to their illnesses. I have received responses to parliamentary questions showing that the Department has looked over this, that the European Commission has looked into it and a link cannot be proven. To prove or disprove a link would take a long time and a lot of money. In the meantime, at the very least, parents should be made aware of the number of cases of potential side effects and the number of people potentially affected.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

Will the Minister for Health and the Health Service Executive address the concerns of parents in respect of the side effects supposedly caused by the HPV vaccine drug Gardasil, administered to 12 and 13 year old girls to prevent cervical cancer later in their lives? The Minister for Health should inform parents and create awareness about the possible side effects of this drug. They complain of the lack of aftercare following the administering of the vaccine, that they were not given proper information prior to giving permission for their daughters to receive the vaccine, and that they are not listened to or taken seriously by health officials. The side effects listed after this vaccine are swollen glands, aching muscles, unusual tiredness or weakness, tightening in arms, legs and upper body, becoming less active in sports, attending school less, an inability to concentrate, headaches, joint pain and desire to sleep all day, and lack of energy, even to have a shower. This lack of energy leads to weight gain, which is upsetting for teenage girls and causes depression. We are not doctors and do not have technical knowledge but there is too much of this happening and I met a lot of it when canvassing for the last general election and the council election. It cannot be ignored. This has to be addressed and parents need to be made aware of it.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy)

I wish to convey the apologies of the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, to Deputies Griffith, Healy-Rae and Lahart. Unfortunately, he is not able to be here and has asked me to deal with this very important matter. I thank Deputy Griffin for his kind words of congratulation.

I thank Deputies Griffin and Healy-Rae for giving me the opportunity to provide an update to the House on this very important issue. The HPV vaccine, which was introduced in 2010, protects girls from cervical cancer when they are adults. It is available free of charge from the HSE for all girls in the first year of secondary school. I am aware of claims of an association between the HPV vaccine and a number of conditions being experienced by a group of young women. I want to provide assurances to them and their families that they are eligible to seek medical attention and to access appropriate health and social care services irrespective of the cause of their symptoms. The HSE is currently developing a care pathway for young people who are experiencing symptoms of this type and will be in a position to facilitate access to specialist services tailored to the needs of each individual.

It appears that some girls first suffered symptoms around the same time that they received the HPV vaccine and understandably some parents have connected the vaccine to their children's condition. I wish to again emphasise why HPV vaccination was introduced in 2010. Each year in Ireland around 300 women are diagnosed with cervical cancer and there are approximately 70 deaths per year. The HPV vaccine protects against two high-risk types of HPV that cause 73% of all cervical cancers. The vaccine used in the school immunisation programme is Gardasil and more than 200,000 girls have received it since its introduction. Gardasil is a fully tested vaccine which was licensed by the European Medicines Agency in 2006. While no medicine, including vaccines, is entirely without risk, the safety profile of Gardasil has been continuously monitored since it was first authorised nationally and at EU level.

In November 2015, the European Medicines Agency completed a detailed scientific review of the HPV vaccine. The review, in which the Health Products Regulatory Authority participated, focused on rare reports of two conditions, namely, complex regional pain syndrome and postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome. The review found no evidence of a causal link between the vaccine and the two conditions. On 12 January 2016, the European Commission endorsed the conclusion of the European Medicines Agency that there is no need to change the way HPV vaccines are used or to amend the product information, which is now binding in all member states. Health care professionals are advised to continue using HPV vaccines in accordance with the current product information.

Deputy Brendan Griffin

I thank the Minister of State for her response, which is very similar to one I received about two weeks ago to a written parliamentary question. We could argue until the cows come home about whether the vaccine works and what causes the side effects. We will never know. I want to be very clear: I am not advocating for people to avail of or refuse the vaccine. I do not want to be responsible for someone not availing of a vaccine which could save her life down the road. However, it is necessary that people be aware of those who have said they suffered side effects. I feel strongly about this because of the sheer number of people I have met who have linked the vaccine to their side effects. In the case of the MMR vaccine it was proved that there was no link to certain side effects, but that does not mean it is not possible with the HPV vaccine. I ask the Minister of State, who has responsibility for health promotion, to at least make sure that people are fully informed, not just in terms of what the manufacturers have stated but of the number of reported cases of possible links between the vaccine and side effects. The least people deserve is to be fully informed in their decision-making on what they think is right for their daughters or what girls think is right for themselves.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I ask that proper notification be given to parents in the future about possible side effects. We are not asking the Minister of State to take the drug off the market. Parents need to be given the correct advice when the vaccination programme is taking place in schools. Parents should be notified in advance and allowed to make a decision after highlighting to them the possible or coincidental side effects. I am aware of many cases around east Kerry, Killarney, Farranfore and other places in which vaccinations have changed the lives of girls and their families completely. All we are asking is for parents to be given proper information about the potential side effects.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I thank Deputies Healy-Rae and Griffin. It is quite clear that their motivation is out of concern for young girls and their families. It is something that will have to be taken very seriously. I can assure them that I will bring their concerns back to the relevant section in my Department and to the Minister, Deputy Harris, for consideration.

Hospital Waiting Lists

Deputy John Lahart

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me the opportunity to raise a distressing case. It concerns a constituent of mine, the parent of a young boy who was in touch with me. She has a very young family, all aged under seven years. One of her sons, who is aged five, has had ongoing problems with his tonsils since he was approximately two years of age. He has missed a lot of school and when his tonsils are very sore he gets sick constantly, which can go on for between one and three days depending on the severity of the illness.

For a number of years his mother was told a viral infection was to blame, but some weeks ago a family doctor suggested that her son's tonsils needed to be removed. To cut a long story short, she was advised that paying a private ear, nose and throat specialist in a private hospital would speed things up. A tonsil checkup for two of her children cost €350.

I have been informed that the specialist suggested that the tonsils need to be removed and that it would cost approximately €3,000 to have the procedure undertaken privately; otherwise, her son would go on a waiting list. The family does not have €3,000. The waiting list in Tallaght hospital is at least one year. The principal of the local school wrote to me and the local hospital to outline the fact that the child has missed a lot of school due to sickness related to tonsillitis. The child is falling behind in school and she is extremely concerned about him. She has other children aged under 7 to care for.

I have been in touch with Tallaght Hospital and have received correspondence from its chief executive about the patient. The CEO acknowledged the facts around the case in terms of the waiting time. He said a referral letter for the patient was received and reviewed on 13 April and that the referral was triaged as routine. The current waiting time for a routine referral in the hospital is 17 months. The hospital has recognised that this is an unacceptable length of time for anyone to wait for an appointment. On top of this, the hospital is the only paediatric hospital on the south side of Dublin that is accepting routine ear, nose and throat referrals. Demand for paediatric ear, nose and throat services has increased by 51% over the past two years. Things will only get worse, not just for this child but for many others.

The CEO confirmed that he has raised this issue with the HSE and, in fairness, a new paediatric ear, nose and throat consultant was approved, but the successful candidate withdrew from the recruitment process and the job is being re-advertised. In addition to there being no locum available for this position, the paediatric sessions from a recent consultant retirement also remain unfilled. The CEO stated that the children's hospital group has approached the HSE to seek support for an ear, nose and throat waiting list initiative with the private sector and is awaiting a response.

In conclusion, the CEO said the hospital cannot at this time offer the patient an appointment date, and the hospital apologised for that.

I have a few questions for the Minister. Under the supply and confidence arrangement between Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, it was agreed that the National Treatment Purchase Fund, NTPF, would be reinstated. Does the issue I raised come under the remit of the NTPF? The CEO has approached the HSE to seek support for a waiting list initiative in that regard. Tallaght hospital is part of the Dublin Midlands hospital group. Is there any alternative hospital at which the parent in question can seek to get treatment for her son? It is a shame the Minister cannot be here, but I accept that he is unable to be present. What is his response to the issue and what advice can I, as the local Deputy, give to the distressed parent whose child may have to wait another 17 months, which I am sure the Minister of State will agree is completely unacceptable?

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I thank Deputy Lahart for raising this important issue today and for giving me the opportunity to update the House on it. Tallaght hospital provides a full range of ear, nose and throat, ENT, services, including tonsillectomy services, for both adults and paediatrics, with the exception of paediatric ENT airway management. Within the ENT services, tonsillectomy waiting times are not separately identified but are reported on as part of the ENT service overall. As published by the NTPF, the most recent waiting times for ENT services at Tallaght show 278 children and 321 adults awaiting inpatient or day case treatments. Of those, 87 adults and 64 children have been waiting longer than a year.

It is clear that the services are experiencing capacity challenges, which is of great concern to us all. In order to address the challenges, I am advised that the hospital has been working with the HSE in relation to the recruitment of ENT consultants. I am pleased to say that two consultant posts are currently in recruitment to fill vacant posts. One of those is a replacement post, providing both adult and paediatric services, while the second is a new post to provide adult ENT services. A further new paediatric consultant post has been re-advertised following a previously unsuccessful recruitment campaign. The posts, when in place, will improve access to ENT services at Tallaght. The hospital is also implementing other initiatives to optimise the capacity of the existing services, including nurse tonsillectomy triage and nurse-led grommets review clinics in paediatrics.

In the health system as a whole there has been a considerable and increasing demand for care. We are now seeing in a year approximately 3.2 million outpatient attendances at hospitals, while 100,000 patients have an elective inpatient procedure and more than 800,000 have a planned day case procedure. Clearly, that has increased pressure on waiting times, as the Deputy will be aware, which means that a sustained commitment to improving waiting times for patients across the health service is urgently needed. That is why the programme for a partnership Government commits to continued investment of €50 million per year specifically for the purpose.

A scheduled care governance group has been established in the HSE to co-ordinate key initiatives to reduce waiting times and the number of patients awaiting treatment. Actions overseen by the group include driving greater adherence to chronological scheduling, relocation of low-complexity surgical procedures to smaller hospitals and administrative and clinical validation procedures to ensure that patients are available for treatment. In addition, each hospital group has been mandated to designate a key person to lead and support waiting list management improvements in order to advance towards compliance with maximum waiting times.

I wish to reassure the House that officials in the Department of Health are working with the NTPF and the HSE to urgently address waiting lists across the health service for those waiting longest. The initiatives will be funded by the annual commitment of €50 million, to which I have already referred. The amount includes ring-fenced funding of €15 million in 2017 for the National Treatment Purchase Fund. That will allow us to balance demand and capacity in acute hospital services, including Tallaght hospital, and utilise primary, social and community care services to support the health of citizens.

Deputy John Lahart

The news is reasonable if one were to take a helicopter view of the situation, but the stark fact is in the first paragraph of the Minister of State's reply - that is, that a total of 64 children have been waiting longer than a year for ENT services. I appreciate that the Minister of State has attempted to respond to some of the issues I raised, including whether there is another hospital within the hospital group in which services can be provided. I accept that efforts are being made by the Minister to relocate some procedures to those hospitals. Could the Minister respond directly to the case I raise? There is no good news specifically for my constituent. I wonder what I will go back and tell the parents of the child in question. I could say X and Y is happening from a macro perspective but there is no good news in terms of the specific child's needs being met immediately. I acknowledge the efforts made by the Minister of State to respond but I request that she speak personally to the Minister for Health. I accept that he would not have been apprised of the specific nature of the individual case when he received notice of the Topical Issue but I would be very grateful if he could examine the matter and respond specifically to the case I raise.

Deputy Marcella Corcoran Kennedy

I thank Deputy Lahart again for reiterating his concerns for his constituent. I am very familiar with the type of query raised because there are also challenges in the midlands region in terms of recruitment of the required professionals to help clear the waiting lists. I will refer the Deputy's query to the Minister if he wishes to give me the specific details and I will endeavour to be of whatever assistance I can to him.

Planning Issues

Deputy Eugene Murphy

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy English, for coming to the House to respond. I am sharing my time with my colleague, Deputy Fitzmaurice.

On 15 June, last Wednesday, County Roscommon experienced another incident of torrential rain, which was also experienced in parts of some adjoining counties, including County Westmeath, where I was driving at the time and had to pull over. The heavy deluge of rain caused widespread damage to a number of homes, roads and bridges, especially in areas such as Curraghroe, Scramogue, Culliagh and Doughill, which were badly affected.

Flash floods have affected many communities that are just trying to recover from the heavy rainfall of 2015 and early 2016. Late on Wednesday night I spent two hours visiting my neighbours and friends in the region. At least half a dozen houses were quite badly affected in that kitchens, back kitchens, bathrooms and materials in them were damaged. It is a nightmare situation for families and it is not the first time we have faced such difficulties in County Roscommon. I am a resident of the area and my home was affected, but thankfully we kept the water from getting in the door. It took a huge effort. Those who witnessed the rain said it was the worst they had ever seen. Reports from Met Éireann suggest it was the heaviest rainfall on record, but that has not been clarified.

In addition, water has flowed down from Sliabh Bán, where Coillte is involved in a wind farm development. Even though the wind farm got full planning permission and the go-ahead from An Bord Pleanála, local people are concerned about what might be happening there. I do not wish to take up any more time, as I wish to give time to my colleague. I call on the Minister of State to address the issue and to assure me that everything has been checked to make sure the inflow of water is not due to drainage issues on Sliabh Bán.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

As Deputy Eugene Murphy stated, a tsunami of water came down from Sliabh Bán last Thursday evening. In fairness, the council was contacted that evening but one road was taken out completely, houses were flooded, as the Deputy also has noted, and there was chaos in the area. Since then, no one from Coillte has visited the people who were affected by this event and I understand it could be another day or two before that happens. There are many questions to be answered. I walked that mountain last Sunday and while it was stated that one cannot go up the mountain or whatever, I went up through the trees and walked it. Members must read the planning that is involved and to be frank, enforcement must be considered because while the Deputy is correct to state there was a lot of rain, part of that planning refers to events that happen once every 100 years and the amount of rain that was accounted for the other evening was far from that mark. I have video footage and photographs of it and it broke the banks. It came down through the trees and went straight down the mountain. Were one to examine the planning that was meant to have been put in place, one would conclude that attenuation tanks must be placed in dangerous areas right around that mountain or people will live in fear. An 82-year-old woman is unable to enter her house, and silt has gone down through drains for approximately one mile. Farmers' meadows have been blown to the ground. Water came down the main road from up that mountain. Under health and safety and building regulations, there is a responsibility on any site to contain whatever water comes onto it and I seek the proper enforcement of this responsibility. This is the biggest building site in County Roscommon and it must be done right because the people in the area cannot lie in their beds at night in fear of a repeat of what happened the other evening.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Community and Local Government (Deputy Damien English)

I thank both Deputies for raising this important issue. I got a chance to view the footage of the flooding in County Roscommon through the RTE website and I could see the devastation caused to families and their homes, as well as to the surrounding land. There is no doubt that nothing worse can happen than being flooded, and plenty of Members present have experienced this in recent years. It certainly is devastating and the Deputies are correct that all steps needed to prevent this must be implemented across whatever Departments or county councils are involved. It is as simple as that and everything that must be done to prevent a recurrence undoubtedly must happen.

As for my involvement and that of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, through the Department, I wish to take this opportunity to outline the provisions of the planning code in respect of development in general and of Deputy Coveney's role as Minister. Proposals for wind energy developments are subject to the statutory requirements of the Planning and Development Acts 2001 to 2015, as amended, and the planning and development regulations made under the Acts in the same manner as other proposed developments. Planning applications are generally made to the relevant local planning authority with a right of appeal to An Bord Pleanála. However, in the case of wind development proposals such as this one, which meet the statutory threshold criteria for classification as strategic infrastructure developments under the Planning and Development Act, such applications are required to be submitted directly to An Bord Pleanála. There is a compulsory requirement, however, to undertake an environmental impact assessment in respect of wind farm development projects of a certain scale, that is, if they consist of five or more turbines or have a power output greater than 5 MW. This ensures that all environmental impacts, including potential hydrological impacts, of a proposed development are fully considered and assessed prior to the making of determinations on individual planning applications.

Planning authorities, including An Bord Pleanála, are further required to have regard to relevant planning guidelines issued under section 28 of the Planning and Development Act 2000. These include the Department's wind energy development guidelines, which were published in June 2006 and which provide advice to planning authorities on catering for wind energy development through the development plan process, as well as in assessing individual wind farm development proposals and all their effects on the surrounding area. Furthermore, the planning system and planning guidelines on flood risk management published in November 2009 are designed to ensure that where relevant, flood risk is a key consideration in both the preparation of local authority development plans and local area plans and in the assessment of individual planning applications which may have a flooding risk. In this regard, it is a matter for the relevant planning authority to make the appropriate determination on a planning application or appeal having regard to relevant planning guidelines issued by the Department. These guidelines are issued for guidance purposes to assist planning authorities in the performance of their functions. Ultimately, planning authorities, be they the local planning authority or An Bord Pleanála, will make their own decision based on the specific merits or otherwise of individual planning applications.

The role of the Minister, Deputy Coveney, with regard to the planning system is primarily to provide the policy and legislative framework which comprises the Planning and Development Act, the planning and development regulations and a suite of planning guidelines to which, as I have outlined, planning authorities and An Bord Pleanála are obliged to have regard in the exercise of their statutory planning functions. The day-to-day operation of the planning system is, however, a matter for the planning authorities themselves. Furthermore, under section 30 of the Planning and Development Act 2000, the Minister is specifically precluded from exercising any power or control in respect of any particular case with which a planning authority or An Bord Pleanála is or may be concerned.

On the matter of flooding, my colleague, the Minister of State with responsibility for the Office of Public Works, OPW, and flood relief, Deputy Canney, has lead and primary responsibility for the co-ordination and implementation of Government policy on the management of flood risk. The core strategy for addressing the significant flood risks nationally is the OPW's catchment flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, programme, which I understand is being taken forward in partnership with the local authorities at present. In this connection, I am informed that approximately 300 locations nationwide that are being assessed under the programme have been designated to be at potentially significant flood risk. This programme also has been discussed with Deputies at other stages. This involves flood mapping for each of these 300 locations, the development of preliminary flood risk management options and ultimately, the production of flood risk management plans. This programme of draft flood mapping is now in the process of being finalised following completion of the national statutory public consultation phase on 23 December 2015 and work on the options to address flood risk in these locations is under way at present. I am unsure whether the area in question is part of that process but this is a matter Deputies certainly could raise directly with the relevant Ministers and authorities.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

I thank the Minister of State.

Deputy Damien English

I wish to make one further point and will cut it short. I should also point out in this regard that the priority being attached to addressing flooding generally is reflected in the Government's capital investment plan, which includes a significant increase in the levels of investment in the area of flood relief. Ministers are meeting on a cross-departmental basis to ascertain whether there is a way to fast-track and to spend this investment and the Minister of State sitting to my right, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, also has been involved in those meetings to try to free up resources where they are needed.

With regard to local flooding issues, including those in County Roscommon raised today by Deputies Eugene Murphy and Fitzmaurice, these are a matter in the first instance for each local authority to investigate and address. Local authorities are empowered to carry out flood mitigation works using their own resources where appropriate.

To conclude, the OPW also funds local authorities for small-scale flood relief studies and works up to a cost limit of €500,000 under the minor flood mitigation works scheme. All applications received under this scheme are assessed under the scheme's eligibility criteria, which include a requirement that all measures are cost-beneficial, having regard to the overall availability of funding.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

I thank the Minister of State. He has another minute coming up.

Deputy Damien English

To be clear, I heard a representative from Coillte stating he was in talks with the local authority and that the site manager there was prepared to do whatever the council asked of him in respect of this work. However, it is a local issue that must be resolved locally. As representatives for the area, the Deputies themselves no doubt have been involved in discussions with the local authority and with Coillte.

Deputy Eugene Murphy

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Aire Stáit as ucht an fhreagra sin. I can report that Roscommon County Council has commenced checking out the situation and I have been assured from the very top that this matter will be checked completely to make sure that every regulation in the planning is being adhered to. I also can reveal that today, and I believe yesterday, Coillte did start meeting the people on an individual basis. However Deputy Fitzmaurice is correct in his observations on what happened. I have lived in that area for all my life and certainly never have seen any such devastation in my lifetime previously. While it would be wrong and wild to make any allegations against anyone this evening, as Deputies we wish to ensure that everything that must be done under the Planning and Development Acts 2001 to 2015 is carried out. At present in County Roscommon, I am informed that 133 locations are in difficulty with flooding. The amount of money needed to deal with them is €11 million but €4.9 million has been received from the Department and then this event has taken place on top of it. My mother grew up in that area and has seen flooding down through the years. Her family has been there for generations-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Eugene Murphy

I make the point to the Minister of State that no drains, small streams or small rivers have been cleaned for years and that is part of the problem.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

I thank the Deputy.

Deputy Eugene Murphy

I will conclude by stating that we must ensure, if there are issues pertaining to the wind farm, that they are dealt with properly.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

It must be remembered that submissions were made before this project went ahead, and it was noted at T15 that there may be a risk of flooding at one of the places on the site. The reality is that people have been flooded in their houses, Coillte is ducking and diving at present and people do not know whether to draw down insurance. The point is that were they to draw down their insurance, they would not get insurance again. This is what is going on in the area, and I will stand up and be counted. I went up that mountain the other day. I am from a construction background and I will state clearly that if one takes out 40 ha or 50 ha of trees, if one puts in place 25 m roads and if one brings some of these roads to areas such as those that were earmarked in submissions as being in danger of flooding, one increases the risk.

It was put into the plan that up to 85 mm of rain needed to be accounted for in areas. We did not have that. That is guaranteed. However, it was not contained on the site and that is the bottom line. There is now silt down the drains. There is a council road completely busted out of it. Someone has to account for it. We need the council to carry out enforcement on this because what has gone on is intolerable.

Deputy Damien English

I think it is quite clear. Naturally, any planning application judge has to assess all the associated procedures to ensure that all the environmental impacts, including any potential hydrological impacts, are fully considered and assessed in the consideration of individual planning applications. I can only assume that was done. It should have been done. The regulations are there. That is why they are put in place and what the policy is there for. There is local authority planning and there is An Bord Pleanála and it is their job to follow through on procedures. I agree with the Deputy. They need to investigate whether every planning procedure and regulation was followed and whether every condition was adhered to. Deputy Fitzmaurice raised the conditions in this case. Naturally, if one is going to have any construction in an area it is going to have a knock-on effect. That has to be fully investigated. That is what planning laws are there for. That is what the Department is very proactive about.

It is a local conversation. From what I can see, if Coillte is involved in discussions, I do not know if the site affects it or not. It is alleged that there are impacts from wind farms on localised flooding in Roscommon. From what I have seen, Coillte is dealing with the local authority to see if its site is in any way involved. It will take corrective action where necessary. Deputy Fitzmaurice has specific planning details and I hope he liaises with the local authority, which is in charge of enforcement. Local authorities have a budget for enforcement. That is their job. As a Minister of State in this Department, I feel very strongly that we have to have enforcement. It is something we have to have. There is no point in having planning laws if we do not enforce them.

Ultimately, as I have outlined, it is a matter for the relevant planning authority to make the appropriate determination with regard to a planning application or appeal, having regard to relevant planning guidelines issued by the Department based on the specific merits or otherwise of individual planning applications. The Minister is specifically excluded from exercising any power or control with regard to any particular case, but it is important that all regulations are checked and enforced. On the matter raised by Deputies Murphy and Fitzmaurice regarding flooding in Roscommon, my colleague, the Minister of State with special responsibility for the OPW, Deputy Seán Canney, has lead responsibility and is working on this issue.

Much work was carried out on the CFRAM process and we discussed it on many other occasions as well. Very often, there are simple solutions. The Deputy said that most of the cases in Roscommon would cost about €11 million. Over half a billion euro has been allocated to be spent on flood relief over the next three or four years. That needs to be spent as quickly as possible and we need to work with locals on the ground to spend it and not have any delays.

We have the term "one-hundred-year flood." That is possibly going to change. We have had a lot of rainfall this year and we are well ahead of once in 100 years. I assume that all involved in flood relief prevention measures for the future are updating the technology and information in conjunction with our weather services. I imagine that is happening. I will certainly check that, because the one-hundred-year event is becoming too common.

Mortgage Data

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I have been raising an issue with the Minister for Finance, Deputy Michael Noonan, for quite some time now, seeking to get accurate information on the macro-prudential limits on mortgage lending that were introduced by the Central Bank on 9 February 2015. Obviously, the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, is aware that the Central Bank called for submissions last week with regard to the review it is carrying out on these limits, as well as submissions on the loan-to-value and loan-to-income limits that it introduced. I ask the Minister to facilitate the publication of the most important evidence there is of the working of these rules, which is the amount of leeway on loan-to-income and loan-to-value that the rules allow for that the banks are actually using. That is critical. Under the existing rules, 15% of qualifying loans can be dealt with as exemptions from the loan-to-value limit and 20% as exemptions from loan-to-income limit. What does this mean? It means, if one looks at AIB as an example, that AIB could have issued €400 million worth of mortgages in 2015 that did not comply with the loan-to-income rules. That is what 20% of their mortgage lending would have been. It would have been about €300 million if it was solely on loan-to-value.

What we need to know is whether this flexibility that is built into the rules is being used by the financial institutions and whether it is being completely used. They are sensible rules in my view and should be used to the maximum of their ability in terms of the exceptions that are there. In my view, it is those on lower incomes whom the rules narrowly disqualify, rather than a large number of bigger loans, who should be availing of these exceptions. Thanks to my persistence in seeking replies to parliamentary questions, we see that 11% of the qualifying loans issued by Permanent TSB in 2015 were under the loan-to-value exception, while the Central Bank rules allow for 15%. The Minister has refused to direct AIB to publish its figures. I cannot see why that is the case, because we need all of the information available. Both Permanent TSB and AIB should be publishing these figures in a way that is very easily digestible to the public and that can feed into the review by the wider public and by Members of this House in terms of the evidence-based review that the Central Bank has called for. As long as these figures are unpublished, there must be questions about whether the banks are simply using the rules or whether they are hiding behind the rules and the real problem is that they are simply not lending. We will not know that until we know that they are using the 20% exception on loan-to-income ratios and the 15% exception on loan-to-value ratios to the maximum ability and that they are using them for a large number of people on low incomes instead of for the bigger loans, which would use up a lot of the percentage base.

There can be no evidence-based submission without evidence. That is what goes to the core of this issue. We need to be empowered with regard to making an accurate submission. I do not see how I could make a submission not knowing if this exemption is being used or not. If the Central Bank does not want to be accused of running a sham exercise, it must work with the Department of Finance to release these figures. Following the Minister's refusal when I asked again that he direct AIB to release these figures, I wrote directly to the Central Bank and it provided an ambiguous reply saying that it had obligations under section 33AK and EU law, but it went on to suggest that it would publish the figures that I am calling for now so that we can feed into an evidence-based review. The Central Bank says it will publish the figures after the review and the submissions are concluded. I ask the Minister of State if he will facilitate me and anybody else who wishes to have an input into this important review by supplying a crucial part of the evidence, which is whether the banks are using the exceptions that are available to them.

Minister of State at the Department of Finance (Deputy Eoghan Murphy)

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and I am aware of his interest and persistence on this matter. I am glad that he acknowledges that the rules are sensible.

The Central Bank's macro-prudential limits on mortgage lending came into effect on 9 February 2015. The policy sets restrictions on the loan-to-value, LTV, and the loan-to-income, LTI, ratios on products that can be offered by mortgage providers. The Central Bank has an independent mandate to promote and protect financial stability and these residential mortgage lending macro-prudential measures were put in place by the Central Bank with the objective of increasing the financial resilience of the banking and household sectors and reducing the risk of bank credit and house price spirals in the future.

There are a number of exemptions allowed for within the Central Bank guidelines - for example, for mortgage switchers or forbearance cases. The banks are at liberty to use these exceptions to the extent they see fit and will likely do so with consideration to their risk appetite, lending policies and overall strategy. The measures provide that residential mortgage loan approvals issued after 9 February 2015 will be subject to specified LTV and LTI restrictions. Any mortgage loans sanctioned prior to that date are not affected by the new rules even where the mortgage is drawn down after 9 February.

Subject to certain exceptions, the restrictions that apply to mortgage lending are: a maximum LTV mortgage of 80% of the value of a principal dwelling house for non-first-time buyers; a maximum mortgage LTV of 90% for a property valued up to €220,000 for first-time buyers, subject to an 80% LTV on any excess value above that amount; a limit of 70% LTV on buy-to-let mortgages; and an LTI limitation of three and a half times a gross annual income for loans only.

Certain other types of primary home residential lending fall outside the scope of the new rules. The LTV and LTI limits do not apply to the refinancing of housing loans, switcher mortgages or housing loans entered into in order to address arrears or pre-arrears. Housing loans for borrowers in negative equity who wish to obtain a mortgage for a new property are not in the scope of the LTV limits. However, lenders can exceed the above LTV and LTI thresholds in respect of a certain limited proportion of the overall amount of residential lending, as the Deputy has pointed out. For primary home mortgage lending, up to 15% of new lending as drawn down can exceed the LTV threshold limits in an annual period and up to 20% of new lending can exceed the LTI threshold.

The decision of a bank to utilise some or all of these exemption thresholds or not is a commercial matter for individual banks, subject to compliance with consumer protection rules and having assessed loan applications on a case-by-case basis. The banks, therefore, are at liberty to use these exemption discretions as they see fit and will likely do so with consideration to their risk appetite, lending policies and overall strategy. The macro-prudential limits on mortgage lending are designed, implemented and monitored by the Central Bank in its role as regulator of the Irish banking sector, and therefore fall outside the remit of the Minister for Finance. Lenders are required to make regulatory returns to the Central Bank on the lending they make which falls within the scope of the macro-prudential regulations. These returns are provided on a six-monthly basis.

The Central Bank has not provided information on such regulatory returns on an individual institution basis; neither has it provided, at least so far, aggregated data on this matter for public information and there is no regulatory requirement for any bank to publicly disclose the value of approved mortgages that are exceptions to the macro-prudential limits. However, in the context of the upcoming review of the macro-prudential rules, officials in the Department will write to the Central Bank to suggest that it would be helpful if the Central Bank could make available aggregated data on mortgage lending since the macro-prudential rules came into operation. This data, if available, would assist respondents in making evidence-based submissions to the Central Bank's consultation process.

The Minister for Finance's role, as set out in the relationship framework agreements with the banks in which the State is a shareholder, does not involve him in the relationship between the banks and their regulator. It would therefore be inappropriate, and beyond his remit, for him to direct an individual credit institution to disclose the information sought by the Deputy. The Central Bank has indicated that, while the general framework of mortgage rules is intended to be a permanent feature, arising from this forthcoming review the calibration of these rules can be tightened, loosened or left unchanged in response to its analysis of the operation of these rules from inception through summer 2016. However, it has cautioned that, given the value of a stable rules-based system, any changes to the existing measures will require a high evidence threshold.

As laid out in the programme for Government, the Department of Finance will work with the Central Bank in the context of the review of the mortgage lending limits and, as indicated, officials will also engage with the Central Bank on the availability of data to assist the public consultation process. On a more general point, despite concerns that the macro-prudential measures would impact on the level of lending in 2015, data indicate that new residential mortgage lending amounted to almost €4.9 billion in 2015. This represented an increase of 26% on the 2014 new residential mortgage lending figure of €3.9 billion.

Deputy Pearse Doherty

I welcome that the Minister will write a letter to the Central Bank asking it to do exactly as I asked it to do in a previous letter. The Minister mentioned the "data, if available"; he knows the data is available. These are the rules the banks must abide by, and every quarter they cannot exceed 15% or 20% of the exceptions. The data is available. They must have it, record it and report it to the Central Bank.

Permanent TSB included the data in its financial returns. Permanent TSB gave the data to the Minister for Finance and he put it on the record of the Dáil. The Minister for Finance is the major, and almost only, shareholder in AIB. While one can look for aggregated data relating to other financial institutions, where we have a 99% shareholding in an institution we should be at least saying, if not directing, that it would be helpful if the bank we own tells us whether it is using the 15% exceptions under loan-to-value and the 20% exceptions under loan-to-income to the full of its ability. This could potentially be €400 million of mortgage lending that could be provided if it is not using it. However, we do not know; we are in the dark. Then we have political parties scurrying about and suggesting that we might introduce measures whereby the Exchequer would pay €1 for every €2 that individuals save, because they are finding it difficult to meet the loan-to-value targets, when we do not know whether the banks are using the exceptions that are allowed for under the rules.

We must have some straight talking. Before taking office the Minister was known as a person who talks straight so I hope he will say that it would be helpful if AIB would give the information to the House, as Permanent TSB has, as to whether it is using the leeway provided under the rules. We can deduce from the information Permanent TSB has provided that it is not using the leeway. It is only using 11%. Therefore, what are we doing about the major problem here? People are being frustrated as a result of these rules. They cannot get mortgages because the rules are putting such a constriction on them and we are thinking about coming up with policies that would help them fulfil the rules. I ask the Minister to go beyond writing a letter to the Central Bank. We have already asked for that, and I welcome that a letter is being sent. However, I ask the Minister at least to make a statement saying that AIB should provide the same type of information that Permanent TSB has provided.

Deputy Eoghan Murphy

I appreciate the Deputy's interest and persistence in this matter. Both of us were members of the banking inquiry and we both have a strong interest in this area.

I would be interested to see the correspondence the Deputy received from the Central Bank, if he would not mind sharing it with me and my officials. Permanent TSB can disclose information if it chooses to do so. That is its choice. However, there is no regulatory requirement on other banks to disclose this publicly. There is a requirement on them to make such returns to the Central Bank. Under the relationship framework agreements with the banks in which we are shareholders, we cannot interfere. We cannot get involved in the relationship between the banks and the Central Bank as regulator, so it would be inappropriate for us to get involved as the Deputy is requesting and to direct them in this manner.

However, the forthcoming review is very important. To ensure we can have an evidence-based approach for this House and the public feeding into what the Central Bank is doing as part of that review, it is important that the Department writes to see if it can get the aggregated data from the Central Bank and to suggest that it might be published, because it would be helpful for making submissions to that review and playing a part in it. Of course, it is within the remit of this Chamber through the Oireachtas committees to engage with the Central Bank on this issue, not only under section 33AK but also section 33AM of the relevant Acts, and to have that debate with it directly.

It is also important to note, as I mentioned earlier, that mortgage lending has increased since these rules came into effect. Furthermore, these exceptions are not targets. It is for the banks, according to their risk appetite and what they think is prudent in terms of managing their loan books, to allow exceptions under the two criteria where they think it is appropriate and where it makes sense in the overall managing of their loan books. What we do not want is for a bank, where it was imprudent or improper to go to these full exceptions, to do so and put other lending and other customers at risk. We have seen that previously and we have seen its negative consequences.