Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 22 Jun 2016

Vol. 914 No. 2

Topical Issue Debate

Library Services

Deputy Mick Barry

What does the Government have against library services? They were severely hit by cuts, including staff numbers, during the austerity years. Now, when there is talk about an improvement in the economy, one would think major improvements for library services would be lined up and yet more attacks are taking place under the new Government.

Library services are the responsibility of local authorities. Several areas are being brought together and placed under single management structures. The proposal is that Cavan and Monaghan, Laois and Offaly, Longford and Westmeath, Carlow and Kilkenny and Cork city and county, which is my area, be amalgamated. Incredibly, Sligo, Leitrim and Donegal will be lumped together under the responsibility of one authority.

Does this herald the end of local decision-making for library services? The evidence would seem to point in that direction. There are any number of things wrong with this proposal. It means that decision-making will be remote. Will a local authority which is used to making decisions for rural areas make them for urban ones or vice versa? From what I can see, no cost-benefit analysis of this hare-brained scheme was done. The suspicion is that it will be a cover for cuts. It is a very undemocratic decision and goes against the views of local councillors and library staff. I understand the committee that planned the change did not visit the areas concerned. It certainly did not visit Cork.

It is a Topical Issue today because IMPACT members who work in the library services in the areas to which I referred are engaged in a ballot which will close on 1 July. The result will be known on 4 July. I congratulate library workers for taking a stand in defence of public services and library services in their areas. What is the current plan?

First, let us scrap those hare-brained proposals and, second, let us expand the library service and reinvest in it. Let us make up for the lost decade and all the cuts implemented on the library services by the previous Fine Gael-led Government and the Fianna Fáil-led Government prior to that.

Last, but by no means least, we should recruit staff to the library services. For the past ten years those who have left have not been replaced, which places an extra burden of work on the remaining staff. I spoke to a librarian in the Cork city area for approximately half an hour. He doubts there is anyone in the city's library services under the age of 34 at the moment. There are many young people who would be very good at the job so let us expand the service, recruit staff and ditch this mad scheme the Minister of State is trying to implement at the moment.

Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Damien English)

I thank the Deputy for raising the issue and giving me an opportunity to bring some clarity to it. Yesterday, I spoke at an event in Tullamore library. I was delighted to be present for the launch of two very important initiatives involving longer opening hours and ease of access when no staff are present. The intention is that people can access the library by means of a pincode and card, which makes it available 365 days a year for much longer hours, at weekends and on Christmas Day. Libraries are adapting and changing the way they do their business and all the staff in the libraries are to be commended on all the great work they are doing in coming up with new ideas and dealing with challenges. In recent years libraries have been restored to playing a central part of the community and they are doing a great job.

The Government is committed to driving on the process and progressing with the changes in the services offered to the public and to make library buildings more accessible to the public in terms of longer hours and the facilitation of community events. As Deputies, we attend many such events and the focal point provided by libraries is evident to us. We wish to enhance that and build on it rather than trying to reduce services on the ground. It is not correct to say that the rationale behind the shared service model will threaten the service, as that is not the case.

I understand there has been concern among some IMPACT members regarding proposed changes to public library structures. Under Opportunities for All, the national public library strategy 2013 to 2017, a review of the existing organisational structures was recommended in order to establish stronger, more effective and efficient public libraries. Following on from that, a working group was established to examine the potential for shared services in the public library service. The working group determined that the current structures in terms of organisation, workforce and service delivery were in need of reform in order for the public library service to be in a position to maximise service delivery opportunities and achieve best outcomes in terms of effectiveness, efficiency and customer service, which is what I witnessed yesterday when I visited the library in Tullamore.

The key challenge in the current structure is the need for the creation of scale for existing library authorities. In order to achieve that, the working group determined that a new shared services structure for library authorities should be established, with a minimum population target of 100,000 as an appropriate basis for determining a libraries' shared services structure. The working group's recommendations were set out in the report, Managing the Delivery of Effective Library Services. The local authorities identified for shared services are County Cavan and County Monaghan; County Laois and County Offaly; County Longford and County Westmeath; County Carlow and County Kilkenny; and County Sligo, County Roscommon and County Leitrim. It is also recommended that Cork city and County Cork, which are currently the only affiliated city and county services operating individually, should be operated as a shared service. It would appear to be common sense that such a change would happen.

There will be no closures of any libraries under the initiative but rather an enhancement of the services available in the smaller local authorities. I made the point yesterday that it is very often the case that the library is the key building in smaller towns and villages and the key focal point for the community. We wish to protect and enhance the position of libraries and safeguard them for the future. The intention is to ensure that no matter where one lives, one will be able to avail of the extensive services the libraries now offer. Earlier this year, my Department announced a €22 million capital investment programme which underpins my and the Government's commitment to the library service in Ireland. The proposed model seeks to put in place planning and implementation arrangements that will deliver more effective and efficient public libraries with a view to securing the delivery of an enhanced quality and range of services. That will ensure the long-term sustainability of the library service in those areas.

Libraries are evolving and becoming the centre for community engagement. The library service now plays a very important role in community life. In addition to what many still perceive to be the traditional preserve of the library, namely, book lending, the local library now offers so much more. It provides educational supports, community meeting facilities, business support, study spaces, and cultural and research supports, among other areas. It provides a space and a range of services that communities might not otherwise be able to access. My Department, through the new initiatives, wants to build on that and to enhance the services that already exist.

Under the proposed model, the city or county librarian would lead a central management team under the shared library management model with the establishment of a single library headquarters. The new enhanced management structure would provide a more efficient allocation of functions across senior management and enable strategic planning and a better focus on an increased range of services to the public.

In recent months my Department has been engaging with the respective local authorities to explore the implementation of the shared library management model. We are open to working with the local authorities concerned and if an alternative approach that yields the same result is suggested, we will consider it and work with the parties involved to achieve the best possible outcome for all.

Deputy Mick Barry

Sometimes I come into this place and I wonder whether the English language has any real meaning at all in here. I listened carefully to the Minister of State's reply. He said he understands there are some concerns. The Minister of State is not talking about library workers going on their tea break and saying, on balance, they think there might be some issues with his proposals. Hundreds of workers in the library services he is in charge of are balloting for industrial action due to the proposals. For the Minister of State to say he realises there is some concern is putting the situation rather mildly.

The Minister of State said the libraries are adapting to change and taking on new challenges. That is more Government-speak. If I left this place and someone were to come up to me and give me a kick in the thigh while wearing a pair of studded football boots, I would have to adapt to change and start taking on new challenges. It is not necessarily a positive thing that libraries must adapt to change when the change amounts to making the decision-making structures within the libraries far more remote and less responsive to local and community needs than was the case previously. My supplementary question is whether the Minister of State is prepared to stop this crazy plan and to recognise that given the economic recovery it is time to invest in a serious way in the public library service, in particular to start recruiting young people to it.

Deputy Damien English

I will reiterate what I said in case it is not clear enough for Deputy Barry. When I said I understand, it means I understand and am aware of the concerns of the staff involved, just as Deputy Barry does. I do not say I agree with all the concerns. I reiterate that the shared library management model is not about an amalgamation of the library service; rather it is an enhancement of the senior management structure across the designated local authorities and the library authorities. The thinking behind the model is to increase the capacity of smaller local authorities to deliver library services on a comparative basis to those in larger authorities. I accept that Deputy Barry represents parts of Cork but I represent rural areas as well as urban areas and I am always being told that people can get more in urban library services and why can people not get the same service in rural areas. Local communities want their libraries to continually expand, adapt to new realities and to provide more and better services. Such services involve providing access for students to go to libraries at weekends to do research or study because they can get WiFi there and they cannot get it down the road. That is what I mean when I refer to adapting the service. Libraries are doing that very well and I compliment all the staff on doing that. Deputy Barry should not try to mix my words when I am complimenting the work library staff are doing in delivering a local service. That is what we are trying to do - put libraries in a better position to be able to do that.

The thinking behind the model is to enhance the opportunities for access and to give a better service as well. The library service will remain the sole responsibility of the respective authority, as will the financing of those services, and each library service will be branded as it is currently. Notwithstanding that, I am aware of the concerns of IMPACT members on the proposed approach. That is the reason we are engaging with the respective authorities to explore alternative approaches that might yield the same result. We are open to other options. If Deputy Barry can make suggestions that will give the same result, we are prepared to look at them, which is a strong staffing structure with the capacity to deliver a high-quality service across the library service. That is what we are doing, and when I engage with people who work in the library service that is what they want to be part of as well. They are proud of what they do because they realise that the number of people using library services is increasing by the week and by the year. We are trying to build on that. I cannot stress sufficiently the importance of the local library. It is one of the most important assets we have in communities.

Unemployment Levels

Deputy David Cullinane

I raised this issue in response to the Central Statistics Office quarterly household survey figures on unemployment, which show the unemployment rate in the south east is at 12.5%, compared with a rate of 8.4% nationally. The Minister may be aware that in 2013, as a Senator and a member of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, I was a rapporteur for a report called the South East Economic Development Strategy. I worked with the Minister of State, Deputy English, who has just left the Chamber and who was the Chairman of the joint committee at the time. It was an all-party report that made a number of key recommendations that must be acted upon if the south-east region is to be given the tools and ability to create the jobs it can create.

However, I also wish to draw the Minister's attention to a report published in June 2016 by a number of academics in Waterford Institute of Technology called the South East Economic Monitor. It states the south east has experienced improved consumer and business sentiment, which the authors welcome, but goes on to state that "when compared to national economic performance, and peer regions in Ireland, the data illustrates how the South East’s economy continues to be characterised by persistently high levels of unemployment, deprivation and ... lower job quality". It then refers to two datapoints which explain why this might be the case, namely, low educational attainment and low higher education capacity within the region, as well as the lack of new IDA-supported jobs over the past 25 years of a kind that have built greater capacity in other regions. This may be one reason they are performing better at present. The report continues by stating that in Waterford and the south east, the recession really kicked in in 2002 and was exacerbated by the national recession, which hit in 2007. The key figures in that report are similar to the type of issues I encountered when I did my work in 2012, during which time I engaged in many meetings right across the south-east region with stakeholders. These issues include 14 years of stagnation, 7,260 missing higher education places, 6,312 missing IDA-supported jobs in the south east, had it been given the same level of input from the IDA as were other regions, as well as low-quality jobs that are replacing high-quality jobs which were lost. All these pointers demonstrate real structural problems in the economy of the south east. Consequently, a number of measures are necessary, the first of which is the enterprise agencies tasked with creating jobs across the State must take a more regional approach. This does not appear to be the case in the south east. While there have been some improvements in recent years, a great deal more work must be done. Consequently, the IDA and Enterprise Ireland must step up to the plate for the south east. Figures and facts do not lie and the region simply is not getting enough of those jobs to support real economic improvement.

A joined-up strategy also is required and I had a meeting recently with the president of Waterford Institute of Technology, who spoke of the lack of a joined-up approach between the Government's regional job strategy and the institute's capital investment needs, such as the need for an engineering block and increased capacity in the laboratories to make sure it can meet the needs in this respect. As the Minister is aware, the university is a critical issue.

Finally, I received an answer to a parliamentary question to the Minister, Deputy Ross, in respect of the airport. One promise made as part of the programme for Government was an extension to the runway at the airport, which has been sold by a number of local Deputies who state they had it included in the aforementioned programme. However, in response to the parliamentary question, the Minister stated:

Development projects at the airports which are designed to expand capacity are a commercial matter for the airports themselves. In the case of the proposed runway extension at Waterford, I understand that the airport authorities are pursuing local interests for funding in relation to that project.

On reading that response, it does not seem to me as though millions of euro are being made available to Waterford Airport. The Minister might be able to respond to some of those issues, if possible, but the general issue is the high levels of unemployment.

Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation (Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor)

I thank the Deputy and acknowledge he has raised this matter with me a number of times. It also has been raised on the floor of this House. I am aware the economic crisis hit job numbers in the south east badly, with the loss of 37,800 jobs between 2007 and 2012. However, through the focused collaborative approach and a range of reforms delivered in the region in recent years, the unemployment rate has fallen from a peak of 20.1% in 2012 to approximately 12.5% in early 2016. Although it has fallen and is down at 12.6%, I am aware it remains above the national average and the Government must work on that. At present, 204,400 people are at work in the south-east region, which is an increase of 23,100 over the period from 2012 to 2016. Over the past three years, employment growth in the region has increased at a faster pace than the national rate of increase. While the current unemployment rate in the south east still is too high, these figures demonstrate the overall trend is one of steady recovery.

I will work relentlessly with the various agencies and stakeholders in the region to ensure this trend continues and that jobs continue to be created. The regional action plans for jobs initiative for the south east and the other seven regions is a concrete example of the targeted approach the Government is undertaking boost regional employment. The core objective of the plan is to have a further 25,000 people at work in the south-east region by 2020. The plan is being monitored and driven by an implementation committee comprising representatives from the enterprise sector, the local authority, the enterprise agencies and other public bodies in the region. The south-east regional plan contains several key actions that will be delivered over the period from 2015 to 2017. These include completing the construction of the new technology and industrial buildings in Waterford and Carlow, establishing the new regional skills forum, developing the world-leading sectoral clusters and ecosystems and continuing the development of the technological university in the south east. I intend to visit the region to meet stakeholders and the Deputy, please God, to ensure plans are being implemented in the region. I expect the first progress report of the south-east plan to be published in the third quarter of this year.

The implementation of the regional plans is being supported by a fund of €250 million to be provided to Enterprise Ireland and the IDA. On 1 June, I announced an initial allocation of €5 million in competitive funding for 48 local and regional initiatives under two competitive calls, the first being the local enterprise office, LEO, competitive fund and the second being the community enterprise initiative. In the south-east region, six projects involving LEOs were successful under the LEO competitive fund and a further four projects were successful under the community enterprise initiative. On a national level, I remain committed to growing employment through the 2016 national Action Plan for Jobs process now and in its fifth iteration. I will continue to work with the enterprise agencies to ensure targeted actions are taken to improve the employment and enterprise environment in the region.

Deputy David Cullinane

I welcome the Minister's response and her intention to visit the south-east region. I, of course, will take up the opportunity to meet her when she visits and I hope she will have good meetings with stakeholders across the region. I also wish to take the opportunity to acknowledge the contribution of her predecessor, Deputy Bruton, who, to be fair, shone a spotlight on the south-east region and chaired an action group that has made some difference. I acknowledge this and am not being negative in respect of the Government's approach. However, the Minister's response acknowledges we have real structural problems in the region that must be addressed. While the unemployment figures have fallen marginally ahead of the national figures, they are pretty much in line with where the national decline was and consequently, there still is a massive 4% gap between the national figure and the regional figure. The gap is huge and cannot be underestimated for real people who are out of work and for whom jobs are not there. There is an unemployment rate of less than 7% in Dublin but yet the equivalent rate in the south east is 12.5%. Moreover, it is much higher in some parts of my constituency of Waterford where there are unemployment black spots even within a region that is suffering. Consequently, I appeal to the Minister to engage with the enterprise agencies first and foremost and to work collaboratively with other Ministers. She should work with the Minister for Education and Skills to ensure the region gets the university it needs and with the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, on the transport issue to deal with funding for the airport and on other measures.

If the Minister gets the opportunity at some point to read the south east economic development strategy, she will see many of the recommendations made which are practical, realistic, sensible, deliverable and will make a difference as they have not yet been implemented. They could form part of a revised jobs action plan for the region.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

I will be visiting the Deputy's constituency and I hope to meet him there along with other Oireachtas Members. I have been in touch with the regional director who has been specifically appointed there. She is Ms Anne-Marie Tierney-Le Roux. She was appointed in January 2015. I know that the Cork IDA Ireland office was managing the south east. She has assured me that the south east is definitely on IDA Ireland's radar. Waterford is being actively marketed to FDIs. I think it was about two weeks ago that I was reading the report by Dr. Ray Griffin and Dr. Cormac O'Keeffe. It was about the specific issues in Waterford. On the same day, the good news came through, as I am sure the Deputy is aware, that 160 jobs were announced-----

Deputy David Cullinane

Eurofins.

Deputy Mary Mitchell O'Connor

-----over five years for the bioanalytical company, Eurofins, in Dungarvan. The solution to the problem is to make sure that jobs come into the area. The Deputy has made very fine points that the area is above the national average, and even in parts of his own constituency it is way above that again. I will be making sure that happens.

If the Deputy does not mind, I wish to mention exactly what is happening on the implementation group that is there. The implementation group is made up of people from the local authorities, an industrial ambassador, Enterprise Ireland, the local enterprise offices, interested stakeholders and IDA Ireland. They are all at the table. If the Deputy is aware of empty office space, he should feed that information into that implementation group. The more information that we have on the ground from the stakeholders in the area, the better and the easier it is.

As the Minister, while it is great having IDA Ireland coming in with hundreds of jobs as well as Enterprise Ireland, I am also very conscious of the small businesses that want to flourish and need to be supported. For those who want to start their businesses, it is also important that there are supports in place.

Hospital Services

Deputy John Brassil

I wish the Minister of State, Deputy Catherine Byrne, success in her new role. I look forward to working with her over the coming years in what is a very difficult area and a challenge for all of us. Today, I wish to specifically mention a very serious situation we have in University Hospital Kerry whereby we do not have an acute stroke unit. There have been great strides and progress made in many hospitals around the country. At present, 29 hospitals are serving stroke patients and 21 of those have an acute stroke unit. Unfortunately, University Hospital Kerry does not have one.

I wish to bring the Minister of State's attention to a report produced by the national stroke programme on the stroke services in University Hospital Kerry. The critical findings show that University Hospital Kerry does not provide an organised service for stroke or minimum mini-stroke patients. It does not have a dedicated stroke unit and it does not have a clinical lead for stroke treatment. It does not have a clinical nurse specialist in stroke treatment. It does not add to the national stroke register and it does not have access to early support discharge. Those findings are startling. It also states that these deficits would not only impact on death and disability, but would also impact on stroke standards, for example, early swallow screening, ongoing staff training, and patient and family education and support. The report adds that mortality for ischemic strokes - those essentially involved in the blockage of arteries supplying blood to the brain - are the cause of the majority of strokes and are 40% higher than that of the national average. It concludes that University Hospital Kerry is not providing an organised stroke service for its population. While national stroke services have improved significantly since the stroke audit in 2008, this is not reflected in University Hospital Kerry.

I have spoken to the doctors in Kerry hospital. Since the departure of a dedicated stroke specialist three years ago, that position has not been filled. There is still no filling of the clinical nurse specialist position. There was a post which was transferred to rheumatology due to financial constraint. That needs to be brought back. There is a lot of work that needs to be done immediately. There is a system failure here. The Irish Heart Foundation, which does fantastic work in this area, has flagged Kerry hospital as being one that it is extremely concerned about. My concern is greater than the lack of the acute stroke unit alone. Kerry hospital is supposed to provide this and if it does not, patients will start going to Limerick and Cork and there is the threat that the status of Kerry hospital will be challenged. There are wide-ranging implications around this issue and there needs to be immediate action. People's lives are at stake.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Catherine Byrne)

I thank the Deputy for providing me with the opportunity to speak on the subject of strokes. I am replying to this debate on behalf of my colleague, the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, and I am sorry that he cannot be here.

The aim of the HSE national clinical programme for stroke is to improve the quality, access and cost-effectiveness of stroke services in Ireland. Since the commencement of this programme, nine new stroke units have opened, bringing the total number of stroke units to 21. This represents good progress from the single unit that was available in 2008. I would like to draw the attention of the House to the national stroke audit which was published last year and pointed to encouraging improvement in many areas of stroke care. Specifically, the audit identified that inpatient mortality has reduced and discharges directed to nursing homes have reduced, and this has been matched with an increase in patients who are discharged directly home after a stroke.

The second national stroke audit emphasises the role of a stroke unit in a hospital. It reported that the provision of care in a stroke unit is supported by the evidence, reducing morbidity and mortality. Therefore, it is suggested that all sites managing acute patients should provide stroke unit care and all sites should develop their stroke units to provide the highest possible quality of care, including ensuring units are appropriately staffed, equipped and provide ongoing education and training for staff, patients and carers alike.

I am advised by the HSE that 24-7 access to safe stroke thrombolysis is available nationally. It is also worth noting that our current thrombolysis rate of 11.6% exceeds the national target of 9% and is among the best in national rates worldwide. I appreciate the Deputy's particular interest in University Hospital Kerry and the absence of a dedicated stroke unit at that hospital. I am advised by the hospital that recruitment and retention of the required staff is proving to be challenging. However, I understand that the business cases have been prepared for additional support staff, such that a stroke unit may be established.

These business cases will be considered by the South/South West Hospitals Group in the first instance and then by the HSE acute hospital division.

I am also advised that the case for a further geriatrician for the hospital has been referred to the consultant applications advisory committee for consideration. While there is no dedicated stroke unit at the hospital, I have been assured procedures are in place such that stroke patients can continue to receive treatment within hospital. Solutions are being sought across the hospital group to address the current situation. In that regard, the clinical needs of a patient will always be the determining factor, so patients will be transferred to tertiary hospitals if the need arises.

I accept that the Deputy will be disappointed that I cannot be more definite about the timescale for the establishment of a stroke unit at the hospital. However, the roll-out of stroke units is a work in progress and I thank him for drawing the particular need in Kerry to my attention.

Deputy John Brassil

To say I am disappointed is an understatement. I am aware of the difficulties; we all are. The problem is that the situation is ongoing for three years. Somebody must take responsibility to get this unit established. The Minister said that thrombolysis is available nationally at a rate of 11.6% and exceeds the national target. In Kerry it is at 4%, as opposed to the national average of 11.6%. These figures are frightening. What is required is the establishment of the unit and the recruitment of the staff. There should be active participation by the Department and the HSE to recruit the necessary staff.

The last acute stroke clinical lead, Dr. McManus, resigned a number of years ago. Since then, in anticipation of the appointment of a replacement, the development of the acute unit has basically been in abeyance. That is no longer acceptable. Kerry General Hospital provides this service but does not have the facilities or staff to do it properly, so people are in danger. It is endangering their lives. It is a statistical fact that when proper stroke treatment is provided, the incidence of death and disability is reduced by 7%. That is a real figure and people are suffering due to the lack of a service that is provided in a majority of hospitals but not in one as significant as Kerry General Hospital.

I ask the Minister of State to convey to the Minister, Deputy Harris, the serious nature of this problem. We need action, not words. The unit must be set up and the staff and consultants must be put in place.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I certainly will convey the Deputy's concerns. The figure of 4% for strokes in Kerry General Hospital is a huge concern. I emphasise again that the Minister has made it clear that the HSE is trying its best to recruit staff but it has been challenging. It is in the process of ensuring there will be a unit in place as soon as possible. I will convey the Deputy's comments to the Minister. I will also mention the report he referred to, although I did not catch its name. Perhaps he would give me the name of it.

Deputy John Brassil

The national stroke programme.

Deputy Catherine Byrne

I thank the Deputy. I understand the Deputy's concerns and I will convey them to the Minister to the best of my ability when I meet him later.

Foster Care Policy

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for allowing me to raise this important issue. I am delighted the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs is present. I congratulate her on her appointment as Minister and I look forward to working constructively with her throughout her period of office.

As of 31 March 2016, there were 6,405 children in care. Of these, 93% were in foster care, with 4,162 in general foster care and 1,790 in foster care with relatives. The majority of children in care are in foster care family settings in the community. I pay tribute to all the foster parents in Ireland who do, and have done, so much over the years. I raise this matter following the public outcry over a situation where a nine year old boy was taken from the care of his grandparents due to concerns Tusla had regarding their age. Both of them are in their mid-sixties. I am 58 and I have a child aged 14 years. There are many people like me; it is not unusual. It is a strange ruling from that point of view. Incidentally, my wife, the child's mother, is the same age.

While I realise the Minister cannot comment on individual cases, she should know that many people were stunned and appalled to realise that the rule regarding a 40 year age gap was in existence and could be applied in that way. My office has been inundated with calls, e-mails and post on this matter since then. It has terrified grandparents and foster carers throughout the State. It is ageist and discriminatory and must be removed as a rule in fostering arrangements. Recently, I tabled a parliamentary question to the Minister asking her in what circumstances she could instruct or engage Tusla, Child and Family Agency, to alter its policy on a given issue under its remit. The Minister's reply included the following:

Under the Child and Family Agency Act, 2013 there are powers conferred on me as Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, which allow for additional written policy direction and/or guidelines to be given to the Agency. This is covered by section 47 and Section 48 of the Act. My Department works very closely with Tusla and closely monitors ... The need for any additional policy guidance is kept under review.

I ask the Minister, on behalf of all the foster parents and, indeed, grandparents who commit themselves daily to the love and care of their grandchildren or other relatives, to use her power to instruct Tusla to abandon this cruel regulation if it exists in that type of terminology. It is ageist and very damaging. Grandparents have always been hugely involved, especially since the recession, in rearing children, as we see every day. Indeed, I have grandchildren and love bringing them to school, collecting them and bringing them to sports. There is an old saying that it takes a parish to raise a child. It certainly involves extended families and people are fortunate to have grandparents who are retired. It keeps the grandparents young and active as well. There is a huge, loving bond there. It was very damaging in the case concerned to have used that criterion. It sent shock waves throughout the community that it could be a reason. It should not be there. Grandparents play a huge role in forming the child and, indeed, in maintaining family decorum and rearing children daily throughout the State.

Minister for Children and Youth Affairs (Deputy Katherine Zappone)

I thank the Deputy. It is great that he raised this question and I welcome the opportunity to clarify the 40 year gap guideline on the public record, so we can clarify matters in the minds of the public.

The age of a foster carer or relative foster carer is never the sole reason for deciding on the suitability of a placement for a child in State care. The 40 year age difference between a foster carer and foster child is a guideline, not a policy or rule, and does not determine a decision regarding suitability. The guidance for foster care committees outlines a range of areas to be taken into account by social workers when carrying out assessments of prospective carers to meet the immediate and long-term needs of a child in care. The social worker's focus is on the rights of the child to be placed in the best possible placement for them. The guidelines take into account research which supports stable and suitable placements for children.

For example, where possible and in their interests, the guidelines suggest that children are placed with relatives and foster carers from the same ethnic or cultural background and that foster carers are in good physical and mental health. It is also recommended that placements are made with carers who are open to ongoing engagement with social workers and the child's family. That is the first really important point I want to make.

I have raised this matter with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, and can confirm that there is currently a review of the overall criteria used by foster care committees in decision making. The review is taking into account the differing needs of children coming into care and ensuring it supports the best placements being made available to children who need them.

I completely agree that older foster carers and relative foster carers, who may be grandparents, uncles and aunts, all play an important role in our care system. It is really important for me to say that. As well as caregivers, they can be mentors, historians and vital links between the child in care and their wider family and friends. It is evident that grandparents and other relatives play a vital role in the lives of many children in care. Tusla has reported that 28% of carers are relative carers. There are numerous cases of children in care placed with their grandparents.

This is not simply a desk exercise, as some commentators have said. The assessment of foster carers, including relative carers, involves a lengthy period of interviews and home visits, including checking references and Garda vetting. In light of all these factors, the age of the carer alone is clearly not a determining issue but it would be a clear oversight on the part of social workers if this was not considered in context. I do not consider it necessary to direct Tusla on this operational guidance.

It is obvious that every decision made by the foster care committee will not be welcomed by all. It is regrettable that there can be hurt. I am not necessarily referring to age issues here. At all times, the focus is and must be on the long-term benefit for the child. It can be a very difficult decision to make. This can seem to some to be a very high standard to expect of a foster carer. It is and it should be. Most children in care have been there for more than one year and over one third will have been in care for more than five years. By and large, there is good placement stability and for some time now, over 90% of children in care are in a family foster placement in the community.

A professional judgement must be made. Most children in care are there following a court order under the Child Care Act 1991. Each case must be treated on its merits. The professional assessment can be tested in the courts when making an application for a care order. In light of these considerations, I cannot in good conscience direct Tusla to omit or ignore anything needed to inform the long-term care of the child.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Like the Minister, I and everybody else want the best care outcomes for all children, particularly those in foster care. I am not asking the Minister to direct or interfere in an intrusive manner but I ask for a degree of common sense, reflection and understanding of the greater role of grandparents. We all feel it because we are going the one way in age and ageism is such an issue. The Minister acknowledged the role grandparents play and I know Tusla acknowledges it as well but if there are other issues, it is very important that it is not left hanging out there and that age is the issue. This is where guidelines and better interaction and engagement with grandparents and foster parents on the part of social workers and Tusla officials to bring about better understanding come in. If there is no clarity or immediate understanding that there are other reasons, they obviously feel it is done on age grounds. If the children are then removed in some cases to the care of other foster families who are similar in age, it makes it more confusing. I am not here to knock Tusla but to say that I have received calls from all over the country. There needs to be some kind of robust appeals system, better engagement with people, explanation and understanding of the foster carer role. I would not for one minute condone any criticism of foster care. Like anyone, we understand how serious it is but we need more latitude and greater empathy with foster carers, particularly if they are grandparents because of the bond and family connections. As the Minister said, they pass on their heritage and ethnic status. There is no better place to do it than in the extended family, be they grandparents or great aunts or uncles.

Deputy Katherine Zappone

I again thank the Deputy and very much take on board his points. It is correct that he raised this issue because he is responding not just to his constituents but to grandparents' calls from throughout the country. I am glad that he did and that I have the opportunity to tell him on the public record that it is not the case that all grandparents are not good enough to have children placed in their care. Clearly, that is not the case. Many grandparents do this and both the State and I am grateful for their generosity, as are their families.

I also take the Deputy's point about better communication on this issue. Perhaps the Department and Tusla are already learning that so it is helpful to hear the Deputy's comments in that regard. Tusla is proactive on this issue. The criteria and guidelines are already being reviewed and Tusla will pay attention to the Deputy's comments here. In addition to what I have put on the record, it is important to say that the age guideline can be disregarded if it is in the professional judgment of the social worker making the assessment that it is not in the best interests of the child. It is there as part of a wide range of criteria and guidelines. At the same time, it is a good question to put to Tusla in the context of its review. It is reviewing matters and is hearing that we are asking whether it is necessarily ageist or discriminatory to have a 40 year age rule given that it is in the context of a number of other guidelines and is considered along with others. I do not think so but it is still something Tusla should consider and no doubt it will do so in light of the Deputy raising the issue here and my response.

Sitting suspended at 3.50 p.m. and resumed at 4.30 p.m.