Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 27 Sep 2016

Vol. 922 No. 1

Topical Issue Debate

Local Authority Funding

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Time is short, given I am sharing time with Deputy Martin Kenny, who I am glad is also raising this issue. The Minister is well aware of the situation. On 14 September I sought a meeting with him and the key official involved in this issue. As of today, nobody has met with me. A private meeting took place last week with Deputy Tony McLoughlin, after which he managed to successfully return to the people of Sligo and tell them they have to increase their property tax by 15%. The people do not have to increase their property tax by 15%. Fingal County Council has €100 million on deposit but there is no shortage of library services there, which is the latest debacle in terms of the difficulty with a financial plan that is totally unworkable.

In reply to a recent parliamentary question, the Minister stated that borrowing for a local authority is a reserved function. That is a typical Sir Humphrey, "Yes, Minister", get-out-of-jail-type clause. Section 106 of the Local Government Act states that is not the case and that the Department has to sanction said borrowing and satisfy itself that this borrowing can be met. The reality is that, many years later, Sligo has a debt of approximately €100 million to €120 million, based on figures supplied by the Minister's Department. His county owes €600 million yet there are no library cuts there, no cuts in Dún Laoghaire and no cuts in Fingal.

What kind of idiots does the Minister take the people of Sligo to be? We are equal citizens of this country and we are entitled to services. The same mandate and votes that Deputy Tony McLoughlin got are the ones Deputy Martin Kenny and I got. The people are equal citizens. The Minister should not throw us under the bus like the ECB or the European Commission did to Ireland, because that is precisely what the Minister and his officials are doing to the people of Sligo. Sligo will not stand for it. I am here today, and will be here again next week and the week after, to demand that the Minister make appropriate support available to Sligo local authority-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

-----which has already, at the behest of the Department, cut staff by 42%, taking €8.5 million out of the local authority. For what?

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Deputy should conclude.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

It is to satisfy officials in the Department who, when I was a Senator, refused to meet me, and who, since 14 September, have refused to meet me.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Thank you, Deputy.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

That kind of democracy looks a lot more like that practised in the Reichstag or the Duma, but not what we should be standing over here as "new politics".

Deputy Simon Coveney

I would have expected more from the Deputy, to be honest.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I thank the Minister very much but he is not here to assess my performance. We are the people; we assess his performance.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Deputy should resume his seat. He is eroding his colleague's time.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

They are as entitled to the Minister's support as the people in his constituency, when his constituency owes €600 million-----

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Deputy MacSharry should resume his seat. I call Deputy Martin Kenny.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

-----and having private meetings with his Deputies when he ignores requests from Deputy Martin Kenny and me. He is a disgrace.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Deputy MacSharry should resume his seat. I call Deputy Kenny.

Deputy Martin Kenny

We have an unworkable financial plan in Sligo and that is the reality. The people of Sligo pay their property tax the same as people do everywhere else. The people in rural Sligo - in Tubbercurry or Ballymote - when they build a house have to pay their development charges, and for those charges they are told they will get services. The people of Sligo did not run up this bill of legacy debt. They deserve services the same as people deserve them in every other part of the country.

The financial plan that was put in place means that, this year, there will be a surplus of over €2 million in County Sligo. It has already reached €1.4 million. This is money that is being taken out of the local economy and taken away from the local people, who would have spent it in local shops and businesses. Next year, the surplus is to increase to €3.4 million and the next year to over €4 million. That is totally unworkable in a county like Sligo. It is not like we have huge economic development or growth west of the Shannon. A Brexit crisis is facing us and we have a county and a region which are, in effect, in economic decline compared to the rest of the country. There needs to be a recognition of this fact.

I implore the Minister to meet with Sligo County Council once again to review this entire financial plan and to come up with a new plan which is workable and which will provide services for people in the long term. The current plan simply will not work. The Minister will have a revolt on his hands if he continues down this path. I implore him to immediately meet with the elected representatives of County Sligo - the county councillors who were elected by the people - and work out a new plan which will work for the people. It is no good having a plan that works for the Department in Dublin if it does not provide library services, road services and everything else that is needed.

An example of the problem is seen in the fact that 12 temporary outdoor staff had to be taken on in Sligo last year, when funding became available due to the flooding, as there were no outdoor staff to do the work. Now that is coming to an end, those people will be let go, although we are facing another crisis in that regard. I implore the Minister to meet with the elected representatives from County Sligo to ensure a proper plan can be put in place that is workable and that will provide for the people.

Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government (Deputy Simon Coveney)

I thank both Deputies for raising this issue because it is one of real concern in Sligo. I met last week with the chief executive of the local authority in Sligo. It was not a political meeting. It was a meeting to go through a letter he had sent to me outlining the challenges the council faces. It is important to say that every local authority has a responsibility to manage its expenditure in a way that deals with everything from debt to providing an acceptable level of local services. It is true that the current chief executive came to the position in Sligo and is trying to deal with a lot of historical debt issues. There have been numerous meetings between very senior officials in my Department and officials from Sligo County Council and we continue to work with them to try to ensure that they can implement the plan that was signed off by the local authority only nine months ago.

Deputy Martin Kenny

It was done under threat.

Deputy Simon Coveney

No, it was not under threat. As part of the plan, the Department agreed to give an extra €1 million to Sligo each year over a five-year period. Only nine months later we are now in a situation where we are being told the plan is not workable. I have to stand over a situation where we are trying to bring back an acceptable level of financial management to the local authority in Sligo. Of all of the councils in the country I accept that Sligo County Council is under more pressure than any other. That is why we have a financial plan in place, which was agreed and signed off with the council, whereby Sligo gets special treatment. We put €1 million that otherwise would not go to Sligo into Sligo County Council each year for the next three to four years, up until 2019. It is not true to say that we are asking for a surplus of €4 million at any stage in the future. I am sorry but that is not accurate. In 2016 the figures are €2.3 million; in 2017, €3.41 million; in 2018, €3.1 million and in 2019, €2.8 million. Those are the figures that were signed off by the chief executive of Sligo County Council only last December. We are trying to work on that basis, with all the challenges faced by Sligo County Council and we continue to work in that regard.

The chief executive wrote to me with a number of asks before the meeting which were nothing to do with politics. They were about financial management. There was an issue in relation to local enterprise offices, LEOs, and we said we would accommodate that. There was also an issue about the impact of site resolution tax in Sligo, which we also said we would accommodate, and adjust the targets accordingly. Other issues included the deferral of payments from this year to next year. We are looking to see whether we can accommodate that. There is no politics at play here. What is happening is that I am trying to work with Sligo County Council to manage a very difficult historical debt situation, to ensure that over the next four or five years we get a level of management back into the financial resources that are available to Sligo that is sustainable into the future. At the same time, part of the financial plan was to ensure that services remain intact.

Reference was made to staff numbers but if one looks at staff numbers in neighbouring local authorities they are not that different to Sligo. I accept there are particular problems at the moment concerning the library service, because a number of staff are out. Of the 12 or so staff that are assigned across three libraries, a number of them are unable to work at the moment. Again, we are trying to work through that with the management as well. I will not come to the House and have people shout across the Chamber at me, saying that we are doing nothing for Sligo. We are working with a plan that Sligo signed off on and we are trying to ensure that it can be as workable as possible. We are adjusting targets to try to address some of the requests that have come from management in the local authority and we will continue to work with it to ensure that we find a viable way forward.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The reality on the ground is that this plan was never workable. We can hide behind the fact that the Minister said it was not rammed down Sligo's throat as a plan that it had to adopt. Deputy Martin Kenny referred to a surplus of €4 million. The Minister then read out the amounts of €3.4 million and €3.1 million. What is the difference? If we go back a few years to when Donegal had some difficulty-----

Deputy Simon Coveney

Did Deputy MacSharry object to the plan at the time?

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Excuse me. Will the Minister go to the assistant secretary in question and ask him why he did not have the manners to acknowledge his own elected representatives and meet a Senator - he did not do so - and the Minister so far has refused to do the same? The Minister should remember what is behind the confidence and supply agreement because one cannot just take 65,000 people in Sligo and cast them aside. Nothing will take from the fact that last Wednesday the Minister sent his Deputy, Deputy Tony McLoughlin, and his councillor, Cathaoirleach Hubert Keaney, back to Sligo and said that the property tax should be increased by 50%. What will happen next? Will the people of Sligo be expected to pay more income tax specifically for their local hospital, more car tax specifically for the repair of the roads? The Minister should get with it. If this was happening in Cork there would be a revolution, but no, it is little old Sligo where the Government has just one Deputy for 65,000 people.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Is that why Deputy MacSharry is grandstanding?

Deputy Marc MacSharry

We will not stand for it. The Minister should get used to this kind of robust debate because that is what is going to happen again and again as long as he shows continuing contempt for the people of Sligo.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister said the local authority has an obligation to manage its own budget.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Yes.

Deputy Martin Kenny

But all of us here have an obligation to ensure that all of the people in the country get an equal and adequate service for what they pay for.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Hear, hear.

Deputy Martin Kenny

It is the people that we represent. Some people who were employed by the State as servants of the State in Sligo made mistakes in the past during the boom that happened in this country but to talk about money that was won or lost is like talking about the rain that fell last week. It is over, it is gone. We need to look at the new situation and move things forward. I fully accept that the Minister has met with people and that he is trying to sort out the situation but the truth is that the plan that was put in place simply does not work and cannot work for the people of Sligo. It is a serious problem if people in any regional town in the country do not have access to a library service or when those who are on a waiting list for a housing grant cannot even get it processed never mind get the grant money paid because of the absence of staff in the local authority. That is a problem not just for Sligo but for the country. We represent everyone in the country in this House. If this country is about anything it should be about ensuring that people get a proper and adequate service.

I again appeal to the Minister to sit down, not to talk about individual parts of the plan that was put in place that might be running into difficulty, but to look at the plan in its entirety and recognise that it is simply unworkable. Regardless of whether the plan was agreed in good faith in the past or if people have different views on how it came about, the reality is that it does not and will not work for the people of Sligo and the Minister must sit down with the elected representatives of the area, redo the plan and come up with a new scenario that will work.

Deputy Simon Coveney

What we are trying to do is ensure that it does work. We are showing flexibility, which we have been asked to do by the chief executive and his team. That is exactly what we have been trying to do.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

And tell the people to put up the tax.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Minister should be allowed to speak without interruption.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We have not told the people to do anything.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

That is exactly what the Minister did, himself and-----

Deputy Simon Coveney

We did not.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Is the Minister denying it?

Deputy Simon Coveney

I am.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The property tax in Sligo was to be increased by 50%.

Deputy Simon Coveney

No.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

The Minister offered another €100,000 a year. He is calling his own people liars.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Deputy MacSharry is out of order.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I am not calling anybody a liar. Deputy MacSharry is.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

It was decided to put 50% on the property tax for the people of Sligo. That is what the Minister did and he is denying it now. He is calling poor Deputy McLoughlin and Councillor Keaney liars.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Deputy MacSharry should sit down. I call the Minister.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Deputy MacSharry is looking for a meeting with me.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

Such grandstanding has not been witnessed for some time.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

What are you saying? You stay out of it.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Is that the way Deputy MacSharry negotiates?

Deputy Marc MacSharry

We will deal with the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe, on defence matters. In the meantime, he should stay out of this debate.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Deputy MacSharry should not interrupt.

Deputy Finian McGrath

He is back with a bang.

Deputy Simon Coveney

I would say Deputy MacSharry is someone who is easy to negotiate with. We are working through those issues, as we are obliged to do. Sligo County Council has an obligation to work through some very difficult financial matters at the moment. If I simply decide to grant significantly more money to Sligo to deal with difficult issues I had better take it from somebody else.

Deputy Martin Kenny

The Minister could at least enter negotiations.

Deputy Simon Coveney

Let me answer the question because the Deputy had the courtesy at least to ask some questions. What we will continue to do is work with Sligo County Council to try to ensure that a plan that was signed off by Sligo County Council nine months ago actually works. We will show flexibility and give support where needed, which is what we are looking at doing at the moment. However, we cannot simply pretend there are not difficult financial and historical issues that need to be dealt with. We cannot just-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

So throw the people under the bus.

Deputy Simon Coveney

No, we are not throwing anybody under any bus.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

That is exactly what the Minister is doing.

Deputy Simon Coveney

We do not accept-----

Deputy Marc MacSharry

All people are equal, except in Sligo. We expect to pay more tax.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Minister to reply, without interruption.

Deputy Simon Coveney

That is a democratic decision for councillors to make.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

Oh, please. They took it yesterday and they will not increase the rate by 15%.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

The Deputy is abusing the privilege of the House. He is overstating it.

Deputy Marc MacSharry

I learned from the Acting Chairman.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

It must be a west of Ireland thing. I do not think the Taoiseach is the only one who has rediscovered his mojo.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Cad é an Ghaeilge ar "mojo"?

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I do not think there is any, Mattie.

Flood Relief Schemes Funding

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I am delighted the Ceann Comhairle chose this issue and thank him for doing so. I also thank the Minister of State, Deputy Canney, for being here. The Topical Issue concerns flood relief, particularly on the south Kilkenny bank of the River Suir. My part of the world is blessed with many things, including many rivers, which have many beneficial effects in terms of tourism and scenery, but one of the problems with major rivers that has affected all parts of the country in the last few years is flooding. The Minister of State, Deputy Canney, is still relatively new to his position and I wish him well in it. There is an ambitious programme that is partly under way at present and that I hope will get fully under way over the next few months in terms of relieving flooding across the country. In my own part of the world, Inistioge, Thomastown and Graiguenamanagh were badly affected by the flooding earlier this year. They are part of the Department's CFRAM scheme, which will see progress.

Today, I raise the issues of two small Suir tributaries in south Kilkenny, namely, the Pill River in Pilltown, from where it gets its name, and Portnascully Pill in Mooncoin, which are very substantial local tributaries and cause a significant degree of flooding, not just to farmland but also to houses and property. In the case of both rivers in the most recent flooding events, a number of families had to leave their homes, some for the very first time. I suppose it is symptomatic of a wider problem across the country that many of our smaller rivers and streams are overgrown and have not seen any measures to alleviate flooding for many years. I know that the situation is complicated and complex in that there may be European directives and national law which limit the amount of work in some cases that can be carried out.

The problem with these two rivers is that the local authority in Kilkenny has submitted plans and has not received, as I understand it, any word yet from the OPW. I hope that in his response, the Minister of State might have at least some timeframe. I have always found that people are not unrealistic, in particular rural people affected by flooding, and they know these things take time. However, they expect they will be given an indication as to when some flood relief measures may be put into place. I hope the Minister of State will have at least a timeframe for these two communities in south Kilkenny which have suffered great distress in the last number of serious flooding events, with people forced to leave their homes, as I said already.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Seán Canney)

I am grateful to the Deputy for raising this question, which gives me an opportunity to address the House on the subject.

The Office of Public Works has been working in close co-operation with Kilkenny County Council in recent years to assist the council in developing an application for funding assistance under the OPW's minor flood mitigation works and coastal protection scheme to deal with the flooding problems in the areas mentioned by the Deputy. Earlier applications for funding under the scheme lacked sufficient information to allow a decision to be taken on them. Discussions have taken place between the OPW regional engineering staff and their counterparts in the council over the period to clarify certain important matters relating to the flooding problem and its impact on properties and lands in the affected area.

In May 2016, Kilkenny County Council submitted an application for funding under the minor works scheme to undertake studies in two locations. The first of these was for Fanningstown-Owning and the second one was for Knockhouse to Portnascully via Dungooly.

I am informed by my officials that consideration of the application is now nearing finalisation and that a letter will issue to the council in the coming days indicating funding approval of €18,000 in total for the projects in question.

A total of 11 projects have been approved for County Kilkenny since the minor works scheme was introduced in 2009 with total funding approval of almost €1.1 million. This scheme is of great benefit and assistance to local authorities in addressing small-scale flooding issues by providing the necessary funding to carry out the required studies and works to alleviate such issues within their administrative areas.

The scheme has been very successful to date, with more than 560 projects being approved to the value of approximately €37 million, which has helped provide flood protection to over 5,000 properties. I have very recently written to every local authority encouraging them to consider and review the possibilities within their areas for continued and, where possible, increased use of the scheme.

The Deputy will also be aware of the catchment flood risk assessment and management, CFRAM, programme, which lies at the core of the assessment of flood risk and long-term planning of flood risk management measures throughout the country. When each of the flood risk management plans being produced under the CFRAM programme, currently at consultation stage, are finalised, specific flood risk management measures will be identified and prioritised and will form the basis for a long-term investment programme for flood risk management in Ireland. As many of these measures will be small scale and will fall within the financial threshold of the minor works scheme, each local authority will play its part in the implementation of the measures in the context of the scheme.

The Suir CFRAM plan, which covers these areas, will be placed on public consultation next week when members of the public and elected representatives will have an opportunity to make submissions. There are no measures proposed in the plan for the Mooncoin area but there are proposals for the Pilltown area to deal with flooding problems there.

The Government has committed to increasing the budget allocation for capital flood relief activities to €430 million over the period 2016-2021 and I am confident its strategy to manage flood risk will better prepare Ireland to manage the threat of flooding into the future.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

I call Deputy John Paul Phelan, who has two minutes.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I just need one minute to thank the Minister of State for being present. It is amazing the number of times in my time in both Houses that Ministers - I suppose, naturally - could not be present to answer Topical Issues, which they are now called. They used to be called Adjournment matters when the Acting Chairman was in his heyday, although his heyday still has some time to go.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is still his heyday.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

I say sincerely that this is very good news and I am sure there will be more contact between me, my office, the council and the OPW before these measures are carried out. The Kilkenny county song is "The Rose of Mooncoin", and there is a line in it about the banks of the Suir that flows down by Mooncoin. If and when these works are delivered-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It comes through Tipperary too.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

Go on, Mattie.

Deputy John Paul Phelan

-----we will look forward to welcoming the Minister of State to the banks of the Suir that flows down by Pilltown and Mooncoin sometime soon.

Deputy Seán Canney

I thank the Deputy for that. I will get somebody to sing "Galway Bay" because I do not have-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Tiobraid Árainn abú.

Deputy Seán Canney

-----the qualities to do that but I thank him for his kind words.

Motor Insurance Regulation

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I thank the Ceann Comhairle for accepting this Topical Issue, a vitally important one that affects every village, hamlet and home not only in Tipperary but in the rest of Ireland today. I question why it has taken the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission so long to initiate action on what has been an outstanding, urgent and clear case of market manipulation within the car and vehicle insurance sector.

I highlight the language that this authority - one of these quangos - has used in a statement in announcing the issuing of summonses, in particular its view that industry participants openly signalling upcoming increases may result in a degree of unspoken co-ordination. Did one ever hear such bunkum? We know that every young person, every pensioner and every family car owner is being screwed backwards by insurance companies and we get this timid language from this quango. I would like to know the cost of the quango and who is paying its insurance or if it is insurable because it is worthless, toothless and useless.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Ministers may laugh, but they know this because they are hearing it in their constituency clinics every week. There has been ample anecdotal evidence from every town and village in the past five years about premium increases. They have defied any logic and any reasonable expectations, and operate outside market conditions.

The political reaction by the Government to the issue has been extremely weak and inordinately slow. I hope the Minister of State and the other Ministers present will listen to that. The Government has completely failed to grasp the seriousness of this situation for thousands of motor vehicle users and only at the last moment, driven largely by public pressure has it woken up to the scale of the problem.

We have had beef cartels and bank cartels, all of which used their industry dominance and insider knowledge to maintain their massive and obscene profits. The bankers have wiped out the farmers and the whole country. Are we going to let the motor insurance industry rip us all off here as well?

Last year Allianz, Europe's biggest insurer, reported record operating profits of €10.8 billion. Aviva Ireland reported an increase of 32% in its operating profit to €92 million last year. What do they want - the blood of the people? Young people do the theory test, pay an instructor to get the right standard of driving, pass their test and then they are made criminals before they go on the road because they are penalised to the tune of €4,000 to €7,000. They can buy a car for €2,000 and the insurance is costing their parents up to four times that amount. It is a rotten, stinking cartel.

The Competition and Consumer Protection Commission recently investigated small bus companies in Tipperary suspected of operating a cartel. They might have the law down on top of them - dawn raids with all kinds of intimidation of the bus owners. I do not support any cartels, but this has to stop. I want to see the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission flex its muscle and not use this timid language that one would use when courting a girl up a boreen when we were all buachaillí óga agus cailíní óga fadó fadó.

(Interruptions).

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I cannot use here the language I want to use to describe what is going on. There is victimisation of young people, older people and also road hauliers. A number of road hauliers are now insuring abroad and registering abroad. There is a huge flow of jobs from Ireland where we have a recovering economy. This cartel of insurance companies is trying to racketeer and make even more profits on the back of ordinary families. I hope the Minister of State can give some assistance and hope to the families and businesses, especially small businesses, that cannot afford this. It is crippling businesses, families, students and everybody else.

Deputy Kevin Boxer Moran

We all have our mojo so.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I always had my mojo; I never lost it.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

Never mind about the mojo, let us have the reply.

Minister of State at the Department of Defence (Deputy Paul Kehoe)

I thank Deputy Mattie McGrath for raising this very important issue. I am glad he did not use that language because I would be very sensitive towards any language like that.

Introducing measures to address the rising cost of motor insurance is a high priority for Government. The working group on the cost of insurance, chaired by the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, is undertaking a review of the factors which are influencing the increased cost of motor insurance. The working group brings together all the relevant Departments and offices involved in the process. Its objective is to identify immediate and longer-term measures which can address increasing costs, while bearing in mind the need to maintain a stable insurance sector. The core areas to be examined by the working group in this first phase are: the motor insurance sector generally at present and in recent years; the effects of legal costs and litigation processes on insurance costs; the current claims compensation arrangements and the cost of claims; insurance data and information; the impact of accident rates; the impact of unlawful activity on the insurance sector; and other market issues.

A number of additional issues relating to motor insurance which impact upon consumers and the business sector are also being considered. These include the lack of a link between the national car test and the availability of insurance; insurance costs for young drivers and those over 65; the case for rural dwellers with no public transport to have car insurance at a reasonable cost; the issue of returning emigrants having difficulty obtaining car insurance; and the cost of insurance to taxi drivers, hackneys, hauliers and others involved in the transport business.

As the issue of the cost of insurance is complex and in order to get to the heart of these issues as soon as possible, the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, has established four sub-groups to review them in detail. Chairs have been appointed to these sub-groups and work has commenced. The sub-groups are meeting weekly and their outputs are feeding into the meetings of the main working group. The working group will be holding its fifth meeting this Thursday and will continue to meet every two to three weeks to the end of 2016.

A consultation process has commenced. The Minister of State has had informal meetings with representatives from a number of key stakeholders, including Insurance Ireland, AA Ireland, the Irish Brokers Association, the Injuries Board, IBEC, FBD Insurance and the Central Bank of Ireland. The working group and the four sub-groups are also meeting with the relevant stakeholders. At its third meeting, the working group met representatives from the Law Society, AA Ireland, the Irish Brokers Association and the Consumers' Association of Ireland. Further consultations will be arranged. In addition, submissions received from all interested parties are being considered as part of the process.

By the end of October, the working group will provide the Minister for Finance with an update report which will set out the priority actions required. From November to December, the working group will then develop an action plan to enable the relevant Departments and offices to commence the implementation of these priority actions. In this regard, the Minister of State will be consulting regularly with Government colleagues.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Someone over there would want to get their mojo.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Bernard J. Durkan)

No more mojo now.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

The Minister of State referred to working groups and consultation groups, but this has been going on for more than 18 months. I know that during the interregnum when the Government was being formed, it went off and took everyone for a fast ride around the country and the insurance companies. I read the figures and I will read them again. Last year Allianz, Europe's biggest insurer, reported record operating profits of €10.8 billion. Aviva Ireland reported an increase of 32% in its profits. It is no time for talking, it is time for action. The Government should deal with it. The Government is just tickling the Law Society by inviting its representatives in to talk to them. They have been robbing people for years. This is legalised robbery and is forcing people to drive uninsured. If they have accidents, ordinary motorists are paying the price.

My insurance went up by 50% this year and I will put up with that but there is even less cover for young drivers and everything else. I am talking about business insurance. Many jobs are being lost on a daily basis. Last year the road hauliers got a break with the motor tax. Now the insurance companies have decided to hijack them and double their insurance in some cases. Last week the president of the Irish Road Hauliers Association, Verona Murphy, whom I admire, asked why road hauliers are not allowed to access the European Single Market for insurance as commercial entities, noting that there is no competition in the Irish market. Do we need reports, consultations, sub-groups, committees and weekly meetings going on to the end of the year to find the answer? We all know what is going on. It is a cartel and a racket. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it is a duck. It is a racket and it is daylight robbery.

Ms Murphy added that about 43% of trucks in Ireland now have foreign-registered plates. That is telling. We are losing the tax and customs revenue. Some 30% of Irish operators are now based abroad. Are we going to allow this like the flight of the earls? We need to wake up and smell the coffee. The Government needs to call in the insurance companies and deal with them. There is no point in rubbing butter on a fat sow's backside, which is what is going on. It is pure plunder and rape of our business, our industry, our young people, our families and our economy, and it has to be stopped now. There is no point in having working groups, mojos, jojos and everything else. We need action. We are elected by the people to represent them to stop this racket and cartel. We put up with it with Larry Goodman and we put up with it with the banks. This is one we cannot put up with because it will drive our country into the abyss.

Deputy Paul Kehoe

I understand the Deputy's frustration. Many, if not all, Deputies across the House are frustrated with the rising cost of motor insurance. Not a day goes by without someone mentioning the rising cost of motor insurance to me and particularly people involved in the haulage business.

County Wexford is heavily reliant on the haulage business, as I am sure is the case in County Tipperary and in other parts of the country. As I outlined, addressing the rising cost of motor insurance is a Government priority. Work to identify the factors influencing the increasing costs is continuing apace via the cost of insurance working group. As Chairman of the working group, the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, is driving the process-----

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Will he be able to get insurance?

Deputy Paul Kehoe

-----and is working with all of the relevant stakeholders, Departments and offices to identify immediate and long-term measures that can address the rising cost of insurance. Consultation with the relevant stakeholders is ongoing. The working group looks forward to receiving the report of the Joint Oireachtas Committee on Finance, Public Expenditure and Reform and the Taoiseach on this matter. The working group will provide an update to the Minister for Finance at the end of the month, in which it will set out the priority actions required. The working group will then develop an action plan to enable the relevant Departments and offices to commence implementation of these priority actions by December.

Like Deputy Mattie McGrath, I have spoken to the president and other members of the Irish Road Haulage Association. I met recently with a number of hauliers who are being crippled by the rising cost of motor insurance. This is a matter of huge concern for them and young drivers. My car insurance increased this year from €350 to €950. That is unacceptable. Families are being crippled by the rising cost of motor insurance. Most young people now have cars and every household is reliant on a car.

I take on board all of the sentiments expressed by the Deputy and I will refer them directly to the Minister of State, Deputy Eoghan Murphy.

Medicinal Products Availability

Deputy Gino Kenny

I received a telephone call last Saturday from a gentleman in Cork in regard to his wife who suffers from lupus and has been in chronic pain for the past 20 years. The man's wife has been told by her neurologist that if she could access Sativex, which is an oral spray used typically by people who suffer from multiple sclerosis, it could help her condition. I understand that in July 2014 the use of Sativex was licensed in Ireland but that agreement on price has yet to be reached between the HSE and the manufacturers. There are many people who could benefit from treatment with this drug. When will a price on Sativex be agreed between the HSE and the manufacturer so this drug is accessible to people, particularly the wife of the man who contacted me and people suffering from multiple sclerosis?

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Finian McGrath)

I thank the Deputy for raising this important issue. Sativex is indicated for the relief of symptoms of spasticity for people with multiple sclerosis where other conservative treatments have failed to provide adequate benefits. Deputy Kenny will be aware that access to potentially beneficial drug treatments is an important issue for people with multiple sclerosis, MS, and also that MS sufferers and their families face enormous day-to-day challenges in dealing with this progressive and debilitating condition.

The HSE has statutory responsibility for decisions on pricing and reimbursement of medicinal products under the community drug schemes in accordance with the provisions of the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013. Decisions on which medicines are licensed for use in Ireland and which are reimbursed by the taxpayer are made on objective, scientific and economic grounds by the HSE on the advice of the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics, NCPE. The NCPE is a team of clinicians, pharmacists, pharmacologists and statisticians who evaluate the benefits and costs of medical technologies and provide advice to the HSE. The NCPE conducts health technology assessments of pharmaceutical products for the HSE and can make recommendations on reimbursement to assist the HSE in its decision-making process.

Since July of this year a revised and more transparent assessment process for the reimbursement of new medicines by the HSE has been in place. This process includes consideration of the budget impact of individual new medicines, the opportunity cost of the treatment and resources available to the HSE, as allocated by Dáil Éireann. The new assessment process is available on the Department of Health website.

In regard to the reimbursement of Sativex, on 11 July 2014, the Misuse of Drugs Regulations 1998 were amended to allow for certain cannabis-based medicinal products to be used in Ireland. The Health Products Regulatory Authority subsequently granted a marketing authorisation for the cannabis-based medicinal product Sativex to be marketed in this State. It was then open to the holder of that authorisation to make the product available for prescription in Ireland. In early September 2014, the HSE received an application for inclusion of Sativex under the community drugs scheme's high-tech arrangements. A health technology assessment on Sativex was completed by the NCPE, which did not recommend reimbursement of Sativex at the submitted price, which appears to be at the core of the Deputy's question. The report by the NCPE is an important input to assist the HSE in its decision-making process and informed further engagement between the HSE and the supplier in regard to potential pricing arrangements for this product. Sativex is not currently reimbursed. The HSE is awaiting further engagement from the supplier. It is appropriate that these should not be ministerial decisions and that a scientific and evidence-based approach be taken to determining the extent to which patients would benefit from treatment with expensive new drugs and whether this represents cost-effectiveness for the health service and the taxpayer.

Deputy Gino Kenny

I understand that the cost of making the drug available is estimated to be €4,000 to €5,000 per patient per annum. Is the Minister of State saying that the manufacturer is out-pricing the HSE or that the HSE does not believe it is getting value for money?

Deputy Finian McGrath

I share the sentiments expressed by the Deputy on this important issue. The manufacturers' estimate of the eligible population in Ireland that might be considered for treatment with Sativex if reimbursement was improved is approximately 830. The Deputy is correct that the cost is estimated to be €4,000 to €5,000 per patient per annum. Using the company's population data it is predicted that the gross budget impact in year one would be €396,901, rising to €797,041 in a five-year period. The actual number of people who might qualify if reimbursement was agreed by the HSE would depend on a range of factors, including any conditions that the HSE might attach in relation to approval, including, for example, approval arrangements to be complied with or clinical criteria to be met.

It is important to note that Sativex is licensed throughout the UK but not reimbursed by the NHS. The National Institute for Health and Care Excellence, NICE, has recommended that health practitioners do not offer Sativex to treat spasticity in people with MS because it is not a cost-effective treatment. This is the NICE's view. The assessment of the National Centre for Pharmacoeconomics, NCPE, of Sativex informed further engagements and negotiations between the HSE and the supplier. At this stage, the HSE is awaiting further engagement with the supplier. There is an issue with regard to the price structures and overpricing and this is the message I will bring back to the Minister, Deputy Harris, because we must all make a contribution on this. I will make the views of the Deputy known.