Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 8 Nov 2016

Vol. 927 No. 3

Public Sector Pay: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy David Cullinane

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

accepts that:

— the legacy of eight years of cuts to pay and public services continues to place enormous pressure on ordinary people and households;

— there is a two-tier recovery and the majority of households have yet to see any discernible difference in their everyday lives; and

— pay equality within the public sector remains an outstanding legacy issue of the crisis and bailout and needs to be tackled;

acknowledges that the Budget 2017 measures announced on 11 October, 2016 do not tackle pay inequality in the public sector in any substantial way nor do they tackle the two-tier recovery and its effect on the majority of households; and

calls on the Government to stop pay restoration due for Teachtaí Dála, Senators, Ministers of State, Ministers and the Taoiseach as part of the Lansdowne Road agreement.

I am proud of the fact that my party has tabled this motion for consideration by the House. I was hoping that the Government and the Fianna Fáil Party would accept the motion. I note that Ministers, Ministers of State and the Taoiseach have said they will not accept the pay increases, which is interesting and I welcome that fact. However, they do not seem to want to extend it to Members of this Dáil, which is a matter for the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform and the Fianna Fáil Party to explain.

This is an issue of fairness. The Minister may disagree, which he is entitled to do, but for me, this is a core issue of fairness. It is also an issue of leadership. I have listened to the Minister's utterances in the last number of weeks on public sector pay and on the reasonable demands that are being made by workers right across the public sector, be they gardaí, nurses or teachers. They are demanding that core issues are dealt with, most particularly the issue of equal work for equal pay but the Minister is not in a position to say that he will commit to that, implement and deliver it. He is preaching pay restraint to public sector workers earning less than €65,000 who are not getting any realistic levels of pay restoration. At the same time, he is presenting an agreement which prioritises pay restoration for those earning more than €65,000, including Teachtaí Dála.

Let us look at the figures. A Deputy is paid a salary of €87,258 per year. I believe that Deputies should be, and are, reasonably well paid. We earn a salary which is 2.5 times the average industrial wage. The situation is that on 1 April next - whatever genius civil servant came up with that date did not do irony - or on April Fool's Day, those earning more than €65,000, including Deputies, will get the first tranche of their pay restoration, followed by the second tranche on 1 January 2018. That means that Deputies will receive an increase of €5,400 or €100 per week. Average public sector workers, those who work on the front line like gardaí, nurses, teachers, those who clean the streets, who work in our local authorities and so forth, are on an average salary of €40,000 and will get €1,000 in pay restoration, equivalent to €20 per week. When one takes taxes into account, the amount is actually a lot less. Deputies and those earning more than €65,000 will get €100 per week. How can the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform sit there and say that is fair? The excuse used by the Minister to justify this is that Deputies' pay is linked to grades in the civil service and in that he is correct. However, so too is the pay of Ministers, Ministers of State and the Taoiseach. If the principle is so precious, how is it that the Government is able to break it for Ministers? The Government knows that it simply would not wash that Ministers and Ministers of State would take the proposed increases, which for Ministers would have been 10% and for the Taoiseach, up to 14%. The Government knew this would not wash and could not be justified and it was right about that. I welcome the fact that the Government acknowledges this and that Ministers are not taking the pay increase. However, Deputies seem to be special and can be treated differently but I do not believe that is justifiable or right.

The Minister cannot come into this House, as he has done in the past, and argue that we cannot do this because Deputies cannot set their own pay levels or break the parity between civil servants' pay and that of politicians when the Government is breaking that parity in the context of Ministers, and rightly so. That is a red herring and the Minister knows it. There is nothing stopping Deputies from collectively taking a decision in this House on this matter. This is a time when we have huge industrial unrest and genuine grievances among public sector workers whose demands are not being met by the Minister or the Government. Despite several attempts by Deputy Adams and others to get the Government to commit to the principle of equal work for equal pay, the Government says "No", turns its back and will not give such a commitment. It is telling those who came into the public sector in 2011, who are doing the same work for less pay, that it will not deal with them, that they will have to wait. There is no timeframe for when the Government will deal with this issue but when it comes to Deputies, there is certainty and pay restoration. How can the Minister justify pay restoration for those earning more than €65,000 but not for those earning less than that amount? That is what I mean by fairness and leadership.

The Government, in this year's budget, increased the minimum wage by 10 cent per hour. The lowest paid workers in this State were given a pay increase of 10 cent per hour but Deputies will get €100 per week. There are many people for whom an increase of €100 per week is unimaginable but for Deputies, it is a reality. The public cannot understand how that can be possible when we have the real problems that are pressing down on so many families in this State. Budget 2017 was known as the "fiver budget" - a fiver for those on welfare and a fiver for most people, including Deputies, who will also benefit from the tax cuts in the budget. However, there is an additional bonus for us in the form of pay restoration of €100 per week. It is simply not fair.

The Minister needs to commit to a new pay agreement and to realise that the Lansdowne Road agreement is dead in the water. He also needs to realise that it is simply not fair or sustainable to stumble on until September 2018 with his head in the sand, pretend that what is happening around him is not happening, hope all the noise will go away, that the reasonable demands from nurses, gardaí and teachers will go away and do deals here and there that will get him over a hump or through a week or two. It will not work. The Minister is facing real discontent if he does not face up to the real sores in the public service at the moment.

The Minister must put this in the context of our public services. The difference between my party and Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil is that we value public services. We want genuine, world class public services. We want to invest in our health service, to make sure that those who are working in it get the best possible support and are operating in hospitals that have sufficient bed capacity. We want schools that have proper buildings rather than prefabs. That is the vision we have. We want world class public services and we want decent pay and equality for public servants. This Government turns its face against that but when it comes to Deputies' pay, anything is possible. Pay restoration for Deputies is written in stone and cannot be undone but in reality, it can.

Sinn Féin Deputies have made it clear that we will not be taking this pay increase. I have listened to some of the responses from Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil Deputies on this issue and they get very defensive about it. I raised this issue with the Minister previously and he asked me what I do with my money. In asking such a question, the Minister is trying to conflate separate issues. Sinn Féin Deputies have never said that we do not draw down our full salaries from the State. I draw down my full salary of €87,258 and I use some of it to employ somebody in my constituency. That is what I do but that does not have an impact on the taxpayer. Accepting this pay increase of €5,400, however, would have an impact on the taxpayer. It would impose an increased cost on the Exchequer but worse than that - and this is what the Minister does not understand - it would demonstrate a very poor lack of judgment and leadership on my part. The Minister and his Government came into this House and presented a budget that gave €5 to the most vulnerable and to most working families but did not deal with the real issues and challenges in health, housing, child care and so on. The Government is telling public servants, who are doing a fantastic job on the front line, that they will have to wait. It preaches wage restraint and argues that pay equality cannot be achieved because the country cannot afford it. It seems we cannot afford any of these things but we can afford pay increases for Deputies.

That is as much a matter for Fianna Fáil as it is for Fine Gael. We have a chance here tonight and tomorrow when the vote is taken to say collectively in one voice, as Members of this Parliament, that we believe in fairness and are showing leadership and that at a time when reasonable demands are being made by those in the public sector earning less than €65,000 per year that are not being met by the Government, we do not believe we can accept these wages increases. It simply would not be fair. At a time when so many other things are happening, we have so many other demands and when the Minister says "No" and turns his face to them, it would be wrong and send out entirely the wrong message if this should happen. I appeal to Fine Gael, Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party, which says it is the party of working people, to support our motion.

Deputy Brian Stanley

I welcome the opportunity to speak on this motion. We have a clear choice before us tonight with the proposal from our party. We have a choice between giving leadership and good example, and putting more money in our pockets. Those of us who have a good salary should not demand more. Deputies have take-home pay of between €45,000 and €50,000 out of a salary of €87,000. That is enough for anybody and we should not be demanding €5,400 more. We should not jump the queue while low-paid public servants, many of whom depend on family income supplement, wait. The question for all 158 Deputies here is do we actually need it? I do not and I know that very few other people in the House can say honestly that we need another €5,000 in our pockets. Public servants on €35,000, €36,000 or €37,000 will get an increase of roughly €1,000 while we line up and take over €5,000. That is not fair. People on the minimum wage will receive an increase of 10 cent per hour in January. That is awful. What kind of message does that send out to the people passing on the street here? What kind of message does that send out to the public? I have heard young teachers and young public servants being lectured in recent weeks - lectured by us. They are being lectured by people in here who are prepared to have that kind of inequality.

Under a previous Fianna Fáil Government, the minimum wage for someone working 39 hours per week was cut but that has been restored. Ten cent per hour is an insult and the figure should be increased. Only those on middle and low incomes should get an increase. We need to reduce pay for top earners and increase it for those with the lowest incomes. The first in the queue should be clerical officers, manual workers in the public service and what are termed the lower grades. People on €22,000 or €23,000 per year should get the largest increase. Half of workers in this State earn less than €28,000 gross per annum. This translates into take-home pay of about €400 or less per week.

We need to create a society based on solidarity, not greed. What better place to start than in here? We should take the lead. There have a clear choice here tonight for Deputies. We either want to lead by example or operate by double standards. I appeal to people across the political divide to do the right thing. The money saved, which is a modest amount, could be used for homeless services. If you walk out through that gate here tonight, you will fall over people whose feet are hanging out of doorways - unfortunate people who are forced to sleep rough. Money should be put into services like that, not into our pockets. Let us not lecture gardaí, young teachers, young nurses and low-paid public service workers. Let us try to create some equality and start with it here.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I understand there are three people left to speak. I remind them that there are just over six minutes left.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Táim buíoch as an deis labhairt ar an rún seo. Gabhaim mo bhuíochas leis an Teachta Cullinane as ucht an rún a chur faoi bhráid na Dála ar son Teachtaí Shinn Féin. Tá sé do-chreidte nach bhfuil Teachtaí Fhine Gael agus Teachtaí Fhianna Fáil chun a gcuid tacaíocht a thabhairt don rún os ar gcomhair. Mar a dúirt cainteoirí eile, the proposed salary increase for Deputies will bring their salaries to over €92,600 over the next 18 months. Ministers are in line to do even better. They will get €4,000 per year over the next two and a half years, an extra €11,735 in total. Not to be outdone, the Taoiseach is in line to do even better. He will get almost €5,000 per year next year, the year after and the year after that bringing his salary or that of his successor up to €200,000. This is at a time when young people have been told by Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil that all they are worth is an extra €2.70 per week and pensioners, carers, citizens with disabilities and others in receipt of social welfare are told they are worth just €5 extra per week.

This is not acceptable or fair. Deputies earn a basic salary of €87,258. We are very well paid. It is a wage the majority of workers will never earn. All the time, Ministers are telling gardaí, nurses and teachers to stop legitimately asking when their pay will be restored. They are arguing to get their pay restored. The average public sector worker on €40,000 per year will get pay restoration of €1,000 and the Government expects such workers to roll over and accept this, while Deputies will be paid €92,000 per year. A stop can be put to this tonight if Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil step up to the plate and show an ounce of leadership. Sin an rud ceart agus an rud cothrom le déanamh. Iarraim ar achan Theachta tacú leis an rún.

Deputy Imelda Munster

The turnout this evening is something of a disappointment. Where are the Government and Fianna Fáil Deputies this evening? Are they hiding? Are they hiding in their offices, are they sitting at home with their feet up watching this or are they hiding in the Dáil bar laughing and joking about this? Why do they not have the courage of their convictions to come in here and stand up and say why they feel they have a right to reward themselves a pay rise of €5,400 on top of a salary of €87,000? Why are they not here to stand up and defend what it is that makes them so special above everybody else? We all know that Ireland is experiencing a two-tier recovery but this measure compounds the wealth divide even further. In last month's budget, we saw Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil slapping each other's backs congratulating each other on throwing pensioners €5. Sure it was the best you could do, lads. Public servants who earn under €60,000 will get a pay rise of €1,000 over the next two years. Meanwhile, Deputies feel entitled to pocket and pilfer €5,400 over two years on top of a salary of €87,000. I would tell those who are here and others who are absent to go back to their constituents - the workers who earn the minimum wage, the workers who are on zero-hours contracts, the newly qualified teachers, the nurses, the gardaí and the people who are hounding job centres day in and day out looking for work but who cannot get it - and tell them what it is that makes them feel so special and above everybody else that they deserve a salary of €92,000. Have they become so aloof and detached from any semblance of fairness and equality? Have they got to the stage that they actually think this is fair or just? New politics, my backside. It is the same old, same old.

In any other country, this type of greed would be seen as a scandal and rightly so. In Ireland, it is just more of the same. We have got used to the self-serving greed of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael. There is only one Fianna Fáil Member here out of 50. I ask him to do the right thing and try to show the people that Fianna Fáil is no longer up to its neck in self-serving greed and sleveen politics and to back this motion.

The issue we are discussing is whether Deputies should be paid a salary of €92,000 or to continue with the €87,000 salary we are currently being paid. I have two questions for any Fine Gael or Fianna Fáil Deputy who intends to vote in favour of this pay rise and a salary of €92,000. Is €87,000 not enough for them? What makes them think they need an extra €5,400? It would be interesting to hear Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Members stand up tonight and answer those questions. We all know the country is struggling. The recovery is happening, but very few are experiencing it. The vast majority of people in the State have seen no real benefit from recovery. It would be a welcome act of solidarity for this Oireachtas as a whole to decide-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has----

Deputy Imelda Munster

----- that we do not need this payment and support this motion.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has exceeded not only her own time, but also the time of her colleague, Deputy Nolan. I must now call the Minister. I note that Sinn Féin has a slot later and perhaps her colleague could be accommodated then.

Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Paschal Donohoe)

I move amendment No. 4:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

"acknowledges the substantial contribution that public servants have made towards the stabilisation of the public finances and the economic recovery;

recognises that pay restoration has to be balanced and affordable in the context of other Government expenditure commitments;

supports the full implementation of the Lansdowne Road Agreement, encompassing 280,000 public servants in 22 trade unions, as providing a fiscally sustainable pathway to pay restoration;

confirms that every Minister and Minister of State will waive the pay restoration due under the Lansdowne Road Agreement but reconfirms the importance of maintaining the link between the pay of TDs and the Civil Service grade of Principal Officer for both pay reduction and pay restoration measures; and

welcomes the establishment of the Public Service Pay Commission to provide a road map on the orderly and affordable unwinding of the Financial Emergency Measures in the Public Interest."

The Government amendment focuses on the importance of the full implementation of the Lansdowne Road agreement encompassing 280,000 public servants in 22 trade unions, as providing a fiscally sustainable pathway to pay restoration. The amendment also reconfirms the importance of maintaining the link between the pay of Deputies and the Civil Service grade of principal officer for both pay reduction and pay restoration measures. I listened, as I should, with interest to what the Sinn Féin speakers said. It became even more apparent to me as they went on that this is a motion that is simply nakedly populist.

Deputy David Cullinane

One could abolish the USC.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

It is nakedly populist in seeking to drive a further wedge between those who are privileged to represent and those they look to represent.

I agreed with one thing Deputy Munster said. At least she could acknowledge that a recovery is happening. I know this is very difficult for Sinn Féin to do.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister without interruption.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am used to them interrupting me. They do not like to hear a response to their attempted arguments. At least there was an acknowledgement that a recovery is happening. I acknowledge that recovery is incomplete. A recovering economy is not the same as a recovered economy or a recovered society. The difficulties and challenges that so many people face are very apparent to me as a Member of Dáil Éireann and somebody privileged to serve in this Government. Those scars and those wounds that need to be healed are not served by Sinn Féin attempting to drive a wedge between those that people in Dáil Éireann look to serve and those they look to represent.

I ask Deputy Adams in particular if he has listened to a single statement from any Minister recently regarding their declaration on ministerial pay. The Taoiseach, every Minister and every Minister of State have agreed to forfeit any element of pay restoration under the Lansdowne Road agreement.

Deputy David Cullinane

Is that not populist?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy-----

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I know that Deputy Adams would not want to acknowledge that in his contribution.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Minister give way?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Will the Minister give way?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I would be delighted to.

Deputy Gerry Adams

The proposition is very simple. If the Minister is straight and serious about the rhetoric in which he is engaging, why does the Government not support the motion?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I do not know how relevant-----

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

It is very rich of Deputy Adams to talk about rhetoric. I will ask him a question. The Government has shown its commitment to responding to the needs we know are there by saying that it is the right thing for Ministers to forfeit their salary restoration. The Government amendment states that it believes it is right for the pay of Deputies to be determined by what happens with the pay of principal officers.

Deputy David Cullinane

What is the Minister's pay linked to?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ciúnas, le do thoil.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

Again Sinn Féin Members want to put the questions and use the rhetoric, but when their arguments are challenged they do not have the tolerance or patience to allow other people to speak.

It is important that such a link be maintained because politicians should not set other politicians' pay.

Deputy David Cullinane

However, the Minister sets his own pay.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Ciúnas, le do thoil.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

This link between Deputies and principal officers has been maintained over the years, meaning that people in this House do not determine what they are paid. That is the right principle to ensure that other interests do not compete in allowing Deputies and Senators to determine their salaries. In response to a claim Deputy Cullinane made in his opening statement, if Deputy Adams feels so strongly about this, he should return his salary to the taxpayer and do what any officeholder has done. We have returned, as we should, our element of pay restoration back to the Exchequer because that is the right thing to do.

Deputy David Cullinane

And what we are doing.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I ask Deputy Adams and his party colleagues to do the same.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Minister give way again?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Through the Chair.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am addressing the Chair, a Leas-Cheann Comhairle. I ask Deputy Adams and his Sinn Féin colleagues to do the same.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Will the Minister give way again?

Deputy Martin Ferris

The Minister asked a question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Now listen-----

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am very happy to allow Deputy Adams in, but I know he would not extend such a courtesy to me.

Deputy Martin Ferris

The Minister asked a question.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I will allow Deputy Adams very briefly.

Deputy Gerry Adams

If the Minister knew all the things he thought he knew, he would be a wiser man than he is.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I am glad I let the Deputy in to share that pearl of wisdom with the House.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

If they want to have a bilateral, they can have it outside.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Let me respond to the Minister's question. Sinn Féin Deputies will not be taking this increase and will be signing it back over to the taxpayer. We believe in equal pay for equal work; the Minister does not-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy has responded.

Deputy Gerry Adams

-----and that is very clear.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Adams-----

Deputy Gerry Adams

He sets the salaries for teachers.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister, without interruption.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

That is not the question I asked.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Address them through me.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

What I said was that if Sinn Féin felt so strongly about this principle, its Members should return to the Exchequer all of the salary that they are not accruing to themselves. The reality is that the cost to the Exchequer for every Sinn Féin Deputy in this House is the same as for any other Deputy.

Deputy David Cullinane

We accept that.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy, please-----

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

That is the reality. If Sinn Féin Members feel so strongly in their views in this matter, they should do the right thing. If Deputy Adams has conceded the principle that it is right that Ministers should forfeit that element of salary restoration, then that element of salary restoration he is due as a Deputy should be returned to the Exchequer. Given that he has now conceded that principle on the floor, I ask Sinn Féin Members to extend the same principle to the rest of the salary they currently do not accrue. That is the right thing to do. If Sinn Féin Members feel so strongly about their principles, they should implement them in a way that they have asked us to do.

I wish to comment more broadly on some of the other matters facing the House and the Government this evening regarding many of the claims about the status of the Lansdowne Road agreement. I emphasise the Government's absolute support for the Lansdowne Road agreement and for all those unions that are inside the Lansdowne Road agreement. I acknowledged earlier, as did the Taoiseach in response to questions from Deputies earlier in the House, that the ruling from the Labour Court last Thursday night regarding the resolution of matters facing An Garda Síochána was made by an independent body that has served the State very well in dealing with industrial relations challenges the country faces. The Government, of course, accepts the recommendation it has made.

I also acknowledge that this recommendation will have consequences. On foot of that, yesterday I began engaging with the public services committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions, ICTU, which has made its views known. I met representatives from ICTU to reaffirm the Government's support for a collective agreement which is the Lansdowne Road agreement. More than ever, I wish to make it clear that the only way for the State to respond to the industrial relations challenges and the need for economic stability is in a collective and an overall manner. It is for this reason that the Government remains as committed as ever to the Lansdowne Road agreement and will be engaging with the parties to that agreement to ensure it is maintained. I do this in the context of the many risks and challenges we face from abroad and it is even more important that, in the context of Ireland's small and open economy, we have an ordered way in which we can plan our affairs. That is acknowledged in this motion.

I heard Sinn Féin speakers disparage a €5 increase in the different social welfare rates. This was the first increase in the rates since 2009 and it happened due to the change in our economy that Sinn Féin said would never happen. However, that change did happen. I acknowledge that a €5 contribution can make a difference to people but I also acknowledge that they need more and there are needs out there to which the Government and the Dáil-----

Deputy David Cullinane

What about €100?

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

-----must respond.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Minister's time is up.

Deputy Paschal Donohoe

I understand fully the nature of those needs. The way the Government and the Dáil can respond better to them is by having an agreement that respects those in our public services and those who depend on such services. We can also respond by maintaining that agreement. It is ill served by the rhetoric and inconsistency that we have heard from the Sinn Féin Party this evening.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank the Minister. There are 20 minutes in the Fianna Fáil slot and I understand Deputy Calleary will be sharing time with Deputy Eugene Murphy.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The reason Fianna Fáil will not be supporting the Sinn Féin motion is simple and relates to the link that was established in 2000 by the Buckley report, which conferred independence in respect of the setting of the wages of politicians in the State. This is an independence that is international and which is also done in the Northern Ireland Assembly. That link is important because it means that Deputies or Senators cannot, on a whim, give themselves an increase at a time of their own choosing. That link is utterly independent of the political process and political input. It means that we took cuts when cuts were taking place in the general public service. I acknowledge that the level of our wages is extremely significant but the people here work hard for that and they take the wage that is going. It is important to say that the salary being recovered will bring it back to a level of €92,000, the salary that was paid to Deputies in 2011, 2012 and 2013 when it was paid to many members of the current Sinn Féin Parliamentary Party. They took it. In fairness to Deputy Cullinane, what he does with the money is his own business. When one makes a virtue of not taking a salary and then takes it-----

Deputy David Cullinane

I never made a virtue out of it.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The Deputy does so.

Deputy David Cullinane

I never made a virtue of that.

Deputy Dara Calleary

Given that he takes the money, he must answer for what he does with it.

Deputy David Cullinane

I was asked to by the Minister.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The Lansdowne Road agreement, which was supported by Sinn Féin up until today, lays out a process for income recovery for a large number of public servants. That process started last year for those on lower pay. It would be ideal if it were done quicker. That is the space into which we are now moving but the notion that it can - or that we should - exclude specific parts of the public service from it just for political purposes is wrong and fundamentally undermines the agreement.

Deputy David Cullinane

What about Ministers and Ministers of State?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Cullinane had his opportunity to speak.

Deputy Dara Calleary

What Ministers wish to do is their matter.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Cullinane had his opportunity and cannot continue like this.

Deputy Dara Calleary

What Deputy Cullinane wishes to do is his matter. I do not agree with, and I do not engage much in, the over-the-top criticism that is often presented in this House in respect of Sinn Féin. However, in the context of Sinn Féin undergoing its own internal pay review, it is ironic that this has not even been mentioned. Sinn Féin uses terms such as "double standards", "leadership", "fairness" and "sleveen politics", but those in the party come in here and protest that they are not taking an increase while they are actually giving themselves an internal increase. That, Deputy Munster, is sleveen politics of the highest order.

Deputy Imelda Munster

At no extra cost to the taxpayer.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy David Cullinane

If the Deputy would listen, he would know-----

Deputy Dara Calleary

Those in Sinn Féin ignored that and did not mention it in their public discussion. Deputy Munster may seek to do it at an appropriate time during her contribution.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Deputy Calleary is way off topic.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputies, please.

Deputy Dara Calleary

This is an opportune moment to comment on the overall situation regarding the Lansdowne Road agreement, especially in the context of the events of recent days. The Minister agreed to the establishment of the public service pay commission in the confidence-and-supply agreement signed last May. During the summer, however, a number of issues relating to the Garda and the teaching profession were placed on the long finger and this has resulted in a major breach of trust between a large number of the public service unions and the Government. Many of those issues were non-pay related and had no impact on the matters we debate this evening. For example, the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality guaranteed access to the Workplace Relations Commission and the Labour Court for the Garda in early summer but did not proceed with this. That forced the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors to reverse its decision to support the Lansdowne Road agreement. The Government has failed to come to the table with proposals on junior certificate reform that the ASTI could implement and accept. Now the Government has made an issue of the Croke Park hours, has forced ASTI into justifying its position on these and has forced its members out onto the streets.

Meanwhile, the agreement itself has shown delivery with regard to allowances and a pathway for the lower paid teachers. The Government, however, does not wish to reflect the spirit of the agreement in committing itself to equality of pay. All of that has combined to create the perfect storm which we are facing this evening and which has utterly undermined the Lansdowne Road agreement. The Minister and his colleagues must take responsibility for where matters stand, particularly in the context of how the public service and public service pay issues have been mishandled since last May. What we now need to see is a pathway to how the Government is going to manage this. It cannot be the make-it-up as you go along approach that has been presented to us since last Friday morning. We need an actual pathway with a number of initiatives that will rebuild the trust that has been broken. That rebuilding must be done in a cohesive and coherent fashion. In turn, this would allow the unions to engage with the Government and represent their members' interests in a cohesive manner that would take account of the challenges the State is facing - such as those relating to Brexit - and what it may face tomorrow in the aftermath of the US election results this evening. The Government rapidly needs to restore confidence in its ability to manage the situation or that confidence will disappear.

When the issue of politicians' pay was dealt with by politicians - and the Leas Ceann Comhairle was in the House at that time - it did not serve politicians or public life well. It is better dealt with in the absence of politicians' involvement. It is better dealt with by people who are not part of the bubble that is Leinster House, namely, those who look on coldly and observe. In the past, these individuals recommended cuts. If they recommend such cuts again, we will accept them. As long as those to whom I refer are independent and not subject to political interference, we will always support their decisions.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I shall carry on where my colleague Deputy Calleary left off by stating that the key in respect of this issue is independence. We have to keep the decision independent. When it was in the hands of politicians, the general public had a totally different perception of it. That is why we must keep it totally and utterly independent. I had not planned on speaking in this debate. Having been in the House since 4 p.m., I thought I had done enough speaking. As I sat in my office preparing for tomorrow's work, however, I heard the spin. Those who engaged in that spin are not here. Some are sitting at home with their feet up or are in the Dáil bar laughing at us.

Deputy Pat Buckley

They are.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

They are afraid to come into the House. I do not play people, I play the politics.

Deputy Imelda Munster

And the Deputy-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I am here and I am debating the issue. I want to keep the decision on politicians' pay independent. It is good for politics, for credibility and for the Dáil that said decision is made on an independent basis. I did not set my salary; my salary was set for me. I did not look for a pay increase-----

Deputy Imelda Munster

Through the Chair-----

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I did not seek a pay increase and I did not look for this issue to be debated in the House this evening. However, what has been put before us must be acknowledged. We have to keep the decision independent because if we do not do so, responsibility for making it will be returned to politicians.

Who knows where it would go, up, down or wherever? It was left in the hands of the politicians for long enough. When it was introduced in 2001 it was welcomed by all sides. I find it remarkable that when the FEMPI report was discussed here in 2015 it was backed by the party which has tabled the motion this evening. Is this what we call underspend, talking out of the two sides of their mouths? I hope not, but it clearly is that way.

It is disingenuous to think that people are sitting at home with their feet up when we know for a fact Members are in their offices working or have just left committee rooms, having sat there from between 4 p.m. and 8 p.m. We know that debates and conversations are taking place about Calais in offices here tonight. It is very disingenuous to send out the message that we are afraid to discuss our salaries. This is not the case. What we want is to keep it the way it is presented and keep it entirely and utterly independent. What people do with their wages when they receive them is their choice. It is not the choice of anybody else. I will not support the motion before us this evening. We must keep it independent.

Deputy Eugene Murphy

I will take a few minutes to be involved in the discussion. I do not have a difficulty with being here and discussing this, because there is nothing to hide. I was thinking about the time when politicians had control over voting their own pay rises. I did some research on this and I could not see any time when they had control themselves until the year 2000 when they actually decided to take a reduction in wages. This reduction has happened and now we have the restoration of this pay.

I also have a serious difficulty with politicians, from every party or independent - I am not referring just to Sinn Féin - who go around telling the public and the media they will not take this rise, when some of them have two or three businesses with far greater sources of income. This proposal is very rich coming from individuals who do this. I am a new Deputy and I do not hold any of my old jobs. I was partly involved in a business and another job but that is no longer the case. I rely totally on the good salary from this job and the expenses.

I will tell the House about a Deputy in a rural constituency. I have opened my third office and my expenses will not cover the cost of it. To give my constituents a proper service I must delve into my salary to cover the cost of the third office. When we open our first office every Deputy is generously helped out and that is fair enough. I am in the rural constituency of Roscommon-Galway, which is more than 100 miles long, and I have opened my third constituency office. I have one in my home town of Strokestown, I have one in Roscommon town and, as Deputy Anne Rabbitte knows, I have opened one in Ballinasloe. There is a huge cost factor in doing this and many Deputies are aware of this. I do not know how Sinn Féin does its calculations, it is entitled to do whatever it does, but I am sure Sinn Féin pays for the rent of its office through another way and it comes out of Dáil salary expenses. It might be done differently, or different from the way other Deputies in the House do it, but it is the same thing.

We must pay for rent and conferences. I organised a blood conference and I had to pay for all of it. I could not cover it with my expenses; I had to use some of my wages to cover it. I have no problem with this. The constituents of Roscommon-Galway elected me and I will spend the money to give them the service they deserve. My staff and I will ensure our offices are open five days a week and sometimes at weekends. There is much expense involved in this. Like many other Deputies and councillors - we do not talk about it - we give generous amounts of money to voluntary groups and charities. That is never mentioned. I make these points not in a whingeing way and not giving out because we must do it. I am glad I have the salary and the expenses to do it. It is very important this point is made here this evening.

With regard to public sector pay, I am glad there is some light at the end of the tunnel in the Garda dispute, but in the Chamber this evening I urge that the ASTI think of the students. I know many of them are very annoyed and hurt at how the Government has handled this issue. The Minister, Deputy Bruton, has not handled it well, if we are to be honest. I urge the teachers for the sake of the students to try to get back into the classrooms, particularly for those gearing up for exams who must start work on them. We urge the ASTI to go back into the classrooms and to suspend this. We can all see where they are coming from and recognise some of the difficulties but we all acknowledge that the only show in town at present is the Lansdowne Road agreement. Perhaps through this there can be some give or take, or perhaps even a strong statement from the Minister at this stage. I know that Ed Byrne, the president of the ASTI, said a number of weeks ago that if the Minister indicated certain things in a public statement it might progress this issue. I urge all sides to bring this to a conclusion as quickly as possible.

Deputy Brendan Ryan

It is open to every party to use its Private Member's time in whatever way it wishes, but it is disappointing that Sinn Féin is seeking to politicise Deputies' pay and the implementation of the Lansdowne Road agreement itself. The same Deputies take every cent of pay, expenses and allowances available to fund their political activity. Sinn Féin elected representatives take pay, expenses and allowances from four different parliaments, namely, the Oireachtas, Stormont, Westminster, where they do not turn up for work, and the European Parliament.

More than a decade ago the review body on higher remuneration in the public sector recommended that the salary of a Deputy be linked to the maximum point on the principal officer's scale. This removed Deputies' pay from the remit of votes in the Dáil where Deputies were expected to vote for or against pay increases for themselves. This practice was rightly found to be unacceptable and was rightly changed. Deputies' pay should never be decided by votes in the House but rather by an independent process.

The report of the review body on higher remuneration in the public sector, which benchmarked the duties and responsibilities of a Deputy to that of a principal officer in the Civil Service was very reasonable and balanced. Under FEMPI legislation and the Haddington Road agreement, Deputies' pay was rightly cut during the financial crisis. From a peak of more than €100,000 per annum, Deputies' pay was reduced by €13,000. The salary is now subject to the 4% class K PRSI contribution and the pension levy where it previously was not.

The allowances paid to Deputies were also rightly reduced and are now much more transparent. I am not denying it is still a well-paid job, but this type of populist motion about politicians' pay will not resolve the industrial relations disputes under way in the State. The Labour Party has called for the Government to open discussions on a successor to the Lansdowne Road agreement. We have also called for the re-establishment of an employer-labour conference to act to ensure disputes between employers and trade unions do not become a full-blown crisis.

The House would be much better served debating practical solutions to the issues of the day which we now face in industrial relations rather than wasting time on symbolic gestures such as this motion. The Labour Party continues to support the principle that politicians should no longer decide their own pay and that it should continue to be linked to the salary of a principal officer in the Civil Service. Is there truly an argument for principal officers in the Civil Service not to have pay restoration under the Lansdowne Road agreement? If not, and I have not heard one, I do not see the argument or logic for Deputies doing so.

We considered not contributing to this time waster of a motion this evening so this is as much as we are willing to contribute on the debate. We have made our point clear and that is the reality of it.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

As far as we are concerned, Deputies are paid too much. We believe the pay of public representatives should be linked to that of those they represent. In this way, public representatives would have an incentive to improve the lot of the majority. Part of the disconnect between politics and the majority of people is in the fact that the material circumstances of public representatives, in our case Deputies and Ministers, are on a different planet from those of the majority of those whom they represent.

Against that background, it is a no-brainer for us to state that it is unacceptable for Deputies to receive a €5,000 increase when somebody on the minimum wage gets an extra 10 cent an hour. Some 23% of workers in this country are officially low paid, a figure that has dramatically increased in recent years, and people on social welfare and pensioners got a miserable €5 extra per week, while a young jobseeker got even less at half of that - an utterly miserable increase. Secondary schools across the country are closed and may be closed for quite a long period if this Government does not relent, instead of refusing to pay the €6 per week extra per teacher that was promised to them under the Haddington Road agreement. The Government reneged on a promise, not the teachers - as suggested by the Taoiseach earlier today. The teachers stuck to the agreement and wanted to be paid €6 per week per teacher, some €300 per year, but it has been decided that we cannot pay that. We are willing to allow the schools of the country to close and to lock teachers and students out but it is okay for Deputies to get an extra €5,000 to take them up to the extremely well-paid salary of €92,000. That is unacceptable but the Government, and the political establishment of Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Labour Party, do not understand how unjust it is.

I heard somebody say that Deputies worked hard and that is true but so do people who work in Tesco. So do nurses and many of them, I suspect, work a lot harder than Deputies. So do teachers and so do firemen. So do the ushers in this House, who will leave here an hour or two after we leave and who also do not have equal pay for equal work. It is not just the teachers and nurses who do not get equal pay. A teacher who joined after 2012 gets approximately €6,000 less for doing the same job than somebody who was already employed. We are going to give ourselves a €5,000 increase but we cannot give it to low-paid nurses or teachers or the ushers here who will leave an hour or two after we have all gone. Their family lives are often wrecked by the ever-changing hours in this House but it is okay to do that to them and to teachers, nurses and other public servants. I do not think that is acceptable. It is important to give them a shout out because they make this place function as public servants, like teachers and nurses make the State function.

If the Government forces this through we will publish where we are giving the extra money to. If it is next week, we will give it to the ASTI strike fund; if it is next year and the nurses are on strike, we will give it to them and we will publish other good causes where we will put our money.

Deputy Mick Barry

An English billionaire once insulted half of the world's working population when he said, "If you pay peanuts you will get monkeys." Of course, the extremely generous wages paid to Deputies have never been a guarantee against monkey business in this House but it has guaranteed a Dáil that is out of touch with the lived experience of ordinary people. How many Deputies will get through Christmas only with the help of St. Vincent de Paul? How many had to count the pennies this year just to scrape a holiday? How many simply cannot afford private health care?

On over €87,000, Deputies are a privileged lot. Workers who perform vital work and without whom society could not properly function such as nurses, bus drivers and others, are paid only a fraction of the wage of a Deputy. Many young teachers, trusted to educate the next generation, are paid less than their workplace colleagues and, needless to say, no such sanction applies to new Deputies. The worker on the minimum wage receives four and a half times less pay than a Deputy and the person on social welfare receives nine times less. The Government, Fianna Fáil and the Labour Party, however, defend not just the status quo but a big wage increase, which is more than 12 times the wage increase of the minimum wage worker, ten times that of the person on social welfare and significantly more than workers in the categories I mentioned, without whom society could not properly function. It is wrong and we will support the motion this evening.

We are also tabling an amendment to insert the words, "...further acknowledges that elected representatives who truly wish to represent the interests of working class people should live on no more than the average industrial wage;..." after the words "...effect on the majority of households; and...". This amendment is not so much for the benefit of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael Deputies, who represent the interests of big business, big farmers and the wealthy in society who have no interest in living on the average industrial wage. It is inserted precisely for those Deputies whose aim is to truly represent working-class people. Those Deputies must be able not just to talk the talk but to walk the walk - to walk in the shoes of the working people they seek to represent. That is why Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit Deputies live on no more than the average industrial wage. We are workers' Deputies on workers' wages. Even if this motion is defeated and the wage increases go ahead, our Deputies will not personally benefit by even one penny. Rather than hand the money back to Deputy Michael Noonan to pay bondholders and to provide tax breaks for landlords and big builders, we will donate every penny to campaigns aimed at improving life for ordinary working people. We will donate to community campaigns such as the anti-water charge movement, to progressive campaigns such as the repeal movement and to strike funds for working people.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy Catherine Connolly of Independents 4 Change has eight minutes.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Níl a fhios agam an mbeidh aon duine eile ag labhairt. Cheap mé go raibh ceithre nóiméad agam.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Má thagann aon duine, déanfaimid socrú.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Since I have been elected as a Deputy I have found myself on occasion supporting motions tabled by Sinn Féin and the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit. On this occasion, however, I do not support them as I think this is the lowest type of politics. As I sat in my office preparing for tomorrow and waiting for my turn tonight, I found myself listening in agreement to some of the comments made by Deputy Anne Rabbitte. I have spent an incredible amount of time in this Chamber since I was elected, partly because I am a new Deputy and partly because I have been watching and listening, but I find this level of politics, of split and divide, despicable. I will support Sinn Féin and the groups on the Left on other motions but not on this one. I was absolutely disgusted two weeks ago when Sinn Féin and the Anti-Austerity Alliance-People Before Profit supported Deputy Micheál Martin when he decided that we should not take last week off. If one really thought about the staff in this Chamber and in the building, this was a golden opportunity for Sinn Féin and the AAA-PBP to show some bottle and stand up for them. They could have stood by what the Business Committee had agreed and brought back some honesty into politics rather than playing to the lowest common denominator in which politicians are lazy and have continuous holidays.

Like most Deputies my day started today a little later than usual at 8 a.m. It is now 9 p.m. and I will continue to work until 11 p.m. I make no apologies for that and I do not seek any sympathy in that regard. I made a choice to change career and to seek election to the Dáil to represent people. It is disingenuous, if not dishonest, to say that I cannot represent working class people, middle class people and upper class people if I do not have a working wage of the type referred to by Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett. I think that is an insult and I do not think people want that type of politics. We are here to do a job. We promised a new type of politics and to stand up and be counted. I receive a salary for which I make no apology. I can adopt the high moral ground, although I do not wish to do so, because as I made known prior to the tabling of this Sinn Féin motion, I will not be taking the increase. One is not here to adopt the high moral ground; one is here to hold the system to account for a fairer country. We should be working to provide employment, housing and health services for all of our citizens. From the day I was elected to this House and until the day I leave, that is the voice I have been and will be in this Chamber.

I believe there are solutions. I also believe that this discussion tonight is beyond contempt. I rarely use such strong language, except in regard to the Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil parties. On this occasion, I find myself in agreement with them that the salary is what it is. Those who do not want it do not have to take it. The Sinn Féin, Anti-Austerity Alliance and People Before Profit Deputies take the full salary and they use it as they see fit. Instead of coming in here and taking the high moral ground, they should give it back.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Hear, hear.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

Also, the type of language being used in this Chamber is unacceptable. I would have preferred if this time had been used to discuss the hospitals trolley crisis. There were 45 people on trolleys in Galway today. We have a housing crisis and only 14 houses being built this year in Galway. I do not attempt to be parochial because this is what is happening all over the country. Turning people against politicians and saying we earn too much is simply a sideshow, a distraction and an attempt to divide and conquer people. The public is not that foolish. Everybody in this country deserves a decent wage and a decent living. It is the role of us on this side of the House to hold the system to account.

I despise this type of politics. It is utterly divisive for the sake of populism.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The next slot is being shared by Deputies Mattie McGrath, Michael Collins and Michael Harty.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I welcome the opportunity to speak to this motion. I could not agree more with Deputy Catherine Connolly that this motion is nothing more than a populist stunt. The work of the Business Committee was hijacked a couple of weeks ago by Deputy Micheál Martin but the Sinn Féin representative on that committee had also agreed the business for that week and then voted against it. That is populism at its best. During my contribution on the budget I declared that I would not be taking the €5,000 per annum increase for myself and that I intended to give it to charitable organisations in my constituency.

As I said, this motion is nothing short of naked populism. Sinn Féin Deputies may not be taking the money for themselves but they are putting it into their campaigns, as are the Anti-Austerity Alliance and all the other hard left Deputies, many of whom are so hard now they do not know what they feel. They talk about the poor and people who have nothing. We all witnessed the near riot they caused during the water protests with no regard to the costs in that regard to the Garda Síochána. Despite all their talk last week about supporting the Garda Síochána, many of them and their supporters were outside this House spitting at the Garda.

What we need is a modicum of fair play. We cannot have salaries set by Deputies. They were set by us for long enough. That was a charade and it was not right or acceptable. Now Deputies' salaries are linked to the infamous Lansdowne Road agreement and the principal officer grade. Many Deputies might be willing to give up the proposed salary increase but what about the principal officers? There are only 158 of us but there are many hundreds of principal officers and other higher officers. In an interview this morning with Sean O'Rourke, his lordship, Jack O'Connor, huffed and puffed and refused to answer any of the questions he was asked while proclaiming the Lansdowne Road agreement to be better than the kingdom come. We are told now that even though this salary increase is provided under the Lansdowne Road agreement, we should not take it. This is populism. Sinn Féin members take their salaries from the European Parliament, the Stormont Assembly and from the British Parliament, which its members do not even attend, and they put it into their campaigns.

I know of a Deputy who five years ago tried to rent an office in Deputy Cullinane's constituency in Waterford. He could not afford it but four days later it was rented by Sinn Féin. Do they expect us to believe they are paying the high rents in constituencies like Dungarvan, Tramore and so on out of their so-called industrial wage? They are not. I heard Deputy Eugene Murphy of Fianna Fáil say earlier that he had opened three offices. More power to him. Our job is to serve the public. We are Teachtaí Dála elected by the people and we should never forget it. We are not naked populists that want to jump on every bandwagon and have every type of issue hijacked and banjaxed and so on. That is the reason Sinn Féin did not make the strides in the election it expected to make. The electorate is clever enough to know that they need to elect people who will represent them. I am not speaking in this regard only about farmers. I represent every person in my constituency to the best of my ability and I will continue to do so for as long as they elect me, whether they are unemployed or working people. I will not engage in the type of populism or charade in which Sinn Féin is engaged. Its members are accepting their salaries and investing them in campaigns to repeal the eighth amendment and to have water charges abolished. Sinn Féin is anti-everything. It is not pro-anything.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

It is pro-choice.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is anti-everything and for that reason it will remain stuck where it is. Sinn Féin has a cheek to come in here and lecture us about what we do or do not do, which is nothing but naked hypocrisy. One of its members claimed expenses in respect of attendance at the European Parliament despite never having attended it. I am speaking not of a current member or even the previous one but the one before that who would go to Europe on a Monday morning and come back here on Tuesday to do press conferences. That is the type of populism in which Sinn Féin engages. They are fast learners.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

On a point of order, Deputy Mattie McGrath is perfectly entitled to his views on us but he should withdraw the remark about us spitting at gardaí.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I saw it myself outside the gate.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What did the Deputy see?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is Deputy McGrath willing to withdraw the remark?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

No, because I saw it happen outside the gates of this House.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

What did the Deputy see?

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I saw anti-water protesters outside the gate of this House spitting at gardaí.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

That is disgraceful.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I was there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have no control.

Deputy Mick Barry

Will the Leas-Cheann Comhairle again ask Deputy McGrath to withdraw that remark?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No. I have already asked him once to do so.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Bhí mé ann an oíche sin.

Deputy Mick Barry

Will the Leas-Cheann Comhairle ask the Deputy to withdraw that remark?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

No, I cannot control that. I have asked once.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

Shame on Deputy Mattie McGrath.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will have an opportunity to withdraw it before the end of the debate, if he so wishes.

Deputy Michael Collins

I commend Sinn Féin on bringing forth this motion, which I fully support. For Deputies to take a pay rise at this time is totally wrong and unacceptable. It is totally unjust that those on social welfare payments will be getting an extra €260 per annum while Deputies will get a €2,700 increase this year and next year. If, following the vote this Thursday, this motion is not passed, I propose to set up a trust fund and to give the money to community and voluntary organisations in west Cork. I call on other like-minded Deputies to do the same. The money allocated for the pay rise amounts to more than €1 million over the two years. I propose that this money be ring-fenced for health services, specifically home help packages and services. As we know, many elderly people are being refused home help hours and home care packages despite the promises made by the Government. How can we justify increasing our pay when the Government has not made good on these promises? Let us stick to our promise and allocate this money to home help services and home care packages and thereby take care of some of the most vulnerable in society. This money would be an enormous boost to elder care provision and would go a long way towards helping the elderly to remain in their homes for as long as possible.

While €2,700 per annum will not make a huge difference to the standard of living of Deputies and Senators, €1 million over two years will make an enormous difference to the most vulnerable in society. I urge all Deputies to support this motion.

Deputy Michael Harty

I believe that the partial restoration of the salary reduction which is to be applied to Deputies' and Senators' salaries should be deferred until all other groups have had their salaries reinstated to pre-financial emergency measures in the public interest, FEMPI, rates. It is unacceptable that Deputies and Senators should get a partial unwinding of FEMPI pay reductions through the Lansdowne Road agreement while other groups have to threaten industrial action, take to the streets in protest and have recourse to the Labour Court or the Workplace Relations Commission to get some restoration of their pay. By all means allow higher civil servants or principal officers have some restoration of their FEMPI cuts if that is what is provided for in the Lansdowne Road agreement.

However, as legislators who introduced the FEMPI legislation in the first place, we should be the last to avail of pay restoration, not among the first, if for no other reason than to give a lead in pay restoration restraint and to show an understanding of the pain which FEMPI inflicted on our society. We must show true leadership. Teachers, nurses and gardaí have had their entry level pay reduced by 20% while their senior colleagues have had FEMPI applied to them in a draconian manner. These and other groups are having to fight hard and protest to ensure partial restoration of their pay scales, yet they have no clear pathway to full restoration of pay.

Many other workers and professions have suffered severely from the application of FEMPI legislation. General practice has seen a severe and devastating application of FEMPI, not just to net income but to gross turnover. Having a 38% reduction applied to gross fees has rendered many general practices unsustainable. GPs have had to abandon their practices, emigrate, retire early or simply become insolvent. As a profession, general practice has been so undermined by FEMPI that it is difficult to see how it can recover to begin to take on the responsibility and necessity to be the bedrock of our health service. All evidence presented to the Committee on the Future of Healthcare advises that general practice-led primary care is the most apt and efficient place to provide care for chronic illness and to look after our ageing population in local communities, thus avoiding the trolley queues that are now a regular feature of our health service. However, there is no pathway for pay restoration under FEMPI legislation for independent contractors, be they GPs, dentists, pharmacists or others who supply services to the Government. Outlining a pathway for the unwinding of FEMPI for self-employed contractors should be a priority for the Government. Therefore, this unwinding of FEMPI for Deputies and Senators should be deferred until all other sectors of society have had their pay restored.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I thank Deputy Harty for observing the time. We move to the Social Democrats-Green Party slot. Deputy Shortall is sharing her time with Deputies Seamus Healy and Eamon Ryan.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

The Social Democrats support the motion because we believe in the principle behind it. Much has been made by speakers tonight about the independence of the process to determine Members' pay. I support that process fully and we should stick with it. There were many years when that was not the case and the change is an important and welcome development. That does not mean Members cannot take decisions in their own right or as parties in respect of whether now is the right time for Deputies to accept restoration of pay. I argue strongly that this is not the right time given the problems the country faces. Many people remain in dire straits and many are working desperately to keep their heads above water. There are 500,000 people on hospital waiting lists. One in nine children lives in poverty and 2,000 children are homeless and living in emergency accommodation. Many public sector workers are on pay that is so low they qualify for family income supplement.

Clearly, this is not the right time for Deputies to restore their own pay or to accept such a restoration. One of the biggest issues facing the country is the demand for wage increases, in particular in the public service. Members of the House and members of Government, in particular, can have no moral authority in talking about the need for pay restraint if we are unprepared to practise it ourselves. This is not the right time for Deputies to accept pay restoration. We must lead by example if we are to have any credibility in this area at all. On the question of independence, of course, Deputies' allowances were supposed to be addressed through an independent mechanism. That was the recommendation in 2010, but the Government, regrettably, has not accepted it.

The tone of some of the contributions tonight was regrettable. It is in no one's interest for Members of the House to show disrespect to other Members and belittle the role of Deputies. We work damn hard and should be respected for it, but that does not necessarily mean we must accept a recommendation to take pay restoration. That tone was regrettable. The Social Democrats have proposed an amendment to the motion. We propose that instead of the Government deciding it, the Dáil should. It is not up to the Government. Deputy Catherine Murphy and I will not accept the restoration of pay on this occasion and will be gifting it to the State. I urge other Members who are talking about not taking it to do likewise and not to use this sum of money as a personal slush fund to enhance their standing in their constituencies, however that is done. That is not what we are talking about here. It is about showing leadership by example. That means gifting the money back to the State.

Deputy Seamus Healy

I support the motion. There is no proposal in the motion which would allow Deputies to set their own salaries. What is being requested is that Deputies voluntarily agree not to accept these huge increases. The motion refers to a two-tier recovery but things are worse than that. The Government is supporting the rich and powerful in our society while low and middle income and poor families are being mugged daily. There is a housing crisis and people are on hospital trolleys and waiting lists. They are finding it almost impossible to make ends meet. The 2016 budget gave €120 million to the richest 5% in the country while the 2017 budget gives them another €52 million. At the same time, Social Justice Ireland has said the budget for 2017 disproportionately favours the wealthiest in our society. Even after the budget and the €5 per week increase, the basic social welfare rate is €17 per week below the line at which a person is at risk of poverty. Of our people, 750,000 live in poverty while one in every five children lives in a household which lives below the poverty line. Some 20% of children are in poverty. These are shocking statistics. Those on the minimum wage get 10 cent and our pensioners get €5. It beggars belief that the political elite in the Dáil should think they are worth an additional €100 per week. Deputies should lead by example. I have certainly advised the Oireachtas authorities that I will not accept this increase.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

The Green Party believes it is right to take politics out of the pay of Deputies and Senators and to manage it within the Lansdowne Road agreement or whatever successor agreement should follow it. We are not civil servants, but we are public servants and we would do our jobs better if we managed our pay as part of a collective agreement around pay involving other public service unions. That is in support of the Lansdowne Road agreement which is in need of support at this time of real challenge to how we manage our budget and allocate resources. It is interesting that we have seen the different arguments about it and that gardaí have effectively joined it.

This morning, I attended the ASTI picket line to talk to teachers about their resolution to the crisis. It is what my colleague Deputy Catherine Martin has been saying for some time. The key issue to resolve is equal pay for equal work. New entrants, younger teachers and nurses and other public servants need to have their starting pay rates restored to the levels their older colleagues started on. That is the key development we seek. It is for that reason that we would amend the Sinn Féin motion to say that the implementation of the Lansdowne Road agreement in relation to Deputies' pay should be contingent on agreement from the Government on how we get to that basic right of equal pay for equal work.

I listened intently to the Taoiseach today and he did not answer the question on the teachers' strike and give a clear commitment that we will restore pay. That might not happen through the Lansdowne Road agreement; there may have to be a successor agreement. There should be a clear commitment from the House that we would have basic pay restoration. That is fair and it is right to make our own pay arrangements contingent on a wider agreement with the public service, Civil Service and public servants on their pay arrangements. That is the approach we would prefer.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

I wish to share time with Deputies Martin Kenny, Kathleen Funchion and Pat Buckley.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Is that agreed? Agreed.

Deputy Eoin Ó Broin

A starting salary of €87,000 a year puts Deputies in the top 5% of earners in the State. It does not stop there. We receive an incredibly generous travel and accommodation allowance, which is unvouched and not independently set, of between €9,000 and €34,000, depending on one's distance from the Dáil. There are also excessively generous additional payments for Chairs of Oireachtas committees, Ministers of State, Ministers, An Tánaiste and An Taoiseach.

I will give an example of what that means in real terms. My Fine Gael constituency colleague, the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, has a basic take-home pay of €171,000 a year. My Fianna Fáil constituency colleague, Deputy John Curran, because he is the Chair of a committee, has a basic take-home pay of €104,000 a year.

As if these excessive rates of pay were not sufficient, nobody has mentioned the incredibly generous pension scheme of which Deputies avail. If I understand the scheme correctly, an average Deputy will get a pension contribution payment from the State of in the region of €90,000 annually. If they are lucky enough to do four terms in the House, that gives them an annual pension payment of €46,000 and a pension pot of €1.8 million. What do Deputies put into that pension contribution annually? They put in €5,000.

Nobody can say these levels of pay and pensions are not excessive. In fact, at some level no one can say they are not obscene. On a number of occasions in the past Dáil, Sinn Féin tabled legislation in the House to reform those payments substantially. Other parties, including Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, in particular, opposed them. Instead, we have the spectacle today of Deputies effectively saying they deserve a pay rise. I listened to Deputy Catherine Connolly very carefully. While I respect her opinion, this is a serious issue. At a time when people across the State are struggling to get by, the rates of pay of the people in the House is something we should debate. We do not propose to break the Independents; this is simply about saying that a pay increase is not acceptable at this time.

The idea that anybody in the House deserves, or indeed needs, an extra €5,000 a year is not only wrong, but drives a wedge between the public and politicians. That is the fault of politicians who are accepting this pay rise, not those of us who object to it. Like my party colleagues, I do not take home a full Deputy's salary. I invest the remainder in constituency services and my community, something for which I make no apology. In this instance, given the timing of this pay rise, I will simply not accept it and will instead return it to the Exchequer. The reason for this is simple. Nobody in the House deserves or needs a pay rise. If one believes and supports those very simple facts, then I urge every Deputy in the House to support the motion.

Deputy Martin Kenny

Over the past number of days, we have seen the issue of pay to the forefront with teachers, nurses and gardaí. Pay is an issue for people at the bottom who have started life on salaries of €23,000 or €24,000 and are finding it very difficult to survive. I am also very conscious that many young people who are unemployed are receiving €100 a week. It is proposed that Deputies receive an increase of €100 per week at a time when others only receive a total of €100 a week. Whatever else we are debating, this issue is about a sense of fairness in our society. If we in this Chamber stand for anything, it should be having a sense of fairness.

There has been a lot of talk, and people have debated back and forth and have thrown dirt at each other about where we are and where we stand. That is all well and good, but at the end of the day the public looking on are wondering whether the people in this Chamber live in the real world. I think in particular of the working poor, such as the families who are trying to survive, and pay for mortgages and car insurance who cannot get medical cards because their incomes are slightly over the limit but cannot afford medical insurance. They cannot afford to pay for child care and are struggling to survive. All of those people are looking on and found there was nothing in the budget for them, yet those at the very top are giving themselves an increase of €100 a week.

The motion is about establishing a sense of fairness and ensuring that we make sure that everyone has a fair crack of the whip. We have to restore a sense of fair play, rather than just talking about it. I fully respect that all Members have their views on the motion. We are all in political parties. We will throw dirt at each other and try to get the best we can for our positions. However, we all have to recognise that we have to run for election. Everyone who runs for election has to go back out and face the people, no matter what party they are in or whether they are an Independent.

Those who want to run for election again need to think seriously about whether they will be able to face the ordinary people who are struggling. Many have had to emigrate from this country because there is nothing here for them. Will Members be able to face them, knowing that they were prepared to accept an increase in pay not just for those in the House, but for others who are in receipt of very high salaries? It is simply wrong, and that is why I will support the motion.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

I am conscious of time so I will cut to the point. I want to compare our situation as Deputies to workers in the child care sector. A national demonstration and strike has been organised by hundreds of child care professionals for Tuesday of next week. This is a result of the sector's absolute frustration and exasperation with the refusal of the Government to acknowledge the worsening working conditions and right to fair pay for the hours worked.

Understandably, the announcement of pay restoration for Deputies has frustrated those working in the early years sector. The revelation regarding the restoration of pay at the time of the budget in October understandably further frustrated those in the early years sector. The prospect of Deputies getting a pay rise when early years child care professionals are being told there is not enough money in the pot for adequately improved capitation rates which could, in turn, significantly improve wages, is pushing staff to the edge. Deputies in the House are out of touch on this issue and the difficulties staff and providers are experiencing, with many being forced to leave the sector. We hear a lot of talk about child care, but that is the reality for staff working in the sector.

Let us be clear. Decisions and positions can be changed if the political will is there. Sinn Féin opposed the terms of the various FEMPI Acts and when such legislation was first brought forward we tabled amendments to reduce the pay of Deputies to €75,000. This, as we know, was rejected. What does this tell our constituents and what message does it send out from the Chamber that Deputies believe they deserve more?

With this motion, we have the opportunity to show that at the very minimum we will not take pay restoration while others continue to struggle, that pay for Deputies and Senators is not a priority and that when it comes to issues regarding pay the current concerns of other sectors are where the focus should be. I urge other Deputies to support the motion.

Deputy Pat Buckley

This will probably be my shortest speech. When the Government gives a fiver a week to a pensioner and €2.70 a week to a young person on the dole, how can we possibly justify giving ourselves an extra €100 a week on top of all we have? Rents increased by 11% in September, yet we are spending our time here increasing wages instead of introducing rent certainty. How can people trust a Government or Parliament which behaves like this? I ask the Government to stop the pay increase and instead focus on helping those who need it.

Minister of State at the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform (Deputy Seán Canney)

I welcome the constructive comments from Deputies regarding public service pay priorities. We are open to engagement on these and other issues as part of the reform budgetary process. Working together, the Government and the Oireachtas need to decide what public service pay increases are affordable and sustainable on the basis of our economic growth and tax structure, with appropriate inputs from public servants and their staff representatives.

Pay restoration is a legitimate expectation of public servants, but there are many other legitimate expectations for increased Government expenditure. Housing must be balanced with health care, pensioners' needs with those of school children and public service remuneration with public service recruitment. Increases need to be sustainable not just for one budget, but on a multi-annual basis.

Risks to our economic growth and Government expenditure, including Brexit, lower EU growth rates and the result of an American election tonight, exist. These risks may be assimilated and planned for so that permanent expenditure commitments are not loaded onto an insecure base. Government expenditure needs to be targeted, proportionate and appropriate. We cannot let any one group in society appropriate all the benefits of the recovery.

It is in this context that this Government is committed to a collective approach to public service pay. Collective agreements deliver mutual benefits to the employer and the employee. They have served our country in the recent past and will continue to do so into the future. We value the work and commitment of our public servants, but we must ensure that any approach to pay restoration is within the parameters of what is available and affordable. This allows us to continue to improve services in the years ahead and to proceed along the path of using a strong economy to build a fairer society. This must be fair for everyone: those who work in our public services and those who depend on our public services.

We will work with the union interests to deliver an agreed pathway to sustainable pay restoration. The alternative is a series of disparate and costly wage deals that will undermine the economic progress that we have made and will not deliver the fairness required.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

This debate was needed. Last August, I was one of the first Deputies to say that, given people throughout the country have been struggling over recent years, it was not morally right to accept the increase. Ex-taoisigh are to get an extra €15,000 while there are those who are struggling to pay a mortgage. An increase in the salaries of 158 Deputies will not make or break the world, but it sends out the wrong signal. People throughout the country are living in tough conditions at the moment and Deputies have to ensure that the message is sent out to every constituency that we are not in it for the money.

I question the whole system. Deputies are like subbies. We are here for two, three or, perhaps, five years. If I were doing a job in the private sector, once I had it done, I would have to go and do the next one. I question what we are entitled to when it comes to pensions, etc. Can the country afford this type of system? The deals negotiated by the unions need to be questioned. We can compare those who earn €20,000 to €40,000 a year and the pay rises they are to get with the union bosses who are on €140,000 or €150,000 a year and who negotiated increases of €5,000 to €6,000 for those in the upper echelons of the Civil Service and Deputies. This motion should not apply only to Deputies. It should be extended to anyone in the public service who is earning more than €70,000 or €80,000 a year. They should not be getting pay rises, because it is middle Ireland that has suffered and been crippled in the past years.

It is good to hear in the past few minutes that the teachers' strike has been called off. Common sense needed to prevail because children needed to return to school. The upper echelons, be they ex-taoisigh or senior civil servants, are all in the mix and represented by their unions. They need to take the bull by the horns, step back and say they are not entitled to the increase. If legislation is required, it should be enacted. Whatever money is saved should be given to middle Ireland. It should be given to young nurses and teachers. We do not have a pot of gold. We cannot give out money on every side of us. We need to ensure that those who are in most need get it.

I would also like to see an end to Deputies who have public service jobs such as teaching posts straddling both sides. They should not preach that they are Deputies while they hold onto their public service job and someone else is sent in to substitute. Give up the job. Let that person have it. Be brave enough to make that decision and show a way forward. Do not try to keep two jobs going at the one time.

Deputy John Brady

No one in this Chamber this evening deserves a pay rise of any description. Let us be clear about that. While the Taoiseach, Tánaiste and some Ministers have stated that they will not take their respective increases, they have not stated the same in respect of the increase of more than €5,000 for Deputies. The increase should not be taken by any Deputy. It is outrageous that those on the average wage in the public sector, earning €30,000 to €40,000 annually, are to get pay restoration of €1,000 while Deputies are expecting to take more than €100 a week. We can then compare it with the unemployed young people in this State who are expected to live on a weekly payment of €102.70, an increase of €2.70 in this budget.

I wish to clarify the details concerning the pay of Sinn Féin Deputies. All Sinn Féin Deputies draw down the full salary and take the average industrial wage out of it. The rest goes into constituency services. We make no apology for using that money to provide a first class service for our constituents throughout the State. Our job is to serve them and we make no apologies for it. It is also worth noting that this money is also used to employ additional staff in our offices, which saves the State money by taking them off the live register. Any change in our pay situation is a matter for Sinn Féin Deputies. It will not pose any additional cost to the State.

Tonight's motion is about whether Deputies should get an increase in salary, which will be an additional cost to the State at a time of significant industrial unrest in the public sector. The Government just about managed to avoid an all out strike of the gardaí last week. This evening, the ASTI has called off its industrial action, but that issue is not yet resolved. It needs to be resolved and the Government's sole focus should be on it. It is time for all Deputies to show real leadership and to forgo this pay increase. I call on Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Independent Deputies to support this Sinn Féin motion and to oppose the gravy train and the additional €5,400 on top of what is an already huge salary.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I sincerely hope that those Deputies who will not support our motion will put their hands in their pockets and use their €100 a week to buy a bit of brasso for their brass necks. This is exactly what people will think when watching us this evening. They will see people who earn €87,000 a year and who lecture pensioners and tell them to be grateful for a fiver accept a €100 a week pay increase.

I was sent to the Dáil not to make a large amount of money but to stand up for people. I did not come here to take or support a weekly pay increase of €100 for myself but to speak for those the Minister believes should be grateful for a fiver a week.

The Government has stated repeatedly that Deputies, Senators, Ministers, public servants and everybody else had their pay cut and that the proposed increase in Deputies' pay is in line with the Lansdowne Road agreement. According to the Government, teachers at the bottom of the payscale who are worried about how they will pay their rent should be grateful for the protection afforded by the agreement. The Lansdowne Road agreement is crashing down around the Minister's feet. Unlike most of the Deputies present, Deputy Funchion and I have taken cases to the Labour Court on behalf of low-income workers who had justified pay claims. We were repeatedly told by the people seated on the other side who represented the Government that these claims could not be processed during the lifetime of the Lansdowne Road agreement because they would have a cost-increasing effect. Members of An Garda Síochána have exploded that myth.

As the president of SIPTU, Jack O'Connor, stated on a radio programme this morning and as plenty of others have pointed out, the Lansdowne Road agreement is over. Those who are left clinging tightly to the agreement are the people who are set to receive a pay increase of €100 per week. Everybody else in the public service is watching the Dáil. People know Deputies are well paid. No one disputes that we work hard but none of us works harder than a nurse working a shift in an accident and emergency department tonight or a teacher who came off the picket line today and will face his or her pupils tomorrow. If they are following this debate, I do not believe they will say that Deputies are worth this pay increase.

I am old enough to remember a time when the Labour Party had socialist members. By God, that party has changed. To be lectured by a Teachta Dála from the Labour Party who wags his finger and tells the House in no uncertain terms that he has no compunction about taking this pay increase because he is worth it is nothing short of disgraceful.

I will address the Fianna Fáil Deputies who expressed faux outrage about a potential loss of independence. I hope Deputy Calleary misunderstood the argument we have been making as I would like him to find it in his conscience to support the motion. Not one person on this side has suggested Deputies give up their independence. Sinn Féin is perfectly prepared to maintain the independent setting of Deputies' wages, but that does not mean we should take this pay increase.

Everyone speaks about being fair to low and middle-income workers. Fianna Fáil repeatedly says we should be fair to these workers out of one side of its mouth, while from the other side of its mouth, it says it will start being fair to low and middle-income workers by taking a €5,000 pay increase. Deputies on a salary of €87,000 will lead by example by taking a €5,000 pay increase, while shedding crocodile tears for people in the public service who tonight are worrying about how they will pay their rent and feed their children. I urge Deputies to lead by example and do the right thing by supporting the motion.

Amendment put.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 10 November 2016.

The Dáil adjourned at 9.45 p.m. until 12 noon on Wednesday, 9 November 2016.