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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 8 Feb 2017

Vol. 937 No. 4

Leaders' Questions

All of us in this House will be very saddened at the devastating news that has been visited upon 500 workers at HP Inc. in Leixlip, County Kildare. The loss of such a large number of jobs will obviously, in the first instance, have an extraordinary and devastating impact on the workers and their families. It will have a wider impact on the community and economy of the hinterland around north Kildare. It is clear that the closure of the plant was in the company's plans since last October when it announced that it would cut between 3,000 and 4,000 jobs globally. The production of personal computers, cartridges and printers is under pressure as a business.

There is a need for the Government to come to the assistance of the workers and to ensure that there is a comprehensive plan, involving the Department of Social Protection and Enterprise Ireland, in terms of trying to help some workers to set up new businesses, which happened in the past in similar situations. Solas must also be involved in the context of providing return to work and training programmes to equip people for other job opportunities. I ask the Taoiseach to outline what the Minister has in mind regarding a comprehensive response so that the needs of the workers will be attended to immediately and in an effective way.

It was very unfair and distressing that the workers heard this news through the national media yesterday. I would like assurances from the Taoiseach that no member of the Government or a governmental representative briefed the media in advance of the workers getting a detailed presentation from the company. What happened was unusual because in situations of this nature, companies do not tend to leak such news. They generally meet their workforce in advance to tell them the actual details. I ask the Taoiseach to provide some reassurances on that front. More fundamentally, since the global announcement last October, what steps did the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation take in terms of meeting Hewlett Packard executives? Did the Minister meet them since last October? How many meetings took place?

Is the Minister or the Government in a position to indicate to the House that future plans at Hewlett Packard are ones that are in the growth areas such as 3D printing etc., and are there opportunities for Ireland from this company into the future? Are the existing jobs in Kildare secure with regard to Hewlett Packard Enterprise and has the Government received guarantees on that? Would the Minister be willing to come to the House to answer questions today on the closure and on such a large loss of jobs?

I thank Deputy Martin for raising this important matter. Like him, all our concerns and priorities at the moment are with the workers and their families in HP Inc. Thank God this is not a common occurrence these days where the line of investment into the country continues to remain very strong. I thank the workers for the efforts they have put in over the years since Hewlett Packard came to Leixlip in 1995.

I can confirm to the Deputy that IDA Ireland has been involved intensely with Hewlett Packard over the last period and the chief executive travelled out specifically to southern California to talk to the HR personnel at Hewlett Packard some time ago. The Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation spoke to the principals in Hewlett Packard last week but, unfortunately, the company was not turning from the decision it had made. The efforts made over the period by IDA Ireland and the Minister were, in the end, in vain because the company decided that the particular product in HP Inc. was to be discontinued. The Minister will be answering questions here later today.

I can confirm to Deputy Martin that Department of Social Protection staff will involve themselves directly with the workforce in the plant but they need to be invited in there. It would mean that workers in the HP Inc. plant would not have to go through the Intreo offices and could deal directly with Department of Social Protection staff who will go to the plant to engage with the workers and advise them of their benefits and rights. I understand that the company intends that there would be an enhanced severance package to employees as well as information about outplacement and support thereafter.

I have no knowledge of a briefing from any source in Government on this matter. These days, however, it is very hard to know where any information comes from. Privacy does not seem to be considered by everybody anymore. In any event, it is unfortunate that workers heard about this on the national airwaves before they had the opportunity to be informed by the management of the workforce.

This is a brilliant location, it is a fabulous building and it has multiple uses. It could be sold as a going concern. IDA Ireland and the Minister's efforts will now be to provide an alternative in what is a superb location. I can confirm to the Deputy that the line of investment enquiries into the country is very strong. That does not just help the workforce today. One hopes that with the efforts of IDA Ireland and the Ministers for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation and Social Protection, we will see to it that in so far as the State can offer it, support will be given and that a replacement will be found in order that people can be retrained in the shortest possible time for this particular location.

I thank the Taoiseach for his reply but he might clarify further. This is quite a good company. Hewlett Packard employed quite a significant number of people over a long period. That has to be put on the record. The Taoiseach did seem to indicate, however, that the Minister spoke to the company last week. Will the Taoiseach outline when the Minister met the company and how many times she has met the company since last October? There was an announcement last October that the company was going to shed 3,000 to 4,000 jobs globally in a rationalisation programme when it divided the two companies into Hewlett Packard Enterprise and HP Inc.

Clearly, there were fears for Leixlip as a result of that announcement.

Did the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation travel to Palo Alto to meet Hewlett Packard executives between October and last week? If so, will the Taoiseach outline the content of those discussions? Invariably, when one sector of business is under pressure, other opportunities open up for the future. Were any commitments given by HP in this regard? Is the Government, through IDA Ireland, pursuing any particular new areas of investment that could replenish the jobs that have been lost at the HP Inc. plant in Leixlip? It is important we have clarification regarding the efforts the Minister has made in terms of meeting with executives since October to source new activity for the Leixlip plant.

It is important to say that this has nothing to do with Hewlett Packard Enterprise, which is a separate arm of the HP operation. It has been a totally separate company since November 2015 and it employs more than 2,100 people at its facilities in Cork, Galway and Leixlip. I have visited those plants on a number of occasions. HP Inc. will retain a small sales entity and support presence in Leixlip. It is only some five weeks since it became apparent that HP Inc. was going to shed workers at the Leixlip plant. The chief executive of IDA Ireland travelled to Palo Alto specifically to discuss the decision with senior management. The Minister did not travel to California but did speak to senior management by telephone in recent days. She will answer questions in that regard in the House later. IDA Ireland was intensely involved in identifying the many options that may be considered for Leixlip. It is a fabulous location and a brilliant plant. Unfortunately, the technology and product have fallen out of date with changes that have occurred globally. The Minister will answer questions later and will give the Deputy full information on all of this. IDA Ireland is actively considering alternative options.

Yesterday, I raised with the Taoiseach the scandal of tens of thousands of patients being omitted from official waiting list numbers published by the National Treatment Purchase Fund, as revealed on the "RTE Investigates" programme on Monday evening. I will return on another day to my party's recommendation for dealing with this emergency. I wish today to raise another shocking case that highlights the utter incompetence of the Government in managing our health service. The Taoiseach will recall the case of Meadhbh McGivern and the failure to transport her for a liver transplant in July 2011. An inquiry was put in place into the circumstances which led to that failure and to examine existing inter-agency arrangements for people requiring emergency transportation for transplant surgery. Among the recommendations of the inquiry was the need for co-ordination of land and air logistics for patients requiring emergency aero-medical transportation on a 24-hour basis and the requirement for staff to be trained appropriately in aero-medical logistics. At the time, in response to a question from me, the Taoiseach expressed his deep regret for what happened to Meadhbh. I understand from an interview by her father that, buíochas le Dia, she is now doing well.

Fast forward to 22 December last year when Our Lady's Children's Hospital in Crumlin was told by the national aero-medical command centre set up after Meadhbh's case that the transportation of priority 1 children for heart and liver transplants could not be guaranteed over the Christmas period. The matter was brought to the direct attention of the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris. On 3 January, the hospital was informed that the situation had worsened, that the four-hour timeframe for heart transplants was unlikely to be achievable and that the six-hour timeframe for liver transplants was also in doubt. This affects seven children whose lives are at risk. Their families were not informed of these developments.

On 16 January, the hospital was told that the situation will remain unchanged until the end of May this year at the earliest and the Department of Health stated at the time that it will continue to raise the issues with the Department of Defence.

The Taoiseach is the Minister responsible for the Department of Defence. He also expressed deep regret about how Ms Meadhbh McGivern was treated yet it seems that a key recommendation has not been implemented. These are deeply worrying times for the children and the families concerned. Has the Department of Health raised these issues with the Department of Finance and, if so, will the Taoiseach give us the details of this contact? Has this matter been raised directly with the Taoiseach, in his capacity as Minister for Defence, by the Minister for Health, and what is the Taoiseach proposing to do about it? Will the Taoiseach clarify what contingency plans are in place for the transport of transplant patients?

I read the letters in respect of this. Within the HSE, the national aeromedical co-ordination centre is responsible for the co-ordination of emergency aeromedical patient transfers to hospitals within Ireland and abroad. As part of that inter-hospital transfer service, the Department of Defence has an agreement with the Department of Health and the HSE for the Air Corps to use its fleet of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft to transport patients - children or adults - and medical teams between hospitals in Ireland and abroad on an available basis. If a call comes through, Air Corps personnel may be involved in sea rescues or other activities. The service is obviously dependent upon the availability of suitable aircraft and the availability of crews to fly them. When the Air Corps is not available, the HSE has arrangements in place with the Irish Coast Guard or private air operators to provide the inter-hospital transfers.

The Air Corps has experienced retirements of highly experienced personnel. There is a current shortage of pilots within the Air Corps, which is a central issue, but the Air Corps continues to provide an inter-hospital transfer service, albeit on a reduced basis because of that. It means that out of hours on weekdays, between 6 p.m. and 8 a.m. the following day, the Air Corps does not have air crews standing by for fixed-wing aircraft.

As to what happens in the meantime, obviously every effort is being made to address this. There are 28 cadets going through three classes at present under the various stages of training to be pilots and other aircraft personnel but that will only yield results in the medium term. The Minister for Health and the Minister of State with statutory responsibility for health are looking at what options are open now.

The Department of Defence has always kept the Department of Health aware of this. The fact of the matter is when a call comes that a transplant opportunity is available for a person, they need to know that they will be able to get to the hospital in London, elsewhere in Britain or wherever it might be within the timescale involved.

The service that the emergency aeromedical service provides is based in Custume Barracks in Athlone and that continues to operate as normal. That delivers life-saving treatment and rapid aeromedical transport for seriously ill patients throughout the country. Since its inception, it has transported 2,500 patients in this regard. Obviously, because of those unexpected retirements in air traffic control, the availability of Baldonnel as an aerodrome has been reduced. There are a number of other technical options that are being considered. The Minister of Health is meeting the Minister of State at the Department of Defence. We want to get this in such a way that there is a guarantee for people that all of the options can be considered to have a patient transferred within the four-hour timescale involved.

We were told weeks ago that the Minister for Health was meeting the Minister of State at the Department of Defence. It still has not happened. I asked the Taoiseach a clear question. Did the Minister for Health raise this issue directly with the Taoiseach?

These children are waiting for transport now. If they got word that there was a transplant, they would not be able to be transported by the Air Corps now.

The Taoiseach talks about unexpected retirements. Approximately ten retirements are expected in the next year and five have already given notice.

However, I will come to the crux of the matter. It came in confidential form to our spokesperson on health, Deputy Louise O'Reilly, and it considers the impact of personnel shortages in the Air Corps. The Taoiseach has responsibility for this. The shortages have a direct effect on contingency arrangements for children on the transport list. The current class of pilot cadets will not have been through basic training until next September at the earliest. Then they must undertake further basic training, which can take between one and two years. None of the current class of pilot cadets will be qualified to undertake this type of ambulance mission in 2017 and perhaps into late 2018. With regard to unexpected retirements, not one recommendation in two Department of Defence working group reports on how to retain experienced pilots has been acted on even though the Taoiseach has held that job for the past six years. This is the Taoiseach's direct responsibility, as is the failure to implement the recommendation in Meadhbh McGivern's case.

These are extremely worrying times for the parents, the children involved and their families. They need clarity on what arrangements are in place. Will the Taoiseach provide clarity? If a family gets word that a transplant is available now, will the Taoiseach outline the contingencies to get the child to where he or she can receive that life-saving operation?

If a call came now, at 12.20 p.m., the answer is "Yes". The Department of Defence has an agreement with the HSE to supply that transport. However, who knows whether there might be unfortunate circumstances where an air-sea rescue might be taking place at a particular time and helicopters might be involved in that.

There are two challenges here. One is a shortage of pilots. Some have retired and some have gone to other employment. We do not have control over that. The second is the air traffic controllers. Given the technology, it is possible to carry out air traffic control from different locations. There are 28 cadets currently in training who will become pilots who are able to fly both fixed-wing aircraft and helicopters. In the meantime, outside the hours I have mentioned, we must use either the Coast Guard, the Custume Barracks emergency aeromedical support or private enterprise. The important matter is that if a call comes for a patient, be they an adult or child, a service will be provided.

This was brought to my attention at the weekend and I have asked for a report from the Department of Defence. I am the Minister for Defence, but I have given statutory responsibility for many areas in the Department to the Minister of State, Deputy Kehoe. He is meeting the Minister for Health and as soon as I have that report-----

When is the meeting?

They are meeting today. As soon as I have that report I will make it public in order that parents of children, in particular, will have the comfort of knowing that if a call comes in respect of their child, it will be answered with available transport within the time period.

The charges that have been laid at the Garda Commissioner's door are incredibly serious. The Government has acknowledged this in making the decision to establish a commission of investigation to be chaired by Mr. Justice Peter Charleton. It is quite unusual for the Government to have made a decision to establish a commission of investigation without consultation with the Opposition parties. We have not been furnished with a copy of Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill's report, even in redacted form, although it was delivered to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality more than two months ago, nor have we been consulted on the terms of reference for the commission. I do not know if Fianna Fáil, the Taoiseach's partner in Government, has received advance copies but the rest of the Members on the Opposition benches have not. This is not good enough.

I presume the Government will make time available for a full debate on the terms of reference but in the meantime, the fact the Garda Commissioner remains on active duty is troubling. I cannot think of another walk of life where, if allegations of this nature had been made against a person in a position of power, he or she would not be placed on administrative leave until the outcome of the investigation is known. This would be true of a school principal or even a shop manager. That it is not true for the head of An Garda Síochána is troubling. In this case the allegations are serious enough to warrant a commission of investigation. While some argument could be made for leaving the Garda Commissioner in place while Mr. Justice O'Neill carried out his initial investigation, I do not believe it is appropriate for as long as the formal commission of investigation is under way.

This morning a journalist contacted me and told me they had direct knowledge of calls made by the Garda Commissioner to journalists during 2013 and 2014 in the course of which the Commissioner made very serious allegations of sexual crimes having been committed by Sergeant Maurice McCabe. In 2015, the Garda Commissioner oversaw the investigation which examined the call logs of a Garda officer who was under suspicion of leaking material to the media. If it was a fact that the Garda Commissioner was in direct contact with the media making allegations against one of her own officers at around the same time, it would be quite extraordinary. I do not know whether the charges that have been made against the Garda Commissioner are true or not.

I am concerned that the Deputy is raising points in the House that are extremely dangerous and that he is taking us into territory into which we should not venture. It is not an appropriate matter to raise in the House.

Yesterday, it was announced that there is to be a commission of inquiry into these matters. We have not seen the terms of reference for that. Those on the Opposition benches have not seen the redacted or full report that led the Government to make the decision. I am making no allegation.

To raise the question of the commission of inquiry is perfectly legitimate. However, the Deputy has just recounted a dúirt bean liom go ndúirt bean léi story relating to a journalist contacting him and referencing the Garda Commissioner. I do not think such a statement is appropriate.

I will be guided by the Ceann Comhairle. I have some track record in these matters.

The Deputy does.

On the previous occasion that such information was given to me, I went directly to the then Minister for Justice and Equality, who caused an inquiry into these matters. I ended up in both the High Court and the Supreme Court, where I was told the proper course of action would have been to raise such matters directly in the House.

We have a long-standing tradition not to name people outside the House who are not in a position to defend themselves.

There is to be a formal inquiry into these matters. I am saying that I have been contacted by somebody who is willing to give evidence to the commission and, in the circumstances, it is my belief that the Garda Commissioner should stand aside until the inquiry comes to its determination. I ask the Taoiseach to agree with me on that.

I do not agree. The matter the Deputy has raised is of the most serious import and he understands this. The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Fitzgerald, received the report last October from Mr. Justice Iarfhlaith O'Neill on his review of two protected disclosures which deal with matters of privacy, confidentiality and constitutional import. The Tánaiste will lay the order before the House today, as is required in dealing with commissions of investigation and matters of protected disclosure. The report to be published will be what can be published, taking into account those parameters of privacy, confidentiality and constitutional importance. It will be published today on advice received by the Tánaiste. The reason for the commission of investigation is because Mr. Justice O'Neill, in his review, pointed out that the review could not have attempted to establish where the truth lies in respect of the very serious allegations made here.

We have not seen the review.

Protected disclosures are protected and the law is there for whistleblowers. These are allegations that are vehemently denied by the two people against whom they were made. For this purpose, the Attorney General spoke to the Chief Justice about appointing a judge to deal with it, as the Tánaiste announced yesterday.

There are set procedures that have to be followed. The Government yesterday approved the Tánaiste's recommendations that a commission should be set up, that the draft order which she brought to Government would be approved, that the order would be laid before the House and that the statement of reasons would be laid before both Houses of the Oireachtas. With regard to the approving of the appropriate motions, it was agreed that a suitable person should be appointed to conduct the investigation and that the issues are followed in correct sequence in that regard.

What Deputy Howlin said has been commented upon by the Ceann Comhairle in respect of hearsay, and Deputy Howlin has answered that. What is at issue here is a series of allegations the truth of which has not been tested yet, and which I can tell the House are wholly and vehemently denied by those against whom the allegations are made. These are not circumstances where a prima facie case of wrongdoing has been established. Mr. Justice O'Neill makes no findings in regard to anyone. In the case of the Garda Commissioner, as I have consistently stated on many occasions, there has been no finding of any wrongdoing of any kind against her and in those circumstances, she is entitled to our full support and that remains the position.

In calling you back, Deputy Howlin, I remind you that in your previous role as Minister, you brought forward legislation to deal with the whole area of confidential communications, so more than most Members in this House, you have detailed knowledge of the area.

I was going to instance that very legislation, having worked for a very long time to protect whistleblowers. We have a very poor record in this jurisdiction of listening to whistleblowers or acting upon their information.

I have not seen the report because the Government has not provided it to us, although it has caused a commission of investigation without any discussion with the Opposition parties, which is most unusual. Everybody is entitled to the presumption of innocence but issues that warrant a full investigation must be fully ventilated and fully investigated. As I said, in the normal course of events, when there serious issues like these that go to the heart of the administration of justice in our State, people will be asked to stand aside, without any predetermination of outcome, until there is a full, fair and complete investigation of all the matters concerned and a determination of the outcome. Our primary duty is to ensure that we restore confidence to An Garda Síochána, which has been battered and bruised by many investigations and allegations. I believe that means we must have decisive and clear action from all sides of this House.

It is not possible at this stage to put the entire report in the public domain in view of the nature of the allegations that are contained in the protected disclosures. The House will appreciate there is an obligation, including a general constitutional obligation, to protect the good names and reputations of persons who may be the subject of untested allegations and, in that regard, it is not appropriate to comment further. Deputies will have ample opportunity to debate the issues when the motion to approve the draft order is taken in the House. Furthermore, I must caution that the persons who made the protected disclosures are, pending the laying of the draft order before the House, still entitled to have their identities protected in accordance with the Protected Disclosures Act 2014.

Nobody made reference to any of them.

Obviously, the draft order will come in now. The statement of reasons will contain Mr. Justice O'Neill's conclusions and recommendations and his proposed terms of reference, which are being followed in full. I might add that those persons against whom the allegations have been made have co-operated fully with Mr. Justice O'Neill in his report and, obviously, will do the same with the commission of investigation.

In court in Belfast yesterday, campaigners against political policing won a full hearing into the failure to include Northern Ireland in the Pitchford inquiry into undercover policing in Britain. This comes after the Stormont Minister of Justice officially requested its inclusion. The German Government has written to the British Government seeking the inclusion of the actions of the so-called spy cops in Germany and the Scottish Government has done the same.

British undercover police officers were also operating in this State but yet the Irish Government has so far refused to request the inclusion of their activities in that investigation. Why is that? I presume the Taoiseach has heard of Mark Kennedy, who was exposed as a secret member of the national public order intelligence unit. He had multiple intimate relationships with women using his false identity as an environmental activist called Mark Stone.

We are at this again. Deputy, please.

No, it is all in the public domain. The Minister has admitted to this. There is no-----

Deputy, please.

This is all completely in the public domain.

It is not in order. It is not in order to come into the House and name individuals inside the House.

It is in the newspapers.

I have an apology from the Metropolitan Police here. It is admitted; it is not in question. The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality has answered questions admitting he was here. This man was here and had intimate relations with women using his false identity as an environmental activist.

If the Deputy is going to raise a matter of that nature, he should at least inform the Chair in advance. The Deputy is on his feet so he may continue.

It has been raised multiple times in the House. He was in Ireland and it is admitted he was in Ireland on multiple occasions. He participated in the Shell to Sea protests in the Taoiseach's constituency. He organised meetings here in the run-up to the protest in Gleneagles at the G8 in 2005. He was arrested by the Garda in Dublin on 3 May 2004. Sarah Hampton, a US citizen, met Mark Kennedy in Ireland in 2005. On Monday, in a statement read out in Dublin she said:

Finding out that Mark was an undercover police officer brought about a deep depression that seemed impossible to navigate, there were times I almost gave up completely. The process of seeking justice on this case has felt at times belittling, intimidating and downright scary. ... I felt I had been raped. I never consented to sleeping with a police officer.

He had other intimate relationships in Ireland based on a lie and an abuse of power. This political policing targeted at left wing and environmental activists breached their right to privacy in this State, which is enshrined in the European Convention on Human Rights. Those affected are seeking answers and justice. Mark Kennedy was not just one bad apple. He was part of a system of political policing and abuse of rights. As well as him, we know of at least three other undercover British police officers who operated in this State - Jim Boyling, Mark Jenners and John Dines. There is a huge number of unanswered questions here. The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality has confirmed the Garda was aware of Mark Kennedy's presence. On what basis and on whose authority did he have permission to operate here? Did the Garda know of other undercover officers? Was anybody convicted of any crimes as a result of any evidence or actions? Fifty-six convictions or prosecutions have been overturned in Britain as a result of his involvement. I have two questions. Can we have the publication of the report commissioned in 2011 by the Garda Commissioner into his activities and can we have a commitment to publish the report that is currently ongoing? Will the Irish Government join with the other countries affected in requesting the extension of the Pitchford inquiry to the actions of these undercover officers in this State?

The Deputy has put a lot of information before the House in respect of which I do not have details. I can confirm to the Deputy that the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade will meet with the Secretary of State, James Brokenshire, here in Dublin next week to discuss this matter. I do not have any further details I can put before the House now. The Minister will make a statement following his meeting.

I would like a commitment from the Taoiseach that when that meeting takes place, a formal request will be made for the inquiry to be extended to Ireland. It is incomprehensible and unexplainable why that request has not been made unless the Irish Government is saying its protection of British spies in Ireland takes priority over the wish of these people for answers and justice. We have more than enough political policing in this State already without allowing British agents to have a free run here too. There are pictures of Mark Kennedy in Ireland. There are pictures of him with the women affected. There are pictures of him at protests. The idea that has been put in some of the answers by the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality that he was not really operating as a police officer here is not credible. He participated in multiple protests and there is evidence of that. We have the apology, finally granted to Ms Hampton in January, which admits his actions from the point of view of the Metropolitan Police.

It is very important that the Government would make that request and would also publish all the information it has so far.

The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade has not seen the report to which the Deputy referred either. The security forces here would be very concerned about agents from an another country operating in this jurisdiction. We have had incidences of that in the past. I would prefer, if I may presume so, to allow the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, on behalf of the Government, to meet the Secretary of State, to have this matter and matters pertaining to it discussed, and for him to issue a statement after that meeting.

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