Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 21 Mar 2017

Vol. 943 No. 1

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Michael McGrath

I start by offering the sincere sympathies of my party and my leader, Deputy Micheál Martin, on the death of Captain Dara Fitzpatrick of the Irish Coast Guard who was buried at the weekend. We also extend our thoughts and prayers to the families of the missing crewmen of Rescue 116, Captain Mark Duffy, and winch crew, Paul Ormsby and Ciarán Smith, at this incredibly difficult time for their families and friends.

In a moment, we will have an opportunity to convey our sympathies on the untimely passing of the late Martin McGuinness, the former deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland. I will say a few words on that in due course. I acknowledge also the passing of Maureen Haughey, wife of the late Taoiseach, Charles Haughey, mother of our colleague, Deputy Seán Haughey, and daughter of former Taoiseach, Seán Lemass. We also acknowledge and extend our sympathies on the tragic death of the young Derry City footballer, Ryan McBride, over the weekend.

Given that Prime Minister Theresa May announced that she will formally pull the trigger on Article 50 in eight days' time, 29 March, the realities and challenges that Brexit poses on the island of Ireland are now becoming all too real. This trigger means that Brexit will have to take place by March 2019 unless the UK and the remaining 27 member states of the European Union agree to extend the exit talks. As a country, we need to have a number of clear and key priorities in the negotiations, namely, protection of the common travel area between Ireland and the UK; protecting the peace process and the Good Friday Agreement that underpins it and ensuring there is no hard border of any sort on the island of Ireland; and protecting the enormously important trading relationship we have with the UK. The Taoiseach does not need to be reminded of the importance of that trading relationship, with around 14% of all Irish exports going to the UK, but for many indigenous Irish firms, in particular manufacturing firms and those involved in agrifood, for example, the dependence is far greater.

The one thing we must avoid is the cliff effect of the UK falling out of the European Union in two years' time with no interim deal agreed on trade arrangements. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Noonan, alluded to that in recent days. Is it the negotiating position of the Government that there would be an interim deal on how trade between Ireland and the UK and with the remainder of the European Union will be conducted post-Brexit and in advance of any long-term deal on the overall trading arrangement between Ireland, the EU and the UK? We now have an overall timeline.

We know Mr. Donald Tusk has confirmed there will be a meeting of the European Council on 29 April. We also know the European Union General Affairs Council will meet some time in mid-May to adopt formal negotiating directives, with talks now finally getting under way perhaps in late May or early June. The country now deserves to know if Deputy Enda Kenny will be the Taoiseach attending the European Council summit on 29 April. Will he be the Taoiseach in office when the General Affairs Council holds its meeting in mid-May? Will he be the captain of the ship, as such, when these critical negotiations for the future of our country get under way in late May or early June? We deserve clarity on that aspect.

The Taoiseach

I welcome the comments by Deputy Michael McGrath in respect of the efforts being made to complete the recovery of Rescue 116. I was down there yesterday and there was a very heavy swell. There is great co-ordination and communication between all the agencies under the direction of the coastguard. It is very professional and I hope the window with the weather will arise this week so they can make the recovery of the crew members, black boxes and the wreckage in order to determine what happened in this tragedy.

I was not in a position to attend the funeral of the late Mrs. Haughey this morning. I met her on a number of occasions over the years and I sent my aide-de-camp to represent my office as I was in attendance at Cabinet. We will have an opportunity for short statements in respect of the death of Mr. Martin McGuinness, a peacemaker, now departed. I concur with the Deputy's comments on the death of the young captain of the Derry City team and others mentioned.

In addition to the points raised by Deputy Michael McGrath, it is clear our priorities are the common travel area, the protection of the peace process, the non-return to a hard Border and the maintenance of the trading relationship between Ireland and the UK. More important to all our futures is the position of Ireland as a member of the European Union. We will continue to negotiate and participate as a member of those 27 member states. The timescale has been set out and greater clarity is now being brought to the issue with the announcement by the British Prime Minister on the triggering of Article 50. The European Council will respond to this and Ireland is being asked, along with other countries, to put forward its view in respect of the draft negotiations. They will be on the lines I have mentioned.

I do not attend General Affairs Council meetings but I expect to attend the European Council meeting on 29 April and have set out the grounds that we consider really critical in terms of the negotiations to be conducted, which will last for quite a while. It is my view that a transition period must be involved in terms of the trading relationships that will apply. The British Government wants as close a relationship as possible with the European Union and I support that principle. It is how one has that relationship, having been removed from the Single Market and changed position with regard to the customs union, that will be the net point of the negotiations.

Deputy Michael McGrath

I welcome the Taoiseach's acknowledgement of the need for an interim trade deal to ensure there is not a cliff effect in March 2019 when the UK exits the European Union. That would be devastating for many thousands of Irish businesses and potentially many thousands of jobs in the country. That must be acknowledged. The Taoiseach has made it clear he intends to remain in his position to attend the European Council meeting on 29 April. The man sitting next to him, the Minister, Deputy Noonan, yesterday called on the Taoiseach to be in that position when the negotiations get under way in early June.

One of the main contenders for the Taoiseach's position, the Minister, Deputy Coveney, has said he expects the Taoiseach to set out shortly a process for the election of a new leader of the Fine Gael Party. We need to know who will be in charge when these negotiations get under way.

It is not a laughing matter. With all due respect, the Taoiseach once famously said, "Paddy likes to know".

The Taoiseach

He does.

Deputy Michael McGrath

At a time when we are entering the most critical negotiations for the future of our country, we need to know who is in charge. The Taoiseach has personally taken on overall responsibility for Brexit for managing the process and leading the negotiations on Ireland's behalf. Who will be in charge when Ireland enters these negotiations in late May and early June? The people deserve a straight answer.

The Taoiseach

I intend to make my point strongly on 29 April at the European Council meeting. We have prepared well for this. It is not a laughing matter but Deputy Michael McGrath will not be first to find out.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald please.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

Go raibh maith agat, a Cheann Comhairle.

Deputy Michael McGrath

Maybe the people would. Party before country.

(Interruptions).

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy McDonald has the floor.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I want to share in the expressions of sympathy with Captain Dara Fitzpatrick's family and, indeed, with the families of the missing crew of Rescue 116, and acknowledge the passing of Mrs. Maureen Haughey and the loss of young Ryan McBride of Derry City.

Today, I stand here in place of my party leader, Deputy Adams, who spent the night in Derry with the family of our departed friend and comrade, Martin McGuinness. I stand here with a mixture of great pride but also sorrow. I want to place on the record my condolences and those of Sinn Féin to Bernie, Emmet, Fionnuala, Gráinne and Fiachra, to their grandchildren and the extended McGuinness family. They have lost a husband, a brother, a father, a grandfather and a friend.

I want to acknowledge the kind words of President Higgins, those kind words from the Taoiseach, and, indeed, from others in this House. There is no doubt that we have lost a great leader of Irish republicanism. Martin inspired a generation. He showed a generation that achieving real political change is possible. He was a man who stood up to injustice, who fought injustice, and was a man who promoted peace and reconciliation. Martin McGuinness, by any measure, made a huge difference.

The constant in Martin's life was Irish republicanism. He had a genuine and heartfelt desire for equality and for Irish unity and he worked on this goal until his dying day. That is the core to understanding his political activism, his leadership and, indeed, his life. Martin always conducted himself with integrity and with humility. As the House will be aware, he was my party's chief negotiator in the Good Friday and other agreements, agreements that promised that equality would be the basis for progress and the basis for a peaceful pathway to Irish unity. He acted as education Minister and then as deputy First Minister and he wished to see those agreements fully implemented. As the House will be aware, he extended the hand of friendship to political opponents and demonstrated a real respect for everybody in society. He was a patriot and a dedicated peacemaker, a respected statesman.

Martin was a leader of immense stature and when, as happened recently, the agreements which he fought for and stood by were undermined, when confidence in the political institutions was eroded, he acted. In the words of our colleague, Michelle O'Neill, "When something is broken, you stop and you fix it". It was the desire of Martin to see the institutions in the North up and working. He wanted to see our hard-won agreements implemented and to have equality, respect and integrity restored to the political process. That is the work that we all have ahead of us. I believe these are shared objectives for everybody in this Dáil. Today, I want to ask the Taoiseach if he can commit to redouble the efforts of his Government to see the full and speedy implementation of all aspects of those agreements.

The Taoiseach

Ba mhaith liomsa ar dtús comhbhrón a dhéanamh lena bhean chéile, Bernie, agus a chlann, na gasúir, Emmet, Fionnuala, Gráinne agus Fiachra, as ucht bás a fir chéile agus a n-athar. Martin McGuinness became a peacemaker and travelled the road from terror to truce and through peace to government. The high office he held as deputy First Minister with three First Ministers was put together, in part, by this State on foot of its co-guarantorship of the Good Friday Agreement. He was a person who lived by his convictions and in my dealings with him as a politician on the North-South Ministerial Council, the British-Irish Council and in many other arenas, he was always generous and courteous but committed fully to the democratic way of achieving peace. He articulated that on many occasions. When I encountered Martin McGuinness abroad, we were very happy to provide him and the Northern Ireland Office with the facilities of our State in terms of diplomatic connections and invitations to meet with potential investors for the island of Ireland. He was always happy to raise the issues, of which there were many, with the governments of the day here, in Britain and at European level.

The answer to Deputy McDonald's question is "Yes". The Good Friday Agreement was established and voted on North and South by the people, who were overwhelmingly in support of it. It was enshrined as a legally-binding international Agreement backed by Europe, the United States of American and both Governments and it was lodged with the United Nations. There are issues, as Deputy McDonald is well aware, which have not been dealt with. I have a particular interest in the question of legacy issues, of which there are many. I would like to think that following through from the Fresh Start Agreement we can all redouble our efforts in the interests of everyone from all sides of the communities to deal with these issues which should be and can be dealt with.

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a anam dílis.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

I thank the Taoiseach for those kind words. We are all very well aware of the outstanding issues that must be resolved. Let it be noted that they are old issues. These are matters that were identified, discussed, negotiated and agreed many years ago but still we await their implementation. That is what this comes down to. I am aware that the Government, not least in the person of the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charles Flanagan, has been involved in the discussions so far. However, I put it to the Taoiseach that we need to intensify efforts now. It is either that or we tread water. When it comes to making peace, advancing the peace process and making progress across Ireland, treading water is not an option. What will the Taoiseach do now to intensify the efforts to arrive at agreement? What engagement will he have with the British Government? I note the Taoiseach's comment that direct rule is not an option, which we very much welcome. Can he reassure us that this remains the position of the Government and that it will be articulated, iterated and reiterated, if necessary, to Theresa May and her Tory Government?

The Taoiseach

The first priority is for the politicians who have been elected to the Assembly to accept their responsibilities and put together a functioning Executive within the three-week period from the date of the election. There is a set period for that now. The Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Flanagan, has gone to the North again and has had conversations this morning with Secretary of State Brokenshire. It depends on the two major parties, the DUP and Sinn Féin. A functioning Executive is one with an agreed set of objectives, principles and propositions to put forward. When Prime Minister May met the devolved assemblies in Cardiff recently, she was given a presentation by First Minister Jones from Wales and First Minister Sturgeon from Scotland but there was no presentation from Northern Ireland because there is no agreement and no leadership.

The election is over and the result is very clear and the Deputy's party has made substantial gains. It now has a responsibility to work with the major party or parties to put together an Executive that functions. The Executive must be able to set out what it wants for Northern Ireland and what the agreed objectives can be.

Deputy Mary Lou McDonald

The Governments need to fulfil their commitments too, I am sure.

The Taoiseach

While the late Martin McGuinness had differences of opinion with former First Minister Foster, they set out an agreed set of principles and objectives which were sent to Prime Minister May last year. The Sinn Féin Party now needs to measure up to what Martin McGuinness did and put aside differences in the greater interests of the peoples of Northern Ireland in respect of the objectives they wish to pursue. For my part, I will be very happy as head of Government with our Ministers to work with the British Government and the Prime Minister in the interest of pursuing the many outstanding issues since the Good Friday Agreement was put in place in 1998. The immediate priority and the responsibility of the elected politicians in Northern Ireland is to put together a functional Executive. Otherwise we are trying to speak for them from this distance or from other locations. It would be much more preferable if we had an agreed position, stating it as our proposition, and while there will be differences of opinion this does not prevent doing what Martin McGuinness did in the greater interest of peace and harmony in the communities in the North.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I send my sympathy and condolences and those of the Labour Party to the family of the late Captain Dara Fitzpatrick and the crew of Rescue 116, and wish Godspeed to all those engaged now in the important work of recovery for those families. I also send my condolences and those of my party to the family of Derry City captain, Ryan McBride. We will have an opportunity later to have a fuller offering of condolences to the Sinn Féin Party and the family of the late Martin McGuinness.

The Government is pressing ahead with its plans to sell off 25% of AIB. This has been planned despite the fact the proceeds cannot be invested in Irish infrastructure that is so needed. All of us in the House and the people of the country are acutely aware of what it cost the Irish taxpayers and people to bail out our banks. It was always understood and expected we would get back a significant portion of it. We need now to think and plan strategically when it comes to deploying funds which might become available to the State.

For many months I have been making the case for changes to the Stability and Growth Pact to allow for greater investment in public infrastructure. I have been advancing this work with my colleagues in the Party of European Socialists and that work is now being adopted by them. I have also repeatedly raised the matter in the Chamber hoping the Taoiseach would do likewise. Unfortunately, he has not provided a response to date that would indicate he would also push for a shift at European level on this matter. The result is that right now none of the proceeds of the sale of AIB can be invested in building the houses, hospitals and schools which we so urgently need. The policy of selling off our holding in AIB was based on the urgent need to reduce our debt but that situation has dramatically changed since the previous Government made that decision. Net debt had already decreased to 66% of GDP prior to the most recent CSO published data and it will fall further.

Diverting everything we get from the sale of AIB would have an impact of approximately 1.5% on debt, a small impact. The social good it would yield if we deployed it to meet our infrastructure deficits would be infinitely greater. IBEC and the Irish Congress of Trade Unions have pressed for greater investment. The social case for housing and hospitals, as I have already said, is crystal clear, and the economic case for investment in transport and communications is equally so, amplified by having Brexit on the horizon. Will the Taoiseach clarify what efforts he has made to secure changes in the Stability and Growth Pact rules to allow us make the urgent investment we now need in our vital infrastructure, particularly having regard to Brexit?

Will the Taoiseach clarify whether he intends to press ahead with the sale even if the proceeds of the sale cannot be used for infrastructural investment?

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy for his comments on the rescue of Rescue 116 and those who lost their lives.

With regard to the other issue he raised, this is a financial transaction. The paper asset shares are being swapped for a cash injection. That will go towards debt reduction, as the Minister for Finance has made clear. It is also a test of the overall examination of value of AIB. The Government is looking at alternative ways of raising other funding. One of those follows the opening of the European Investment Bank office here in Dublin, which has potential for serious lending of long term, low-interest credit for infrastructure facilities, where a stream of income would be available to repay those loans, whether from tolled motorways, developments of ports or areas of transport like light rail, such as metros or the Luas. The Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform is now conducting a review of the capital programme in partnership with that. The Government allocated almost €5 billion to the Minister for Housing, Planning, Community and Local Government to provide houses across a range of areas and this has been backed up by a suite of changes that have been made by the Government to incentivise both local authorities and housing agencies and provide new impetus for availability of sites and so on. I hope that those three aspects - the review of the capital programme, the opportunity that is now being explored through the European Investment Bank and the capacity for further lending into the system - will bring forward new opportunities for investment here.

The Minister has said that, based on the advice he has received, an initial public offering, IPO, is the best route to recoup the State's investment in AIB and the key objective is to maximise the proceeds that we can recover over time. The State invested €20.8 billion in AIB through a range of instruments during the financial crisis. It has since recovered €6.6 billion through capital repayments, interest income and fees, and still owns about 99.9% of the ordinary share capital. The primary objective of the Minister and of the Government is to recover all of this investment from AIB. We believe that this is a realistic objective over the medium to long term. There are no changes in the Stability and Growth Pact rules here. It is a transfer of these paper shares for cash, which will go towards debt reduction.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Taoiseach mentioned European Investment Bank money. The Taoiseach knows that the issue is not access to money. Money is cheap and accessible to this country. It is the ability under the Stability and Growth Pact rules to spend it which is the issue. I asked if the Taoiseach has done anything to alter the rules to allow the vital infrastructure spend that we need to be made. We have seen financial advisers working on the sale of AIB stand to gain some €40 million from this action over the past couple of weeks. No such benefit will accrue to the taxpayer. We need to see the money that becomes available used for the productive capacity of the State to meet the real infrastructure deficits that we need to meet if we are going to face up to Brexit. That is not a view that I only hold. Last week, The Sunday Times reported that Deputy Michael McGrath had similar concerns while Deputy Pearse Doherty is opposed to the sale. Will the Taoiseach bring proposals to the floor of the House before any further progress is made on this matter since there seems to be a majority in it opposed to the action proposed by Government?

The Taoiseach

The Minister has already pointed out that there are two potential windows for the disposal of the sale this year, either May or June or some time in the autumn. The Government is fortunately not under any particular pressure to sell so the market conditions will impact on when the Minister decides to make his recommendation to Government to sell. The sale of the bank shares would not result in a beneficial impact to the general Government balance as it would not be counted as revenue, as Deputy Howlin is aware.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

That is the very point I am making.

The Taoiseach

There is, therefore, no increased capacity to spend. The proceeds from any IPO would be used to pay down debt. As I pointed out to the Deputy earlier, it is possible to spend substantial moneys off balance sheet provided an income stream can be identified from, for example, investment from the European Investment Bank.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Taoiseach knows that the Department of Finance has worked for three years trying to find that.

The Taoiseach

As Deputy Howlin is well aware, the European Investment Bank is here in Dublin. It is open for business and one of those businesses is to identify streams of income that would have a capacity to repay long-term loans such as, for example, tolled motorways, the development of ports, or provision where there are streams of income from the Luas, metro or light-rail systems. That matter is being actively explored by the Department of Finance with the European Investment Bank.

An Ceann Comhairle

Time is up.

The Taoiseach

I hope that it will bring success and that money can be spent off balance sheet. The Minister is already looking at the question of a review of the capital programme for the time ahead.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

We would also like to acknowledge the sadness that has been felt by many families and communities in recent days.

I want to return to Thursday, 16 February, when the Taoiseach and a number of Ministers, officials and the media came to a hall in the north inner city to launch the report compiled by Mr. Kieran Mulvey. The immediate impetus for the report was a number of murders, some of which happened in the area, but all of them relating to the area.

However, there was a much longer lead-in to what was actually happening. That came about because of the neglect and indifference of many Governments to the area and to the issues there. It also came from budget cuts, as well as financial and economic policies, that adversely and disproportionately affected that area. This was especially the case for community and voluntary organisations, schools and gardaí. In addition, it concerned the way in which drugs were allowed to take hold and devastate individuals and communities. Policies to deal with that were not matched with the necessary resources to implement them. The report acknowledged all of that, including the neglect, dereliction, crime, open drug dealing and poor housing.

The report also acknowledged the area's potential and the community's solidarity. There was extensive community engagement whose driving force was the North Inner City Community Coalition. That coalition organised groups, families and individuals to come together in a number of working parties to deal with education, arts and culture, drugs, crime and sports as they affect young people. The coalition made a substantial submission and although hopes were high, the report fell short of expectations. The report was strong on what needs to be done but less so on how and when. Ironically, there was no mention of drugs, and other key areas were also left out.

As outlined in a letter to the Taoiseach, the coalition confirmed its commitment to the process but it has to bring about fundamental change. For that to happen, it needs a coherent, integrated, radical and innovative approach, and not the same talk and false promises. The voice of the community has to be heard and their concerns relate to community involvement at all levels. The ten-member board has only one community representative so that must be addressed. Following his own personal engagement there, the Taoiseach knows the wealth of experience, insight and knowledge of the people from the community. There are concerns about the timeframe for implementing the process so when will it start? There are also concerns about funding, which must be open and transparent. Committed funding should be additional, rather than money that has already been earmarked for the area.

There are also questions about the independent chair, the role of Dublin City Council, and the need for a long-term commitment regardless of who is in government. The danger is that when the meetings and consultations are over, the report will be left to gather dust. The Taoiseach indicated that he would meet the convenors. He should, therefore, name a date as soon as possible so that those areas can be addressed. That would mean that the report will have a chance to be acted upon.

The Taoiseach

I thank Deputy O'Sullivan for her contributions to the overall report during the course of many discussions we had in the north inner city and here at Government Buildings. She is aware that the report presented by Mr. Kieran Mulvey is both comprehensive and inclusive. It was produced as a consequence of a great deal of discussions that took place in the north inner city. On foot of the report, quite a number of smaller projects have already commenced or are in the process of being completed.

It is also a fact that an office is to be opened in the north inner city to deal with transparency and accessibility and to be a constant reminder of the reasons why this was set up in the first place. This will also be monitored from my Department, in the same way as the action plan for jobs and such like, where reports are produced every three months so that people can see the progress being made. Rather than give the Deputy a date for such a meeting now, I will report to the House on the basis of that office being set up, the system in respect of monitoring from my Department and the independent person being appointed to work together with Dublin City Council, without whose assistance this could not have been done and for which we are very grateful. I will then advise the Deputy of an appropriate date for meeting.

I take the Deputy's point about community involvement. There are some powerful leader personalities in the north inner city. They are all focused on doing the very best for their communities and the general area. That is why it is important that the report is not just left lying there but that it is implemented in a transparent, accountable way so that the people can see the opportunities and facilities being provided. As one young man said on the presentation of the report, one's background or the location where one was born should never be an obstacle or a prohibition to getting a job. Is that not what this is about?

I again thank the Deputy for her contribution.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I am disappointed in that answer because I believe the meeting with the conveners has to take place first. Otherwise, it will be the statutory players who will be giving their decisions about an area when it is the community voice that knows exactly what needs to happen there. This is not just about the north inner city, it can be a template and a framework for other areas, in Dublin and outside it, that are facing similar issues.

I have two final points. We know how important jobs are yet the Minister for Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation is not a member of the ministerial task force. At this moment, An Bord Pleanála is hearing an application for planning permission in regard to the Clerys site. This is an opportunity to lay down a marker, that any development of that kind should have a community or social clause in it that will provide community gain and that there will be an aspect regarding local employment and training. That is recommended on page 35 of the report. If it continues as the Taoiseach has outlined, the community will not be satisfied with being told what is best for it by statutory people. It knows what is best for it. I would urge the Taoiseach to have that meeting with the conveners as soon as possible.

The Taoiseach

The report was produced based on contributions from the community itself, both at meetings in the north inner city in direct discussion with Kieran Mulvey when he was preparing the report, and in its own evidence given to me in Government Buildings on a number of occasions. I would remind Deputy O'Sullivan that in respect of housing, which she mentioned, the north and south inner city housing plans include €30 million for the regeneration of Dominick Street and €27 million for the regeneration of St. Teresa's Gardens. There is also the new multi-million euro plan to develop O'Devaney gardens and a lot of other support for investment in community supports and housing.

The setting up of an office in the north inner city is not about having statutory people removed from the community. It is for the community to be in there, to be involved and to ask what is happening with project X or project Y in their location so that everybody understands that both the moneys that are being continued and the new moneys that are being invested are for regeneration for the people of the area and that it is not just a case of outsiders moving in and telling the community to do this or that.

All aspects of this report came from people in that locality themselves. They said that this was what they wanted for their area and asked how best they could implement it. It is under way. I will meet them but I want to have the office set up and I want to have the system in place. Then we can talk about possible greater community representation but believe me, the consultation and the opportunity for community involvement will be there on a constant basis because there will be an office in the north inner city.