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Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 5 Apr 2017

Vol. 945 No. 3

Topical Issue Debate

Vaccination Programme

I consider this a very important issue in light of the World Health Organization's warning last week about the drop in MMR vaccination rates across Europe and large outbreaks of measles happening across the Continent. The greatest numbers are being seen in Italy and Romania. In light of Brexit, it is important to point out that viruses are not in any way aware of borders. It is important we have good vaccination policy in this country.

There is a responsibility on us as elected members to dispel some of the myths that are out there. We are what has been described as a post-knowledge economy. There is much information available to us but we are seeing the work of someone on Wikipedia having the same status as information and science from a reputable agency. There is a rise in populism and emerging mistrust of scientific facts. We have excellent research in Ireland and across Europe. It is worth noting that a significant amount of taxpayers' money is spent in this country and in Europe on scientific research. There seems to be an issue with disseminating the information from the scientific and research field to the public. It is our duty as elected representatives as well as that of those in the Department of Health to try to get the message out.

It is funny to hear of ridiculous studies in some publications that outline the positive effects of red wine, chocolate or sex on one's longevity when real scientific facts and strong scientific data that have been peer reviewed and assessed as being fact seem to be lost. Vaccinations prevent many diseases. Notably, these days the issues surround the MMR vaccine, which I am referring to specifically today, as well as other vaccines such as the human papillomavirus, HPV, vaccine. On measles, we need approximately 95% coverage to get what is called herd immunity. If we start to drop below that level, we will get measles outbreaks. We spend much time in this Chamber discussing issues such as waiting lists and hospital bed waits but, if we have a measles outbreak in Ireland, we will have something far more serious than capacity in our health service on our hands. Anyone who was around when measles were around knows that it can cause deafness, blindness and death. It is a very serious illness. Over the passage of time, sometimes people forget how serious are these issues.

Back in the day, in 1796, which was 220 years ago, Edward Jenner took from cattle the cowpox vaccine and started to give it to humans. This was deemed heresy and there were cartoons published at the time depicting people with animal heads. In my view, we are kind of heading back to that situation, so it is important that we as elected representatives and the Department do not lionise ignorance or applaud conspiracy theories that would do anything to harm public health.

I thank Deputy O’Connell for raising this extremely important issue and giving me the opportunity to update the House on the matter. I am taking this on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris.

The announcement by the World Health Organization concerning the increase in measles outbreaks in Europe has brought this issue to the attention of the media and the wider public. However, we were already aware of the issue and had been taking appropriate response measures. The European Centres for Disease Prevention and Control, ECDC, issued a rapid risk assessment concerning the risk of spread of measles and sustained transmission in EU countries related to an ongoing outbreak in Romania on 3 March 2017. It noted measles outbreaks in a number of EU countries in 2016 and the continued increase in the number of cases this year. It also noted that outbreaks in three other EU countries have been linked to the current one in Romania.

Actions have been taken at both EU and national level. The EU Health Security Committee met on 10 March to discuss the outbreaks and to ensure a co-ordinated response across member states. The ECDC continues to monitor the situation and can provide technical assistance to the member states if needed. The health system in Ireland is aware of the outbreak and has put in place measures to identify any threat and treat any cases.

The HSE health protection surveillance centre circulated an update on 28 March to departments of public health as well as general practitioners, consultants in infectious diseases, emergency medicine and microbiology and other health professionals. This notification provided an update on the risk of measles in Europe and the risk of importation into Ireland, and reminded health professionals of what to do if they encounter suspected cases of measles.

The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control's rapid risk assessment noted that immunisation is the only effective preventative measure against acquiring measles. Immunisation against measles was introduced in Ireland in 1985 and from 1988 onwards, the MMR vaccine was used to replace the single measles vaccine. The vaccine is included in the primary childhood immunisation programme, with the first dose given at 12 months and the second dose given at between four and five years of age. It can also be given at any age to those who need it for travel for work or to protect vulnerable children or adults.

Immunisation rates in Ireland remain high. Vaccination rates for MMR at 24 months were 93% in 2015 and have been above 90% since 2008. I note the Deputy's point in this regard. The MMR vaccination rate is slightly lower than 95%, standing at 92% in the third quarter of 2015. Vaccination rates fell when links between MMR and autism were first reported in the 1990s. At that time, people falsely linked the development of autism with MMR but, as the Deputy noted, these claims have been fully discredited.

More than 500 million doses of MMR have been used in more than 90 countries around the world since the early 1970s. The World Health Organization recognises MMR as a highly effective vaccine with an outstanding safety record. Although uptake rates are high, we must not be complacent. A number of imported cases of measles were recorded in Ireland last year. The only protection against the condition is vaccination and I encourage all children, teenagers and young adults who have not been immunised with MMR to protect themselves by getting this important vaccine. I concur with Deputy O'Connell that all public representatives must play their part in ensuring people get this message.

The Minister of State's reply was reassuring, although I am concerned that the vaccination rate stands at 92%. We will be in serious trouble if it falls much further.

Andrew Wakefield, a discredited doctor, is taking part in a roadshow that will soon visit this country. It is important that a message is sent to parents that the study carried out by this individual was completely discredited and he was struck off the register of medical practitioners in the United Kingdom. Mr. Wakefield is due to visit Ireland on tour with his anti-vaccine story. These anti-vaccine campaigners prey on vulnerable people and public concerns. Clearly, no one wants to give a child anything that is perceived as doing harm. It is important that public representatives and the Department of Health get the message across to parents that the individual in question, who bizarrely continues to use his title, has been discredited. I thought witch doctors and magic spells had gone out with the Dark Ages.

We must work hard to increase the MMR vaccination rate to 95% because if it falls much further from the current rate of 92%, the concept of herd immunity will be lost and we and the rest of Europe will have a problem with the spread of infectious diseases. As the Minister stated, the way to deal with the problem is to vaccinate children.

We must counter any suggestions by doctors, particularly those who have been discredited, that the MMR vaccine is harmful. Last year's outbreak, when almost 50 cases of measles were recorded in May and June, demonstrates the need to continue to send out a message on this issue and try to increase the MMR vaccination rate to 95% or higher. In that regard, the Health Service Executive continues to try to increase all vaccination rates, including MMR. Ongoing training is provided for health professions and meetings take place with key stakeholders, including the Department of Education and Skills and school management bodies. Articles have been placed in magazines directed at parents and various health professions. Specifically on MMR, letters have been sent to all language and summer schools as well as the Central Applications Office highlighting measles outbreaks in Europe and the importance of the MMR vaccination. Activities are also planned for European immunisation week, which runs from 24 until 30 April, to highlight measles outbreaks in Europe and the importance of the vaccination. Significant work remains to be done in this matter on which we must not become complacent. I thank Deputy O'Connell again for raising this matter.

Irish Prisoners Abroad

I thank the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, Deputy Charlie Flanagan, for coming to the House to discuss this issue, which I also raised yesterday on the Order of Business, namely, the continued detention of Ibrahim Halawa in Egypt without any sign that his trial will be finalised. In early January, I joined a delegation led by the Ceann Comhairle which visited Ibrahim Halawa in prison in Egypt. At that time, Mr. Halawa had been going on and off hunger strike. All members of the delegation strongly advised him not to do so but his actions in this regard were born of despair.

I thank and commend our ambassador to Egypt, Damien Cole, and his team in Cairo on the work they are doing. I also commend the Minister and his staff on their efforts. This is a humanitarian rather than political issue on which all of us must work together to achieve a resolution.

I am concerned for Ibrahim Halawa, a young man who has spent more than three years in prison and whose trials has been delayed or adjourned 20 times. Mr. Halawa's trial is due to recommence on 6 April. I have learned from contact with his family that his physical and mental health are deteriorating. I hope the Minister is in a position to provide an update on his health without breaching confidence. I understand an independent medical assessment of his condition was carried out by an Irish doctor with the assistance of the Department. While we were in Cairo, a doctor visited Mr. Halawa and carried out some rudimentary tests and we requested that an electrocardiogram be performed. I ask the Minister to provide an update on what action is being taken in this case. I also urge the Government to insist to the Egyptian authorities that Mr. Halawa is released on humanitarian grounds without further delay.

I am very frustrated about the case of Ibrahim Halawa. The Taoiseach, in reply to a question from Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett yesterday, indicated he had written to President el-Sisi of Egypt. President el-Sisi's statement that he cannot release people before their trial is a lie. Some 200 young students were released by the el-Sisi government shortly before Christmas. At that time, we pleaded with the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade to appeal for Ibrahim Halawi's release under the same programme. It is not true, therefore, that President el-Sisi cannot release Mr. Halawi.

I will focus on an entirely different aspect of the case. The European neighbourhood instrument is an EU programme under which Egypt has received €320 million to date from Europe. Ireland makes a financial contribution to this programme, the purpose of which is to promote human rights and fundamental freedoms such as the freedom of association and assembly. What the hell are we giving money to Egypt under this programme for when the country has interned an extremely ill young Irishman without trial? Mr. Halawi's trial is due to start again for the 21st time today.

In addition to giving it money, we are promoting a beef trade with Egypt. Live cattle exports to the country resumed for the first time in 17 years after the Minister's visit to Egypt. The trade is worth approximately €40 million and is expected to rise in value to €200 million. Is the export of beef more important than this young man's life? Why are we using the European neighbourhood instrument, under which the EU provides money to Egypt for human rights, under false pretences? Why are we exporting beef to Egypt in the hope of making substantial profits for big ranchers and sacrificing Ibrahim Halawa on the altar of profit? I ask the Minister to address those questions.

This long-running and complex consular case continues to be a top priority for the Government and substantial resources and time are being devoted to it not only by myself, but by the Taoiseach, Ministers, officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs, by our ambassador and his team in Cairo, and the entire Irish diplomatic network. Last Monday, the Taoiseach renewed his appeal to the Egyptian President to release its Irish citizen and return him to Ireland without delay. This is the Government’s objective, and we are working day in and day out to seek to secure that outcome.

lbrahim Halawa was back in court today for the latest hearing in the case in which he is a defendant along with more than 400 other accused persons. Our embassy officials were at the court to observe proceedings, as they have been at every hearing in the case to date and before coming to the Chamber, I received a report on the case. Some progress was made today as 11 more witnesses gave evidence. At the end of the hearing, Ibrahim's lawyers requested his release on medical grounds and the judge undertook to examine the matter. I very much welcome that development. The next hearing in the case will take place on 26 April.

My Government colleagues and I have been disappointed and frustrated by the slow progress in the court case. Recent hearings, however, have generally been more substantive, with witnesses called and cross-examined, giving rise to cautious optimism that the trial may now, at last, be moving towards a conclusion. This is crucially important because, as Deputies will be aware, particularly those who visited Cairo earlier in the year, the Egyptian authorities have consistently said that they cannot intervene in a matter that is before the courts, and that this issue can only be resolved after the trial concludes.

This complex and sensitive consular case has been a priority matter for me since my appointment as Minister. No stone has been left unturned by the Government and our diplomatic service in our efforts to secure Ibrahim's release and his return to Ireland to his family and, indeed, to resume his studies. Our embassy in Cairo has dedicated exceptional work to this case with an unprecedented number of prison visits to ensure his health and welfare is monitored and that any concerns are immediately followed up in an appropriate and proper manner. Reports about lbrahim Halawa's health are a matter of the utmost concern for me and my Government colleagues. In light of these concerns the Government took the unprecedented step last week of making arrangements for an Irish medical doctor, nominated by the Chief Medical Officer in the Department of Health, to visit Ibrahim in prison and to undertake an assessment of his health. The doctor also had an opportunity to speak with Ibrahim at length. The Egyptian authorities have a clear responsibility to ensure the health and welfare of Ibrahim Halawa. The Government and the Department have consistently underlined this in all contacts with Egyptian interlocutors. Ireland's embassy in Cairo is maintaining ongoing contact with the Egyptian authorities on issues relating to Ibrahim’s welfare and health.

I have raised these issues repeatedly with Egyptian counterparts, including in a further recent face-to-face meeting with Egyptian Foreign Minister Shoukry. I am concerned at persistent reports that lbrahim Halawa is on hunger strike. I urge him in the strongest terms not to pursue such a course of action, and to protect his health in every way. I also urge all parties who are in contact with him or who have influence with him to dissuade him from any actions that would be detrimental to his health. In this regard, I welcome Deputy O'Brien's comments. The Department maintains open lines of communication with the Halawa family and has been keeping family members fully informed of all developments and updates received from the Egyptian authorities. The most recent face-to-face meeting between family representatives and officers from the Department was on Monday, 3 April. I assure the House that we will continue to keep pressure on Egypt until we see the release and return home of Ibrahim Halawa.

I thank the Minister for his response and update. When I met Ibrahim, and in correspondence since, I assured him, as others did, that we will not forget about him and we will not give up until we get him home. How we approach this is important. While I do not doubt anyone's bona fides and that everyone cares about his situation, some of the comments that have been made from time to time have done more damage than good to him. People should be aware of that and should temper their remarks in that regard. They are very aware in Egypt-----

What did I say?

The Deputy knows what. I genuinely believe what she said is most unhelpful.

The Deputy has only 20 seconds.

What comment did I make?

Deputy Smith will have a minute to contribute.

Deputy O'Brien has to answer my question.

I do not have to answer the Deputy at all. My concern, and the concern of all us in the House, should be to get Ibrahim home. What is the next step? The Minister mentioned his recent meeting with Foreign Minister Shoukry and the Taoiseach has written directly to President el-Sisi. Is another call lined up? Will there be further visits? I am heartened to some degree that the length of the adjournment between trial sittings has shortened and more witnesses are being heard. All of us want him released and returned home today. Deputy Smith and others can take what they want from my comments.

Perhaps the Deputy would like to clarify personally to me by e-mail what comments I made that are damaging to Ibrahim Halawa and his family.

I will tell the Deputy outside.

Deputy Smith, without interruption.

We have a history of hunger strikes in this country going back to the fight for independence. Nobody goes on hunger strike unless he or she is utterly driven to it by frustration and is left with no other choice. That is why this young man has gone on hunger strike. For almost four years, we have been polite and nice, praising the ambassador and President el-Sisi's Government and telling them how wonderful they are without any result. I have every right to raise the question of the influence of economics on political decisions. It is a political decision to be nice to the Egyptian Government instead of telling them like the Australian Government did, "You do not do this to our citizen; we will not tolerate it". That is the attitude the Government needs to take. Ibrahim also suffers from a dangerous illness called Leishmaniasis, which kills 2 million people a year globally. It is spread through overpopulation in places like prisons and places which are poorly sanitised. He needs to be released and, although the doctor sent by the Minister to examine him has made a recommendation that he be released on humanitarian grounds, we are told the judge is considering it. We need more than consideration; we need this young man released, looked after medically and returned home.

I thank the Deputies for raising this issue and for providing me with an opportunity to update the House on what is a priority consular case in my Department. I assure Members that the Government continues to do everything it can to ensure the authorities in Egypt are in absolutely no doubt about our determination to see this young man returned to his home and family. There is no question of the Government or, indeed, this House forgetting about or neglecting the welfare and health of our citizen. It is my solemn duty as Minister to be responsible for the health and welfare of our citizens abroad. No consular case is receiving the type of engagement Ibrahim Halawa's case is.

However, the Egyptian authorities continue to detain our citizen, and only they can make a decision to facilitate his return home. I assure the Deputies that we will continue at every level to do everything possible and appropriate to apply pressure on Cairo on behalf of our citizen and also through our contacts with international colleagues and the EU. Only last Monday, I addressed this issue with EU High Representative Mogherini and the Secretary General of the League of Arab States, Mr. Aboul-Gheit. Our embassy will continue to follow up thoroughly on all the issues to ensure Ibrahim's health and welfare are looked after. I reiterate my appeal to him to take food and nourishment. I assure the House we are active on the matter of the independent medical report which was undertaken, received and is now being acted upon at the highest level.

In response to Deputy O'Brien, I expect over the next few days to have a further conversation with my Egyptian counterpart, Foreign Minister Shoukry. In the meantime, the Government continues to provide extensive consular support in the case. I wish to again underline the fact that the Department remains in close contact with both the Halawa family and the citizen's legal representatives.

Early Childhood Care and Education Funding

I thank the Minister for being here to take this Topical Issue matter. In February, Deputy Donnchadh Ó Laoghaire, Deputy Mick Barry, Deputy Micheál Martin, Deputy Billy Kelleher, I and others attended a presentation by the Cork Early Years Alliance. It was a very powerful presentation. On a visit to Cork, the Minister had an opportunity to meet with some members of the alliance. It was a stark and frightening presentation. The alliance informed us of the services being provided by 13 different member organisations in terms of early years care for children up to the age of three. There are 348 children in Cork receiving a service from 13 different organisations. These areas have significant disadvantage and in many cases the children involved have complex needs. We are told by the alliance that 233 of these children will lose a service by September. The critical immediate issue is the emergency funding promised by the Minister's Department in respect of the change in the regulations around the qualifications required by the child care workers who are in these services. That is the key immediate issue. I will come back on the long-term issues in a moment.

It was a very stark presentation. I have raised this issue with the Minister previously. I thank her for her presence. There are 13 services looking at potentially closing in September 2018 and seven of those are concerned they will have to close this September. They offer a vitally important service to children aged from naught to three years. It is at that age that early intervention is most crucial and makes the most difference. I anticipate the Minister will say she announced €1 million in sustainability funding, which is welcome. There are longer term issues.

On the €1 million funding, the latest position is that services received contracts on 24 March and were asked to return them. They were asked the same thing and received the same forms well over a month ago. This funding was announced back in January and February at the latest. The services have not been in a position to draw down any of that funding. The services have had to borrow, use their own savings and come up with all sorts of arrangements just to keep the thing on the road. They need to be able to access, in the first instance, the funding that has been committed to but which they cannot get their hands on. That is the most crucial issue to ensure these are sustainable even into the summer.

We are talking about 13 not-for-profit community crèches here. There are 87 jobs at stake and 349 children involved: 44% of those children come from one-parent families; 73% come from families that can only continue on the basis of State income support; and 33% have specific disadvantage. The demands of the campaigners are straightforward. Apart from the emergency funding already mentioned there are three demands. First, the universal payment per child per hour should increase from €4.60 to €9.20, that is, it should be doubled. Second, there should be additional staff grants. Third, their work should be recognised not just in terms of value for labour activation but in terms of what it is, that is crucial early years intervention. I would like the Minister to comment on those demands from these campaigners who provide such a vital service within these communities.

I thank the Corkmen. Child care in Ireland is changing, and changing forever. Sustainable community services have a place in our ambitious plans. There should be no doubt about that. Services in Cork city have been proactive in producing research that makes clear the unique benefits of high quality care and education for children living in areas of urban disadvantage and elsewhere. This research is an important part of the long overdue national debate on child care, which is now under way. When I visited Togher in Cork six weeks ago, I met representatives of the community sector. As someone who has campaigned and worked in this area for over three decades, I could immediately identify with the challenges they face. It was a productive discussion with a sharing of information and views. The providers are also in regular contact with my Department.

The challenges which have been identified are not unique. They are issues that were raised by community providers in my constituency in Dublin South-West and by community and other providers last weekend when I attended and addressed the Early Childhood Ireland conference. I assure Deputies we are aware of the concerns and are taking action. Commitment and passion for child care is admirable but it is not enough if we are serious about child safety, as I am. Training, education and qualifications are needed so parents can be confident their child is being looked after in safety. Some community services, including in Cork, were impacted by recent changes in regulations. The rules were changed to prevent an over-reliance on community employment scheme participants who did not hold qualifications in child care. I accept this has caused short-term difficulties and my Department has now concluded arrangements for up to €1 million of additional funding to be made to these services. The first payments under this programme will be received by services this week, including in five Cork services.

My Department is in the process of securing the assistance of expert financial analysts to undertake work with services to assist them with assessing their sustainability. This work will link with the programme for Government commitment to conduct and publish an independent review of the cost of providing quality child care in Ireland. This commitment aligns closely with the work on the development of the affordable childcare scheme, including options for further development of the scheme over time. Initial scoping work on the independent review is being progressed in that context.

The independent review is a priority action for my Department in 2017. The affordable childcare scheme will deliver significantly increased rates of subvention to the most disadvantaged families. This scheme will lift the barrier that prevents parents from taking up offers of work, training and education because they cannot afford child care. Deputies will be aware that this is an ambitious task. We also have to get the IT systems right which will require more work. My officials are examining how parents and community child care services will benefit from the additional investment I obtained in budget 2017 for September. I hope to update Deputies in that regard in the very near future.

In budget 2017, I was pleased to secure €14.5 million to help ease the burden of administration on child care providers by paying for non-contact time on top of existing payments. Providers will receive payments this summer. Community child care services that provide the various funding schemes operated by my Department will receive payments. The average ECCE service with 25 children will receive approximately an additional €2,200. My Department and its agents, Pobal and the 30 city and county childcare committees work closely with services that are experiencing financial difficulty offering a range of supports and expertise.

I will continue to keep in contact with community services regarding the challenges they face. My officials are also working with Tusla, the Child and Family Agency, and other support services, to ensure we have the proper funding and supports in place for children and families to ensure that community child care providers can provide their unique role in our communities.

I thank the Minister for her reply. I think she appreciates how vital these services are. The reality is that without them many of those children will be completely left behind by our society. They are in areas of disadvantage and many of the children have complex needs, including special needs and issues in terms of the home environment and so on. That is the reality. I think the Minister appreciates that.

I welcome that the first payments are being issued this week. Can the Minister give a commitment that all relevant payments will be issued immediately on receipt of contracts? As Deputy Ó Laoghaire said, the contracts have been submitted by the Cork providers. More fundamentally, when will the overall independent review be completed by? The emergency funding is a stopgap. It will probably get them to September. We are being told by these providers that seven of them are in grave danger. They are at imminent risk of closure in the autumn. It is not a position we can stand over.

Please, work with the providers on these issues in a genuine spirit of co-operation and ensure that their funding is on a sustainable footing so that these crucial services are maintained into the future.

I thank the Minister. I recognise that she has a long and well-known background in early years services dating back to An Cosán.

There are two major parts - the short and long terms - to this issue. In the short term, we were trying to address the urgent matter of access to funding. A commitment was made in that regard. I welcome that some of that funding will come on stream this week and I hope the remainder of the services, not only in Cork but nationally, will see it entering their accounts in the coming week. However, the longer term issue remains. I hope the Minister takes account of the research conducted in Cork by various organisations and ensures that this matter is resolved on an ongoing basis. Some services will not benefit from the funding, including one in Cork that deals primarily with Travellers and has no entitlement to sustainability funding because it was not reliant on community employment, CE, schemes to that extent. A number of such community services will need additional subventions on an ongoing basis. I hope the Minister will commit to keeping an eye on this matter.

I have three points. The first payments under this programme will be received by services this week, including five in Cork. Better late than never, I suppose, and it is welcome news, but what of the others? Will they receive their money by Easter or by the end of April? I am referring to centres that have submitted all of the paperwork and are just waiting for what they were promised and what has been announced in no fewer than three separate press statements to the Evening Echo.

I asked the Minister three questions about the demands of the campaigners, but she did not reply. Could she reply to this supplementary question?

The Minister referred to qualifications, which are important. Qualified staff should be well paid, but the average pay for child care professionals is €10.26 per hour. I support the Big Start campaign's call for €15 per hour. Will the Minister comment on the issues of low pay among these professionals and increase the rate to €15?

I might begin with Deputy Barry's questions on the campaigners' call for the universal payment to be doubled. I would love to see that, but it will require significant additional investment. I have indicated that I am committed to doing that in the next budget. I achieved a significant increase in investment for this year and am looking for something similar in 2018. We are far behind where we want to be in terms of Government investment in child care. That happened as a result of how recent Governments responded to this issue. I anticipate that Deputies will support the request for additional investment in September as I work on budget 2018. That is how we will increase the universal payment.

As to an additional staff grant, we are examining that issue in the context of assigning financial analysts to work one-on-one with services with a view to assessing their business models and their requests for money or more staff supports to provide child care in light of levels of need in their respective areas.

I acknowledge the commitment to the early years sector to which Deputy Ó Laoghaire referred. I understand that the grants are taking a while. That is disappointing, but they are coming. As I indicated, money is being made available and financial analysts to work directly with those services that need them will be appointed. We will provide non-contact time grants again, probably this June. Those are additional moneys. We hope to progress our independent review in 2017.

Community Employment Schemes Review

I welcome the opportunity to discuss this matter with the Minister. I have met him and his officials regarding it a couple of times. I thank them for giving of their time over the past year or more. It was one of the first issues I raised when I first joined the Dáil. I did so because of the importance of such schemes to individuals and communities, not just in my constituency of Kildare North, but elsewhere. This is a problem nationally, as I am sure the Minister is aware. It has also been raised by my colleagues, Deputies O'Dea and Ó Cuív.

We must examine the current Tús schemes and I want to determine with the Minister how their timeframes can be extended in certain circumstances. This matter is included in the programme for Government, which is welcome. The intention of these schemes is to reintroduce people to full and gainful employment. Unfortunately, that is not the outcome, and may never be, for all participants. We must focus on delivering improvements in that regard.

The system is not working well. Participants on Tús schemes are carrying out valuable work for their communities. The difficulty is that, although they must leave the schemes after a year, no one is coming through to replace them and allow their work to continue and their communities and hosts - football clubs, soccer clubs, athletics clubs, etc. - to gain. This problem is having a negative effect on participants, communities and groups. Participants are engaging in JobPath schemes and the like because they are not able to continue with Tús.

Will the Minister extend the Tús schemes for people in particular age brackets who know that, realistically, they will not be able to return to full-time employment but who nevertheless provide a much-valued social contribution to their schemes and communities? That contribution needs to be extended. I am unsure as to whether the problem in this regard is that unemployment is decreasing and people are not coming through or whether there is an issue with getting on lists, but the lists are not coming through. I engage with the hosts and scheme administrators on the ground. They are not getting the lists or a continuity of people, which has a detrimental effect on everyone involved.

Given the age profile in question - over 55, 57 or 60 years, for example - we need to consider extending the schemes for these individuals. The schemes have brought benefits and advantages, but they need to be reviewed in certain areas in order to help their participants. The current system is not working because of a major issue. If it is not addressed, I would be concerned for all involved. Some schemes have no participants. The main sufferers of that are the communities, groups and those participants who had to leave their schemes.

I thank Deputy O'Rourke for raising this important issue. Community employment and Tús are part of my Department's range of programmes and schemes, catering for long-term unemployed jobseekers and those most distant from the labour market. They are designed to break the cycle of unemployment and maintain work readiness, thereby improving a person's opportunities of returning to the labour market or getting a job for the first time.

Employment programmes also support the delivery of vital services in local communities. The programmes deliver on two levels. First, they provide a person who is unemployed with the opportunity of work experience and a chance to develop new skills to prepare him or her for employment in the open labour market. Second, they play a very important role in augmenting service delivery to local communities in key areas such as child care, health and social care, drug rehabilitation and local amenities. All areas of the country have benefitted from these programmes. I have seen this first-hand over the past few months when I visited various schemes throughout the country and I know it from my experience in my constituency down through the years.

As the economic recovery takes hold and the overall level of unemployment continues to fall - it is almost one third of what it was a few years ago - the need to adapt employment programmes to the changing circumstances and the needs of jobseekers has become more apparent and urgent. With this in mind, my Department undertook an analysis of the CE programme. While the primary focus was on CE, the review also looked at other employment programmes such as Tús and Gateway. The report made a number of recommendations in regard to the operation of these schemes. As the Deputy may be aware, I recently brought a memorandum on the programmes to Government and I obtained approval to publish the review report and to progress its various recommendations. I intend to publish the report in the next few days.

As part of the implementation of new measures, my Department will be consulting with key stakeholders, such as supervisors and providers, in the coming weeks and implementation of the new measures will commence thereafter. The nature and format of the consultation process is being finalised by my Department officials. I assure the Deputy that the work being done through programmes like CE and Tús is highly valued and recognised by Government. It is work that has to be done and we need to ensure there are people available to do it. I believe the changes to be made over the coming months will strengthen the schemes, widen the range and pool of people who can take part and help to ensure they continue to support people who are long-term unemployed to gain valuable skills and experience while continuing to support the delivery of community services.

I thank the Minister for his reply. The Minister is correct that the motivation of these schemes is to help people back into full time employment and in that regard they are succeeding. However, currently there are many schemes with no participants. I would like to know the reason there are no participants on some schemes and what can be done to encourage greater participation in schemes. Is this because more people are being employed or because of a lack of throughput of lists? I am not here to criticise the system in overall terms but if the schemes are to work as effectively as we would all like then it is important that when one participant finishes he or she is replaced within a few days to ensure continuity in the system for participants and communities but that is not happening. I can bring the Minister to a host of schemes in Naas, Kilcock, Maynooth, Celbridge, Leixlip and Clane that are suffering because of a lack of participants. There are massive gaps between one participant finishing on a scheme and another starting, if at all.

There is another problem in regard to JobPath. Many people take up places in Tús while awaiting a place on JobPath. These people are required to meet once a week with a case officer who helps them to get back into full time employment. Many of these people, because of their age profile, may not get back into full time employment. If such people were allowed to remain on a Tús scheme and continue to meet with their case supervisor on a regular basis in relation to obtaining full time employment this would ensure that the Tús scheme and community could still avail of and benefit from their input.

In regard to the CE scheme, I know people who were earmarked for CE schemes but had to take up positions on JobPath because of a delay in the commencement of the CE scheme. If two or three weeks after these people took up positions on JobPath the vacancies arose for which they were earmarked and all involved wanted them to do, including their case officers, supervisors etc., they could not take them up because they were required to complete their time on the JobPath scheme. They are now locked into the JobPath scheme for a year. There are very restrictive practices around these schemes that need to be reviewed.

Nobody is taken off CE or Tús to participate in JobPath. We do not allow people who have been referred to JobPath to chop and change from one scheme or programme to another. We have never allowed that and we do not propose to do so. A participant in a programme or scheme should complete it. For all sorts of reasons we do not want people changing mid-stream from one scheme or programme to another. A person who is referred to JobPath, who has a start date for commencement on Tús or CE within four weeks, is not required to take up the place on JobPath. If the timeframe in regard to participation in the Tús or CE is more than four weeks he or she is required to take up the JobPath position. What has happened is pretty straightforward. We had approximately 25,000 places on CE schemes. This was increased to 30,000 plus places. Tús was then introduced, followed by Gateway, JobBridge and JobPath. Unemployment has since decreased by two thirds. It is not surprising that there is a mismatch between the number of schemes and programmes available and the number of people available to participate in them. The numbers are slowly being pared back following the withdrawal of JobBridge and the phasing out of Gateway. Because CE and Tús provide vital work on the ground that needs to be done and because of their important social inclusion role, we do not want them to be unable to fill their places, as is currently the case. There are a number of things that I propose to do. I intend to widen the pool of people who are available by reducing the age limit to bring in more younger workers. I will have to think long and hard about what to do for older workers. I also propose to allow people to remain on a scheme for more than a year if they are doing a qualification. We need to do better. When people have completed a year on JobPath they should be referred almost immediately to CE or Tús. A person who has spent a year working with JobPath and has not found a job - most people do not find a job having spent a year on JobPath - is a perfect candidate for Tús and CE, in my view. I do not know why the lists are not being referred on. I acknowledge there is a problem in that regard.

I also intend to review the top-up paid to people who participate in CE or Tús. If one includes lone parents, people with disabilities and so on, there are more than 100,000 people who are eligible for Tús and CE. The top-up is only €22.50 and that is not enough. When account is taken of the cost of lunch, transport and so on a person might be worse off for participating in one of these schemes. I propose to look at that issue in the context of the budget. In the next few days, I propose to announce a relaxing of the rules in terms of who can participate. I am not closed to going further if that does not work.

Sitting suspended at 4.40 p.m. and resumed at 5.20 p.m.
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