Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 11 Apr 2017

Vol. 946 No. 2

Reform of An Garda Síochána: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

notes that:

- members of An Garda Síochána play a hugely important role in Irish society and that public trust and confidence are crucial elements of effective policing;

- there is an immediate need to reassure the public that urgent action will be taken to implement real reform, cultural change and oversight of the management of An Garda Síochána;

- the final report of the Fennelly Commission of Investigation (Certain Matters Relative to An Garda Síochána and other persons) has been published and its findings are alarming;

- accountability structures within An Garda Síochána are inadequate and need to be strengthened and made more transparent so that there is real accountability for Garda wrongdoing and-or mistakes;

- section 11(1) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005 stipulates that a person who holds the office of Garda Commissioner can only be removed from office by the Government for stated reasons, including where the person’s removal from office would in the Government’s opinion be in the best interests of An Garda Síochána; and

- section 11(2) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005, as amended by the Garda Síochána Policing Authority Act 2015, provides an important and unique role for the Policing Authority in respect of the person who holds the office of the Garda Commissioner;

condemns that:

- there were 146,865 District Court summonses for road traffic offences wrongly issued and that 14,700 convictions were wrongly imposed upon members of the public as a result of shameful errors by An Garda Síochána;

- there were 937,000 breath tests that never occurred but which were falsely, and probably dishonestly, recorded by members of An Garda Síochána on the Police Using Leading Systems Effectively, PULSE, system as a result of deplorable wrongdoing by An Garda Síochána;

- the members of the public who were wrongly convicted were not informed directly by An Garda Síochána or any other agency of the State about their wrongful convictions, notwithstanding the fact that An Garda Síochána and the State were aware from July 2016 that members of the public had been wrongly convicted of these offences;

- An Garda Síochána was notified of discrepancies in its breath test data by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety in 2014, by an audit in its southern region in 2015, and by a national audit that commenced in 2016, which revealed in 2016 that its data could not be reconciled, but did not inform the public or the Policing Authority of these discrepancies until its press conference on 23 March 2017; and

- there has been a lack of progress in implementing reforms recommended by several Garda Inspectorate reports;

acknowledges that:

- the Garda Commissioner has accepted that An Garda Síochána recorded numbers that were false and, that this was at worst deception and at best incompetence, but either way it was individually and organisationally shameful;

- the Garda Commissioner believes that this falsification may not be confined to traffic data and that there may be more revelations;

- such dishonest and unethical behaviour by An Garda Síochána is totally unacceptable;

- these revelations have raised very serious issues about the management of An Garda Síochána;

- there is increasing public concern and diminishing public confidence in the management of An Garda Síochána;

- there is increasing public concern and diminishing public confidence in the administration, direction and supervision of An Garda Síochána;

- there is an urgent need to strengthen the management of An Garda Síochána;

- there is an urgent need to strengthen the oversight of An Garda Síochána; and

- there is a radical need to provide for ongoing professional development to ensure that members of An Garda Síochána are trained for the challenges posed by policing in the 21st century;

calls for:

- the Government to take immediate steps to rectify this real and substantial crisis in confidence in An Garda Síochána;

- the Government to request the Policing Authority to assess the role and capacity of the Garda Commissioner to restore public confidence in An Garda Síochána;

- the Government to empower the Policing Authority so that:

- it will supervise the functioning of the Garda Commissioner’s office and supervise the discharge of these functions by the Commissioner;

- it will oversee the performance by An Garda Síochána of its functions relating to policing services; and

- it can establish and impose policies and reform measures for An Garda Síochána which shall be binding on all members of An Garda Síochána; and

- the implementation of the recommendations of the report of the Fennelly Commission; and

further calls for the Government to establish an independent commission of An Garda Síochána that would examine and report on:

(a) the adequacy and appropriateness of the policies and procedures which underpin the operation and performance of An Garda Síochána;

(b) the full implementation of the Garda Inspectorate reports of 2014 and 2015, within a tight timeframe;

(c) improvements to basic Garda training;

(d) the recruitment of civilians at senior managerial levels of An Garda Síochána;

(e) the recruitment of persons directly at sergeant, inspector or superintendent level;

(f) the introduction of practices to allow gardaí to be promoted internally, without being required to return to uniform duty;

(g) the extent of the responsibilities that the Department of Justice and Equality has for An Garda Síochána and whether this should be reduced;

(h) the separation of security matters from An Garda Síochána;

(i) the strengthening of the role of the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission;

(j) the ongoing training of members of An Garda Síochána on basic core skills of ethical policing;

(k) improvements to professional development and progression within the force; and

(l) the introduction of a professional development structure that would allow better supervisory mechanisms and more accountable management structures to be put in place in order to improve Garda services to citizens, boost morale and build up public trust and confidence.

I wish to share my time with Deputies John Curran, John McGuinness and James Lawless.

On 23 March 2017, some 19 days ago, members of An Garda Síochána held a press conference in Dublin at which they informed the public of two extraordinary pieces of information. First, they informed the Irish people that between the years 2006 and 2016, some 14,700 wrongful convictions had been secured in the District Court as a result of errors made by An Garda Síochána. Those individuals had been convicted, and they should not have been convicted because they either never received a fixed-charge notice in the post or they received a fixed-charge notice and had paid it. Nonetheless, they were wrongful convictions and the only explanation that could be given by An Garda Síochána at the press conference was that this was caused through an error in the manner in which gardaí processed the cases.

The second piece of information was equally extraordinary. They announced that between November 2011 and November 2016 the Garda falsely recorded 937,000 breath tests on the Garda PULSE system. We know from that period that, in fact, only 1 million breath tests took place, but the Garda stated that there were 1.9 million tests recorded on the PULSE database. When asked at the press conference for the explanation for this, the Garda representatives said that there was no single reason that may account for the discrepancy.

That evening, Fianna Fáil issued a statement in which we said that the announcement by An Garda Síochána was scandalous and that we required answers as to why there were 937,000 breath tests falsely recorded and why there were 14,700 wrongful convictions. As a result of our intervention, the Garda Commissioner issued a statement on Saturday. After that, the Commissioner and other senior members of An Garda Síochána held a press conference on the following Monday. Thereafter, the Commissioner and her senior management attended a hearing of the Oireachtas Joint Committee on Justice and Equality on 30 March. I regret to say that throughout all of those public appearances the Garda representatives were not able to give a simple explanation to the people of Ireland as to how and why these extraordinary events took place.

Regarding the 14,700 wrongful convictions, we know that these convictions were made known to An Garda Síochána in July 2016. We know from answers the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality gave to the Dáil on 28 March 2017 that she and her Department became aware of the general fact that there were wrongful convictions - not the numbers of wrongful convictions - in June 2016. It is extraordinary that, to date, those 14,700 wrongful convictions remain on the criminal record books of the State. To date, it appears that nothing has been done to seek to overturn the convictions. I know that most attention has been devoted to the 937,000 false breath tests but I will say it again: it is a blemish on the criminal justice system that we allow these 14,700 wrongful convictions to remain on criminal justice records. As far as I can see, no steps have been taken by anyone, including An Garda Síochána, the Director of Public Prosecutions, the Government or any other entity of the State, to seek to quash these convictions. We have been told that they may be appealed by the prosecuting authorities but we know this is nonsense.

The breath test situation has an extraordinary history. We know that in April 2014 the then Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport contacted the Garda Commissioner and told her there was a complaint about improper activity around the recording of breath tests. We know that in July 2014 the Medical Bureau of Road Safety, of its own accord, contacted An Garda Síochána to tell it that the figures for breath tests were wrong. The bureau pointed out that the Garda figures did not coincide with its figures. We know that between June and November 2015 An Garda Síochána commenced an audit of the southern region which revealed significant discrepancies in breath test figures and that seven months later, in June 2016, the Garda commenced a national audit in respect of the breath tests. By November 2016, the Garda had enough information to prove that it could not reconcile the figures in its paper data with the PULSE data. At that stage, it knew it had a very significant issue. In fact, it must have known about it much earlier. That problem appears to have been solved in November 2016 yet nothing was done to bring it to the attention of the Policing Authority, the Government or to any other entity. There appears to have been a flurry of activity in February 2017. For some reason, and we have looked for answers on this, contact was made by An Garda Síochána with the Medical Bureau of Road Safety some days before 24 February 2017. As a result, the Garda got data from the Medical Bureau of Road Safety. This data indicated to the Garda the full extent of its failings in respect of this issue.

Many answers have not been given and it is important that we find those answers as soon as possible. The motion before the House seeks to identify the seriousness of the issue and to put forward some solutions. It is important to put on the record of the House what has happened. Fianna Fáil's motion recognises that there were 14,700 wrongful convictions as a result of shameful errors by An Garda Síochána. The motion also recognises that there were 937,000 breath tests falsely, and I regret to say probably dishonestly, recorded by the Garda on the PULSE system. The motion further recognises that such dishonest and unethical behaviour by An Garda Síochána is totally unacceptable and that these revelations have raised very serious issues about the management, administration and direction of An Garda Síochána. It also recognises that there is an urgent need to strengthen the management of An Garda Síochána and an urgent need to strengthen the oversight of An Garda Síochána.

The entity in this House that is responsible for issues concerning An Garda Síochána is the Government and the Minister for Justice and Equality. Regrettably, we need further impetus in order to improve An Garda Síochána. The Government must take immediate steps to rectify the crisis of confidence in An Garda Síochána and we believe that the Policing Authority has a crucial role to play in that regard. Since January 2017, the Policing Authority has been given a collaborative role in assessing the capacity of the Garda Commissioner to carry out her functions and her role. Our motion calls on the Government to request the Policing Authority to run and adopt the collaborative approach it has under statute to ensure the capacity of the Garda Commissioner to restore public confidence in An Garda Síochána can be properly assessed. We believe that is the best way to deal with the issues facing An Garda Síochána.

We also recognise that in the past we have always looked at issues involving An Garda Síochána with a rear view mirror to see what happened, be it a scandal or other issues. We need to have a Patten-like commission - Fianna Fáil put forward a proposal for this a number of weeks ago - to try to identify a plan for An Garda Síochána in the 21st century. I am pleased to see that the Government has agreed with that and today has put forward terms of reference upon which Fianna Fail will engage and collaborate with the Government. It is, however, important to have a plan for how we are to improve policing in the State over the next 70 or 80 years. Our motion sets forward a number of requirements that we believe the independent commission should adopt. It needs to look at, examine and report on the adequacy and appropriateness of the policies and procedures that underpin the operation and performance of An Garda Síochána; how we can improve basic Garda training; and the recruitment of civilians at senior, managerial levels of An Garda Síochána and the recruitment of persons directly into senior levels rather than them having to start off at the very bottom rung.

We believe it should examine the role played by the Department of Justice and Equality to see whether some of the functions the Department maintains in respect of the Garda should be transferred to the Policing Authority. We know there are concerns in respect of doing so because of the very sensitive security roles that An Garda Síochána plays. That leads into another suggestion put forward in the motion, that perhaps there should be a separation of security matters from An Garda Síochána. That is an extremely sensitive and important issue and is not something we should rush into, but it is an issue we believe this independent commission should consider. We also believe that ongoing training is needed for members of An Garda Síochána in respect of their basic core skills of ethical policing.

Historically, the people of this country have had a very good relationship with An Garda Síochána. The State has been served well by members of the force. They have given their lives to protect the people of this country. We need to recognise, however, that we are doing a service to the people and to An Garda Síochána by highlighting this issue and seeking to improve it. If we simply ignore it, we will be doing a disservice to An Garda Síochána. It is important that we as public representatives seek to enhance the credibility of the Garda. We want to enhance the confidence of the public in An Garda Síochána. That is the function of the motion.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Eugene Murphy)

Deputies John Curran, John McGuinness and James Lawless are sharing time equally.

Deputy John Curran

In addition to the recent issues raised by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, the breath tests and fixed-charge notices, An Garda Síochána has been dogged by other issues in respect of the Garda whistleblowers and the Fennelly commission. Undoubtedly, that array of issues has undermined confidence in the Garda. Equally importantly, it has affected the morale of those working in the force. It would be remiss of me not to say there are thousands of gardaí who, day in, day out, work hard and diligently, and who are adversely affected by all of these issues. The Minister knows as well as I do from attending community and public events and meeting constituents that nobody speaks more highly of the Garda than members of the public when they are talking about their community gardaí and their interaction with them. The good work that is being done should not be overlooked tonight.

As Deputy Jim O'Callaghan indicated, there are significant governance, oversight and reform issues which need to be addressed. The Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality and the Taoiseach have mentioned on a number of occasions that there is to be a root and branch review. That term has been used extensively. Whatever we call it, it cannot be a top-down approach only. It must be bottom up, starting with the men and women who are serving their communities. They have something important to say. The review must go outside the Phoenix Park. That is a crucial point. I do not have time to go over all the proposals contained in the motion, but they need to be dealt with and in a timely fashion.

I do not want this to sound personal in respect of the Minister, but I need to say it. I believe it was a mistake that she did not attend the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI, conference in Killarney recently. I do so because of the state of crisis and chaos around the Garda - the low morale and confidence issues. The Minister's attendance would have been an opportunity for her to share her vision and direction. After all, it is these men and women who will be charged with managing and operating the front-line services of the Garda in the future. Their annual conference should have been afforded that courtesy. I feel strongly about this matter.

In addition to the changes recommended by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan in his contribution and in our motion, we need to be mindful of the structures that are already there. There is an internal audit unit and a professional standards unit, which should be used to the full. I was slightly concerned when I asked a parliamentary question and got the reply that in 2012, the internal audit unit conducted 29 audits, in 2015 it conducted 13 audits and in 2016 it conducted 15 audits. At a time when we seem to have more issues with An Garda Síochána, risk assessment should be higher. When the Garda is embroiled in issue after issue, the internal mechanisms in terms of risk assessment and internal audits are not functioning properly. While the recommendations in our motion tonight are being implemented and the review takes place, those existing structures and mechanisms should be used to the full.

Deputy John McGuinness

I will follow on from what Deputy John Curran has said. There are internal audits and it is a wonder that those two groups of internal audit committees did not uncover at an earlier stage the 14,700 convictions that were wrong or the million breath tests that were simply not carried out. How much knowledge do members of the force have in this regard? One cannot carry out a million breath tests and fake them. One cannot process 14,700 cases and not know what is in them. It is not a systems failure but a failure of the police to do their job properly and a failure of management to do theirs correctly as well. There was no transparency or accountability. It appears that management overlooked what was going on within the force, without any attempt to correct it. The most senior manager in the force has served for 36 years. One would imagine that these senior managers would have known about the Garda college, that a million tests were falsified and that 14,700 convictions were questionable, yet nothing was done. We are now asking the same management team to participate in correcting all of the wrongs within the force. I do not think it works that way. If it was in any other business, they would be asked at least to stand aside and that is what is required here.

Regarding the Garda whistleblowers, they are being treated as badly today as they were when they first came forward. That is an awful reflection on the management, who talk about change and the need for transparency and accountability. That is a fact. Further audits were conducted, the results of which we have not yet seen. When we see them, they will add to the existing disarray within the force. There is a need for individuals to take responsibility and stand aside, and for the Government to take action immediately to restore confidence in An Garda Síochána. We must protect the many thousands of men and women who go out in an honest way to do their job on a daily basis on behalf of citizens.

Deputy James Lawless

I will continue on from my colleagues' comments and reflect briefly on the nature of effective policing administration. To properly perform, police require public trust and confidence. A little like ourselves, they are governed by the will of the people. Trust is integral to the effective functioning of that service. Policing is often divided into two models, namely, the constabulary model and the gendarmerie model. The constabulary model, which we have followed, largely has locally rooted officers living among their own communities and policing people with whom they are familiar as they are of the community themselves. It is an unarmed force. This model is integrally linked to confidence in the administration of justice - in justice not only being done but also being seen to be done.

The presumption of innocence is absolutely fundamental to our criminal justice system. The right of silence underpins this because the accused is not required to prove his case. However, 14,700 people have had this denied to them in recent times. In fact, that may only be the tip of the iceberg. We are aware of the 14,700 from the traffic convictions, yet we hear there may be more to emerge across other areas of the force. This lack of openness, transparency and accountability fundamentally undermines the force, the public's trust, and the very protection that the Garda sets out to enforce. It hinders and undermines the hardworking, honest and decent gardaí throughout the country who rely upon public trust and confidence to perform their duties.

The Garda has been vested with many new powers in the past two decades. The Criminal Justice Acts from 2006 to 2009, the Criminal Justice (Surveillance) Act, the Criminal Assets Bureau, CAB, the mini-CAB, and the Offences Against the State Act are continually renewed. These multiple pieces of legislation make powers available to regular policing, what they call ordinary activities, that were once the preserve of the "subversive" area.

However, with all these increased powers comes responsibility. With great power comes great responsibility. We must match this with increased vigilance, monitoring and inspection. We must give GSOC powers akin to those conferred on Revenue, the Garda, the Defence Forces and others. That model, as set out in Deputy Jim O'Callaghan's motion, will increase those powers, increase monitoring and transparency, upgrade training services and place a mechanism of vigilance over the force. This has never been more essential than now in light of what we have heard. I call on the Minister to urgently take into account the motion and its recommendations.

Minister for Justice and Equality (Deputy Frances Fitzgerald)

I move amendment No. 2:

To delete all words after "Dáil Éireann" and substitute the following:

“recognises that:

- the recent controversies surrounding An Garda Síochána are of the utmost seriousness and go to the heart of policing in the State;

- it is essential that the Government, this House and all our citizens can trust members of An Garda Síochána to carry out their duties fairly, impartially and in accordance with the law;

- while members of An Garda Síochána continue to perform very good work and put their lives at risk on a daily basis keeping communities safe and protecting the security of the State in the face of major challenges, including the threats from organised crime, subversion and international terrorism, deep-seated organisational problems which have not been properly addressed over a number of decades, such as those exemplified in the recent report by Mr. Justice Fennelly, must be urgently and fully addressed;

- in particular, there is understandable public concern arising from recent very serious issues about the administration by An Garda Síochána of mandatory alcohol testing and fixed charge notices;

- the most effective way of addressing issues of concern which have arisen is to ensure that the issues in relation to road traffic matters are comprehensively and independently assessed, a major programme of reform is completed as quickly as possible and there is a fundamental review of the future of policing in Ireland;

- the resolution of the serious issues facing An Garda Síochána cannot be achieved by measures which undermine the effectiveness of An Garda Síochána in protecting the community;

- robust and independent oversight of policing is essential to the delivery of policing service in the 21st century and that the Oireachtas enacted the Garda Síochána (Policing Authority and Miscellaneous Provisions) Act in 2015 and that the independent Policing Authority was established on 1st January 2016;

- at the heart of the establishment of the Policing Authority was a desire, on the part of the Oireachtas, to remove politics from policing to the extent possible consistent with the Constitution of Ireland and that nothing said or done in this House should detract from the work of the Policing Authority, undermine its independence in doing that work or to politicise An Garda Síochána; and

- there is a legal framework of accountability in which public servants perform their duties and it would be a dangerous precedent for this House to target individual public servants, by way of resolution, in a departure from that framework;

notes that:

- the Policing Authority is chaired by the former Chairman of the Revenue Commissioners and that the other eight members of the Policing Authority were appointed by the Government on the recommendation of the Public Appointments Service which had invited applications for membership of the Policing Authority;

- the nine members of the Policing Authority are persons who independently bring a range of valuable experience and expertise to bear on the work of the Policing Authority and that even though the Policing Authority has only been in existence for 15 months, it has in that time established itself as a robust and independent oversight body;

- the House should support the Policing Authority fully in its very important work; and

- the Policing Authority has specific statutory responsibilities, including in relation to the appointments to the higher ranks of An Garda Síochána and continuation of persons in office, the exercise of which must not be interfered with or improperly influenced in any way;

supports:

- the request made by the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality to the Policing Authority under the Garda Síochána Act 2005 to report on recent road traffic issues and the fact that an investigation will be conducted by the Policing Authority with the assistance of external expertise which will examine all issues arising, addressing, to the greatest extent possible, the reasons why the issues have arisen, the incidence and scale of the issues and the solutions implemented to ensure there is no reoccurrence;

- the strengthening of Garda management capacity by the early appointment of three additional civilian leaders to the senior management team, executive director – strategy and transformation, executive director – legal and compliance and a chief information officer;

- the completion as soon as possible by the Garda Inspectorate of an examination, at the request of the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, of entry routes to An Garda Síochána from other police services and the opening up of promotion opportunities within An Garda Síochána to non-Garda personnel, whether policing professional or otherwise;

- the completion, under the oversight of the Policing Authority, of the urgent implementation of extensive reforms to the administration of, and operation of, An Garda Síochána under the Garda Síochána modernisation and renewal programme, 2016 to 2021, incorporating recommendations of the Garda Inspectorate report, Changing Policing in Ireland;

- the specific monitoring and assessing by the Policing Authority of the implementation of recommendations of the Garda Inspectorate report, Changing Policing in Ireland, and the Policing Authority reporting to the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality quarterly on this matter, who will publish these reports;

- the cultural audit of An Garda Síochána which will commence shortly;

- the provision of any additional resources to the Policing Authority which may be necessary to ensure it is able to carry out its work effectively, including a review of the legislation governing its operation which is due to be undertaken this year under the terms of the Garda Síochána Act 2005; and

- the intention to implement in full the recommendations made by Mr. Justice Fennelly in his recent report;

agrees that, notwithstanding the significant programme of reform that is already under way and the central role of the Policing Authority in overseeing the implementation of that programme, the time is right to undertake a "root and branch" review of all aspects of policing in Ireland;

and further notes that:

- the Government agreed at its meeting on 11th April 2017 to establish a commission on the future of policing in Ireland and to circulate the draft terms of reference to other parties;

- the commission’s draft terms of reference, while subject to further consultation, are intended to be comprehensive and provide for a thorough review of all aspects of policing including appropriate accountability mechanisms, with a view to resolving policing issues outside the realm of political controversy;

- the draft terms of reference will address:

- structures, leadership and management arrangements required for the most effective delivery of policing, including all functions currently carried out by An Garda Síochána – community safety, security and immigration;

- appropriate composition, recruitment and training of personnel;

- culture and ethos of policing;

- appropriate structures for oversight and accountability, including all oversight bodies, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Government:;

and

- the legislative framework for policing;

- the draft terms of reference will take account of:

- existing and emerging issues identified as key challenges for Ireland’s model of policing;

- best practices in the policing models of other countries focused towards greater effectiveness and efficiency, and fostering public confidence in policing;

- previous reports concerning policing in Ireland; and

- any specific challenge to delivering consistent structural and cultural reform in policing;

- once this consultation process has been completed, the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality will revert to the Government with proposals for the establishment of the commission and draft terms of reference; and

- the establishment of the Commission on the Future of Policing in Ireland should not delay or detract from the implementation of the ambitious programme of reform under way which should continue unimpeded.”

We are at a crucial time in determining the future of policing. I would not for a moment seek to underestimate the seriousness of the issues that have arisen recently relating to fixed charge notices and mandatory alcohol tests. What emerged was as unacceptable as it was disturbing. I do not think much divides Deputy Jim O'Callaghan and I, or other Deputies, on our assessment.

Last week, we had the report by Mr. Justice Fennelly. This showed, if we needed to be shown once again, that over the decades organisational problems have accumulated in An Garda Síochána that have not been fully addressed. The great respect which we have – some Deputies have already commented on this - for the work that members of An Garda Síochána do, sometimes at great personal cost, cannot blind us to the need for profound and lasting change in the way An Garda Síochána does its work.

Trust in the police force has been shaken. The men and women who protect us every day from burglars, criminal gangs and the threat of terrorism have been undermined by the events of recent weeks. The roots of these events can be traced back many years.

With hindsight, I suspect that down through the years, as long as the Garda was relatively successful in keeping the community safe and protecting our security, all Governments were slow to recognise the problems that accumulated, as the nettle of necessary reform was not grasped.

Since my appointment as Minister for Justice and Equality I have initiated a programme of fundamental reform of An Garda Síochána. The programme is addressing many of the problems. However, I accept that the recent issues highlight the need for us to go further, while relentlessly driving the programme of change that is already in place. Many Deputies have spoken to me about the necessity of doing that. There is an array of competing motions and amendments before the House. The amendment sets out a clear, coherent and comprehensive approach to the issues that must be addressed.

We need to fully and independently investigate all aspects of what happened in respect of fixed charge notices and mandatory alcohol tests. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan has adverted to this. At my request, the Policing Authority is doing precisely this. The authority will use outside professional expertise to help discharge this task, as I have provided for in the legislation underpinning the Policing Authority. The authority will also examine the measures that need to be taken to ensure this does not happen again.

The capacity of senior management within An Garda Síochána clearly needs to be strengthened. In the short term, three civilian senior managers are being recruited to the Garda leadership team. These include an executive director of strategy and transformation, an executive director of legal and compliance and a chief information officer.

The Garda Inspectorate will report to me later this year on how we can open up recruitment in An Garda Síochána to officers from other police services and to people with other relevant experience. We would be foolish in response to different controversies to constantly deviate from the path of reform already laid out. We need to ensure existing plans for change are carried through fully. One crucial aspect to these changes is the Garda Síochána modernisation and renewal programme 2016 to 2021. This reflects the recommendations in the Garda Inspectorate report on changing policing in Ireland. Many Deputies have referred to the report in recent days.

The Policing Authority clearly has a crucial role in overseeing all of these reforms. I have asked Josephine Feehily, the reputable chairperson of the authority, to report to me every quarter on the implementation of that seminal inspectorate report. I intend to publish those reports. I expect the second report shortly.

I attach particular significance to a cultural audit of An Garda Síochána to be overseen by the Policing Authority. Culture is a problem grappled with in policing worldwide. We know that laws of themselves do not change culture. Public trust is earned by professionalism, high standards, honesty and openness. Such a culture needs to take hold. These are the types of issues that need to be addressed as part of the cultural audit and in other work I am proposing.

All these changes, when carried through, will greatly improve the capacity of An Garda Síochána to be the police service its members and the community deserve. In the Government's view, this is not enough.

Without inhibiting in any way the changes I have outlined, the time has come for a root and branch review of policing in Ireland for the future. Today, the Government agreed draft terms of reference for a commission on the future of policing in Ireland which I have published. I thank Members who met me last week to discuss the proposed terms of reference. They provide for a thorough review of all aspects of policing in Ireland, including the structures, leadership, management, composition, recruitment and training of personnel, as well as the culture and ethos of policing. They also account for all aspects of oversight and accountability. Many have referred to the variety of bodies relating to accountability at present. I want this to be examined. The exercise will include the role of the Department of Justice and Equality and the Government. Clearly, in a constitutional sense there is a clear role for the Government in respect of policing and security and this needs to be examined.

People want An Garda Síochána to succeed. In fact, they need An Garda Síochána to succeed. A well functioning police service, trusted by the people, is a cornerstone of any democracy worthy of the name. As the democratically-elected representatives of the people, all Members must work to make An Garda Síochána succeed. Politicising the issues and jockeying for position will not help. Personalising the issues and acting as if deep-seated problems can be changed by constant changing of personnel will not help. Populism parading as reform will not help either.

In fairness to Deputy Jim O'Callaghan and some others here, I have no issue with much of what is in the Fianna Fáil motion. I very much recognise the concerns which he has expressed. However, I believe he is in danger of overlooking one fundamental point. The House established a Policing Authority to independently oversee An Garda Síochána and take politics out of policing. Political interference in our police force throughout the history of the State has damaged An Garda Síochána. The Deputy wants to increase the powers available to the authority. That is something I have no problem with in principle. However, it is difficult to square that with his apparent unwillingness to let a body, independent by law, get on with its job.

The position of the Government relating to confidence in the Garda Commissioner remains unchanged. It is worth bearing in mind that the Policing Authority already has the power to recommend to the Government the removal of certain Garda officers from their posts, including the Garda Commissioner, something that I built into the legislation I introduced previously. However inadvertently, I believe that the attempt in the motion to move the authority in that direction could interfere with its independence. Moreover, the legal advice available to me is that there is no statutory mechanism for the Government to make a request to the Policing Authority of the kind referred to in the motion. The making of such a request could prejudice any later formal recommendation by the authority. The Policing Authority should be allowed to carry out its work without interference or hindrance.

I imagine every Member would agree that it takes courage to be a member of An Garda Síochána. We might think of the courage required when a gun is produced or a knife is raised. However, courage is required in other areas as well. Such courage includes the courage to say "No" if the instruction is wrong. It includes the courage to cry "Halt" to a practice that may have been going on forever but that should stop immediately. It also includes the courage to embrace and contribute to reform at all levels.

It would be good to see that courage to embrace and contribute to reforms being emphasised at all levels. That is part of the courage that is required to be a member of An Garda Síochána, on which I believe we can all agree. It is against that background that I commend the counter motion to the House.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien proposes to share time with Deputy Maurice Quinlivan.

Deputy Jonathan O'Brien

I need to reference the fact that we in Sinn Féin believe Fianna Fáil's motion should have been ruled out of order. We wrote to the Ceann Comhairle about the matter. We fully respect the decision taken by him that, in his opinion, it was not contradictory to what we had scheduled for debate tomorrow night. Even though we made the complaint, we fully respect his ruling, even if we do not agree with it.

I will start by outlining some of the things on which we do agree. There are a number of differences between all of the counter motions. I will formally move Sinn Féin's. We can agree that we need An Garda Síochána to succeed and that we also need a well functioning police service, as the Minister said, to be trusted by everyone. That is the cornerstone of our democracy. We also need An Garda Síochána to play a highly important role in Irish society that the public can trust. The confidence it holds among the public is a crucial element of effective policing. We can also all agree that there is an immediate need to reassure the public that urgent action is being taken to implement real reform and cultural change to ensure oversight, particularly within the management levels of An Garda Síochána.

We do not support Fianna Fáil's motion for one particular reason - it calls on "the Government to take immediate steps to rectify the real and substantial crisis in confidence in An Garda Síochana". It does not go on to state how that can happen. Yes, it talks about strengthening the powers of the Policing Authority. However, when we discussed the establishment of the authority, Fianna Fáil chose to vote against a number of amendments put before the House which would have done exactly what the motion is proposing to do and more. Even though it is late to the party, it is welcome that it is late to it in providing for real accountability and in giving real powers to the Policing Authority.

My second point is about how the motion calls on "the Government to request the Policing Authority to assess the role and capacity of the Garda Commissioner to restore public confidence in An Garda Síochána". It is wrong of Fianna Fáil to do this. I am sure Deputy Jim O'Callaghan and his party are quite capable of assessing Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan's role and capacity as Garda Commissioner to restore public confidence in An Garda Síochána. Trying to foist that responsibility on an independent body when there is no statutory provision for the Government to ask the Policing Authority to carry it out is, in all honesty, a very cynical move by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan. I said today that I thought this was a very cowardly motion by Fianna Fáil. Let us get to the point of what it is about. It is to try to get Fianna Fáil off the hook tomorrow night when there is a motion that actually is based in legislation that we will move to ask the Government to remove the Garda Commissioner from her position under section 11(1)(c) of the Garda Síochána Act 2005. It is well within the remit of this Chamber to express that view, regardless of whether we believe the Tánaiste should remove the Garda Commissioner.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan talked about questions not being answered by senior members of An Garda Síochána when they came before the committee and how we had not received straight answers to straight questions. It is a bit rich of Fianna Fáil when it will not even answer a very simple question: does it believe the Cabinet should make a decision to remove Ms Nóirín O'Sullivan from her position - yes or no? I have heard nobody from Fianna Fáil answer that question to date. If they do believe it, they will have the opportunity to support the motion tomorrow night. If they do not believe it, they will vote against it, but it is wrong to try to foist the responsibility for making their own assessment of the Garda Commissioner and expect the Government to ask an independent statutory body to carry out that assessment. All of the mutterings from Deputy Jim O'Callaghan and his party suggest they do not believe Ms O'Sullivan has the capacity to carry out the programme of reform to restore public confidence. The Deputy and his party have said they cannot express confidence in the Garda Commissioner. He has also said that if Fianna Fáil were in government, in all likelihood, she would be removed as Garda Commissioner. I know that it is probably very safe to sit on the fence, but if they sit on it for too long, they will get splinters in their backsides. Perhaps it is time to get off the fence and make a decision on the motion tomorrow night. That is all I will say on the matter.

I want to speak to our amendment to Fianna Fáil's motion. It would go even further in strengthening the powers of the Policing Authority. We state the authority should be consulting local communities and joint policing committees, JPCs, which are provided for in legislation to obtain their views and experience of policing. It should be able to conduct its functions without needing the consent of the Minister. If we are serious about removing policing from political influence or the political process, we should give it full autonomy to make decisions on the formulation of policing plans and full authority to remove a Garda Commissioner, if it so decides, rather than just making a recommendation to the Government to carry out that function. We should give the authority the power to remove and appoint senior members of An Garda Síochána.

The amendment also seeks to give the Policing Authority the authority to deal with complaints and discipline senior members of An Garda Síochána, right up to deputy commissioner, assistant commissioner and the Garda Commissioner. We also believe the membership of the authority should be increased from its current number to 21. It should include members from a variety of backgrounds and with expertise, including legal, human rights, academic, civil society and law enforcement. We also need diversity within its membership. It should be a statutory requirement that the membership of the authority be representative of society in general. For these reasons, we will not be supporting Fianna Fáil's motion and will be putting forward our own counter motion.

With regard to the Government's programme of reform, I met the Minister last week and received a commitment that while the commission had been established, taking 12 to 18 months to report back was not a reason ongoing reform could not take place. It is crucial that ongoing reform take place in line with the deliberations of the commission. We could take very quick steps in this Chamber to try to restore public confidence. One, as I have previously said, would be the removal of the Garda Commissioner. Another would be implementing in a very speedy manner the necessary legislation to increase the powers of the Policing Authority, GSOC and the Garda Inspectorate. I find it unbelievable the Garda Inspectorate cannot make unannounced visits to Garda stations. It actually has to give three months notice before it can make a visit to a Garda station, which I find ironic. These are very simple steps that could be taken very quickly to try to improve the accountability and transparency of An Garda Síochána.

That is how we try to improve public confidence.

It should also be noted we are not just talking about restoring public confidence in An Garda Síochána. We are also trying to restore some of the morale within the police service because there is no doubt that it is at an all-time low. When the Garda Commissioner comes before an Oireachtas committee and blames every single member of force for the ills it has gone through in the past number of weeks, I do not think that is helpful to morale. It should be recognised that there are many good men and women of An Garda Síochána who do a very difficult job daily, some of them for not a lot of money, let us be honest about it and I think it was wrong of the Commissioner to say that.

I reiterate to Fianna Fáil that it should get off the fence, decide whether it believes the Cabinet should remove Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan, and not try to foist that responsibility onto the independent Policing Authority. That is wrong and it does not do the independent Policing Authority any justice.

Deputy Maurice Quinlivan

I start by voicing my deep concern and disquiet at the way Fianna Fáil has acted to undermine the Sinn Féin motion which was scheduled for tomorrow. I believe its actions are purely political and not in the best interests of citizens or of resolving the many issues surrounding this topic. People can see right through its games.

As Deputy Jonathan O'Brien said, this is a detailed motion that does very little. It does not address one of the key issues which needs fixing, namely, the removal of the Garda Commissioner from office. The public are fed up of controversy after controversy in the Garda and it is time for a change in management. In no other organisation or business would the chief executive remain in position after such outrageous revelations. At this stage, one has to ask how bad things have to become before something is done about it. The Garda Commissioner cannot sit back, take responsibility for totally unacceptable mismanagement and then continue as if her apology fixes everything. It does not.

The most recent revelations are in addition to the many that have come before and they are now harming the very fabric of the Garda Síochána, which is unacceptable. Public confidence in the Garda is on the floor and it is not fair on the public or the many thousands of hard-working gardaí to allow this fiasco to continue. It beggars belief that the Garda Commissioner has not resigned, and it is equally incomprehensible to me and to many other people as to why the Government does not ask or demand that she does so.

Following the publication of the Fennelly report this week, the revelations of the taping of telephone calls does not even shock people. That is what is most shocking - that it does not shock people at all as they have become accustomed to what seems like the weekly revelation of wrongdoing. There is the wiping of penalty points, the outrageous treatment of whistleblowers, phantom breath tests, wrongful convictions and financial irregularities in Templemore - the list goes on and on.

We now have the bizarre situation where Fianna Fáil, despite saying it cannot express confidence in the Commissioner, is still refusing to take the necessary action for fear it might trigger an election. Fianna Fáil has the opportunity to put this issue to bed, start the process of reforming the Garda from the top down and begin restoring confidence in policing in the State. Instead of acting on this, it chose to play political games but this is to its detriment and I think people will see right through it. We should not be standing here making statements on the matter. The public's anger is evident and the solution is clear, but Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael put their interests ahead of everything else.

The Minister concluded by saying it takes courage to be a member of An Garda Síochána, on which I agree with her. I have worked with the Garda on a number of community groups and the joint policing committees and I know it does valuable work. However, the Minister also needs to have courage when a whistleblower comes forward. Deputy after Deputy has stood up in the Dáil for as long as I have been elected and told her that whistleblowers who come forward are not being looked after properly and have huge concerns about coming forward, but that is not being addressed.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I will speak to the amendment in my name and that of my Labour Party colleagues. In doing so, I want to concentrate on the many areas on which I believe we have broad agreement in this House. We were all disturbed at the news that 145,000 District Court summonses for road traffic fixed charges were wrongly issued, which is an astonishing number, and that 14,700 of those resulted in convictions and penalties being wrongfully imposed by the courts. These now have to be undone and we still do not have any word on how that will happen.

Hand in hand came news that the Garda Síochána can no longer stand over its own data relating to roadside breath tests. It withdrew the figures because they are irreconcilable with data provided by the Medical Bureau of Road Safety from its breath test device database. This revelation completely undermines the national road safety strategy. Mandatory alcohol testing has been a key feature of the strategy going back 2007. Determining the incidence of drink driving using data collected at the point of enforcement has been a specific target of that strategy for a decade. As the RSA’s chief executive, Moyagh Murdock, said, the absence of credible and reliable enforcement metrics, such as the numbers of drivers being breath tested, makes it almost impossible to evaluate and measure the effectiveness of road safety interventions. The scale of the discrepancy between PULSE records showing 1.995 million breath tests and Medical Bureau of Road Safety records showing 1.058 million tests, almost 1 million of a difference, beggars belief.

We are all in this House dissatisfied at the ongoing inability of the Garda administration to provide any explanation, although it has been seized of this for a very considerable period, as to how there could be such a catastrophic failure in the performance of its statutory duty. We all agree these revelations are merely the latest in a series of controversies which together have undermined public confidence in the ability and credibility of Garda management. In particular, Garda management has shown no ability to respond effectively to the modernisation agenda being championed by the Garda Inspectorate. The inspectorate has very aptly described the Garda as “an ineffective structure, struggling to cope with modem demands”. It has characterised the current Garda culture as inhibiting change and has expressed frustration, as we all have, that so many of the inspectorate's key recommendations have just not been acted upon.

All this has happened notwithstanding a major legislative overhaul back in 2005, including the setting up of both GSOC and the inspectorate. The more we dig, however, the more we discover that these were all just legislative platitudes and signalled no fundamental change at all. The net result of all of this is that most of the public, and most Members of this House, including the Deputies that sit behind the Minister and many of those who sit beside her, do not have confidence in the management of An Garda Síochána.

The problem is not just a "cultural" one, which is the term the Garda Commissioner has used so often. The problem is a structural one. I say that with hesitation because the statutory structure is a complex one. We have various satellite bodies orbiting around An Garda Síochána, each with its own board and officers, its own functions, mission statement, strategy statement, five-year plans and annual plans. We have GSOC to look at complaints, the Garda Inspectorate to look at best practice, the Policing Authority to oversee performance and the Minister to secure eventual accountability. However, amidst this plethora of bodies and functions, what is increasingly clear is the one thing we do not have. We do not have any body with the power, the duty and the capacity to bring senior Garda management into the modern age - an age in which effectiveness and efficiency, and openness, transparency and accountability, are not only expected but actually delivered; an age in which targets are publicly and clearly set and delivered upon; and an age in which those who fall short are identified and held to account. What we do not yet have, but what we urgently need, is a body that can direct the Garda Commissioner to adopt the inspectorate's reports and implement them, and that can issue written directives to the Commissioner to take specified steps, within specific timelines, to implement specific changes.

Again, a majority of us agree that we need as a first and immediate step to change the law. We need to give the Policing Authority the clearly necessary power to take this matter in hand and sort it out now. In other words, we need to give the Policing Authority actual authority. We need to vest it with the statutory power to publish a radical reform programme, based on the recommendations of the Garda Inspectorate, and the statutory power to make directions to Garda management in implementing this programme. We need more. There will be no once-off, quick-fix solution to this real and substantial crisis in public confidence. No two crises are ever identical and no two solutions should be identical either. We do not need Chris Patten and we do not need to borrow from his terms of reference and the work of his commission. We need a policing review, however, under an independent commission that is both radical and comprehensive. I had a chance, at a very basic level, to read the draft terms of reference circulated this afternoon. On first reading, they appear to be comprehensive. We will, of course, revert to the Tánaiste with more detailed consideration once we have examined the terms of reference in detail.

I agree that we now need fundamental change. The public expects this. We need more transparency, accountability and professionalism because the nature of crime is changing. The notion that we can do things now as we did in 1928 is fundamentally wrong.

I agree with the point made earlier that it is regrettable that the Tánaiste did not find the time to meet representatives of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors at its conference. I understand the demands on her time but her action will be seen as a mistake and as distancing herself from a workforce that is actually under incredible pressure. It was a misjudgment and one she should seek to amend. I am glad the association is in agreement with so many of us here in arguing that many of our problems might not have arisen had the really detailed recommendations of the Garda Inspectorate been implemented.

There is a final matter on which I believe we can all agree. This should be the last time we gather collectively to express dismay and disbelief over the latest revelations of mismanagement in An Garda Síochána. There must be no more piecemeal reactions on the hoof and no more seeking to minimise the damage or seek ad hoc solutions in a way described by Deputy Jim O'Callaghan as always looking in the rearview mirror. I am cautious in calling for something as hackneyed as "root and branch reform" as it is a phrase that jars with many, but I believe we need an examination of Garda structures and processes that is sufficiently thorough and far-reaching and a commitment to embrace the changes that follow, that we can say we have put an end to our fire-brigade-style response to successive Garda crises and that we have resolved once and for all to do the job we have been sent here to do and restore public confidence in the administration and carrying out of policing in the State.

Deputy Mick Barry

I am sharing my time with Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett.

It is clear from this debate this evening that if the Garda Commissioner remains in her post for the next period, it will be in large measure courtesy of the Fianna Fáil Party. It is true that those who have the power to remove the Commissioner are the members of the Cabinet but the reality is that if this House were to have voted to express no confidence in the Commissioner, she would have lost not only the confidence of the people of this country, whom I believe have no confidence in her, but also the confidence of the majority in the House. There would be unstoppable pressure on her to go which the Government would be unable to withstand. That would happen. It is courtesy of Fianna Fáil that she remains in place.

Scandal after scandal has occurred. How many does it take? There was the McCabe scandal and that of the other whistleblowers. There were nearly 1 million dodgy breathalyser tests. Nearly 15,000 people were falsely convicted. There is a new issue that needs to be focused on, that is, the establishment by the Commissioner of a liaison group or unit within the Garda. The idea is that gardaí who wish to contact and speak before the Charleton tribunal would contact that liaison group first. It comprises two retired gardaí appointed by the Commissioner. The fact that a circular has been sent to every member of the force saying that if he or she wants to contact the Charleton inquiry, he or she should go through the liaison group and should contact it first. That has to have a chilling effect. If someone wanted to give evidence or information to a tribunal that might not be good news for the Commissioner, his or her having to go through the liaison group appointed by the Commissioner would be completely inappropriate. It underlines the argument made from these benches in recent debates that leaving the Commissioner in her position while the tribunal takes place undermines the workings of the tribunal itself. What does Fianna Fáil have to say about that?

Cabinet members have briefed the press to say there is a feeling in the Cabinet that public confidence has been shattered in An Garda Síochána. Questions are being asked about the broader justice system also. Imagine an attempt in a city of 1 million people to exclude hundreds of thousands from a jury. Imagine an attempt to exclude the entire population of one area, an area equivalent to the size of Galway, from serving on a jury. Imagine an attempt to exclude from a jury anyone who had expressed an opinion in social media on the biggest topic of debate in society in the past three years. That is precisely what the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions is attempting to do in regard to the trial of seven defendants charged with false imprisonment, that is, kidnapping, of the former Tánaiste at Jobstown in Tallaght in 2014.

An Ceann Comhairle

I do not consider it appropriate to comment on the work being done by the Office of the Director of Public Prosecutions regarding a case that is live. It is highly irregular and not appropriate.

Deputy Mick Barry

In that case, I will conclude by saying that the idea that 70,000 people who live in Tallaght should not be able to sit on a jury, or that hundreds of thousands of people who have expressed their opinion on water charges in recent times should not be able to sit on a jury, is wrong. Not many people know about this now. There will be outrage over it when more find out.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

A point I have made on a number of occasions, but which I will make again, is that the Minister is operating a double standard in the various agencies under her Department's remit. In response to a parliamentary question that I put to her on how many staff or employees under the Department had been suspended from their jobs pending an investigation, I was informed the number was 26. I put the same question to every single Department. The number in the Department of Justice and Equality, 26, was the highest mentioned in any of the responses. Furthermore, I asked the Minister whether she could state the affected bodies under her Department. I have still not got an answer several weeks after I put the question. I was told the information was not available.

Is there a double standard, where the norm under Department of Justice and Equality is that if there is an investigation one is suspended? I ask because in the case of Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan, the head of the Garda, against whom some of the most serious allegations one could possibly levy against a Garda Commissioner are made, ones that if there was a scintilla of truth in them would make her completely unsuitable for her job, we are told it is okay for her to stay in position while the investigation is ongoing. This House was informed wrongly that it was not normal practice to remove a person in these conditions but, in fact, that is what happens in the Department of Justice and Equality for other employees. For the Commissioner, it is not so, and we get bogus arguments about due process. The fact of the matter is we cannot prejudge the outcome of the investigation but it is normal practice in the Department that if there are serious allegations, officials are suspended. That happens because there is a potential, if somebody remains in position, that it compromises the investigation. Where could that not be more true than in an investigation into the Garda Commissioner and in view of the seriousness of the allegations that are being levied against her. It is shocking.

Deputy Mick Barry referred the liaison committee and the reports we are getting about an internal disciplinary action taken against the whistleblower, Superintendent Dave Taylor, when he returns to work. We have allegations that the Commissioner is already using her position to frustrate whistleblowers and the proper investigation of the matters which Mr. Justice Charleton is looking into. It could not be more serious when one considers the credibility of the Garda is being called into question with a million fake breath tests, with 147,000 wrongful summons, with 14,000 drivers wrongly convicted, all this on top of the treatment of Sergeant Maurice McCabe and the whistleblowers. The reputation of the Garda is in shreds. There is the failure of Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan to give the information about all of this to the Policing Authority and the fact that she knew about it for three years and we only heard about it in March 2017. This is shocking and the Government and Fianna Fáil still think it is okay that she stays in position. That is not to say let us abandon natural justice. It is to say she should not remain in position pending the outcome of that investigation.

If the Government and Fianna Fáil are not willing to take that action and send out that signal in regard to matters as serious as this around Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan, how can all the other references in these motions about root-and-branch change be taken seriously? It has no credibility if the Government does not show a willingness to take action in regard to Commissioner Nóirín O'Sullivan.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan is sharing with Deputies Clare Daly and Mick Wallace.

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

There is something inherently wrong in so many of our institutions, from the church, banking, various charities and bodies, and now the Garda. It is hard to believe that an organisation could make so many mistakes, and for so long.

In my constituency of Dublin Central, we have had very serious criminal situations. We have had levels of violence almost normalised on our streets and unprecedented levels of drug dealing, and the gardaí, from the three stations of Mountjoy, the Bridewell and Store Street, have been doing their work professionally in those very difficult situations. Every day the community gardaí face those drug dealers who are taunting them that, because of the lack of legislation, the Garda cannot do anything and the gardaí are constantly being reminded of how much more money these dealers are making over what the gardaí are making. Our unarmed gardaí have been badly served and that would have continued only for the courage of the whistleblowers, their tenacity, and also the support that they got, for example, from Deputies Clare Daly and Mick Wallace. Of course, it should have come to light much sooner. There should not have been a need for whistleblowers if there had been a commitment to fairness and accountability. The gardaí deserve so much better from those in positions of authority and they also need a fairer, more open and accountable way of promotion.

Much was expected of the first female Commissioner, especially one who had come up through the ranks, who had served with the undercover drugs agency - one of the first Mockies - coming through a chauvinistic old boys' network. The initial signs were promising that she would be a force for change but it is disappointing that when wrongdoing was discovered there was not an immediate acknowledgement of it at the time with a plan to deal with it and deal with those involved following due process.

We have some very good Garda practise in the north inner city, particularly the community policing forum where everybody, from the gardaí to the chief superintendent, will meet the community, either privately or at a public meeting, and answer the issues that the community bring to them. That is a model that could be replicated.

I listened to the deliberations of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors today. It referred to the political ping-pong in the Dáil and the numbers of investigations, examinations, tribunals, etc. The time for those is over and the time for action is now in the interest of fairness and justice.

Deputy Clare Daly

The danger of walking down the middle of the road is that one runs the risk of getting knocked down on both sides. Of course, it is also not a sustainable position because at some time one has to decide to go to one side or the other. That is the problem for Fianna Fáil tonight. Everything that party said acknowledges that it does not have confidence in the Commissioner and senior management but it is falling short of calling for something that would deal with this situation. It is not good enough.

It is astounding for the Minister for Justice and Equality to come in here and talk about these issues as populism masquerading as reform. The reason we are in this situation is precisely because the Government chose not to take the politics out of policing when it had the chance. Legislation was repeatedly tabled by DeputyMick Wallace to have a genuinely independent policing authority and the Commissioner to be accountable to it and not to the Minister. However, the Government and its former allies in the Labour Party, who have now had a Damascus-like conversion, voted and argued against it, and sadly Fianna Fáil did as well. That is what we are paying the price for now. It is unfinished business.

It is ironic that we listen today to the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors state it was upset about the discussions in the Dáil around policing issues. I did not hear it being quite so upset about its whistle-blowing members when they were being vilified and demonised. The problem is that all it takes for evil to survive is for good men to stay silent and do nothing. There are deep cultural problems but they have to be tackled from the top.

The Commissioner's intervention today around referring cases to GSOC was wholly inappropriate when that type of systemic abuse of the breath test could not possibly be down to individuals; it is a systems failure. It is about time we dealt with it.

Deputy Mick Wallace

The Garda Commissioner remains exclusively accountable to the Minister for Justice and Equality rather than to the Policing Authority. The Minister alone still has the power to issue directives to the Garda Commissioner. We cited ten reasons, in 2015 alone, as to why the Policing Authority was not fit for purpose but, sadly, Fine Gael, the Labour Party and Fianna Fáil said otherwise.

The sooner the Government accepts that the current Commissioner is not the person to reform An Garda Síochána, the better. The Commissioner told the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality two weeks ago that she is committed to reform and that there was a demonstrable track record to prove this. However, her actions speak differently. If we look at her engagement with the Garda Inspectorate, it is clear she is not willing to follow through with the reforms that are needed.

Since 2006, the Garda Inspectorate has completed 11 reports, with hundreds of recommendations. Sadly, the weak legislation that established the Garda Inspectorate means it has no statutory responsibility for the monitoring of the implementation of these recommendations. However, since 2008, An Garda Síochána has given status implementation update reports twice a year on the Inspectorate's website. These reports are hugely important, as they give us an indication of whether An Garda Síochána is engaging in the reform recommended by the Inspectorate. For example, under the former Commissioner, Mr. Callinan, there were seven such implementation update reports published. There have been three reports published by the Inspectorate since the present Commissioner, Ms O'Sullivan, took office, but no implementation update reports have been published. This is shocking. We asked the Inspectorate for a comment on it today, and it stated that the last such regular update was published in November 2013 when the process was interrupted due to pressure of work.

It has gone unnoticed in recent times, but the Commissioner has sidelined the role of the Garda Inspectorate completely since she has taken office. Instead of implementing the Inspectorate's recommendations, in June 2016 she introduced her own infamous five-year modernisation and renewal programme 2016 to 2021. This is a complete exercise in spin. Today, we inquired of the Inspectorate how many of its recommendations were contained in this programme. It informed us that it should be noted that the inspectorate has no role in the monitoring of the implementation of the Commissioner's modernisation and renewal programme.

It is farcical. Examination of the report shows that some of it is blatantly misleading. Chapter 6 deals with roads policing. It states: "In 2015, over 70,000 MAT checkpoints were conducted and it is proposed to increase MAT checkpoints by 10% each year over the next five years". However, when this programme of reform was published in June 2016, the Garda Commissioner was fully aware of the problems with mandatory alcohol testing checkpoints and breath testing. She knew about them in November 2015, and perhaps earlier. She knew in 2015 it was an area that needed reform, yet her five year programme for reform does not mention it. Instead, she tells us that the number of mandatory alcohol testing checkpoints will increase by 10% every year. One could not make it up. The Garda Commissioner tells us what she wants.

Another example is the audit of the Garda College which indicated a serious mismanagement of funds. That audit took place in June 2016; there had been issues surrounding it since 2008. However, as with the breath test issue, there is no mention of it in the Garda Commissioner's modernisation and renewal programme. The findings of the audit were leaked to the media in January 2017. Again, would we ever have found out about it otherwise?

An Garda Síochána is talking about bringing in three civilians at assistant commissioner level. Nóirín O'Sullivan will be in charge of them. John Barrett is a civilian at assistant commissioner level and he has been isolated. The reason is that he challenged the Garda Commissioner. He cannot do his job properly because everything he does must go through her. Bringing in civilians is a good idea, but the fact that she will rule the roost over them will not change matters dramatically. We must restructure how things are done and we must examine other matters but, for God's sake, get rid of the Garda Commissioner now. It does not make sense anymore to leave her in place. She is not management material. It is not personal, but she is not fit for the job.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I am delighted to have the opportunity to speak to the motion. The Minister for Justice and Equality said that she would not for one moment seek to underestimate the seriousness of the issues that have arisen recently relating to fixed charge notices and mandatory alcohol tests. She said that what has emerged is unacceptable and disturbing. She also referred to last week's Fennelly report and stated: "This showed - if we needed to be shown once again - that over the decades organisational problems have accumulated in An Garda Síochána that have not been fully addressed." I would go back further than that.

First, I express my support for the ordinary rank and file members of An Garda Síochána, as well as the inspectors and superintendents I deal with in Tipperary. However, it appears that matters have gone very much askew somewhere further along the line. I recall raising in the Chamber a number of years ago the encounter of the former Minister, former Deputy Alan Shatter, with his mandatory checkpoint. He did not treat the gardaí he met on the ground too well, unlike the Minister who always supports them. He showed disdain for them most of the time. That report was presented to me and it was given to a Garda station in Dublin, but it went missing and could not be found to corroborate what I had been told about what happened. He knows what happened and he admitted what happened later. He used his chest and asthma. It was the one and only time I ever saw him caught for words or stuck for breath or anything else. The arrogance and contempt he showed all of us in the House when we raised issues are what he showed for the force. It was despicable at the time. Now, he is rattling the cage again, including the cages of the Minister and the Taoiseach, because he is like a schoolboy who has been put out of the class. However, he made his bed so he can lie in it. The people showed what they thought of him in the election.

To return to An Garda Síochána today and the systemic problems that exist, we depend on the Garda. There is a thin blue line between the community and anarchy. The men and women of the Garda put on their uniforms and go to work every day. The vast majority of them are proud of that. They guard the community against all types of organised crime. Some of the crime now is very specialised. It is very different from the crime that occurred 30 or 40 years ago. However, I believe the systems in An Garda Síochána at command level have not changed or adapted with the times. Many incidents have been mentioned. I refer to two people from my county, Detective Sergeant John White, who is in Donegal, and Superintendent Dave Taylor. I know Detective Sergeant White and his family very well and I know the Taylor family also. What happened with Detective Sergeant White and what he was accused of have been forgotten in all of this. We must never forget the horrific Omagh bomb. I am involved with and support the Omagh bomb families in their search for justice and how they felt betrayed by what happened. I have met and listened to former Sergeant White and others regarding how that happened and why it should never have happened. There is also Dave Taylor.

What is going on? We must have a truly independent board for total oversight. A week or ten days ago I had decided that I wanted the Garda Commissioner to go, but now I believe there must be full reform before that. There is no point in just getting the head of a Garda Commissioner. We got one previously, and we are surprised again now. With the issues arising now perhaps he is somewhat vindicated in what he did. With all the pressure, reporting and the statements in this House An Garda Síochana is being put under enormous strain. I attended a retirement event for a wonderful detective, John O'Gorman, in Clonmel last Friday night. I met dozens of retired members of An Garda Síochána of all ranks, as well as dozens of serving members, at what should be a joyous occasion. They were downbeat and half depressed from the ongoing, relentless raising of different issues and mismanagement.

They are instructed to go out and do their work. There was extra pressure in recent years. All Members of the House knew that they had no tools of the trade. They did not have squad cars. I met a garda one night when I was canvassing. As he did not have a telephone, computer or squad car at the barracks, he went home to feed his dogs. He told me that himself. He was in uniform and was embarrassed when I knocked at his door. He said he should be at work but he could not do anything. He was left without the tools of the trade and without support. The austerity cuts and the lack of support were all hidden in the House by successive Governments. Gardaí did not have batteries for their flash lamps or ink for their pens. It was that bad, yet we expected them to continue to do their job.

They must be supported and respected. The respect of the public must be earned by An Garda Síochána. It is hard earned, and ongoing respect must be maintained by how the gardaí behave. No police force in the world can function without the support of the public. That is recognised all over the world. We must support the Garda but we must get all the dirty linen out and wash it. It was interesting to hear Labour Party Members speak tonight. One would think they had not been in Government for 20 years. Their backsides are barely out of the seat of Government. To hear them talk about the disdain, pressures and demands they have now is some change. It was the same today with regard to the greyhound industry, with the former Minister, Deputy Alan Kelly, calling for the board to be sacked. These are people appointed when he was in the Cabinet and had Cabinet responsibility. Who do they think they are codding? The party is down to seven Members. It will be down to one if they keep going in that way. The Member can come here on a Honda 50. The last time they arrived in a seven seater car. This hypocrisy is ridiculous.

I do not know how I will vote on these motions. One is trying to compete with the other and we all want publicity, as we saw today with regard to water. We must think seriously if we want a Garda force of which we can be proud of and that will support us, our families, children and grandchildren. We need to have full confidence in the Garda so there must be thorough root and branch support. We cannot have what is happening at present, as I found out from some of the people I met last week. Diktats are coming from assistant commissioners to chief superintendents, superintendents and inspectors to carry out numbers of checkpoints. They do not care how they do them, just that they do them. The gardaí cannot do them because they do not have the time, officers or resources. They are told, "Just get them". That is not healthy in any organisation, but that is still happening. That must be rooted out. They can only do what it is possible for them to do. There are only so many hours in a day for work. Their job is more complex now. Everything must be recorded, put on PULSE and so forth. They need time and space but the amount of mental pressure they are under is causing fatigue and illness. How can they work?

How can they go out to earn the respect they want without the proper support measures in place and without being bullied to carry out so many checkpoints and other pieces of work - getting no recognition and getting scolded and fined? There is an internal system of fines if gardaí do not deliver on certain targets. Let them do the job honestly, openly and transparently. It should not be a case of them manicuring figures to make it look good for promotional prospects but that is the system which has grown up since the foundation of An Garda Síochána. We need to change it root and branch. I know the Minister intends to do that.

I thank the Minister for her briefing last week on the commission and look forward to working constructively with her in that regard. We must get to the bottom of the issue, for the sake of the pride, safety, well-being and respect we have for the members of An Garda Síochána on the front line, male and female, and to maintain the trust I can instil in my family, friends and constituents. It is a very delicate situation. We must work towards building on that trust, but we must have a root and branch investigation and hang out all the dirty washing, no matter whether we have to buy more lines in Tesco or wherever else. We must hang it all out or get rid of it. There is a constant drip, drip, drip. There is a constant onslaught of leaks. Reports are held up, they are not released when they are ready and reports are not made to the Policing Authority. We must get it all out and get back to normality and try to support the Garda who face organised crime and subversives in order to protect us every day.

Deputy Róisín Shortall

For a police force to have authority it must have the respect and confidence of the civilians it polices. While traditionally that has been the case in this country we are getting very close to reaching a tipping point in terms of public confidence in the Garda. The public will not accept too many more scandals before the rule of law and the authority of the Garda is completely disregarded.

It is clear there have been serious problems within the Garda for decades. The problem is that successive Governments, led by the major parties, have utterly failed to tackle the problems. It seems the major parties have been happy to use and abuse An Garda Síochána for their own purposes. Not too long ago we had the spectacle of what was going on in Donegal. We had the Morris tribunal, at a cost of some €70 million, which pointed to systemic problems within the Garda, major cultural problems and significant issues relating to lack of accountability and lack of professional performance. The Morris tribunal was very clear that it was not just a case of a few bad apples in Donegal, but the indications were that the problems went right through the force - deep cultural problems, organisational problems and a lack of accountability throughout the force.

While the problems within the Garda are very serious, the more serious problem we have had is a failure at political level to tackle the problems. Parties traditionally have been very happy to maintain a cosy relationship with the Garda - getting constituents into the Garda in the first place and ensuring colleagues, constituents and friends were put in line for promotions. The reality is that is the way An Garda Síochána has operated because of a very unhealthy relationship with political parties through the years. Rather than that being something of the past, unfortunately, that kind of unhealthy relationship between politics and the Garda has continued up to the present day, most notably in recent years in respect of the Taoiseach's attitude and behaviour towards people who had the courage to come forward and be whistleblowers and to tell the public about some of the malpractice and maladministration that was going on in the Garda. Rather than those people being treated with respect and listened to, unfortunately, we had the most senior politician in the country going out of his way to rubbish the allegations they were making.

Traditionally, An Garda Síochána has been male dominated, hierarchical and excessively authoritarian. That breeds a kind of culture which is very unhealthy. One either goes along with what is happening within the organisation or one gets out. Unfortunately, several very promising gardaí have felt there has been no choice for them but to get out. For those who remain, who wish to make a career within the Garda, it is very hard for them to function in such a way that they can have the confidence to do the right thing and call it out when things go wrong, and that their superiors will listen to them and take appropriate action. If the attitude from the most senior politician is to rubbish people who have the confidence to do that, how can we have the kind of climate within the Garda where people feel empowered and encouraged to stand up for what is right? It is very difficult for gardaí who are out on the beat, who are trying to police local communities and do their best by their fellow citizens when there is that kind of attitude and culture coming down, not only from the top of the Garda but from the political system.

We had various inquiries on foot of whistleblowers and they would have run into the sand if Sergeant McCabe had not had the foresight to record the conversations he had in relation to evidence at the O'Higgins inquiry. We are still waiting for an explanation as to whether the Garda Commissioner instructed her counsel to attack the character of Sergeant McCabe. That issue has never been adequately addressed. On that basis alone, there are serious grounds for the Commissioner to step aside, but of course it goes much further than that. That issue was not addressed by the Commissioner, nor was it addressed by anybody at a political level, neither the Minister for Justice and Equality nor the Taoiseach. That is a serious failing of politics on their part.

Subsequent to that we saw all of the other serious scandals within the Garda. When the Charleton inquiry was established the Social Democrats said it was essential that the Garda Commissioner step aside pending the work of the inquiry. Unfortunately, that did not happen and that is a serious mistake. It is clear that if the Garda Commissioner is preparing to defend herself before a commission of investigation that she is not in a position to oversee and discipline her force. Examples have been given of how she is compromised in doing that and how she is severely restricting the work of the Charleton inquiry in terms of encouraging people to come forward and give evidence. That whole scandal has been compounded by the shocking detail that has come out in respect of traffic offences and the fake breath tests. The Minister knows that in any organisation where there is an unhealthy culture that in order to change it one must have accountability. One cannot have accountability unless there are consequences for people who do wrong. It was a test of the current Commissioner's mettle and authority when she was presented with all of the data for the fake traffic figures that she would take action against those senior officers who were responsible for overseeing such a shambolic system.

Unfortunately, she failed that test and has rendered herself unfit to continue as Commissioner.

Fianna Fáil is dancing around on this issue and talking tough, but if one talks tough, one must accept the following logical conclusions on what steps to take. It means calling for action to address the issue. It is not just a matter of talking tough but also of doing what is right. There are political reasons Fianna Fáil will not call for the commissioner's resignation or sacking, of which we are all conscious. Yet again we see compromise at political level and an utter failure to address inherent problems within the Garda force, for which both major parties have to take responsibility.

An Ceann Comhairle

Deputy Jack Chambers is sharing time with Deputies Bobby Aylward and Lisa Chambers.

Deputy Jack Chambers

I thank my colleague, Deputy Jim O'Callaghan, for bringing forward the motion. It is clear from our interaction with the Garda Commissioner last week that we have yet to receive answers to the simple questions we posed. We received an excellent description from her of what the problem was. We also heard descriptive language about apologies, mistakes, wrongdoings, unacceptability and failure, but we received no reasoning as to why they had occurred. The issues concerning breath-testing and fixed charge notices arose on senior management's watch. It is important for the Dáil and the Policing Authority to get answers to these questions. Earlier today we saw the Commissioner at the AGSI conference trying to throw out hypotheticals to her members, which I do not think was appropriate in the context of the fact that an audit was ongoing. To deliver some level of confidence, she should provide answers. When the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality receives the responses tomorrow, I hope we will be given answers to these important questions.

Unlike Deputy Róisín Shortall and Sinn Féin who put forward a populist, political motion which simply calls for a head without any solution to how we can reform policing, the motion before the House addresses a number of matters. It is about strengthening the existing regulatory powers in the context of the architecture of policing. That means empowering the Policing Authority and ensuring it has the capacity to intervene at the highest level to provide for a degree of oversight that we have not seen heretofore.

What goes to the core of the issue is that we are not sure, based on the evidence we have seen up to now, if we would have received the information but for a leaked report in The Irish Times. Senior management in An Garda Síochána had knowledge of this for two and a half years, yet little or nothing was done to inform the Minister or the Policing Authority that, as it knew full well, needed to receive the information. Our legislative role is the fundamental answer. That is why our motion tries to provide a framework to restore the morale and confidence of the members we saw today. They are angry and disappointed with the constant sense of crisis in policing. The motion provides a constructive legislative proposal that would work to address the matters before us, rather than simply trying to call for heads without providing solutions. What goes to the heart of this is Sinn Féin trying to remove the motion from the House. No party should monopolise the debate on any matter. We all have a right to table motions but not to monopolise or own a particular topic because it happens to be in the news. Our motion attempts to move forward by examining the future of policing.

Deputy Bobby Aylward

I commend my colleague, Deputy Jim O’Callaghan, for bringing forward the motion. In the wake of issues concerning the fixed charge penalty system and 1 million non-existent breath tests, the level of public concern has risen rapidly, while confidence has diminished to unprecedented levels. It is our responsibility as public representatives to do what we can to restore and rebuild public trust in An Garda Síochána. It is important to remember that we are discussing an institution which plays a vital role in Irish society. I strongly believe the vast majority of gardaí are honest and hard-working individuals who genuinely signed up to serve their country and improve the communities they protect. There are many gardaí, from those on the beat to those who are long retired, who served for decades with distinction and honour to the highest moral standards. However, there is clearly a collective failure at the heart of the way we are policing the country. The Garda Commissioner, Ms Nóirín O’Sullivan, stated the scandals were "at best, incompetence and, at worst, deception." Unfortunately, 146,865 summonses for motor offences sent in error and nearly 1 million falsified breath tests do not point toward incompetence; rather, they point towards the systemic falsification of records and wide-scale deception. This poisonous culture needs to be identified and eradicated before the public’s confidence in An Garda Síochána can be properly restored.

Our motion is aimed at expanding and strengthening the powers available to the Policing Authority to hold the force to account and ensure we will achieve and maintain the highest possible standards. We have recently published legislation to empower the authority to supervise the functioning of the Garda Commissioner’s office and the discharge of these functions by the Commissioner. The legislation would allow the authority to oversee the performance by An Garda Síochána of its functions relating to policing services and to establish policies and procedures for An Garda Síochána which would be binding on all members of the force. A further provision would give the Garda Inspectorate the power to make unannounced inspections at any Garda station or premises. The new Bill would also require the Commissioner to inform the Policing Authority of any event which might require an internal audit. Such measures would ensure the authorities we deem responsible for policing the police force would have the power to do their jobs effectively. I ask the Government to seriously consider our motion. I reiterate my support for the new commission to be established to review An Garda Síochána and its workings. We owe it to every member of the force, both past and present, who conducts his or her policing business to the highest ethical and moral standards in the community he or she serves to restore public confidence in An Garda Síochána.

Deputy Lisa Chambers

An Garda Síochána has moved from crisis to crisis in recent years. In a short space of time we have had to deal with the O'Higgins report, the Charleton tribunal and the most recent scandals involving falsified breath-tests and fixed charge notices, resulting in the wrongful conviction of 14,700 citizens. These citizens have been victims of a huge miscarriage of justice perpetrated by the State and An Garda Síochána. Has the Minister for Justice and Equality considered, or been briefed on, the implications of the fixed-charge notices, in particular? We have focused very much on the wrongful convictions which should be dealt with immediately and swiftly. They should be rectified to the satisfaction of the citizens involved, but what about cases going through the courts system? The Minister will be aware that there was a presumption in favour of An Garda Síochána offered by District Court judges. The presumption was that the fixed charge notice had been sent to, and received by, the individual in question. This presumption can no longer be relied upon. I know of a number of cases that have been dismissed in the courts owing to the inability of the judge to trust the fact that the fixed charge notice was, in fact, sent and received. While there are implications for those wrongfully convicted, there are also implications for cases going through the courts system. It is imperative that we do everything we can to ensure those who should be are convicted, while those who should not are not.

The falsified breath tests have implications for policy. We put together a policy on road safety and gave the impression to citizens that there was strong enforcement of drink driving laws but that has all been undermined. These actions have serious consequences, but sometimes their seriousness has been left to one side. The purpose of our motion is to provide solutions and examine the long-term plan for An Garda Síochána. To hear Sinn Féin state our motion is populist and solely motivated by political purposes goes to the heart of from where it is coming. It is populist for it to turn around a motion within 48 hours. That is motivated by political purposes. We took the time to consider the consequences of the actions we were going to take. We thought about what powers and responsibilities we had as an Opposition party. We also thought about the consequences our actions would have for citizens, the State and An Garda Síochána.

It takes a lot to reach a point where we, as a party, would say that we no longer have confidence in the Garda Commissioner. It takes very exceptional circumstances to warrant such a statement, but we have reached an exceptional point. The crises after crises over which the Garda Commissioner has presided have led us to this point and it is rank and file gardaí who have suffered. Listening today to members of An Garda Síochána talk about how morale is so low in the force, and how their day-to-day operations and duties have become so difficult, really speaks to the heart of the problem. We have to remember those rank and file gardaí that have to go out on the beat every day, engage with citizens and do their job. It is a job that still needs to be done and which has become increasingly difficult because of the failure of the Minister's Government to take action to rectify the systemic and cultural issues facing An Garda Síochána.

While others might condemn Fianna Fáil for the actions that we have taken, we have taken what I believe to be a very practical and responsible approach to this problem. We will always endeavour to do what is in the interests of the State, An Garda Síochána and citizens and to do what is right for all of those.

Minister for Education and Skills (Deputy Richard Bruton)

I appreciate the opportunity to contribute to this debate. This is a very serious debate for anyone who is in politics as long as I am. I entered politics with what was probably a very naive faith in the whole way in which An Garda Síochána was run. Over this long period many people's faith in that has been shaken. What we have decided today in government is really important, namely, that we need to look at the structures, culture, recruitment, management and so on, because they are not fit for purpose. That has been demonstrated time and again by the incidents which have occurred.

The truth is that we are on a very painful journey of reform in the Garda. All credit has to be given to the previous Government, this Government and the Tánaiste in particular for the programme of reform that has been instituted. We now have a Policing Authority which has independent oversight powers. We now have protection for whistleblowers. Far from what Deputy Róisín Shortall has said - that the Taoiseach has poured scorn on and rubbished whistleblowers - time and again we have seen the Government not only take whistleblowers seriously, but institute inquiries into the allegations made. These inquiries have resulted in information coming into the public domain and recommendations being made which advance the programme of reform. We have seen great improvements in GSOC, where there was, if we are to be honest, a dysfunctional relationship with An Garda Síochána. That relationship has been substantially repaired, although that is also a journey that has not reached its end. We have now put in place mechanisms, through the inspectorate and the Policing Authority, through which we can have a real programme of reform. That programme's implementation has begun and is being independently overseen by the Policing Authority, which is led by someone for whom I have the utmost respect, Josephine Feehily, the former chairperson of the Revenue Commissioners.

We have put in place much better oversight, but as a result of that oversight and the reform agenda we are seeing stones turned over and appalling things coming out from beneath. We in politics have to be mature enough not to run for demands for resignation at every revelation of wrongdoing. We have to have the patience and the good judgment to wait for the evidence to be sifted before we draw conclusions about where responsibility lies. Whether it is the drive of social media to have the freshest slice and to catch the next media wave or something else, it worries me that we in politics seem absolutely determined to respond to everything with a more outrageous demand for a head on a plate or whatever it is.

We need to respect gardaí. Gardaí are there to uphold the law, but they are also entitled to the fair procedure that the law affords to everyone else. A mere statement by a whistleblower does not constitute evidence. We have to realise that we gave protection to whistleblowers so that people could come forward without fear or favour and make things known to someone so they could be investigated. Once a whistleblower's claim comes into the public domain, however, we cannot immediately rush to the conclusion that the claim is proved.

I strongly support what we in government are doing today in establishing a commission. We need to bring in fresh blood into any organisation - and we have had other organisations - which recruits people at a very young age, and in which people spend 30 or 40 years of their lives, progressing up through it. These people do not have the mix of other skills. The organisation does not have recruitment at different levels. That is recognised in Deputy Jim O'Callaghan's motion. There is no way in which policing in the year of our Lord 2017 is the same as it was in 1977 or in 1947 but, by and large, the structures are the same. We need to recognise that there are huge areas of expertise in which there is a need to draw in the leaders of those fields, be they Irish or international, to help lead this force. It cannot all be done by upskilling those already there. We must look at recruitment and at culture. It is a hard thing to identify, but it is about what people regard as important. What happens when people do things that are wrong? What gets accounted for? That is really important within the culture.

We have seen other organisations whose reaction to wrongdoing within their ranks has been, at all cost, to avoid scandal, to circle the wagons and prevent scandal being shown or allowed to undermine the structure of the force or the organisation. That is wholly the wrong way to react. We need to see, from the bottom of the force right to the top, that when wrongdoing occurs the right thing to do is to open oneself up to that, to expose it and to deal with it so that a culture is conveyed in which being accountable is the right thing to do. Institutions have to be supported in doing that. I think the work of the independent inspectorate, of GSOC and of the Policing Authority will gradually change that, but we have to make sure that the structure which they are overseeing also changes. We have reached the point where simply having stronger oversight bodies, without changing the culture, management, recruitment and way in which An Garda Síochána works, will not be enough. That is the important step that we are taking now. We are recognising that oversight is one thing but having a structure that works is another.

The fundamental objection I have to Deputy Jim O'Callaghan's motion is that he is trying to confound those two things. It is important that we have a Garda system that works to the highest standards and that has the courage to do the things that need to be done, but is held accountable. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan's motion, however, asks that the Policing Authority would oversee it in every respect. It would supervise it, dictate policies to it, tell it what to do and supervise the Commissioner's office. That is far beyond what oversight or accountability demands. The Policing Authority would become the effective operator of An Garda Síochána. We have to keep those two. We need a strong Garda force that has the self-confidence and the independence to do things but that is strongly accountable to GSOC, to the Policing Authority and to the inspectorate. We should not confound those things. Again, the motion confounds those by saying that the Dáil should be requesting the Policing Authority to consider the Commissioner's position. The independent Policing Authority is independent of us. It makes its decisions and recommends to Government. It is not for the politicians to be telling the independent oversight body what it should be considering or doing. That is the wrong approach to adopt.

While I agree with a lot of what I see in Deputy Jim O'Callaghan's motion, we are at a very important stage and we need to step back and allow the evidence to be sifted by the tribunal set up under Mr. Justice Charleton. We need to allow the structures, such as Josephine Feehily's Policing Authority, to drive forward the reform. The authority is only 12 months old. It is learning its craft. We need to allow the strength of GSOC to show, to respect whistleblowers as we are now legally obliged to do and to allow that process to work. We need to step back a little and that is what the commission gives us the opportunity to do. It will allow people who have immense experience in different walks of life to bring their judgment to bear on one of the most important institutions we have as a nation.

It is something on which we need to rely. Members of the force who put their lives on the line every day for us need to be confident that they are working within a well-designed structure which recruits the best people to run those functions in the best possible way. They need to know that it respects truth and law, is properly accountable and is willing and has the self-confidence to expose itself to scrutiny. We need to step back. Instead of the political knee-jerk reaction of calling for heads, let us agree an approach to this commission. Let us make profound changes in order that, however long this Dáil lasts, we can reflect that we did a decent job in advancing the very painful journey of the force from one that is enclosed and inward-looking to one that is more outward looking and confident. That is a journey well worth travelling.

I commend the Tánaiste and Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, on the work she has done. There is much wisdom in this House on this issue, far beyond my knowledge of the justice portfolio. We need to use that wisdom to amplify the terms of this commission in whatever way we believe is useful. When the commission comes back, we should push on and implement that change. Let this Dáil be the one that puts in place the final pieces of a Garda structure we can all be proud of.

Deputy Jackie Cahill

Unfortunately, public confidence in An Garda Síochána is in shreds. The Policing Authority has to be the cornerstone of rebuilding this confidence. This motion is part of that process. Increased powers are necessary to bring reform and cultural change to An Garda Síochána. Recent revelations concerning the fixed charge system and the breath testing figures released are staggering and have shaken public confidence to the core.

The appearance of the Garda Commissioner before the Joint Committee on Justice and Equality did nothing to restore the confidence of Fianna Fáil in her position. She was assistant commissioner before being appointed to her current position. If she did not know what was happening, she should have known. Either way, her ability to restore public confidence in An Garda Síochána is seriously in question.

Fianna Fáil recently published legislation to expand and strengthen the powers of the Policing Authority. We now have this motion to establish a commission to review An Garda Síochána and its workings.

Two weeks ago, revelations shook public confidence in the force to the core. Some 14,700 people were wrongly summonsed to court under the fixed charge notice system. The financial cost of this has yet to surface. These costs include the loss of job opportunity for individuals, increased insurance costs and so on. It beggars belief that 937,000 breath tests could be falsely reported. Are there more revelations to come? The Irish Times put the revelations in the public domain. Were the breath tests deliberately inflated to restore confidence in road safety measures and drink-driving statistics? Will road traffic offences be the only ones where false figures will surface?

The chair of the Policing Authority, Josephine Feehily, learned of this fiasco from the media. That is not good enough. The Policing Authority will be the catalyst to reform our police force and rebuild public confidence.

I fully support Deputy Jim O'Callaghan's first steps in restoring the confidence in our police force that is so necessary for society.

Deputy Dara Calleary

I commend Deputy Jim O'Callaghan for his constructive and practical motion.

I want to pick up on some comments by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Richard Bruton, in regard to overdoing it and particularly in regard to oversight and accountability. The very reason the Department in charge of An Garda Síochána has been consistently behind the curve on Garda issues is that the Policing Authority apparently needs more power. A lack of adequate oversight and accountability is the reason that An Garda Síochána ignored the Policing Authority on its first test in regard to this issue and will continue to ignore it unless it is given those extra powers.

It is the reason that those who think the solution to this is to call for heads are wrong. A few heads rolled in the lifetime of the previous Government, including the former Minister for Justice and Equality and the former Garda Commissioner. Any reading of the Fennelly report will show how hasty we were to seek the head of the previous Garda Commissioner. It did not change the culture. There was a chance to change the culture when appointing the replacement for that commissioner but the Government did not take it.

The role of the Department in its management and its functions in regard to An Garda Síochána has to be looked at. The Department of Justice and Equality is too big. There is too much going on there. There needs to be complete reorganisation and reform of the Department and its role in policing. If we are going to introduce real reform, there may be a need for a Minister for An Garda Síochána who would be directly responsible for guiding An Garda Síochána through the next number of years. The Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald, is in here one night introducing legislation on property, the next night she is in dealing with An Garda Síochána and the night after that she is in dealing with legalising workers. It is ridiculous. She does not have enough Ministers of State to do that. The role of the Department needs to be reformed.

I fully support Deputy John Curran's point that the Minister should have attended the conference of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors, AGSI. This year in particular, the gardaí on the street needed endorsement and support from the Minister and the Government. Let us not forget they are having enormous success at the moment in terms of drugs, gangland crime and on-the-ground work. They do not feel that they are receiving support from the Government. The Minister had the opportunity to go and listen.

Deputy Frances Fitzgerald

I was here.

Deputy Dara Calleary

The Minister was not here yesterday and she was not here this morning. This is not a personal attack but she needs to talk to someone in her diary office.

The Minister spoke about the courage to cry halt and to embrace and contribute to reform. Her own Department needs to show some of that courage.

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

I thank all Members of the House who contributed to the debate. I have listened closely to them. I will not address the areas where there is agreement but will refer to the two areas where I think there is disagreement with the motion.

The Government said that passing this motion would constitute interference with the independence of the Policing Authority. With all due respect to the Government, I disagree with that approach. Since last January, the Policing Authority has been given very specific powers in respect of the Garda Commissioner. It was given the power to recommend the Commissioner's removal and to be consulted if the Government is planning to remove the Garda Commissioner. As a result of that, there is a clear statutory basis for the Minister to consult with the Policing Authority. The Minister has stated she consults the Policing Authority on the implementation of the report of the Garda Inspectorate. It is completely artificial to think that the Minister cannot consult the Policing Authority on an issue of fundamental importance to the people of Ireland regarding the policing services provided by An Garda Síochána.

Members of the Opposition stated that Fianna Fáil is copping out by not tabling a motion of no confidence in the Garda Commissioner. Under law, only a Government can remove a Garda Commissioner. Section 11 of the An Garda Síochána Act provides that a Garda Commissioner can be removed if he or she is in dereliction of his or her duty, for stated misbehaviour or if it is in the best interests of An Garda Síochána. That a Garda Commissioner has lost the confidence of Dáil Éireann is not a ground for his or her removal. That the arithmetic in Dáil Éireann means that the Government should remove a Commissioner is not a ground for his or her removal. If that happened, we would be asking Mr. Justice Fennelly to come out of retirement for a second time to inquire into the removal of a Garda Commissioner by the Government. It is very important that, as responsible politicians, we put forward credible proposals in respect of which this House has power. One of the reason the House gets itself into difficulty is because we take on roles which we do not have the power to exercise. We do not have the power to declare that we have no confidence in important public officials. If we start doing it in respect of the Garda Commissioner, why do we not start doing it in respect of a Garda sergeant or a school principal? The next person to be listed for a motion of no confidence would be the Director of Public Prosecutions. We would start down a slippery slope if we got involved in that type of issue.

I note that Sinn Féin stated today that the Fianna Fáil motion was an attempt to gazump its motion. That is not the purpose of the Fianna Fáil motion. This is a very serious matter and it would have been deeply surprising had we not put forward a motion in respect of it. We considered it. We decided not to go for the populist approach but rather think of the important improvements that can be made to An Garda Síochána. It is for that reason that we tabled the motion and it was regrettable that Sinn Féin sought to stop this House from debating in broad terms the Garda issue, which is of huge importance to the people.

Sinn Féin described Fianna Fáil's motion as cowardly. It is inappropriate for Sinn Féin to criticise any group for being cowardly in its dealings with An Garda Síochána. If Sinn Féin Members want to have a discussion about cowardly treatment by groups of members of An Garda Síochána, I will have that discussion with them and will start by referring to a number of brave gardaí who gave their lives in defending the country.

Amendment No. 2 put

Deputy Jim O'Callaghan

Vótáil.

An Ceann Comhairle

In accordance with Standing Order 70(2), the division is postponed until the weekly division time on Thursday, 13 April 2017.

The Dáil adjourned at 10.05 p.m. until 12 noon on Wednesday, 12 April 2017.