Dáil Éireann debate -
Tuesday, 24 Oct 2017

Vol. 960 No. 7

Catalonia: Statements

Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade (Deputy Simon Coveney)

Ireland's concern at developments in Catalonia is evident and is reflected in today's statements. I know that some Members of this House have also visited Catalonia, including recently, and their perspectives contribute to our consideration of the situation there. Irish people know Spain well. After Britain, it is the country that we travel to most. Cities and towns across Spain are home for many Irish people. In addition, some 1.8 million visits were made to Spain from Ireland during 2016. A growing and welcome element of this traffic is connected with the increasing number of Spaniards visiting and living in Ireland.

What happens in Catalonia and Spain clearly matters to all of us in this House and in the communities that we represent. Tensions are running high but we must not lose sight of the fact that the Spain that we know well is an established democracy where citizens have full rights protected by the rule of law. In any democracy, political developments must take place within a legal framework. This is not a procedural point. This is a fundamental requirement if the rights of all citizens are to be protected. Respecting the rule of law, its possibilities and protections but also its limits, is not a choice but an obligation. The resolution of the current crisis needs to be within Spain's constitutional framework, through Spain's democratic institutions. The freedom to express contesting views is an essential check and balance in any democracy.

However, differences of opinion must be contested with full respect for the law and the rights of all citizens. This is the foundation that underpins and protects modern democratic societies and indeed the functioning of the EU. We can disagree with and work to change the law but we cannot ignore the law as it stands or act beyond it.

We are all familiar with the vote in Catalonia on 1 October. I share the dismay felt by many people in Ireland and elsewhere at the disturbing clashes and injuries. Let me reiterate that violence has no place in politics. In Catalonia, and elsewhere in Spain, as in all our democracies, public representatives and all citizens must work to advance their goals within democratic institutions such as parliaments with full respect for the law. Clearly, any decision on a question as important as independence requires legitimacy. It requires legitimacy both in terms of the broadest possible political consensus and in terms of a sound legal framework. On that basis, the referendum vote of 1 October cannot be accepted as legitimate. I do not believe that it provides the basis for a declaration of independence. The holding of this referendum was ruled illegal by Spain's constitutional court. It is clear, including from the massive gatherings that we have seen in Catalonia, that many there support independence but we also know that there are many others who do not. In early September, a small majority of the regional Catalan Parliament voted through referendum and transition legislation in controversial circumstances. Those in parliament opposed to the measures, who made up nearly half the region's parliamentarians, argued that the legislative process breached the parliament's own procedures and was illegal. Spain's constitutional court later ruled the legislation illegal. It is political dialogue rather than escalating tensions that we all want to see but dialogue needs to respect the constitution of Spain, the rights of all citizens of Spain and the regional and national parliamentary institutions that represent them. Any political action outside of that framework lacks legitimacy and cannot claim to respect the plurality of opinion across Spain.

I am conscious that there have been many calls for external involvement in the resolution of this matter, particularly after the violence that occurred on 1 October. However, the Government's position is that in Spain, as in any other country in the EU, internal political and constitutional arrangements are the prerogative of a country and its people and should be determined by them through the institutions of the country and in accordance with the rule of law. Internal divisions, contesting aspirations and robust debates are to be expected in any democracy but they have to be resolved in keeping with the rule of law. Constitutions can be changed, as we know, but this has to happen in a constitutional way. I, therefore, welcome the cross-party support in the Spanish Parliament for the establishment of a committee to consider the issue of constitutional reform, which may address some of the current concerns.

I am very concerned at the impact on people’s lives that the political uncertainty has given rise to, including the decisions of more than 1,000 companies to transfer their corporate headquarters out of Catalonia. I am also dismayed at reports of fractures within families and communities to which this divisive issue is giving rise. The validity and legitimacy of political effort requires, as I have said, securing the broadest possible consensus within the law. Citizens also deserve the certainty that the rule of law extends to them. This is why I remain of the view that it is for all Spaniards - all Catalans and all Spaniards - to arrive at a shared view on what steps within their laws and their own democratic institutions might best support a process towards a resolution. Clearly, this is proving very difficult. The decision taken by the Spanish Government to apply Article 155 of the constitution marks a significant point. Nonetheless, there still remains an opportunity for engagement. We hope that leaders take the necessary steps to return to the space where differing views are contested through national and regional democratic institutions with full respect always for the law and the rights of citizens. Upholding the constitution and the rule of law in all its aspects is a key underpinning of all democracies. Ireland respects the constitutional and territorial integrity and unity of Spain. The Government's position remains that the constitutional and political arrangements in Spain are matters to be determined by its own citizens though its own institutions in keeping with its own laws.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I welcome those in the Public Gallery, particularly the Spanish ambassador, representatives from Spain and visitors from Catalonia who are showing a particular interest in the debate this afternoon. I am acutely conscious that we are discussing an issue that is a very sensitive, legal and constitutional matter for the Spanish Government, its people and the region of Catalonia. This is important as I do not believe that it is appropriate for any party here in the Dáil to attempt to manipulate or pretend that there is a simple solution to what is a very volatile and complex situation in Spain. We would not appreciate it if members of the Spanish Parliament tried to lecture us on what was or was not legal in Bunreacht na hÉireann. With the impact of social media and recent coverage, there is a risk of an over-simplification of what is happening in Spain and in Catalonia. We must delve into a deeper analysis and try to encourage a legal pathway and process for the people of Catalonia. This will only be facilitated with the agreement of the Spanish Government. As a democratic country, we have to stand by legal and constitutional principles. It is only the people of Spain as a whole who can decide on their own constitution. We know this from our own Constitution and the many referenda we hold here.

As the Minister has outlined, Ireland has a very close relationship with Spain. Spain is very well known to us. There are nearly 2 million trips by Irish people to Spain every year and many thousands of Spanish students spend their summers here and get to understand our culture and country. We share many traits. Like us, Spain has had a diverse and proud history. All of this feeds into the passionate beliefs on both sides of the Catalonia-Spain divide. Catalonia has been part of Spain since the 15th century and Catalan identity has always been part of Spanish cultural history. Initially, it was very tightly integrated into Spanish identity but in the middle of the 19th century, there was a renewed sense of Catalan identity. Catalans have their own language in addition to Spanish and under Catalan law, all teachers, doctors and public sector workers are required to use Catalan as well as Spanish. When Spain became a republic in 1931, very soon after our own independence, Catalonia was given broad autonomy until the horrific years of General Franco, whose regime suppressed and revoked Catalan autonomy. The use of the language was also restricted. After Franco's death and many years later, the Spanish Government allowed Catalonia to reinstate its own parliament and executive and the region has extensive autonomy. There are approximately 17 regions in Spain that have various levels of autonomy.

While Catalonia is one of the wealthiest regions in Spain, it is now one of the most indebted and had to go through many austerity measures since the global collapse in 2008. Since that very difficult economic time, the calls for independence have increased. Many citizens in Catalonia believe that region pays an awful lot of taxes to central government in Madrid and gets very little in return. It is one of the most industrial regions in Spain, has become the home of the chemical industry in Spain and also specialises in the service sector, food processing, banking and manufacturing, particularly textiles.

In 2010, the Spanish constitutional court set limits to the people's or the executive's call for "nationhood". In my view, this has - naturally, some would say - fuelled further calls for increased sovereignty and independence. However, it was a ruling of the Spanish constitutional court and that cannot be selectively interpreted or ignored.

As fellow constitutional democrats, we know how different calls for independence are dealt with. We saw in recent years the long and detailed process the Scottish Parliament went through to allow a referendum on independence which was narrowly defeated in 2015. The media have rightly highlighted the most recent referendum and the violence that took place over three weeks ago. Anybody who was watching the reports was appalled by the unnecessary high-handedness of the Spanish police. The injuries are to be condemned and are unacceptable. I welcome that Prime Minister Rajoy has admitted mistakes were made at that time. We cannot ignore the fact the referendum was not legal under the Spanish constitution. It was not a referendum such as we would have in Ireland because before it was taken and right up to polling day the Spanish Government was at pains to point out it was unconstitutional and therefore illegal.

Public opinion is divided on seeking independence in Catalonia. The percentage of people who voted in the referendum was just over 40%. While the majority voted for independence, the number that did not vote cannot be ignored. We have to put the turnout in context. It is very unfortunate that following the recent referendum there seems to be a stand-off between the Spanish Government and the Catalan regional Government. While independence may be what many citizens want, it will be properly achieved only through consultation and agreement with the Spanish Government. Many in Catalonia want to remain in Spain. It ill behoves any group or party, in Spain or outside, to try to dictate otherwise. It will only add to and increase existing tensions. It would be a retrograde step to jeopardise the current regional autonomy and may allow the situation to be inflamed. It is only Spanish citizens who can determine their preferred constitutional and political arrangements through their own democratic institutions. Free and fair legal elections in Catalonia would allow people a truly democratic mechanism to express their views and reaffirm their right to have a say in how Spain and Catalonia proceed. A unilateral exit by Catalonia from Spain will only have negative social, political and legal ramifications. I and my party believe that a peaceful pathway with external assistance, if necessary, will achieve a non-violent resolution by all sides.

The next number of days are critical and the path ahead uncertain. We have been calling for all sides to show restraint and to refrain from actions or words that would only serve to aggravate the situation further. Support therefore should be given to efforts that encourage dialogue and facilitate the stabilisation of existing relationships. As a country that has experienced its own conflict, we know first hand how important support, dialogue and diplomacy are in such trying times and the benefits that dialogue can bring. Our history shows us that even in the most difficult situations compromise can be reached. The European Union and its institutions, where practical and feasible, should use its influence to try to de-escalate tension in the country. The stability of Spain is in all our collective interests and in the collective interest of every citizen of the European Union.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Tuigim go bhfuil an Teachta Adams ag roinnt a chuid ama leis an Teachta Crowe.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Cuirim fáilte fosta roimh ár gcuairteoirí. Tá nasc stairiúil maith idir mhuintir na hÉireann agus mhuintir na Spáinne agus na Catalóine. I also want to welcome our visitors to the Public Gallery. There are longstanding links between the people of Spain, Catalonia and Ireland. Sinn Féin appreciates and celebrates those links. The dispute between the people of Catalonia and the Spanish state over independence will only be resolved through dialogue. Thus far the Spanish Government is refusing to open a dialogue without the Catalans acquiescing to pre-conditions, including an acceptance that any talk of independence is illegal under Spanish law. That is the wrong approach. I make no apologies for saying it. It was not that long ago it was illegal to expound a united Ireland or anti-partitionist view. The crisis has deepened so the refusal by the Spanish Government to embrace dialogue is justified by it on the premise that these issues are an internal matter for the Spanish state. That is echoed by some of the comments made here today. It is exactly the pretext that was used by the British state for decades to prevent the scrutiny of British rule in the North. The international community, especially the European Union, must directly engage with the Spanish and Catalan Governments and seek to broker a mediation process to hammer out an agreement that is democratic and peaceful and which avoids conflict. Any refusal to do this puts at risk the possibility of reaching a peaceful solution to a very complex situation.

The Taoiseach has said in the Chamber that he supports the need for dialogue and negotiations. He has also said he would put his views and concerns directly to Spanish Prime Minister Rajoy at an appropriate time. The European Council meetings at the end of last week provided such an opportunity. The Taoiseach or Minister should outline the approach the Taoiseach took. Did the Taoiseach promote the imperative of dialogue as a means of addressing the problems, as he said he would here? Did he speak directly to the Spanish Prime Minister on this matter as he committed to do? He did that without being asked; he volunteered to do it. Did he impress upon Prime Minister Rajoy the view of the Irish Government that inclusive talks present the best way forward? If it is the view of the Irish Government, one would presume it would seek to promote that view.

We know dialogue works and we know the broad principles that are involved. A process must be inclusive with all parties treated as equals and all mandates respected. They are the principles that worked in our situation. All issues must be on the agenda and nothing agreed until everything is agreed. There should be no preconditions and no vetoes. Participants should be prepared to take risks to engage in initiatives. That is a matter for the respective parties. There should be no predetermined outcome and no attempt to preclude any outcome. There should be a timeframe. The role of the international community is vital because international experience shows the participation and encouragement of international actors in any process of negotiation and mediation can be the difference between success and failure.

I will make the point on our Government and Taoiseach again. Did the Taoiseach impress on those at the European Council meeting the notion that dialogue is the only way to resolve the crisis? Could we be given an account of how he did it? That is a very modest thing to do given the broad acceptance everywhere that we Irish have at least resolved matters. We did it through talking. Have we persuaded others to do that?

Deputy Seán Crowe

Like other speakers, I welcome the guests to the Public Gallery. It is good that people are sitting down together. The argument we are putting forward is that people do not only need to sit together, they also need to talk. I have previously raised with the Minister my deep concerns that in the build up to the independence referendum in Catalonia on 1 October there were unprecedented attacks on fundamental rights and civil and political liberties. I do not have the time to go into the background. The Minister is familiar with it. I wrote to him and tabled parliamentary questions. I also wrote to his predecessor on the issue.

On 1 October many of our worst fears were confirmed when we saw horrific incidents of police brutality against peaceful citizens who were simply trying to vote. Over 900 people were injured in this crackdown on democracy. Incredibly, the Spanish Minister for foreign affairs, who appeared on "The Andrew Marr Show" on Sunday, said the images of police violence in Catalonia were fake news. The Deputy Prime Minister said the police violence was proportionate. Does the Minister, Deputy Coveney, believe the Spanish police response was proportionate and acceptable? If he believes it was unacceptable, will he tell his Spanish counterpart this?

We know there are clashing interpretations of the Spanish constitution relating to whether the referendum was legal or illegal. Since the referendum on 1 October, the Catalan Government has reached out to the Spanish state and requested dialogue and negotiation to find a peaceful resolution to their differences. For years, the Spanish Government has repeatedly avoided any dialogue on Catalonia's political demands on the grounds of legalistic arguments.

The Spanish state’s response to this peaceful, reasonable, and thoughtful approach has been one of aggression.

Last week, the head of the Catalan National Assembly, ANC, and the head of Òmnium Cultural, both popular pro-independence civil society organisations, were jailed without bail while their trial on sedition charges continues. Sedition is an extremely serious charge and they face up to 15 years in prison if convicted, yet it seems these same sedition charges were brought forward by the Spanish prosecutor simply because these men took part in peaceful protests in the build up to the 1 October independence referendum and on the day of the vote. I am deeply concerned that the Spanish High Court has jailed these civil society activists and that they are really being prosecuted for organising peaceful demonstrations. These two men should be released immediately.

Over the weekend, the Spanish Government initiated the procedure to suspend Catalan autonomy by invoking article 155 of the Spanish constitution. The Spanish Cabinet agreed to remove the President of Catalonia and all members of the Catalan Cabinet from their posts. Ministries in Madrid will control the management of the Catalan Administration, as well as directing the Catalan local police forces, and Catalonia’s public television and radio channels. The President of Catalonia has called it the worst attack on Catalan institutions since the dictator, General Franco, ordered the end of Catalonia's autonomy.

It is completely unacceptable that the Spanish Government is removing a democratically elected government because it is moving forward with policies for which it has a democratic and legitimate mandate. The current Catalan Government was elected on the promise of holding a binding democratic referendum on independence. There is a pro-independence majority in the Catalan Parliament. The vast majority of Catalans polled consistently want a binding referendum on independence.

In the face of the naked police brutality that we saw and crackdown by the Spanish police, 2.3 million Catalans, nearly 43% of the electorate, still came out to vote on 1 October. The Taoiseach has pointed to this in an attempt to delegitimise the referendum. However, we have had ten different referendums on constitutional amendments in this State with a lower voter turnout than the Catalan referendum, despite those referendums being unhindered, as the Catalan referendum was. We still respected the outcome of those votes.

I have also heard repeated statements that this is an internal matter for Spain. It is clear that what is happening in Catalonia is a matter for everyone who cares about democracy. The Spanish state’s actions are an unacceptable violation of European democratic values. Catalan public representatives democratically elected by citizens are being unilaterally removed by politicians from parties with minimal or no representation in the Catalan Parliament. This is not an internal matter; it is about people’s rights and aspirations.

In my opinion, the Government of Catalonia’s proposal for dialogue is sincere, but it is not compatible with the current repressive climate and rising tension. I urge the Spanish Government to take up this offer and to refrain from applying article 155 and removing the Catalan Government from its elected office. Dialogue is the way forward.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Before calling Deputy Howlin, I believe the House wishes me to welcome the Spanish ambassador and the Catalonians to the Public Gallery. Tá fáilte romhaibh.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

I will start by quoting a statement from the Catalonian President with which I profoundly agree. Carles Puigdemont told his parliament on 10 October:

The current moment is serious enough for everyone to assume their corresponding responsibility, and for the necessity to de-escalate tension and not to contribute to it, neither through word nor gesture...

[T]he way forward can be none other than through democracy and peace. That means respecting those who think differently, and finding a way to make possible collective aspirations, with the realisation that that requires a large dose of dialogue and empathy.

There was little enough dialogue or empathy shown by the Madrid authorities ten days previously, when they resorted to unacceptable tactics in their efforts to prevent the independence referendum. To those of us who live by the principles and practices of electoral politics, to see uniformed men smashing their way into polling stations and carrying away ballot boxes and polling papers is to see a form of secular sacrilege. Madrid’s tactics have made Madrid’s police force the natural enemy of many Catalonians. This was avoidable. It was, at best, heavy-handed and ham-fisted. I said at the time, and I repeat, that any violence against voters and polling station officials is unacceptable and unjustifiable. The subsequent escalation, which involved the use of plastic bullets and physical intimidation by the Spanish police, must also be condemned.

The Madrid authorities seem to be going out of their way to make the pro-independence parties more acceptable to their own people. They are creating support for independence at home and abroad. If they stick to this heavy-handed approach, then the police and the Spanish Government will only further inflame the dispute and strengthen the independence movement.

It is not good enough for the European Commission, looking only to the constitutional issue, to describe the crisis as an internal matter for the Spanish. All of us, as member states of the European Union, have an obligation to observe democratic principles in our dealings with all our citizens.

All that said, I also agree with those in this House and elsewhere who have called for dialogue and rapprochement. Life is more complicated than simply making a declaration. Touting simple solutions to complex issues can do real harm to real people. Apart from anything else, should a Catalonian universal declaration of independence include the administrative area of Aran? This small valley is in Catalonia but it is home to a separate Aranese population with its own history, its own capital and autonomous government, its own language, and even, because of its location, its own microclimate. Should the Aranese, all 10,000 of them, be allowed to secede from both Catalonia and from Spain, and set up their own state?

This debate has a particular resonance for us in this House. We are coming up to the centenary of the first meeting of Dáil Éireann, when our forebears addressed their message to the free nations of the world. We wanted our case on the agenda at the Versailles treaty talks. We insisted:

Nationally, the race, the language, the customs and traditions of Ireland are radically distinct from the English. Ireland is one of the most ancient nations in Europe, and she has preserved her national integrity, vigorous and intact, through seven centuries of foreign oppression: she has never relinquished her national rights, and throughout the long era of English usurpation she has in every generation defiantly proclaimed her inalienable right of nationhood down to her last glorious resort to arms in 1916.

The Catalonian separatists could repeat this language, almost word for word, perhaps citing fewer examples of resort to arms.

In the 1916 Proclamation, the existence of a significant unionist population on this island, with its own culture, tradition and religion, was only fleetingly and grudgingly referenced. It was described as "differences carefully fostered by an alien Government", which had divided a minority from the majority in the past, and to which we, the majority, should be oblivious. We were indeed oblivious to those differences for many decades, and the result was bloodshed and mayhem. As Senator McDowell commented at the weekend, no one was more strongly opposed to the unionists’ claim of entitlement to opt out of Ireland than those Irish nationalists who proclaimed the right to opt out of the United Kingdom.

Self-determination as a principle is unwieldy and can produce wildly unexpected results. When, for example, the European Union cobbled together principles for the international recognition as states of the various component parts of the collapsing Yugoslavia, it might have thought it was doing a good day's work.

However, the same principles were applied by Russia and the Government of Crimea to assert the latter's right to opt out of Ukraine and become part of Russia once again. To be clear, there was a referendum to determine the future status of Crimea in March 2014. It was organised by the Legislature of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea and by the local government of Sevastopol, both of which were subdivisions of Ukraine. The referendum requested local populations to decide whether they wanted Crimea to join Russia as a federal state. It was declared unlawful by the Ukrainian Government and the official result, as people will recall, was that more than 95% voted for integration of the region into the Russian Federation. The turnout was 80%. I do not believe that is the precedent Catalonians would want to follow. To this day, only Russia and ten other states recognise Crimea as part of the Russian Federation. Ukraine continues to claim Crimea as an integral part of its territory and is supported by most of the rest of the world, including in the form of UN General Assembly Resolution 68/262.

Before the Berlin Wall fell and when the Cold War was still being waged, the Helsinki Final Act, signed by the Conference on Security and Co-operation in Europe in 1975, was a major step forward towards normal and peaceful relations. Thirty five states, including the USA, the USSR and most of Europe signed a declaration in an attempt to improve relations between the then communist bloc and the West. The Declaration on Principles Guiding Relations between Participating States enumerated ten fundamental principles. All the principles are important, notwithstanding the fact that some of them may well, in practice, be in conflict. For example, the states of Europe are committed to non-intervention in each other's internal affairs as well as respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms and the equal rights and self-determination of peoples. Ireland signed the Helsinki Final Act even though at that time we had our own issues about recognising the inviolability of national frontiers. The Helsinki Accords significantly reduced Cold War tensions by recognising the frontiers in Europe and that they should be stable and could only change by peaceful internal means.

When we look at a country like Spain, many of us expect that all disputes can be settled by internal peaceful dialogue. Looking back on our own history, many would have expected no less of us. A commitment to self-determination - pure and simple - seems so right but to quote Orwell's Homage to Catalonia, "Hitherto, the rights and wrongs had seemed so beautifully simple." Real life is not so pure and never so simple. If this country has anything to teach the rest of Europe about these matters, it is that there is nothing inevitable about peace, there is nothing more important than dialogue and empathy and nothing so life-saving as negotiation and compromise.

We should not be taking sides in this dispute. I say that not because it is simply an internal Spanish matter but rather because we have a far greater interest in seeing this dispute peacefully resolved than we have in seeing one side victorious over the other. It is not international law that will settle this matter, although that is important. The legal rules about self-determination and the recognition of new states are still uncertain. Practice changed in 1991 and, as I have said, the change in practice produced at least one result that surprised most people.

Peaceful settlement is the only principle that matters. All other principles are subordinate. What is needed now is a commitment from both sides to mediation, dialogue and negotiation. I echo the words of Kofi Annan and The Elders, which include our own Mary Robinson, to the effect that the progress that Spain has made since its democratic transition in 1975 should not be put at risk. The potential political, economic and social repercussions of a protracted crisis should not be underestimated. Both sides must refrain from any more divisive and inflammatory language or actions. I join Kofi Annan, and I hope other Members will do so too, in urging the Spanish Government and the regional government of Catalonia to renew their commitment to a resolution of this conflict through dialogue and find a peaceful route out of this crisis.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I call Deputy Mick Barry.

Deputy Mick Barry

I wish to share time with Deputy Boyd Barrett.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

That is agreed.

Deputy Mick Barry

The decision of the Rajoy government to activate Article 155 and impose direct rule on Catalonia represents a major escalation of both repression and the crisis. It comes on top of the jailing of two leading civil society activists pending charges that could result in 15 years imprisonment for each. These two men are currently political prisoners facing a form of internment. It also comes in the aftermath of the police rampage against communities coming out to vote in the 1 October Catalan referendum, a rampage which resulted in 900 persons being injured and which shocked the world.

I am not the only one who has heard echoes of the Franco dictatorship in these events. I understand the Spanish ambassador is in the Gallery this evening and I would say to him, quite clearly, shame on the Spanish state for these actions. These actions represent not just an imposition-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to refrain from doing that. That is not parliamentary.

Deputy Mick Barry

Shame on the Spanish state.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

No, that is not correct.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I ask the Deputy to refrain from mentioning individuals.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

That is not appropriate. The Deputy mentioned the Spanish ambassador.

Deputy Mick Barry

I stand over my comments but I will proceed with my speech.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputy will do so provided he does not mention names-----

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

He did not mention a name.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

-----otherwise, I will have to intervene.

Deputy Mick Barry

These actions represent not just an imposition by a nationalist Spanish Government on the Catalan nation but also a clampdown on a mass movement for both national and social rights by a right-wing pro-austerity government. The actions of the Spanish state serve to confirm the observation of Friedrich Engels that the state, in the last analysis, can be reduced to armed bodies of men acting in defence of private property.

Furthermore, the events of recent weeks undermine the image the European Union likes to project of itself, namely, that it embodies modern European values such as liberty, democracy and progress. Tens of millions of European citizens have watched with a very critical eye as the Spanish state batters senior citizens, women and others off the streets while the grandees of the European Union sit in silence and only break that silence to offer excuses and justifications for the actions of their cousins in Madrid.

Esquera Revolucionària, the Catalan Marxist group, recently stated, "The justification that the PP and its government are merely applying the law cannot mask the fact that the law is unfair and undemocratic and goes directly against the aspirations of millions of Catalans they are trying to muzzle." In this sense, the savage repression of the Spanish state and its support for a fundamentally undemocratic political position, a denial of the right to decide, go hand in hand. The repressive actions of the Spanish state have been met with a magnificent mass movement of protest and resistance, including, to date, a student general strike, a workers general strike, demonstrations of people in their hundreds of thousands and one demonstration of more than 1 million individuals. The activation of Article 155 should provide the signal for a general strike of unlimited duration.

Socialists in Ireland will stand in solidarity with socialists in Catalonia who say that Catalonia is a nation and has a right to decide its own future, that the working class through the entire Spanish state must show solidarity and mobilise against this repression; that the future of Catalonia must be carved out by the masses who defined police repression to vote on 1 October and who made the general strike on 3 October, not by the Puigdemont government, which has wavered on declaring independence and which has imposed austerity on its own people; and that a Catalan socialist republic could abolish evictions, austerity cuts and mass joblessness among the young. It could do that if it put the wealth of Catalonia at the disposal of its people, starting with the introduction of strong capital controls and then socialising the 1,000 plus companies that have attempted to sabotage the republic by moving their corporate headquarters from Catalonia to elsewhere in the Spanish state. A Catalan socialist republic would guarantee minorities their full civil rights. It would aim in all its actions to unite all working people in Catalan society, namely, those who speak Catalan, those who speak Spanish, those who speak both and others.

Eighty years ago George Orwell penned his outstanding eye witness account of socialist revolution, Homage to Catalonia.

A socialist transformation of Catalonia today would put on the agenda not just the fall of the Rajoy government but also a challenge to capitalism throughout the whole of the Spanish state. Socialists will defend to the hilt the right of the Catalan people to decide their own future. We will defend this right hand in hand with the fight for socialist change in Catalonia, in the rest of the Spanish state and indeed throughout Europe.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I lived in Granada in Spain for a year. I have great love for Spanish culture and the Spanish people. However, I can do nothing but condemn in the strongest possible terms the outrageous repression, violence and brutality being meted out by the Spanish state against an entirely peaceful movement. I find it quite extraordinary that our Government along with the main Opposition party - Fianna Fáil, the Republican Party - are giving cover to the Spanish state and are providing excuses for it by talking about the need to operate through that state's constitutional order and its government's policies, which are specifically designed to crush a peaceful movement by force and if necessary through the use of violence and repression. That is the point. All this abstract "on the one hand and on the other hand" stuff masks the silence and failure of the political establishment in Ireland and Europe to call a spade a spade.

What has the Spanish state done in response to successive peaceful efforts on the part of the Catalonian people over many years to change the situation? They were not even initially about independence but were rather an effort to increase autonomy and to have a dialogue and votes to allow for self-determination. At every hand's turn, the Spanish state has sought to scupper that and to cut off any kind of peaceful approach to reform, enhanced autonomy or giving the people of Catalonia the right to democratic self-determination. Mr. Rajoy, in particular, has made his political career on trying to deny, crush, scupper and frustrate the peaceful efforts of the Catalonian people to exercise self-determination. Our Government just will not call it for what it is: sending in 6,000 paramilitary police; going without court orders to the headquarters of political parties in government and organising raids on them; arresting parliamentarians; arresting civil servants; raiding newspapers and printworks that produce newspapers; trying to scupper free debate; seizing 10 million ballot papers; seizing leaflets being produced that were pro-referendum or pro-independence; and using physical force and violence to prevent people from getting to ballot boxes. In the last couple of days there have been threats to use force to impose direct rule and disband a democratically elected government. Our Government sits by and does not condemn this.

Self-determination is an elementary principle. I think it is the first article of the UN charter. It is about freely determining, without external interference, the political status and to pursue the economic, social and cultural development of a people. By any definition, the people of Catalonia at least have a case as to having a cultural history, a national history and the right to express their view on the matter. However, the Spanish state and its constitution are saying, "Never. That is not on the agenda." In the same way, Britain for a very long time would have said to Ireland, "Sorry lads, there is no peaceful way to achieve this. We are not allowing it because it is our union and we will decide." This is a Spanish state that has a history of fascism and authoritarianism. We are seeing some of that authoritarian tendency articulated against a completely peaceful movement. What is surprising, in fact, is how peaceful the Catalonian movement still manages to be given the level of provocation, repression and violence and the denial of any sort of democratic avenue to the people.

The Irish Government and the Opposition should be condemning what the Spanish state is doing instead of giving cover for it. We should give a little bit of support to a peaceful movement regardless of our views on independence. We should just uphold basic principles of civil liberties, self-determination, democracy and the right of civil society actors to campaign for independence without being imprisoned for sedition. Could the Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade not do that?

Deputy Maureen O'Sullivan

I am sharing time with Deputy Joan Collins. A couple of years ago, I was in Barcelona at the invitation of Diplocat, with a number of Deputies and Senators. Diplocat is a public private partnership and is all about fostering dialogue and building relations between the citizens of Catalonia and other countries. They were looking for the active involvement of Catalan society in exchanging views and ideas in areas like government, business, culture and education. It was all about promoting a fairer, more peaceful, democratic and sustainable world. We met a number of Catalan stakeholders including political parties, civil society and members of the Government of Catalonia. Those meetings were open and frank. We met people who were pro-independence and those who were against it. We met those who were in favour of a more federal type system of government that would respect the culture, identity and ethnicity of all of the regions. Since then, I have met a number of other Catalan leaders and communities. One thing that came across was that they were very proud of the relationship between Ireland and Catalonia.

The constitutional court handed down a ruling declaring that the law of consultations approved by the Parliament of Catalonia was unconstitutional. That law was approved by 106 MPs in favour and 28 against. That shows support for a law that would have created the possibility for government to hold non-binding consultations to seek citizens' opinions on a topic of general interest. The consultation would not have been legally binding, yet the constitutional court still thought it was not relevant or pertinent to ask citizens their opinions on these matters.

I admit if I were non-Catalan and a Spaniard, I think I probably would not want to see a break-up of Spain because no doubt it would be followed by other regions such as the Basque region or Galicia. However, the question has to be asked as to why there is this desire for self-determination. Why has it arisen now particularly? It does come back to the central Government in Madrid not being willing to engage in that dialogue that we all think is so very important. Under international law, as others have stated, sovereignty is a most important foundation. Although this is a sovereign question for Spain, the situation has been worsened by what we can only describe as bully-boy tactics from Madrid fuelled, I think, by the shortage of a democratic tradition in Spain's history. We in Ireland have moved past our civil war politics but I think it is a different matter in Spain. There is no doubt that some commentators have seen elements of Francoism in this. Madrid appeared to be resisting democracy and it is certainly not helping those Catalan people who want to remain in the Spanish state.

We were all horrified by what we saw. We were horrified by the repression that took place when people tried to exercise the democratic right to vote, regardless of whether that vote was legitimate and regardless of our opinions on that question. We have the report from accredited, experienced election observers who saw numerous and repeated violations of civil and human rights. It was clear to them that there was a centrally orchestrated, military-style operation that had been planned carefully. There were armed, masked officers coming into polling stations trying to prevent a peaceful, democratic process. The observers also noted the very peaceful nature of the Catalan people.

That violence and repression really shows how we do not learn from history. We know from history that repression only fuels and hardens those who are being repressed. We saw it in our own history in 1916. Prior to the executions in 1916, everybody wanted Home Rule but after them it was a very different matter. It is very likely that those Catalans who did not want independence will be hardened in their attitude and will be joining the pro-independence movement. We could look at the example from Scotland. Although there are historic differences between the two countries, it is the same principle. What we saw in Scotland was dignified debate. The two sides - "Better Together" and "Yes Scotland" - could debate all of those issues. It goes back to the right to self-determination as a principle in international law. The EU only saw that as applying to states that are already recognised as independent.

The European Court of Justice has ruled that Article 1 of the charter guarantees the right of self-determination to states that are not yet independent. The history of Catalonia, dating back to Ferdinand and Isabella, is a difficult one but there is no doubt but that Catalonia has a separate culture, identity and language regardless of that legal standing internationally. The Minister referred to the need for political dialogue. Fine Gael as a member of the European People's Party, EPP, of which the ruling party in Spain is also a member, is in a unique position to advance that dialogue. It is only through dialogue and people engaging and listening in an atmosphere of mutual respect that these issues can be resolved in a peaceful manner.

Deputy Joan Collins

I read the Minister's speech. All things being equal, it would have been a reasonable speech but for the actions of 1 October, which changed things drastically. People around the world were rightly shocked to see a modern state, a member state of the EU, use brutal police violence to stop EU citizens in Catalonia from exercising their right to vote in a referendum called by the Catalan regional government. They were shocked to hear of the raids of political activists, organisers and media organisations. On the day on which the declaration of independence was expected, people were fearful of returning to their homes lest they would be raided at night. This is the type of fear that is being generated throughout Catalonia within the pro-independence movement.

The silence of Brussels on this disgraceful episode was deafening. Where there have been some general rejections of violence, including by the Taoiseach, and general talk of the need for dialogue, this was a fudge. It completely ignored what happened on the day, which changed things. The violence was not general. It came from one side only, namely, the Civil Guard on the order of the Spanish Government. The violence by the Spanish state should have been condemned, with no beating around the bush. Similarly, general talk of the need for dialogue is mealy-mouthed as it was the Rajoy Government that refused to talk. Its refusal to engage in dialogue should be condemned without equivocation.

As in the case of the independence referendum in Scotland, this issue raises the issue of the position of the EU on the right of nations to self-determination. This right is a key part of the UN's charter on human rights. It has the status of international law and, therefore, can be viewed, legally, as part of EU law even though there is no direct reference to it in the EU treaties. This is an issue the EU must deal with. A second referendum will take place in Scotland at some point in the future. A hard Brexit can quickly change the mood in Scotland.

There is now a crisis in Spain brought about by the intransigence of the political elite in Spain. The brutal attempted repression of the referendum will no doubt increase support for the independence in Catalonia. The imposition of direct rule will not resolve the issues, rather it will increase polarisation. This morning, I listened to teachers, fire-fighters and Catalan police state they will not accept the rule of law of Spain and that they are governed by the Catalan regional parliament. As we know in this country, the national question is not easily resolved. It is a complex issue. One person's right to self-determination can often mean the denial of the same right to another. It is not just a matter of law, whether national, EU or international. It is also not just a matter of who has a majority, even in a democratic vote. Those who believe a Border poll in Ireland will resolve the issue here are ignoring the reality of the past 100 years, never mind the period of the so-called Troubles.

The Government and this Parliament should without equivocation condemn the actions of the Spanish Government and the use of police violence and repression against peaceful citizens of the EU. We must condemn the arrest and imprisonment of Catalan politicians and activists for expressing their legitimate political views and their right to assemble on the streets of Spain. We must condemn the imposition of direct rule and the overthrow of the democratically-elected Catalan regional government and should call on the Spanish Government to immediately engage in dialogue without preconditions and with mutual respect for the Catalonian people.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I warmly welcome the ambassador to the Public Gallery. I am aware that this is the opposite of what was done earlier by some of my colleagues but I want to try to make up for what was said earlier because I did not like or agree with it. The ambassador is here to represent people. I emphasise forcefully he is there democratically and he is entitled to be there.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I was critical earlier of those who were criticising the ambassador-----

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

The Leas-Cheann Comhairle does not want anybody to praise him either.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have to be balanced.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I appreciate that. I am only trying to balance the book.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

Good man.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

This situation is, of course, regrettable. None of us were happy to see the violence and clashes shown on our television screens. I acknowledge and welcome the Minister's reference in his speech to there being no place in a democracy for violence. They are wise words and it is important they are put on the record of the Dáil. It is also important that in this situation politics and negotiation work. I have great regard for my colleagues in the Sinn Féin Party and all the other parties that worked for many years to bring about a resolution to the difficulties we had in Ireland. We have proved that politics, negotiations and agreements can work. As a result of that work, lives are being saved every day. We would like to see similar compromises and agreements between the Catalonian people and the Spanish Government.

I welcome this debate as it provides us with an opportunity to thrash out this issue and allows people to express their views. Nobody should be derogatory of one side or the other. We should seek compromise and agreement on a framework for the future. I could not let this opportunity pass without acknowledging that for 28 years my late mother spent three months of every winter in Spain. She made many great friends there and was thought of very highly. That is my affiliation and association and people can take what they like from that information.

I reject violence and clashes in the streets. I want to see people negotiating, taking the lead from other parts of Europe that have had difficulties and resolved them through dialogue and politics. That is the proper thing to do. Hopefully, there will be a resolution to the current difficulties in the near future.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I too welcome the opportunity to contribute to this debate. I issue a fáilte Uí Cheallaigh to the Spanish ambassador and his colleagues. Irish ambassadors all over the world expect and get respect in the vast majority of countries. We must keep diplomatic channels open at all times and engage with that process.

Catalonia, of which Barcelona is the capital city, has more than 7.5 million inhabitants. It is a well known fact that the region has traditionally been one of the most dynamic industrial and innovative areas of Spain. It is with immense sorrow that we witnessed the increasing escalation of hostilities between the central government and the governing authorities and people of Catalonia. The violence and protests are deeply disturbing and are increasingly pushing the country into something that could be akin to a mini civil war. As people who witnessed similar events here from 1969 up to a number of years ago, in respect of which there is still some baggage hanging around, we do not want to see that happen in any country. At the end of the day, it is the ordinary people who suffer. Sin an scéal i gconaí.

It is the ordinary people - the man or woman on the street, the ordinary shopkeeper, small businessman or farmer - and their children who suffer. While Members can appreciate the desire of the Spanish Government to impose respect for the constitutional process, we can also sympathise with the deeply felt desire of the Catalonian people for self-determination and are well aware of such desire because of Ireland's centuries-long struggle for independence.

The events in Catalonia are part of a much wider process engulfing Europe and the western world. People are sick, sore and tired of being dictated to by central governments. That has been the case in Ireland. That was obvious when the banking situation was discussed earlier in the House and the Government showed it is totally out of touch and supports those in the banking sector at the expense of ordinary people. Does the Government expect people to lie down? One can only kick a dog so many times before it will get up and bark and bite. A movement for increased self-determination is also under way in Lombardy and Veneto in Italy.

I qualify my sympathy and support for the Catalonian people by saying that any violence committed by either side of the conflict must be rightly condemned. Members saw the reactions at polling booths to polling going ahead. I was horrified to see the ferocity involved and people arriving with sledges, axes and other equipment to break down polling booths and tear people out of them. It is hard to believe that could happen in a modern-day society such as Spain. It must be condemned, as must violence on any side. The Minister will condemn that because no Member of this House condones such conduct.

There has been an almost total focus on the action of the Spanish authorities. However, Peter Preston noted in an article for The Guardian newspaper that the head fact checker for the El Objective television show claimed many pictures purporting to be of the Catalan demonstrations were faked. The fact checker produced web pictures of bleeding protesters that went viral but were actually from a miners’ strike that took place five years previously. A photo of a woman who had allegedly had all her fingers broken was misrepresentative and the woman did not have broken fingers. It was alleged that a six year old boy had been paralysed by police brutality but that did not happen, thank God. We need facts, not fake news. People can use the internet to portray a certain perspective of events to the public. We need to bear that in mind in assessing the impact of the situation in Catalonia on Europe as a whole.

Respect for the democratic process must be the winner. The Minister said that in any democracy political developments must be placed within a legal framework, which is a fundamental requirement, not a procedural point because if the rights of all citizens are to be protected, respect for the rule of law, its possibilities, protections and limits is an obligation, not a choice. I agree with that. I also note that the Minister said we can disagree with the law and work to change it but we cannot ignore or act beyond it.

On behalf of the Rural Independent Group, comprising Deputy Michael Healy-Rae and me among others, I hope an outcome to the crisis can be reached sooner rather than later. Perhaps a fellow Tipperary man, former Member of the House, former diplomat and iarSheanadóir, Dr. Martin Mansergh, could help because he has gone to many parts of the world, was very involved in the peace process in Northern Ireland, as members of Sinn Féin will acknowledge, and is respected by all sides. We need people with cool heads and those who will respect the law and ensure there is a culture of respect for the law by all sides and people. I hope the Minister will be able to lend his support to that. Ireland is a peace-loving nation that has contributed peacekeepers and other services all over the world and it will be able to help in some way. Catalonia will, hopefully, return to peace, a solution and a bóthar díreach amach of the impasse will be found and Catalans will be able to get back to raising their families and carrying out their work in a peaceful, pragmatic manner while respecting the values of all sides.

Deputy Eamon Ryan

I appreciate the chance to comment on this amazingly critical issue within the European Union for the people of Catalonia and Spain. We must be careful in terms of giving advice and taking sides because of the details, complexity and the passions on various sides of the argument in Catalonia and Spain. If outsiders were discussing our future sovereignty or the management of our constitutional affairs we would be very sensitive to a lack of understanding of that complexity.

I reiterate the advice of European Green Party leaders such as Philippe Lamberts, MEP, who said earlier today that the European Union, of which Ireland is a member and the relevant council of which the Minister is a member, should seek to promote mediation as best it can rather than taking sides. That can only be done if parties are not seen to have a pre-conceived notion of how the mediation will go before entering it. Aware of the need for calm heads, we are looking for the Spanish Government to refrain from suspending Catalonian autonomy and in turn calling on the Catalan Parliament to refrain from declaring unilateral independence and for its leadership to return to the Senate session in Madrid which is to take place this Thursday or Friday to open the possibility of dialogue. If the leaders of the Catalan Administration went to that session there is a good chance the Spanish Prime Minister would also attend and the process of dialogue that is clearly needed would be started.

I read the Minister's speech with interest and agree with his fundamental argument that one has to respect constitutional rights and the law. Irish people understand how the loss of respect for the law can signal approaching national self-determination. It is interesting that during the War of Independence or the wider process of seeking independence from Britain the real moment of independence was not the use of physical force but, rather, when we set up our own constitutional courts. That was when there was a defining sense that British rule no longer applied because we did not recognise or respect their law. Irish people also recognise that process began when the public responded to physical violence by the British state, which accelerated the process towards not recognising the constitutional right of the British Government to have any influence on our determination. In that context, I join other Members in recognising the obvious but important point that the exercise of violence by the Spanish police during the referendum in Catalonia was a very self-defeating action. All Members understand how that can inflame matters and change the sense of what is constitutionally correct.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien suggested that elections might be part of the process of calming matters down. Elections may form part of the imposition of the article 155 process by the Spanish Government. Opposition leaders in the Catalan Parliament are similarly calling for elections as a way of trying to maintain a democratic process and stepping back from confrontation. That is a possible mechanism. I stand by the use of referendums even though they are difficult procedures at the best of times. They are not just the tool of the dictator as some have recently called them in public commentary.

My understanding is that there have been two referendums in Catalonia in recent years, both of which gave similar results in that approximately 2 million out of the 5.4 million registered voters voted for independence. Those opposed to independence argued at the time that supporters of their position should not turn up to vote. In these circumstances one runs into difficulties. Perhaps elections could be used as a way to find an alternative avenue for the wishes of the people in Catalonia on both sides of the independence argument in order that they have a voice and a level of representation which would be renewed on the basis of what has happened in the past few months. We can only imagine the repercussions this has had among the population of the area. Regarding the issue of referenda, the turnout and so on, it is interesting that this is occurring at a time when in some ways there is a questioning of our country's constitutional referendums. The reason the Good Friday Agreement referendum was so significant is that there was a turnout of 81% in the North and that 71%, a clear majority which had to reflect in some ways a significant proportion of both traditions in the North, supported the Agreement. I am nervous about the Taoiseach's commentary on this in recent times. People say it reflects on what the exact application of the Good Friday Agreement might be. I am just making the point that one must be careful about the interpretation or use of referendums and reflect on the numbers involved. Again I cite the example of the Good Friday Agreement; the turnout was relatively low in our jurisdiction. It was approximately 56%. That would probably be slightly higher than average for a normal referendum, but the fact that it was a 94% vote in favour of the Good Friday Agreement was hugely significant in allowing us to advance the peace process because there was such consensus. I use these examples to make the point that elections at this time could provide some space for mediation and dialogue rather than just an attritional fight between the Spanish Government and the Catalonian Administration.

I return to the simple call from the European Green Party. We have a very strong party in Catalonia, and our Spanish colleagues are very well known to us. As a European party, we are looking on and our key message is: step back from the brink, allow dialogue to occur, go to the Senate in Madrid in the coming days, step back from suspending Catalan autonomy, step back from the declaration of unilateral independence and, in a way that is hard for us to foresee and, as I said, would be wrong for us to pre-empt, whatever the outcome, try to slow this moment down to a moment of dialogue and discussion rather than a clash between the two sides in this incredibly complex and important debate.

Sitting suspended at 6.15 p.m. and resumed at 6.25 p.m.