Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 29 Nov 2017

Vol. 962 No. 4

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

People will have been concerned to learn that the assistant commissioner of the Dublin metropolitan region, Mr. Pat Leahy, has advised that no overtime is to be incurred other than in respect of Operation C-Port and Operation Hybrid. In his instruction, he declared in very stark language:

No other overtime is authorised and any operations intended on an overtime basis are hereby cancelled ... The Garda Budget for 2017 has been exhausted. All other operations, events, searches, arrest etc for the remainder of 2017, will be performed by the working units.

The Taoiseach might enlighten me on what the reference to "working units" means for policing capacity. Other Garda communications have referred to decommissioning burglary response units and reducing mobile patrols. The only people in the country who could possibly be pleased with this are criminals. Why incentivise them at this juncture?

According to the Garda Representative Association, it is simply not possible to police the State without overtime. The association has suggested that thefts and burglaries will increase over Christmas. It is worried that the cancellation of Garda overtime could have major implications for local feuds in Blanchardstown and Finglas, for security operations involving cash-in-transit escorts and retail takings and for public order and roads policing. Will we have enough gardaí to police the severe traffic congestion that is expected over the next six weeks and the drink-driving campaign? Why have drink-driving laws if we will not have gardaí to enforce them over the crucial Christmas period? We are getting reports that similar overtime bans are now being applied in Galway and Cork.

Can the Taoiseach explain how we have reached a point at which an assistant commissioner would issue a direction of this nature? I understand that the Select Committee on Justice and Equality will meet tomorrow to consider a Supplementary Estimate of €130 million.

Deputy Charles Flanagan

The meeting will take place tomorrow morning.

Deputy Micheál Martin

If enough money is available, it should not be the case in any national system that a declaration of this nature, with so many implications, is made. Did the Garda inform the Department of Justice and Equality that it intended to make this announcement to all gardaí across the country? Surely proper planning would dictate that something like this should not occur at this time of the year. I have a key question. Is the assistant commissioner aware that a Supplementary Estimate is coming before a Dáil committee tomorrow? Has the assistant commissioner already factored in that figure when considering the operational budgets of the force? Has the Garda, even with the knowledge of what it is going to get tomorrow, decided that an overtime ban will be needed in any event? I would like an answer to that question.

The Taoiseach

I thank the Deputy. I share the concerns about any ban on overtime in December. As the Deputy mentioned, December is a very busy period. Traffic is very heavy in the run-up to Christmas. There can be a spike in burglaries during this period because it is so dark and because many people tend to be out of their homes. Burglars also need money in the run-up to Christmas. There is often a spike in burglaries at this time.

I assure the House that there is funding for overtime in December. I can say that for a number of reasons. The Cabinet agreed yesterday morning that there will be a Supplementary Estimate for the Garda. That covers overtime. Tomorrow morning, the Select Committee on Justice and Equality will be asked to approve a Supplementary Estimate of €50.489 million under the pay subhead of the Department of Justice and Equality. That includes €42 million for overtime, which will bring the total Garda overtime budget for 2017 to €130 million. I think people will appreciate that €130 million is a very big budget for overtime.

This is happening at a time when the number of gardaí is increasing again. For example, approximately 200 trainee gardaí are scheduled to attest next month. This will increase Garda numbers to approximately 13,500 by the end of the year when projected retirements are taken into account. An additional 200 full-time gardaí will be available to police the State next month, which is December. In addition, the Supplementary Estimate will cover overtime.

It is important to say that almost all pay, including overtime, is paid a month in arrears. This is why I am also keen to understand yesterday's public announcement a bit better. December overtime would never have been paid from the 2017 budget. The Supplementary Estimate is for the 2017 period. While December overtime is worked in December, it is paid in January. This means that next month's overtime will come out of the 2018 budget. I would have hoped or assumed that Garda management would have been aware of that. Any overtime done in December comes out of the 2018 budget, which ,of course, is substantial.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

It is a "Dad's Army" job.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The Taoiseach has said he shares the concerns about this matter and needs to understand it a bit better. He has said he would have assumed that Garda management knew about these arrangements. This instruction was issued by an assistant commissioner on the basis that "the Garda Budget for 2017 has been exhausted". I think we need a better explanation of how this has happened within our security and policing system.

There is an issue at the heart of the administration of security and justice in the country. Something like this should not happen if sufficient funds are available. This needs to be resolved and we need to get answers because people's fears can be heightened in situations like these. The original question I asked the Taoiseach was whether an Garda Síochána had already factored the Supplementary Estimate, which will be provided tomorrow, into its budget and yet still finds itself short. It says here that much of the additional Supplementary Estimate is required as a result of the Labour Court agreement. Overtime is involved, but the cost associated with the implementation of the Labour Court agreement in respect of Garda pay is also a contributory factor as are the off-setting of additional requirements, departmental underspends and so on. It is not yet clear to me that what will be provided in the Vote tomorrow will cover the entirety of what An Garda Síochána needs. Otherwise I presume the assistant commissioner would not have given the instruction he gave to all stations and ranks across the Dublin metropolitan region.

The Taoiseach

The important thing is to assure the public that the State will be policed throughout December. The number of gardaí is increasing. We will have 200 more gardaí next month. Since 2014 we have seen the number of gardaí continuously increase. We will also have a recruitment campaign for the Garda Reserve next year. We are seeing an increased number of gardaí. With more gardaí joining the force and more gardaí on the streets, one would expect that the need for overtime would fall. Nonetheless, overtime will always be necessary for policing operations, although with increasing numbers of gardaí one would expect the need for overtime to decrease. To answer the Deputy's question, the Supplementary Estimate which will be voted through tomorrow with the agreement of the House provides additional funds for Garda overtime but, as I mentioned earlier, Garda overtime for December is paid out of the 2018 budget anyway, so no Supplementary Estimate is required for that. The very substantial €100 million Garda budget for 2018 covers it.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Is the money therefore owed already?

The Taoiseach

It is also important that we ensure Garda management is responsible and held to account for the way budgets are managed. If one has a budget of €100 million for overtime, one has to spread it out over a period of 12 months. There is a responsibility to do that. It is very easy to run out of funds for overtime in November if 9% of the budget is spent every month. Some 99% will have been spent by the end of November and the funds will run out. If 8.3% is spent every month, it will last the full 12 months. Therefore, Garda management have a responsibility to manage the overtime budget in such a way that the money does not run out. However, as I have said, there is a Supplementary Estimate going through tomorrow which will cover all of the overtime costs to the end of November. Funding for December, which as the Deputy knows starts next week, comes out of the budget for 2018 anyway. The 2018 budget for Garda overtime is €100 million.

Deputy Micheál Martin

The money is owed so.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I welcome the Taoiseach's commitment that there will be funding for Garda overtime. I am however very disappointed at the way he has handled the recent revelations about the dysfunction at the heart of our justice system. His Government refused to take appropriate actions which would have avoided all of the recent difficulties, not least for Sergeant Maurice McCabe and his family. In many ways the Taoiseach repeated the mistakes which Deputy Enda Kenny made when he was Taoiseach.

The Taoiseach will recall the fatal shooting of Garda Tony Golden, the serious wounding of Siobhán Phillips and the death by suicide of Crevan Mackin in Omeath on 11 October 2015. Crevan Mackin was arrested for possession of weapons and explosives and admitted to such possession. He was released without being charged with theses offences, despite some detectives knowing that he had access to four other weapons. It is believed he used one of these weapons to murder Garda Tony Golden and seriously wound Ms Phillips, whom he had also brutally beaten, before killing himself. In October 2015 I gave a file on these matters to the then Taoiseach, Deputy Kenny, and the then Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Frances Fitzgerald. I wrote to Deputy Kenny four times. I spoke to him directly on a number of occasions. I wrote to Deputy Fitzgerald eight times. I also spoke to her. I gave information to the senior Garda officer investigating the case and I wrote to GSOC. When Deputy Varadkar took over as Taoiseach I sent the same file to him. Like Deputy Kenny, the Taoiseach gave me no substantive response until I raised the issue with him here. The Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, has yet to reply to me. When I asked him informally about this case he said there was something seriously wrong and he committed to meeting with me. He has yet to do so.

The answer I received from the previous Taoiseach, from Deputy Varadkar and from the Minister for Justice and Equality is that an investigation and review of these tragic events is ongoing. There are no other suspects. There are no other lines of inquiry. The real issue is that Crevan Mackin was arrested for the possession of weapons and explosives and admitted to that. He was released without being charged with these offences despite some detectives knowing he had access to four other weapons. He used one of these weapons to murder Garda Tony Golden and injure Siobhán Phillips. It is not enough to say that processes are ongoing. This is about accountability or in this case, once again, the lack of accountability. I ask the Taoiseach and the Minister for Justice and Equality to speak to the acting Garda Commissioner as a matter of urgency. If the Taoiseach has read this file he will know the questions he should ask of the acting Garda Commissioner. I ask the Taoiseach to meet with the family of Siobhán Phillips and to establish a public inquiry as the family has requested.

The Taoiseach

Obviously the Deputy is free to criticise my handling of the events of recent days, as is anyone, but the basic approach I will always follow is that people should be given a fair hearing and that we should know all the facts before we rush to judgment. I appreciate fully that has never been the approach of Deputy Adams or his party. In the Sinn Féin view of the world people do not deserve a fair hearing, people are executed without trial and punished without getting a fair hearing. I will never operate on that basis. I will always ensure that allegations are taken seriously and are also properly investigated before we rush to judgment. I know that is the kind of approach which Maurice McCabe and his family would support and which should have always been followed in respect of the allegations which he made. It was certainly the approach which I followed when he came to me a number of years ago with allegations in respect of penalty points and with evidence to back them up. That is why on this occasion, before jumping to judgment, we should once again make sure that we know the facts and that allegations are taken seriously and are properly investigated.

As it stands with this case, there is an investigation under way. That investigation will not be carried out here in the Dáil, nor should it be. It should be carried out by the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC, which is the body set up and empowered by the Oireachtas to investigate complaints against An Garda Síochána. The GSOC investigation report is still awaited. We should allow that investigation to happen, get the report and then consider the outcome. That is the appropriate role for ourselves as politicians and for this House. I am advised by the Minister, Deputy Flanagan, that he would be happy to meet Deputy Adams today to discuss the matter further. It is very much my view, however, that we should allow GSOC to carry out its investigation. When we have a report, we can then consider it.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I did not ask that the investigation be carried out in the Dáil. The Taoiseach knows that. I asked him to do his job and to hold these agencies to account. Has the Taoiseach read the file?

The Taoiseach

Which file?

Deputy Gerry Adams

The file I sent him.

The Taoiseach

Yes.

Deputy Gerry Adams

Yes. So he does not think it warrants-----

The Taoiseach

I read all the letters the Deputy sends me. I make a point of it.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I am not so sure about that but if he has read the file, what is he going to do about it? What I have asked him to do is very precise, very simple and very straightforward. I have asked him to speak to the acting Commissioner as a matter of urgency. Forget about me and forget about taking a pot-shot at Sinn Féin. This is a serious issue. No one from the Government that I know of has spoken to the acting Commissioner, or indeed the former Garda Commissioner, on this issue. I am also asking the Taoiseach to meet with the family of Siobhán Phillips and to establish a public inquiry as requested by the family. This is about accountability and it is about leadership. The Taoiseach has said that the Minister will meet with me. That is what he said to me the last time.

The Taoiseach

There is a process under way. When people have complaints to make against An Garda Síochána, there is a body called the Garda Síochána Ombudsman Commission, GSOC. That body is responsible and empowered to carry out these investigations. We should allow it to carry out its investigation, allow for due process and allow GSOC to make its report. When it has made its report, we can then consider the findings and decide whether further action should be taken. I have no intention whatsoever of superseding that report by permitting a public inquiry.

I also have no intention of interfering in the work of the commission.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I did not ask the Taoiseach to do so.

The Taoiseach

It is not for us to adjudicate on allegations, meet different sides and then, without evidence, make judgments. We must ensure allegations, whether by whistleblowers or others, will be taken seriously and investigated appropriately. We should not allow the Oireachtas to become a court.

Deputy Gerry Adams

How can a Deputy make a case to the Taoiseach on behalf of a constituent?

An Ceann Comhairle

The Deputy will have to talk to the Taoiseach afterwards.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

It appears that agreement has been reached on a Brexit divorce bill of between €40 billion and €50 billion. We are told agreement has also largely been reached on citizenship issues. It seems, therefore, that two of the three phase 1 issues are approaching resolution and that only the Irish question remains to be decided. All we hear on that issue are generalities such as "seamless borders", "frictionless borders" and "technology solutions". Such phrases have popped up again and again, but they have little real meaning. During a ridiculous interview that he gave last night Iain Duncan Smith said there was a great deal of showboating. It is clear that significant efforts are being made by some to downplay the Irish issue. It is also clear that the Conservative Party in Britain, unsurprisingly, continues to have a very weak understanding of the Irish Border issue.

All Members understand there is a trade aspect to the Border, but many have expressed concerns that if things are allowed to advance to phase 2 without meaningful and clear commitments on the Irish question, we will lose our leverage. France, Germany and others have clearly prioritised the divorce bill and the rights of citizens. Now that these issues are close to being resolved, Irish concerns might be brushed aside. Technically, there is no veto during these talks as under law decisions will be made by qualified majority vote. We also know that the EU27 have so far indicated that Ireland will be allowed to hold what amounts to a veto on these matters. However, if that is the case, the Taoiseach must make a moral rather than a legal argument in order to hold the EU27 together and he will not be prepared to do so. When faced with implacable opposition, however, he will need to stand firm and not blink.

There is to be a Brexit stakeholder forum meeting tomorrow morning and there are valuable opportunities for perspectives to be shared. At this juncture, there is a need for a collective political effort. For months I have been asking the Taoiseach to brief Opposition leaders in detail in advance of European Council meetings and I reiterate that request today. When approaching a meeting as crucial as this one, Deputies of all parties and none should come together to show the EU27 that we stand united together in the interests of the nation. Will the Taoiseach reassure the House that he is willing to deploy what would, in effect, be a veto if meaningful progress to his satisfaction is not achieved on the Irish issue at the next European Council meeting? Will he agree to meet the leaders of all parties to share his plans on a confidential basis and discuss how each of them might assist by directly lobbying our sister parties and organisations throughout Europe to support what is a vital Irish position?

The Taoiseach

The Brexit stakeholder group is due to meet tomorrow and all parties are invited and welcome to participate in it. I have set up a system under which a very senior official in my Department is available to brief party leaders on the current state of the negotiations. Some party leaders have availed of it, although I am not sure if each of them has. I have committed to meeting party leaders in that regard and will do so when we are at decision point, but we are not yet at that stage. Things are evolving rapidly and changing on a daily basis. We are in daily contact with the task force headed by Michel Barnier. Much progress is being made on the financial settlement but it has not yet been agreed to. None of the three items on which sufficient agreement is required before we can move to phase 2 has reached the necessary point. Progress is being made but it is insufficient at this stage. We are in regular contact with other Foreign Ministers and Prime Ministers and solidarity remains strong with Ireland on our specific issues, including avoiding a hard border. I am very confident that the European Council will operate by consensus and that there will be no need to use or threaten to use a veto because we have and will continue to have the support of our European colleagues on the issue of the Border.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

This is the assembly of the people and Members want reassurance from the person who is representing Ireland at the European Council meetings that we will not move to phase 2 until the interests of Ireland are fully secured. I want the Taoiseach to provide that reassurance. I welcome the Brexit stakeholder forum which is important, but it involves 60 or 70 people from agencies and so on. In advance of this most critical European Council meeting, I ask the Taoiseach to meet the leaders of parties represented in the House to discuss the strategy and see how we can play a part by talking to socialists and democrats within the European institutions in the case of the Labour Party and liberals in the case of Fianna Fáil and so on in order that we will have a collective, joined-up and manifestly united effort on this vital issue for Ireland. I ask the Taoiseach to agree to these two requests.

The Taoiseach

There will be statements in the House prior to the European Council meeting. They are to be made next week or the week after and there will be------

Deputy Brendan Howlin

That is not the way to do it.

The Taoiseach

That is the system we have in place in the House for party leaders and Members to contribute to the European Council before it takes place.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

This is not normal.

The Taoiseach

I have committed to having a meeting of party leaders when we get to decision point and will honour that commitment but we are not yet at such a point. The situation changes on a daily basis and it is not practical to have a meeting every day or two on the issue. That would be a major distraction from the job we are doing on behalf of Ireland on Brexit and in dealing with other governments. However, I will meet party leaders when we get to the point where a decision has to be made and I have a specific request to make of them regarding their political groupings.

Deputy Joan Collins

During the past week, while within the House there was the fiasco of a crisis that never should have been a crisis, life continued in the real world. Tragically, two homeless men died on the streets, one in Ranelagh on Monday night and the other outside the Four Courts. Two families came to my constituency office having been served with termination notices in respect of their homes in the private rental sector. These families are facing the nightmare of eviction and potential homelessness. One or two such families come to my office every week and it is likely that similar situations take place in the constituency offices of all Dublin Deputies.

During the same week Threshold released its annual report which showed a massive increase in the number of people who were contacting it because of a fear of losing their homes, most of whom were in the private rental sector. A total of 71,000 calls were made to Threshold last year, more than double the number made in 2015. A report issued shortly before stated 40,000 homes could be built on public land that had been zoned for housing. Some 12,000 houses could be built on public land in Dublin alone. Considering that the average cost of building a home, leaving aside land costs, is between €180,000 and €200,000, the cost of building 40,000 such homes would be in the region of €7 billion to €8 billion. If that were to be done over a four to five year period, it would cost between €1.5 billion and €2 billion per year. If there was the political will, the money would be found. For example, in the past three budgets income tax revenue has been reduced by some €3 billion. These tax cuts are largely irrelevant to the living standards of those on low to moderate incomes. That is not a once-off cost of €3 billion but rather the amount of State revenue that would be forgone every year. I have no doubt that people would forgo these minimal cuts in income tax in return for a serious attempt to solve the housing crisis. Another potential source of funds is the €1.3 billion that has been set aside for a rainy day. If having over 3,000 homeless children in the State is not a rainy day, I do not know what is. Perhaps the Government is saving it for a new developer or bank bailout.

The Nevin Economic Research Institute produced a report last year which outlined the potential adoption of the European cost recovery model which could be a game changer in dealing with the housing crisis. It would involve building homes to be rented at below market rates but at a sufficient amount to recover the initial investment in time. The programme for Government states expert groups should be established to consider developing a viable cost rental model for Ireland.

The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, the previous Minister and the Department are all considering this. Does the Taoiseach agree it is time for them to get up off their backsides and implement a programme of public housing on public land?

The Taoiseach

I want to say how deeply saddened I am, as I think everyone is, to hear of the deaths in recent days of two people who were homeless. On my behalf and on behalf of the entire House, I express my condolences to the families and friends of those affected. We understand that one homeless man in his late 30s who had been sleeping rough at the Four Courts has passed away; The Irish Times reports he was a Lithuanian national and may have died as a result of a drug overdose. The other death occurred in Ranelagh. The cause of the latter death is unknown at this time but we understand that he had been offered shelter.

Regarding the actions that are taking place, the Minister, Deputy Murphy, has already announced a number of very important measures to ensure that more beds and more shelter are available over the next couple of weeks. Twenty-six additional permanent beds will be provided tonight on Little Britain Street, 25 additional permanent beds in Cabra will be available on Thursday night, and an additional 67 temporary beds will come on stream this week. Therefore, by 18 December we will have 200 more beds available, and by beds I mean single beds or double beds in rooms, not cots. We want to be assured that there is, or at least will be, a bed and shelter available for everyone who needs them in the city not just for the winter period, but beyond into the spring and summer as well. We are also stepping up our actions when it comes to the Housing First programme, whereby not only homes and apartments are provided for people who are homeless, but also wraparound services in order that they are able to stay in the homes or apartments they are given. Since we introduced Housing First solutions, 180 people have already gone from rough sleeping into those solutions. These people were sleeping rough and now have housing with support and have managed to stay in that housing. The Minister will appoint a Housing First director quite soon in order to ensure we can move more people off the streets and into homes through that programme.

The Government's plan to build more housing is very much under way. A Supplementary Estimate of €100 million was also approved at Cabinet on Tuesday morning for the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. This will enable the Department to meet the costs that have been run up by local authorities in building housing over the past year. Deputies will be aware that 2,000 houses will have been built directly by local authorities by the end of this year, which is a major increase on only a few hundred a year or two ago. We have a €1.8 billion social housing budget for next year for housing, which will allow us to increase the number of social homes built to 3,800. This is almost a doubling and does not include additional social housing acquired by renovating voids, purchasing them from developers, long-term leasing or Part V. This will bring the total number closer to 7,000. Therefore, the issue we will run into is not money at all but rather the capacity of the construction sector to build all these homes. Housebuilding is now ramping up. We can see this from the numbers and we are starting to see it around us, all around the country. The constraining factor will not be money from the Government, but rather the availability of sites and construction workers and others to build the houses we desperately need.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank the Taoiseach for his report on the homelessness crisis, but what I wanted to raise with him is public housing on public land. That was the main content of my question. He sort of half dealt with it. Part of the approach of Rebuilding Ireland includes the proposal to have 125,000 people in HAP households. By 2021, that will cost the State €1 billion a year. Providing these 120,000 social housing units through HAP will cost €32.9 billion over 30 years. That money would be much more deservedly put into public housing on public lands. We know that Dublin City Council has public lands on which to build at least 12,000 houses. It should get more land through other methods of acquiring land in Dublin. The Taoiseach opened a housing development recently at which he mentioned that it contained affordable homes but he forgot to mention that these houses were selling for between €320,000 and €390,000, which is certainly not affordable. We need affordable homes for workers in Tesco and Dunnes, on construction sites and in the general economy who earn under €50,000. This can be done through the plan put forward by Tom Healy of the Nevin Economic Research Institute.

The Taoiseach

I do not believe it is a case of either-or and HAP works for many people. It allows them to live in private rented accommodation, often - almost always, in fact - in a private housing estate or private apartment block. I know from my experience in my own constituency that many people living with a HAP tenancy or with rent supplement in a private housing estate or a private housing development, when offered social housing, decide not to take it because they would prefer to stay where they are as their children are in the local school, they have connections to the area and they want to stay in the housing they are in at that time. Many people make this decision because it works for them to stay in private rented accommodation on occasion. It also helps to bring about integrated communities. We do not particularly want to go back to the era of huge social housing estates which generate or become a focus for social problems. We want integrated developments as much as possible. It is our intention to reduce our reliance on rent supplement initially and HAP as we build more social housing. There will be a €25 million funded affordability scheme for public lands, and the Minister, Deputy Murphy, will produce the information on this as soon as he possibly can with new income limits.