Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 17 Jan 2018

Vol. 963 No. 6

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Micheál Martin

Many people of a younger generation will be appalled as they read in today's newspapers about the treatment of Joanne Hayes 34 years ago by agencies of the State, including An Garda Síochána and the Lynch tribunal, which was established by the Oireachtas and by the State. They will read of the very hurtful manner in which this young woman was treated, causing enormous distress to her and her family. The complete lack of empathy shown at that time by agencies of this State was shameful and is a damning indictment of the institutions of the State and of society at that time. She was wrongly accused of murdering a baby and was put through an horrendous tribunal, which was meant to inquire into the failures of An Garda Síochána in its conduct of the investigation but which essentially turned into a cross-examination of Joanne Hayes herself. In the words of Brendan Kennelly, one of our most famous poets, the tribunal was like a "medieval witch hunt" with the victims burning at the stake and the crowd dancing around the fire and that just about sums it up.

It is interesting that on the release of State papers, people will often say that it was a different era and that everything is attributable to the era. Sometimes that is true and, in this case, it partially explains some of what went on and the context. However, even at the time the then Garda Commissioner, Larry Wren, described the performance of gardaí as revealed in the State papers as "grossly negligent". There are also lessons for us today. There is no room for an absence of professionalism in agencies of the State in terms of investigations, the conduct of tribunals and so on. Notwithstanding the culture of the era and the mores of the time, there are still very significant lessons to be learned by the agencies of the State today in terms of how we deal with citizens in our society and the moral approach we can take.

I understand that the Taoiseach has issued an apology on behalf of the State to Ms Hayes and her family, which I welcome. Deputy John Brassil has spoken to the Hayes family, who are very anxious that their privacy would be respected. Joanne Hayes and her family do not want to relive the horrors of what happened back then again. On their behalf, I am making a general plea that their privacy would be respected at this difficult time. I ask the Tánaiste whether the State, without any negotiation, will adequately and properly compensate Joanne Hayes for what happened. The State should not put her under duress or force her to go through any process but should do the honourable thing by acknowledging the terrible hurt that was caused and providing adequate, appropriate and fair compensation.

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy Martin for raising this issue in a sensitive manner. I want to personally welcome the apology that was made yesterday by the acting Garda Commissioner to Joanne Hayes and her family. As Tánaiste, I also want to join the Minister for Justice and Equality and the Taoiseach in apologising on behalf of the State. I was thinking yesterday, as I am sure others were, of where I was and what age I was at that time. I was starting secondary school and would like to think it was a very different Ireland in terms of the approach to women and pregnancy in those days. However, I also accept the point that real policing mistakes were made. There were also mistakes made in the subsequent tribunal in terms of how a woman and her family were questioned. The way in which the tribunal was conducted was described as insensitive, very, very frightening, harrowing, quite horrific and shameful by the Dáil committee on women's rights subsequently. There are lessons here for the State. There is also a need to respond to the family's wish for privacy so that a woman who had to go through an extraordinary ordeal of accusation and blame does not have to relive that awful period in her life. Her extended family should not have to go through that either.

I wish to restate the Taoiseach's apology to Joanne Hayes and her family. In terms of the final question that Deputy Martin asked about compensation, we will certainly try to deal with this issue in as sensitive a manner as possible but I am not empowered or at liberty to say right now how that should take place. However, I am sure that it is something on which the Government will try to make a quick decision.

Deputy Micheál Martin

I thank the Tánaiste for his response. I reiterate that the Hayes family have been speaking to Deputy John Brassil and are very anxious that this does not become a political football. They are also anxious that their privacy would be respected. Given the trauma that has already been caused, they certainly do not want to go through all that again and that has been very clearly articulated to us. The lessons are there to be learned in terms of how we approach issues like this, even in today's world. We have had a number of cases relating to children and only recently, a number of worrying reports from Tusla. It is a warning to us and a reminder of the absolute necessity to keep looking for the highest of standards in terms of how State agencies conduct their affairs.

The only reason I have raised the issue of compensation is that the State generally takes a defensive approach to issues such as this even when it is very clear that a wrong was done by it and when apologies have been issued by it. By the way, I am not articulating on behalf of anybody. Nobody has asked me to make this point. There comes a time for the State to take the lead in dealing with certain issues and certain events. It needs to do the right and the fair thing in a situation such as this. I appreciate the Tánaiste's comments.

The Tánaiste

I take the point that when questions of redress or compensation are being discussed in tragic circumstances in which the State is responsible for wrongdoing, there is often a concern about the setting of a precedent. Given the extraordinary circumstances of this case, I do not think it sets a precedent to try to deal with it in a sensitive way. With the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and the Taoiseach, I will ensure this aspect of the issue is raised. I remind the House that there is an ongoing and active Garda investigation into what happened to baby John in this case. I join the Minister, Deputy Charles Flanagan, and others in urging anyone with information on the death of baby John to come forward in order that the other tragic element of this case can be resolved through an appropriate Garda investigation. Our primary thoughts today need to be with the Hayes family and I hope the call for privacy will be heeded by the media and politicians. By responding to families in these circumstances in a respectful manner we can show that Ireland has moved on in how these tragic stories are covered by the media and debated by politicians.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I welcome the Government's apology to Joanne Hayes. The re-emergence of this tragic case is bound to be traumatic for her and her family and the mother of baby John. I express our solidarity with them.

I raise with the Tánaiste the Government's abject failure to provide essential services for children with disabilities who are in the care of the State or who are in the community at large. I raised this matter with the Taoiseach yesterday following the Ombudsman for Children's damning report on the treatment of Molly, a teenager with Down's syndrome and severe autism. The investigation found that the State had denied Molly the supports she needed and abdicated its responsibilities. It found that its actions had had a negative effect on her and that she had not had an opportunity to reach her full potential. The HSE and Tusla have accepted the recommendations set out in the Ombudsman for Children's report - they had little choice - but they have also pointed out that meeting their commitments depends on the provision of resources. Other serious issues such as the lack of respite care services and the poor treatment of carers arise in this context. There is a significant deficit in the resourcing and funding of child and adolescent mental health services.

As the Tánaiste is aware, one of the privileges of being a Member of this House is that we frequently meet carers and groups in the voluntary and community sector that provide services for citizens with disabilities. Such services should be provided by the State in the first instance. I commend all those who are doing outstanding work in this sector. If they were not providing these services, many more people would fall between the cracks.

Section 39 agencies provide a range of vital care services for citizens who are living with disabilities and need hospice care, rehabilitation and various health services. The funding for such agencies was cut by a Fianna Fáil-led Government in 2010 and again by a Fine Gael-led Government in 2012. Front-line staff had their pay cut in line with the cuts for public service workers. They also lost increments. Not only is it absolutely unfair that the restoration of pay is being refused, it also represents bad economics. If these services are further reduced or removed, the citizens cared for will be condemned to a lesser quality of life. If they end up in hospital or the care of some other over-stretched service provider, the State will have to pick up the tab. The crisis in section 39 agencies has reached a tipping point. The Government needs to put in place a pay restoration process for the staff of such agencies. It has a responsibility to address this issue before the planned strike takes place on 14 February. If the strike goes ahead, it will compound the crisis that is being sharply felt by vulnerable citizens. It is not too late to act. Will the Government sit down with the unions that represent the workers to work out a positive and fair solution?

The Tánaiste

I am aware that the Deputy also raised the case of Molly yesterday. The Ombudsman for Children's report which is very concerning highlights a gap in the provision and co-ordination of supports and services by Tusla and the HSE for children in foster care who have diagnosed moderate or severe disabilities. The Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, and the Minister, Deputy Katherine Zappone, are taking and have taken the findings very seriously. The Ombudsman for Children's report has been accepted in full by Tusla and the HSE which are committed to implementing the recommendations set out in it. I have received a note on the matter from the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, which confirms that Molly's supports are now in place. A joint protocol that has been agreed and is being implemented will result in structures being put in place to support better care planning and transitional arrangements between the HSE and Tusla. This gives us an important opportunity to review all existing placements. According to Tusla reports, there are 450 cases in the moderate to severe to profound disability range. We are responding as necessary to a need and a gap that has been exposed by the case of Molly.

The Government recognises the invaluable services provided by section 39 organisations. I am sure a number of Deputies have met representatives of such organisations. I have met them in the context of hospice care, in particular. There is no doubt that there is work for the Government to do to resolve this issue and we are committed to doing so. The Ministers, Deputies Simon Harris and Paschal Donohoe, and the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, have been working collectively on it for some time.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Too long.

The Tánaiste

A process is in place to provide for a review mechanism that will involve the assessment of section 39 organisations to ensure, where appropriate, the State can make the necessary decisions outside the FEMPI legislation which does not apply to section 39 organisations to guarantee continued service provision into the future. Others will be familiar with the case of Marymount Hospice in Cork, for example. Such facilities are providing essential health care services and have essentially been mirroring the pay agreements that apply within section 38 organisations and across the HSE generally.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Why not provide for pay restoration for them?

The Tánaiste

Certainty needs to be brought to the budgeting of many of these essential health care services and potentially services outside the health care sector too. The Government is committed to doing so as quickly as possible.

Deputy Gerry Adams

I am sorry to say the Tánaiste's answer is disappointing. We have just dealt with an historical case. We deal with many historical cases but the report of the Ombudsman for Children does not deal with an historical case. This is happening now on our watch. Children with disabilities are being denied backup support. The refusal to restore the pay of the people who look after such children is also happening now. It is great that Molly has her supports, but it took 15 years. To get to that point her foster mother was put through the wringer. The Labour Court has acknowledged the link between public service grades and staff in section 39 agencies. To my knowledge, the Government has not so far engaged with SIPTU. I ask the Tánaiste to give a clear commitment that talks on a pay restoration process will be opened. This is needed for the sake of the workers involved and the vulnerable citizens they serve.

The Tánaiste

I am not sure which part of my response the Deputy had in mind when he said it was "disappointing". Was he referring to what I had said about the case of Molly, disability services generally, the significant increases provided for or the efforts being made to resolve the section 39 issue?

The Government has engaged with the trade unions. The Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, met representatives of SIPTU just before Christmas. We have been engaging and are seeking a sensible and appropriate solution to the issue. The Government acknowledges the need for it to be resolved and will not oppose the Fianna Fáil Party motion to be debated this evening. Our approach to the motion is a signal of what we are trying to do.

The Minister for Health, Deputy Simon Harris, has asked the Health Service Executive to enter into a process of engagement with section 39 organisations to establish the factual position on pay reductions and restoration. At this point, it is not clear that cuts were applied in a universal manner, although it is clear that cuts have been applied in certain organisations.

Deputy Micheál Martin

Pay was cut in all hospices.

The Tánaiste

We are not only discussing hospices, for which the case is clear.

Deputy Micheál Martin

St. Joseph's hospice in Charleville is one example.

The Tánaiste

We are talking about section 39 organisations across a number of sectors. The Government is committed to establishing the facts in order that we can make the appropriate determinations on pay restoration. We will do so as quickly as we can.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

In the past two years the attention of those of us on the Opposition benches has been focused on housing, rightly so. Notwithstanding the new Government, Taoiseach and Minister and the various new plans, the housing crisis has worsened. To any reasonable observer, it has become an emergency, with people dying on the streets and the number of homeless children increasing by 30% since this time last year. Declaring a housing emergency is a prerequisite to dealing with the housing crisis in a sustainable manner and allowing the Government to pursue alternative solutions. While the private market will have a role to play in providing these solutions, public construction of housing, the provision of affordable houses, shared ownership schemes, regulated rented markets and a much greater role for co-operatives will be vital in providing alternative solutions once the Government sees its way to declaring a housing emergency.

Tragically, none of this is happening. The Government's failure to learn from its mistakes and its reliance on the private market to provide housing, albeit with the full support of taxpayers' money, is worsening the crisis. I will focus on Galway as an example of what this reliance on the free market has allowed to happen. The beautiful city of Galway has a population of 80,000 and a housing waiting list of approximately 13,000 people dating back to 2001. Lands in the inner city, at Ceannt Station where 14 acres of land is available and in the inner docklands area where more than 2 ha. is available, have been earmarked as key regenerative areas, but there is no master plan, area action plan or overall vision. We are back to developer-led development. Development in Galway, where land has been zoned and public land is available at Ceannt Station and the docks, is developer-led on the sites that have been sold. Moreover, the authorities are in the process of selling public land at the Ceannt Station site. There is no master plan or local area plan in a city with a development plan that demands and sets out objectives for such plans and refers to sustainable development, mixed communities and the development of communities in the city. A regional plan was also drawn up further to a discussion document that referred to moving away from developer-led development and learning lessons. No lessons have been learned. Not one house has been constructed with public funds in Galway since 2009.

At this point, all I can do in the three minutes available to me is to draw the Tánaiste's attention to the crisis, ask him to use whatever legal power is available to him to intervene in Galway and listen to the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government which, in its previous guise as the Department of the Environment, Heritage and Local Government, set out that, at a minimum, a local area action plan should be developed prior to any strategic zone being adopted for the lands in question.

The Tánaiste

While the Deputy and I often disagree, I agree with virtually everything she said. We need to ensure we rebuild a housing sector that can provide social and affordable private housing in a more effective and planned manner and do not leave this task to the vagaries of the market. This applies to Galway and many other towns and cities. It is for this reason that the Government will introduce a new national planning framework in the next few weeks. The purpose of the framework is to plan for 20 years ahead and for an additional 1 million people and to ensure cities such as Galway, Cork, Waterford and Limerick will plan in a sustainable way to accommodate the needs of people who need homes and housing.

While it is true that there is a reliance on the private sector to provide social housing solutions in the absence of publicly owned and built social housing, the Government is changing this position rapidly and dramatically increasing the number of social houses being provided by local authorities and approved housing bodies. Private sector delivery of the homes people need is also being ramped up. The figures for last year bear this out. Just 18 months into the five-year Rebuilding Ireland plan, it is clear from the figures that the plan is working. Last year more than 17,500 new homes commenced construction last year, an increase of 33% on the figure for the previous year, and more than 19,000 homes were connected to the ESB network, meaning that they were either newly built or had not been occupied for the previous two years. In addition, planning permission was granted for more than 18,000 new homes. This figure does not include planning applications made under the new fast-track planning system for large developments. The number of new households that had their housing needs met reached 25,892 last year in terms of social housing demand. These figures are significantly higher than those for 2016, 2015 and 2014.

It will take time to solve the problem. Those who call for instant solutions and the construction of tens of thousands of social houses within six or eight months are not being realistic.

Deputy Mick Barry

Fine Gael has been in government for seven years.

The Tánaiste

The plan we started with 18 months ago is now delivering increases in the numbers of social and private homes, as well as homes that are affordable to first-time buyers.

I accept that there are particular problems in Galway. The figures available to me show that 100 houses were bought, newly built or brought back into use for social housing last year and that there are a further 350 social housing units in the pipeline. I can provide Deputy Catherine Connolly with exact details on their locations, although I am aware she is very familiar with the city.

Deputy Catherine Connolly

The number of homeless persons in Galway stands at 199, which does not include those staying in refuges, sleeping on couches in other people's homes and so forth. Let me deal with facts. I am a pragmatic and realistic woman and asking the Government to take action immediately, not to build houses tomorrow. I also ask it to take action in respect of the developer-led development of sites in Galway city that will result in 2,600 jobs for office workers in a multi-storey complex and not one single home. I ask it to take action on the absence of a local area plan and a master plan for brownfield sites in the city that are being sold, principally at Ceannt Station and in the docks. I ask it to take action to deal with flagrant non-compliance with the city development plan, the Government's national planning framework, with which I am familiar, and all of the national planning guidelines. We have a housing crisis, but we also have public land in the hands of various public agencies. When office accommodation and not one home is to be built for 2,600 people, not only do we have a scandal on our hands, but it is also clear that we have not learned anything from this debacle. I again ask the Tánaiste to listen on the issues I raise and act on them. I am not asking that houses be constructed tomorrow but that the Government ask serious questions about why there is no interconnecting plan for lands that would solve or partly solve the housing crisis in Galway in the next few years through the building of homes.

The Tánaiste

I am slow to offer too much commentary on my previous brief because the Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, is now responsible for this matter.

Anyway, I spent time with senior management in Galway City Council and Galway County Council - I imagine the Minister, Deputy Murphy, has too - as well as both together to talk about how we face the challenges that Deputy Connolly has outlined relating to the dramatic housing shortage for student accommodation and social and affordable housing. Those conversations are continuing. There is ongoing dialogue between the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and local government in Galway to ensure plans are being addressed. One of the reasons we asked local authorities to produce an audit of all available land for housing and commercial development was for that very reason.

We have to try to ensure that we develop mixed developments and that we do not use every portion of land we have for housing if, in some circumstances, it is unsuitable. We must ensure that we build communities and that we will have sustainable societies in future that can address housing need as well as employment need and so on. It is about balancing these competing interests and getting it right. That is what the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government should be doing. My understanding is that is exactly what departmental officials are doing together in the context of Galway.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Other parties have begun by referring to Joanne Hayes. I hope the political parties that contributed to the atmosphere of that time and to the witch-hunt of that woman will draw the necessary lesson, that is to say, women should have privacy and autonomy over their own lives.

Five weeks ago, an all-party Oireachtas committee voted in favour of having a referendum on a simple repeal of the eighth amendment and of providing for abortion to be legal up to 12 weeks without restriction. This was the culmination of a process that was set up by the Government. Yet, people are none the wiser on the simple question of whether the Government is now going to accept or set aside the recommendations of the committee.

Later today, many young people are expected to assemble at the Dáil as part of the Strike 4 Repeal movement. They want to listen to the debate. The questions they want answered are simple. These young people know nothing of the Ireland that we got a glimpse of yesterday, that is, of dead babies on beaches or Salem trials of a woman. They believe in bodily autonomy. They will not accept politicians procrastinating. They are the people who will actually face crisis pregnancies in future. We need certain questions answered. Is it the Government's intention to honour the Taoiseach's commitment for a referendum in late May? In order to meet that timeframe, will the Government do three necessary things? First, will the Government move the First Stage of a repeal referendum Bill late next week? Second, will the Government set up the referendum commission, which has asked for 16 weeks in which to operate? Third, will the Government publish legislation that contains abortion up to 12 weeks on request?

Four weeks ago, the committee report was published. Given the number of Deputies who have not had time to read it, one would think they were asked to read War and Peace rather than a short report. As usual, when it comes to the rights and decisions of women, Deputies are wrestling with their consciences in a way they never do when it comes to cutting hospital beds or bailing out banks. Anyway, women should be allowed to examine their consciences about this decision rather than politicians - that is the reality. Let us worry about whether people with crisis pregnancies can sleep at night rather than the Tánaiste or Deputies.

This really should be simple for politicians. As Professor Aralkumaran put it at the committee, do we support legal or illegal abortion? That is the simple question. Do we want to force people to remain pregnant? That is all anyone need ask themselves. Societal attitudes have moved on considerably. There is now a new middle ground. Even if there was not a majority now for abortion rights – the figure was 60% in the last RED C poll – parliaments have to legislate for societal need and reality.

My question is for the young people who will gather at 5 p.m. Will the Government respect the recommendations of the Oireachtas committee? Will the Tánaiste give a date for when the repeal Bill will be first moved through the House to allow the referendum commission to be established? Will the Government ensure that legislation gives real abortion rights, regardless of the Tánaiste's personal opinions?

The Tánaiste

I thank Deputy Coppinger for that question. I will address the timeline in terms of what the Government needs to do. The Taoiseach has made it clear that the Government is committed to a referendum, but there is a procedure that needs to be followed to ensure that becomes a reality. This is something the Government agreed as a three-step process some time ago. We agreed to set up a Citizens' Assembly, which did a very good job. Then we agreed that the recommendations from that process would go before an Oireachtas committee, which also did a very good job in debating, discussing and making recommendations. There was not unanimous agreement but there was majority agreement. The third part of the process that the Government committed to was consideration, following a debate in the Oireachtas, of the recommendations of that report and making a determination in terms of how a referendum should proceed and what question would be asked. We are moving through that process. We are now at the start of the third stage of it.

The timeline for procedural steps, compiled by the Department of Health, envisages a series of memoranda being submitted to Government in the period from late January to early March. Subject to Government approval of each memorandum in turn, it is proposed that a constitutional amendment Bill must be initiated and passed by both Houses during the period from March to mid-April. A referendum commission must also be established, subject to Government approval. Previous commissions have indicated that four months is required for such a commission to do its work properly. A referendum must be held not earlier than 30 days and not later than 90 days after the constitutional amendment Bill has passed the Houses of the Oireachtas and a polling day has been agreed.

Of course, in parallel we have committed to putting together at least the heads of legislation. The aim is to try to set a context around answering the question people will rightly ask if they are asked to vote either to remove a section of the Constitution or to replace the existing provision with something else. People will want to know what the reality will be after that in terms of legislative certainty. That is a question people will want answers to.

We are beginning a detailed debate in the House this evening. I do not think we should be drawing conclusions before that debate even starts, as Deputy Coppinger seems to be suggesting in terms of making commitments. The Government wants to hear what all parties and all contributors to the debate have to say. Then, the Government will have to make decisions around the Cabinet table in terms of how we proceed.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

Obviously, it is reasonable for the Oireachtas to have a debate on this issue – I have no problem with that. When that debate is finished, today or tomorrow, my next question arises. It relates to meeting the timeframe of 25 May. I imagine everyone would agree that is an optimal time to have a referendum because it would allow young people and students to vote before exams begin etc. We need about six weeks for the repeal Bill to move through the Dáil. That was the timeframe according to advice given to the Government before the committee sat. It seems there is new information suggesting we do not need that period. That is why I am raising the matter now. The hemming and hawing taking place from the Taoiseach and many others is not giving any confidence that it will actually happen.

I agree that legislation should be published on abortion. The reason I agree is that I have no confidence that this Dáil, with its current make-up, could actually be trusted to enact the legislation unless it gets a public endorsement in this referendum. People should know what they are voting for. I am confident that they will accept it. The key issue now is whether the Government will meet the timelines. It is a matter of a simple repeal Bill. We all know what is needed is a simple Bill of one or two lines. I have a draft Bill along those lines before me. If the Government does not wish to move an appropriate Bill next week, maybe Solidarity-People Before Profit will move a Bill next week.

The Tánaiste

I am unsure whether it would be conducive to the House moving forward together if Opposition parties are going to start trying to force the pace on something. What we are trying to do - the Taoiseach has given great leadership on this - is recognise the fact that there are differences of opinion. These are deeply held and linked to people's personal circumstances and experience. Many in the House have strong views in respect of these issues in the context of the need to protect women in a more comprehensive way than we do today and in the context of the responsibilities we have towards children and unborn children.

The Government is trying to bring forward a proposal that can allow the people to make an informed decision about our Constitution and the consequences, that is, what the new realities will look like, if they decide to change the Constitution. This is complicated and not straightforward. It requires legal advice from the Attorney General and thoughtful, political debate that listens to everybody's perspective and tries to come up with an approach that all parties will be able to support in order that we can take party politics out of a very divisive difficult and emotive issue. That is what the Taoiseach is trying to give leadership on.

Deputy Ruth Coppinger

He is not doing a very good job.

The Tánaiste

I think that he has done a good job so far. We will try to meet the timeline he has set to ensure we have a referendum in late May or early June. He has tried to put a process in place to get us there in that timeline and the Government will act on that basis.