Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 25 Jan 2018

Vol. 964 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

In recent days, the Government has given in to pressure and decided to partly address the anomaly that the Government created and voted for in 2012 when the former Minister for Social Protection, Deputy Joan Burton, made changes to the State's pension contribution rules. The Government ploughed ahead and voted for the cut despite having the discrepancies and anomalies pointed out to it at the time. I and my Fianna Fáil colleagues trenchantly opposed those changes in 2012. This decision was also made against the background of the blatant and crude raid on the private pension funds of hundreds of thousands of people to the tune of more than €2.4 billion.

Legislation was also introduced to undermine the very basis of defined benefit schemes, which led to the destruction of some of the largest pension schemes in the State, including the Irish aviation superannuation scheme and the Aer Lingus pension scheme. The imposed changes to band rates and entitlements to the State pension resulted in thousands of people, women and men, receiving a lower rate of pension. The changes included doubling the number of contributions required from 260 to 520 in order to qualify for a full contributory pension. It was a replacement of the bands that had been introduced in 2000. The Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, speaking in a radio interview after the recent budget described the cuts as "bonkers" and "unbelievable", but he voted for the cuts. The Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Deputy Regina Doherty, was herself exasperated, but she voted for the cuts. Deputy Joan Burton has said that she regrets those cuts, but she introduced them and voted for them.

The Government's decision resulted in some instances of people losing in the region of €30 per week, which is €1,500 per annum. This is a significant sum of money for most people, especially those who were solely dependent on the State pension. The Minister, Deputy Doherty, conducted a review after the anomaly was pointed out to her, and particularly after the Private Members' motion brought forward by my party colleague, Deputy Willie O'Dea, and Fianna Fáil which was agreed in this House. It was agreed unanimously, with the abstention of Government Members.

It was announced this week that the Government will partially address the anomaly by introducing a home carer's credit and letters will be issued to ask for evidence of those affected and asking them to liaise with the Department so the anomaly can be addressed. While this is a small step in the right direction that is welcome, many related issues remain to be addressed. The Minister is still not able to confirm how many people will benefit and she cannot rule out the fact that the pension regime will not impact on those who come to retirement in the next three to five years. The Minister also cannot confirm when 40% of those affected, who are men, will have their pension reductions addressed. Is the Tánaiste content that Ireland is now no country for old men? Is the Government anti-men? The pension's anomaly has to be addressed but it must be addressed for all of those who are affected and not just for the portion of people identified by the Minister. Is the Government committed to reversing the 2012 changes in their entirety and reinstating the former pension regime, which is the fairest way to proceed?

The Tánaiste

Over the past months the Minister, Deputy Doherty, has been considering how and when to address the issue of the 42,000 people who were affected by the pension rate band changes in 2012. We listened and we worked on a solution. This week, the Government formally approved a positive change in the pension system. The announcement means that a new total contributions approach will be available to pensioners who were affected by the 2012 changes and will include up to 20 years of a new home carer credit. This approach will significantly benefit many people, particularly women but also men, who may have taken time out from the workforce to look after children or to care for parents, and whose work history includes an extended period outside the paid workplace while they raised families or performed other caring roles.

Under the total contributions approach, the pension given will more closely match the contributions made. I believe this to be fair. This approach will make it easier for pensioners who are assessed under the yearly average model to qualify for a higher rate of State pension. The total contributions approach, TCA, will ensure that the totality of a person's social insurance contributions - as opposed to the timing of them - will determine the final pension outcome. The Minister has worked closely with the Fianna Fáil spokesperson in this area and with those from other parties. The measure will cost the State some €40 million this year so it is a significant change that we should welcome rather than look to undermine.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

I am not undermining it in any way. I put it to the Tánaiste that his Government was dragged kicking and screaming into reversing the changes that the previous Fine Gael Government brought forward. It is certainly welcome that in time many people will receive a reimbursement of money that should have been due to them. Most of those people are women who worked in the home raising their families, having a break in their employment service. We welcome this. It is one of the things our party has called for, but is the Government leaving another cohort of people behind? The Minister, the Tánaiste and the Government need to ensure that they are not leaving people behind while it is dealing with part of the issue with a small step in that direction to rectify the situation. The Minister, Deputy Doherty's approach is leaving propel behind. I ask the Government to commit to putting forward a plan to reverse the cuts in their entirety. We accept that the proposed change is a step forward but we will not accept that other people who may lose out who may have been unemployed at the time, who may have been self-employed or who may have been training. This could be some 40,000 additional people. The matter needs to be addressed.

The Tánaiste

This issue of pensions does not solely relate to the 2012 changes. This goes back 20 years when people took time out from the workforce, or in some cases women were forced out of the workforce.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

The current anomaly is not all of it, but it is a major part of it.

The Tánaiste

It is not as straightforward an issue as some would suggest.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

The Government doubled the criteria and set the bar much higher.

The Tánaiste

The option being called for today, which is a complete reversal of the rate band changes from 2012, would cost an estimated extra €70 million this year on top of what was already announced. We have just been through a budgetary process and Fianna Fáil was involved in that-----

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

We were.

The Tánaiste

This was not a major issue during those discussions-----

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

The Government is going to leave all those people behind.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

We must move on.

The Tánaiste

We have made a significant change this week that is welcome. It will solve the problem for many thousands of people.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

It is wrong to do it for some and not for others.

The Tánaiste

We are moving towards introducing a new approach to pensions, which is based on lifetime contributions. The more one pays the more one gets. This new pension system will be implemented post-2020.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

The money will only be paid until 2019.

The Tánaiste

In the meantime we are trying to deal with an anomaly in as fair a way as possible-----

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

It is not an anomaly-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy we must move on.

Deputy Darragh O'Brien

-----it is a policy decision made by the Government.

The Tánaiste

The Minister has acted in good faith this week and has taken a huge step forward.

Deputy David Cullinane

On Tuesday, the Committee of Public Accounts published its periodic report. It makes for sober reading on the level of oversight and accountability in the State. We need accountability in public office and the report gave us shining examples and illustrations of why we need a real change in Irish politics.

One of those shining examples was the decision to reopen Stepaside Garda station. This was a prime example of stroke politics if ever one was needed. The head of Dublin policing told the Committee of Public Accounts that the reopening of Stepaside Garda station was not a policing priority and that he had more pressing demands on resources across the Dublin region. Gardaí on the ground are screaming out for resources to tackle gun crime, drug crime and gangland murders, yet we have the Minister, Deputy Ross, pushing pet projects and stroke politics. Any decision to reopen a Garda station must take into account the best use of Garda resources, the best use of State funds and the policing priorities. It should not be based on whatever pet projects are in the back pockets of Cabinet Ministers.

Given the need for a holistic review of resources, the Tánaiste and the Minister for Justice and Equality, Deputy Flanagan, need to explain why the Stepaside station was chosen above other pressing needs. It is hard not to conclude that this was done to give the Minister, Deputy Shane Ross, a trophy. The Government needs to understand that trophies do not make for sound policies. The Minister, of course, will not be held to account for his actions. The Government has form in this area and this is par for the course in this State.

Over the past 12 months, the Committee of Public Accounts heard harrowing evidence from the Grace case whistleblowers about their treatment by the HSE. Time and again, the HSE sought to protect the organisation and people within it over the needs of those who were abused and forgotten until the whistleblowers came along. This was also the case with regard to the Templemore training college and the millions of euros in mis-allocated funds. This issue was raised for more than ten years and it was covered up until it was too big to cover up anymore. We also have the disclosures tribunal at Dublin Castle which is trying to get to the bottom of the smear campaign launched against Garda Sergeant McCabe. This man sought to do the right thing and was viciously attacked for it not by criminal gangs, but by the State itself. How shameful is that?

We need accountability in Government and this has to come from the top down. Therefore, will the Tánaiste explain why Stepaside Garda station was prioritised over other pressing Garda and policing demands in Dublin? What actions will the Government take to ensure that we have genuine public accountability in this State and people are properly held to account? The citizens want, demand and need good governance, proper accountability, people held to account where there is wrongdoing and an end, once and for all, to stroke politics in the State.

The Tánaiste

The Committee of Public Accounts is doing good work. It is asking hard questions and exposing issues when appropriate, and we need to respond to the concerns raised through the committee. This is a good thing and it is how democracy works. Sometimes it is uncomfortable for people but it is a good thing.

On Stepaside Garda station, it is an executive function of the Government to set broad policy parameters in respect of policing, and this is what we try to do. The Garda Commissioner is responsible for the distribution of resources, including personnel, among the various Garda divisions. The programme for Government commits to a pilot scheme to reopen six Garda stations, both urban and rural, to determine their potential impact on criminal activity, with special emphasis on burglaries, theft and public order, but also looking at issues such as where population growth is at its most intense. On foot of the programme for Government and while fully cognisant of her statutory responsibilities, the then Tánaiste asked the then Garda Commissioner to undertake an analysis to identify locations for a pilot scheme of reopening stations. This was to have regard to population, criminal trends and the availability of stations for possible reuse. The acting Commissioner informed the Committee of Public Accounts in 2017 that input of local Garda management was of key importance. On 18 December 2017, the Government noted the Garda Commissioner's final report on the pilot project to reopen six Garda stations. This recommended the reopening of stations in Ballinspittle in County Cork, Bawnboy in County Cavan, Stepaside in Rush, County Dublin as well as stations in counties Carlow and Wicklow. The Commissioner has written to the Office of Public Works to progress the matter.

There was a process in which we asked Garda management and the Commissioner's office to identify areas where the possible reopening of Garda stations would be good for policing and security in those locations. One of those locations was Stepaside and we are progressing that accordingly.

Deputy David Cullinane

The Tánaiste has not answered my question on the broader issue of accountability. This Government has had to set up more commissions and tribunals of investigation than any other Government in the history of the State. I welcome that all of those were set up, as they were necessary, but the reason they are necessary is the number of crises in public life across all services. Why do we have so many? It is because no one is ever held to account. If we consider all the crises over the past decade, not one single individual has been properly held to account.

On Stepaside Garda station, the Tánaiste needs to examine the evidence presented to the Committee of Public Accounts. The criteria given to the former Garda Commissioner by the former Minister for Justice and Equality was Government criteria. We heard at the Committee of Public Accounts that the former Commissioner could have amended the criteria, so the input that was sought from senior gardaí was solely in the context of that criteria. However, the most senior garda in command in Dublin, who was fighting and trying to tackle gun crime and serious gangland crime, was telling the public and policy makers that reopening that Garda station was not a priority. If that is the case, why is the Government pressing ahead with it?

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste to respond.

The Tánaiste

The Government needs to respond to official reviews and reports that are sent to us by a Garda Commissioner for us to make decisions on the back of them, which is what we did. On the Deputy's generalisations that no one is held to account in Ireland, that is rubbish. The reason we set up tribunals is to hold people to account.

Deputy David Cullinane

Name them. Who has been held to account?

The Tánaiste

What is happening right now in the tribunal is the holding of people linked to account.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is not a kangaroo court.

The Tánaiste

It is linked to policing and many of the politically sensitive issues that have been raised by brave whistleblowers. We are getting to the bottom of these things and Ministers and former Ministers are being held to account in that tribunal.

Deputy David Cullinane

Who has been held to account? Name them.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

It is not a kangaroo court.

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Tánaiste, without interruption from either side.

The Tánaiste

That is the kind of holding to account that we democratically stand over. Perhaps Deputy Cullinane could outline what he is talking about-----

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Kangaroos

The Tánaiste

-----in terms of holding people to account. What we want in government is transparency and to ensure that people who have questions to answer are allowed to do it in a fair, robust and appropriate way through investigations, inquiries, tribunals, Oireachtas committees or the court system. That is how democracy functions. We are examining new ways to add to that all the time.

Deputy David Cullinane

Give us even one example.

The Tánaiste

That is what this House should be focusing on rather than giving the generalisations we have just heard.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

Any word on how many councillors Sinn Féin are missing these days?

Deputy Dessie Ellis

We will be-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

Deputy-----

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The horrific criminal case of a 26 year old man who has pleaded guilty to grooming girls as young as nine has shocked the country. It follows a number of recent news reports on the types of harmful communications that new technology has enabled. These range from the appalling case that I just referenced to the insidious type of cyberbullying that is now a grave concern for many parents throughout the country and the impact so-called revenge porn has had on both men and women. However, our laws are hopelessly out of date and there has rightly been a public demand for us in this House to act. The Internet and social media are a wonder of human ingenuity that have brought people closer together, but clearly they have a dark side. In the vacuum of no clear Government policy, we had a Minister of State make the ludicrous suggestion that social media accounts should be tied to public service cards.

In 2013, the then Minister with responsibility for communications, Mr. Pat Rabbitte, set up an Internet expert group on Internet conduct and governance. The group's report made a series of structural, legislative and administrative recommendations, including that the existing offences of sending messages which are grossly offensive or indecent, obscene or menacing should be updated to include new forms of electronic communication. As the law stands, only phone calls and texts are covered.

In 2016, the Law Reform Commission report on harmful communication and digital safety was published. It highlighted gaps in the criminal law, in particular those relating to newer forms of communication. Last year, the Labour Party published our harassment, harmful communications and related offences Bill which is based on the Law Reform Commission report. We intend to bring that Bill before the House next Wednesday during Private Members' time. However, the second part of the Law Reform Commission recommendations that we need a digital safety commissioner is outside the scope of a Private Members' Bill because it would be a charge on the State. The Irish Examiner reports today that the Government will appoint a digital safety officer. I assume this will be modelled on that in the Law Reform Commission report. However, the Government's legislative programme is silent on the matter.

I have two simple questions for the Tánaiste. What exactly is the Government proposing? When will we see a digital safety officer in place on a statutory basis? In the interim, will the Tánaiste confirm that the Government will support the much needed reform outlined in the Law Reform Commission report which we encompassed in our Bill to be brought before the House next week?

The Tánaiste

The Government shares the Deputy's concern in this area. I share it as a politician but also as a father of three girls who know how to use my mobile phone as well as I do, despite the fact that the oldest is aged just eight. This results in a conversation in virtually every family in the country about how we get the balance right between allowing our children access to technology and protecting them from the dangers of exposure to grooming, cyberbullying and explicit information and imagery.

This is a challenge the Government wants to respond to in a comprehensive way. The position of the Minister for Communications, Climate Action and Environment, Deputy Denis Naughten, on the question of a digital safety commissioner has been widely reported. He is currently exploring and consulting on the need for, feasibility of and requirements relating to the creation of the office of digital safety commissioner. We have not yet had the conversation in Government on what it will look like, what it will cost and when it will happen, but I expect we will have it very soon. The Minister is committed to that course of action and I suspect he will get strong support across Government for it.

On Tuesday, 21 November the Minister convened a meeting of the Minister for Justice and Equality, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs and their officials which covered online safety issues, including various initiatives taking place on a national and European level to tackle illegal and harmful online content. A planned open policy debate will take place on 8 March in the Royal Hospital Kilmainham on this specific issue to develop and finalise Government policy in this area. We look forward to the Labour Party's Private Members' Bill next week and to hearing how the Labour Party feels we can progress this issue.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Labour Party Bill is built on the recommendations of the Law Reform Commission report. While it is not within our power to propose the establishment of the digital safety commissioner we can, in the next few weeks, update our antiquated law to include the offences of sending grossly offensive, indecent, obscene or menacing communications to new modern technology. The Oireachtas has already made that law in relation to older technologies such as telephone and texting so we should do that immediately. Then we should set about, as quickly as we can, putting a digital safety commissioner in place. The blueprint is there from the Law Reform Commission. The nation believes the time for debating this is well past. The Law Reform Commission made its recommendations in 2016. It is now time for action.

The Tánaiste

I accept that it is time for action but it is not as simple as some people might suggest.

Deputy Brendan Howlin

The Law Reform Commission is not simple.

The Tánaiste

I am not suggesting we ignore the Law Reform Commission recommendations. This is an international, as well as a national, problem and a lot of the imagery to which children and adults are exposed online does not actually come from Ireland but from further afield. We need to look at the responsibility of those who are responsible for online platforms to see how we can screen and remove inappropriate information and protect people in an appropriate way while ensuring we enjoy the benefits of technology. It is difficult to get the balance right and most Western democracies are struggling with it. There are practical and sensible things that we can do quickly and I look forward to the Minister bringing recommendations to Government, where he will get strong support from the Taoiseach down.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

Can the Tánaiste shed any light on the bizarre comments made by the Taoiseach about how young working people are supposed to raise deposits and secure an affordable home to purchase? It is not an exaggeration to say that vast numbers of people are puzzled and infuriated about the Taoiseach's advice to go to the bank of mum and dad to deal with the impossible task of coming up with a deposit or finding affordable housing.

In the 1970s a couple, one a nurse and the other a council worker, could probably pay a modest rent while saving a deposit for an affordable house. Today, even in the best case scenario, that is not possible for a couple living in Dublin. A teacher on €35,000 and a clerical worker in the council, on a starting salary of €23,000, who go to EBS would be allowed to borrow approximately €240,000. If they manage to save a deposit of €27,000 they could buy a house for €270,000. The problem is that the average rent for a one-bedroomed apartment is €1,200 per month so there is no chance they can save that deposit. Two public sector workers used to be able to put money aside but after pay cuts, pension levies, USC, property tax, waste charges, increases in motor tax and utility price hikes, they simply do not have the money, especially if they have three or four children. The bank of mum and dad does not exist. It is mythical except for a pampered few in this country.

Even if a couple could get to the stage of having a deposit and a mortgage, where would they find a house for €270,000 in Dublin? The answer is "nowhere". Does the Tánaiste know how many houses were available in Dún Laoghaire for under €300,000 this week? There were seven. There was none under €200,000. The average house price in Dublin is €350,000 but in Dún Laoghaire it is €600,000. This also renders the affordable mortgage scheme completely useless for huge swathes of Dublin.

Will Fine Gael get real? What planet are they living on? Can they give some better advice to struggling working people trying to get on the housing ladder than to go to the bank of mum and dad?

The Tánaiste

The Government is not pretending that any one initiative will solve the housing problem. It will be a combination of a whole series of things. The Minister for Housing, Planning and Local Government, Deputy Eoghan Murphy, announced three new initiatives in the past week: an affordable rental scheme; an affordable housing scheme; and a Rebuilding Ireland home loan mortgage system. All of these will help large numbers of people in different parts of the country, including in Dublin, to get their foot on the housing ladder or to find affordable rent.

We all know that the core pressures in housing are linked to a shortage of supply of social housing, affordable housing, affordable private housing and the private housing market generally. All of the supply indicators are moving in the right direction but there is significant pressure as there is population growth, leading to 50,000 extra people in Ireland each year, and this is happening in the areas where there is most housing pressure. We are conscious of that and we need to continue to launch new initiatives that help certain segments in different elements of the market. It will be more difficult to have an affordable housing scheme in Dún Laoghaire because land is much more expensive and is more difficult to get. In this regard, there is more of an onus on the local authority to provide social and affordable housing on publicly owned sites, which is what we are pushing it to do.

The Deputy should not dismiss good initiatives that are already attracting significant interest from potential home buyers, who are asking questions about a very attractive new proposition whereby they can borrow for the next 25 years at interest rates at somewhere between 2% and 2.5% on an income that would not have allowed them to get a mortgage previously.

This is a good initiative and should be welcomed. It is not the panacea to all of our problems. Increased supply is the core issue that the Government is trying to respond on, and multiple actions are taking place so that we can deliver on that. Let us not try to fit a scheme that has been launched this week into a demand that needs a different type of solution, but let us also not pretend these schemes are not going to provide good and sustainable solutions for many people who do not have them today. That is what the Government needs to do. This is a complex challenge, which goes from homelessness and dealing with the most vulnerable people to helping those who can afford and who want to buy homes to access affordable mortgages in the right way.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

The Minister needs to get real here. One has to be earning €75,000 to borrow €300,000, and houses cannot be bought in huge swathes of Dublin, as I have just pointed out, for that price. What about the vast majority of people who do not have €75,000 and who, in any event, even if they did have it, almost certainly could not find a house in Dublin for that price? The scheme does not offer them anything at all, except the illusion or fantasy that the bank of mum and dad will sort it out. The Tánaiste said that there is a particular onus on Dún Laoghaire-Rathdown County Council to build on public land. There is a particular onus on the Tánaiste to explain why the Government sold off the Cherrywood site to an American property speculator, ensuring that the prices in what will be a new town with the potential to solve the housing crisis in the whole of south Dublin will now be totally unaffordable. He should also explain why the previous commitment that the local infrastructure housing activation fund, LIHAF, would deliver 40% affordable housing on developments such as Cherrywood has now been abandoned. Will the Tánaiste reinstate that commitment? Will he define what affordability is? Tell me what is affordable and who can afford it.

The Tánaiste

I have been handed a note here, and I should correct the record that there are actually 600 homes in Dublin on daft.ie right now that can be purchased for less than €250,000.

Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett

I am talking about south Dublin, not the whole of Dublin.

Tánaiste ( Simon Coveney)

I am not saying that is enough, but-----

Deputy Finian McGrath

The Deputy got that wrong.

(Interruptions).

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

The Deputies should listen. That is enough.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

What has the Deputy got against the north side?

Tánaiste ( Simon Coveney)

-----I am saying we are making progress in this area. Planning permission is up by almost 50%, commencements are up by almost 50% and mortgage approvals are up significantly. The property market is moving in the right direction although there are still significant pressures to deal with when it comes to public policy.

The Deputy seems to be suggesting that the schemes we have announced, particularly the Rebuilding Ireland home loan scheme, will not have a positive impact on people. Let us take some examples. A person earning €40,000 a year and living in Mayo could afford to buy a house worth €225,000 provided he or she had a deposit of €22,000. That person could then borrow €198,000 from his or her local authority and the monthly repayments would be in the region of €858 per month or 33% of his or her net disposable income. That is a viable option for people and that is why we are proceeding with it. A couple-----

An Leas-Cheann Comhairle

I have to be even handed.

Tánaiste ( Simon Coveney)

Let us not, for the sake of politics, undermine good schemes that can help many young families around the country to get on the housing ladder.

Deputy Patrick O'Donovan

What has the Deputy got against country people?