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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 May 2018

Vol. 969 No. 3

Other Questions

Public Private Partnerships

Thomas P. Broughan

Question:

6. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the estimates of public private partnership, PPP, expenditure in the context of the multi-annual capital allocations in respect of the period 2018 to 2021; the major PPP projects in the water supply sector; the costs of same; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21624/18]

As the Minister knows, there has been much criticism and two major debates about public private partnerships, PPPs, in this House. Our parliamentary budget office has carried out an overview of PPPs in Ireland, asking that we address the pretty opaque nature and the lack of transparency in the whole area of PPPs. There is a difficulty in measuring true value for money down to the 2040s or 2060s. The overview made some specific proposals on water contracts and the multi-annual budget.

This week we have taken steps looking at how we can increase the information available relating to PPPs. My Department has published two separate sets of financial data. This can be accessed on the www.ppp.gov.ie website. The first set of data provides an update on the existing financial commitments table. This table contains detailed information on all PPP projects for which contracts have been signed and which are either operational or in construction. Information is broken out by individual project on the type of PPP model being used, the operational date of the project, the capital contractual value of the project, the total unitary payments made to the end of 2017, the projected future unitary payments for each project, other PPP-related costs, the total cost of each project and the year of final payment of the project. All told, it is a considerable amount of information.

The Deputy should note that the published data is intended to provide indicative information on PPP projects based on information provided to my Department by the relevant responsible Departments or agencies. The central PPP policy unit in my Department endeavours to ensure that the information is as accurate as possible but any queries on the details of specific projects should be confirmed directly with the State authorities responsible for those projects.

The estimated expenditure on PPP unitary payments will amount to approximately €1.2 billion up to 2021. This represents 4% of the total. With regard to water, Irish Water has statutory responsibility for all aspects of water services planning, delivery and operation at national, regional and local levels. This includes taking on responsibility for the water-related PPPs from the local authorities.

I welcome the Minister's point on greater transparency or information but he was to publish a major review of PPPs going over the past couple of decades and into the future. I do not know if his Department has done that yet. He mentioned a central expenditure evaluation unit and that clearly has a key role along with the National Development Finance Agency in evaluating PPPs. There still seems to be an opaque nature when we look at the multi-annual capital framework and the spending of each Department. We still need clarification on how PPPs are performing, particularly with respect to water supply and drainage. This relates to the way money is drawn down and the way projects move forward. We have the major River Shannon water supply project, the Ringsend project and so on. There is much work to be done in treatment, and the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, has done much work in the area. There are also flood relief schemes and so on. It seems hard to disaggregate the PPP structure despite major criticism. We had the Comptroller and Auditor General report of 2011, when the Government took power, which is very critical. The Economic and Social Research Institute has been equally critical over the years.

The Deputy mentioned the challenges of disaggregating the data and that is why we have now provided the information project by project and Department by Department. In the past too much information was not made available relating to PPPs under the auspices of the claim of commercial sensitivity. We can get a better balance and there is much information we can share that does not undermine the ability of the State to get good value while respecting the contractual obligations that we have to people involved with delivering projects. I have believed this since I was a member of the Committee of Public Accounts, and it is one of the reasons we published the data. As a Member of the House, the Deputy is entitled to know as much as we can make available to him on certain projects.

I have the report on PPPs and I anticipate publishing it soon. With respect to water, Irish Water has now been brought fully on to the balance sheet of the Exchequer so virtually all the capital projects it is involved with are no longer classed as PPPs.

I welcome the news that we will get more full information. The point made about commercial sensitivity and so on reminds me of the spurious reasons that were given. We are spending the people's money and it is a mortgage for the people. I note some projects going to the 2060s.

There is the 10% figure in the investment policy framework and the rule relating to the capital budgets of each Department. It is important this is kept. We need to carry out major capital investment projects in water, housing, education and health across the country. In many Departments the Government is constrained because of an ever growing unitary payment bill relating to existing PPPs. There has been much criticism both here and in the UK, as the leader of the Opposition in the UK has said there will be no more public finance initiatives there because of the performance of Carillion and various others. Is it time, given that we can expect a reasonable surplus over this calendar year, to go back to funding the major kinds of works being carried out by the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, and other Ministers ourselves?

The majority of works which the Minister of State, Deputy Moran, is delivering are fully funded by the Exchequer because it is appropriate in those cases. Many of those projects are of a scale where a PPP model is not appropriate and they can only be funded by the Exchequer.

On whether we are squeezing out other capital commitments because of the value of unitary payments to which we are committed, it is fair to say that the value of unitary commitments which are coming up is significant. It is now an average of €410 million per annum between 2024 and 2035. However, at this point it is not squeezing out other capital investment because it forms part of the Ireland 2040 plan. We are increasing capital investment by a quarter next year alone, and my attitude towards future projects is clear, namely, that we should decide PPPs on a case-by-case basis.

We should bear in mind that, regarding the unitary payments that I touched on, in many cases they pay for the maintenance of projects that are built. We should decide if PPPs are appropriate on the basis of the project rather than any broader policy.

Decentralisation Programme

Brian Stanley

Question:

7. Deputy Brian Stanley asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if the decentralisation of other Departments, sections or Government agencies to counties Laois and Offaly has been considered. [21626/18]

Brian Stanley

Question:

34. Deputy Brian Stanley asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform his plans to relocate new Departments or Government agencies, or both, to counties Laois and Offaly in view of the infrastructural strain on the capital city and the lack of employment opportunities in the counties. [21627/18]

My question relates to any plans the Government may have to decentralise agencies or any other sections of or entire Departments to Laois or Offaly. The two counties are centrally located and are haemorrhaging jobs. Huge numbers are commuting to Dublin from both counties daily. In Laois alone, 11,500 of a very modest workforce commute from the county, which is ideally located. I am keen to hear if the Minister has any plans.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 7 and 34 together.

As the Deputy will be aware, the decentralisation programme announced in December 2003 involved the potential relocation of more than 10,000 civil and public service jobs to 53 locations in 25 counties. It was a Government decision in 2011 that the programme be cancelled in light of the budgetary and staffing outlook at that time. Up to that date, about a third of the target numbers, more than 3,400 posts, were decentralised. The proportion of civil servants working outside Dublin is now just over 50%. There are no plans at the present time to introduce a further programme of decentralisation.

I thank the Minister for his reply, which is disappointing. The 2003 plans were somewhat chaotic and in the style of something written on the back of a cigarette box to put it mildly.

The Deputy would be glad of it now.

Nevertheless, Laois and Offaly have benefited from them.

That is right, they have.

The plans were chaotic during their first years. For example, the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine was in seven different locations in Portlaoise, although it is now in fewer places. There is no doubt that there was chaos for some years and that it was not planned properly. I do not want, however, the Government to use that as an excuse not to decentralise other parts of the public service. In Offaly, there is part of the Department of Education and Skills and the Department of Finance. Laois has the Department of Agriculture, Food and the Marine, the Office of the Data Protection Commissioner and the National Council for Curriculum and Assessment. IDA Ireland jobs have been slow to come to Laois and Offaly. Only four jobs were created by IDA Ireland in Laois last year, but there is an opportunity in this area. We are told that IDA Ireland cannot get companies to move beyond the M50 and that it is difficult to get them into the midlands. Dublin cannot cope with the rapid growth it is undergoing. This is an opportunity to examine this issue and look to sections of other Departments that could be decentralised.

Last week, we saw IDA Ireland's success in delivering major job announcements in areas and cities outside Dublin. There was an announcement regarding Longford and regarding Cavan prior to that. IDA Ireland is very much committed to trying to increase employment and attract foreign direct investment to areas throughout the country, particularly in such areas as financial services and the kinds of jobs announced in Longford and Cavan.

My focus on decentralisation is on growing employment in offices which are decentralised. Any further decisions to be made will be in the context of Ireland 2040, where we integrate decisions into a proper planning framework for the country. At this time, I have no plans to decentralise any further offices from Dublin.

We must hope that the new national plan to which the Minister referred is better implemented than its predecessor. The capital is under huge pressure in areas such as water, housing and transport. Housing is beyond the reach of most low and middle-income civil servants. There are opportunities to relocate. Even if the Minister will not relocate additional Departments, there are further opportunities within the Departments which have been decentralised and which have been welcomed and embraced by people in the midlands, especially in Laois and Offaly.

For example, someone ought to look at the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. While it may not relate strictly to decentralisation, every little thing in planning must be rubber-stamped in the Custom House, even for applications regarding the porches of houses or the kinds of covers that may be put over the tops of house windows. Some of that work needs to be decentralised to local government. That is one area in which we could move civil servants out of central government and back into city halls.

We have made a lot of progress in allowing local authorities to take a lead in providing shared services to the entire country. The Minister of State, Deputy O'Donovan has pointed to the progress which has been made in the local authorities in Limerick which play a role in the rental accommodation scheme, RAS. Shared services functions for the country are now run from particular local authorities. Approximately half of all of our civil servants are based in regional locations. While we have made progress in moving existing employment outside Dublin, my focus is on increasing employment in offices which have located in all counties. The wage agreement which is in place over the next three years creates the ability to hire more civil and public servants in offices that we have established.

Statutory Retirement Age

Barry Cowen

Question:

8. Deputy Barry Cowen asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform when legislation to increase the compulsory retirement age for public servants will be published; the timeframe for the legislation to pass in Dáil Éireann; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21668/18]

Fiona O'Loughlin

Question:

19. Deputy Fiona O'Loughlin asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the timeframe for the publication of the legislation to abolish the mandatory retirement age for public sector workers; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16483/18]

The current system compulsory retirement age remains at 65 years while pensions can only be claimed at 66 years, and that age is to be increased in future. We cannot allow the current practice of applying for jobseeker's payments to continue to fill the gap. When will legislation come before the House to increase the compulsory retirement age to 70 years, as the Minister announced last December? It is imperative that that happens as soon as is practicable so that a further tranche of people will not be affected come September.

I propose to take Questions Nos. 8 and 19 together.

As the Deputies are aware, on 5 December 2017, the Government agreed that the compulsory retirement age of most public servants recruited before 1 April 2004 should be increased to age 70. Primary legislation is required for this change to be implemented. The Office of the Attorney General has been requested to prioritise the drafting of the necessary legislation so that the new compulsory retirement age will become effective as soon as possible.

It is not possible to determine the length of time it will take for a Bill to be drafted and pass through both Houses of the Oireachtas given the need for meticulous drafting, ongoing detailed policy considerations, and the scheduling requirements of the Houses of the Oireachtas. The drafting process is under way and the Bill is on the list of priority legislation for publication in the current session. Indeed, I understand that the drafting of the legislation is significantly advanced. I aim to be in a position to be able to publish the legislation next month.

While I do not doubt the effort that has been made to bring forward the legislation, it is disappointing to hear that we have no commitment from the Minister that it will be passed prior to the summer recess in order that it might benefit another tranche of people in September.

In that light, will the Minister agree to waive the requirement for pre-legislative scrutiny by the relevant committee? Such an approach might fast-track the legislation. There was an expectation, based on the Minister's announcement, which we welcomed in December, that this would be forthcoming and that the legislation would be brought before the House and passed before the summer. I implore the Minister, in the absence of a commitment, to agree to waive the requirement for pre-legislation scrutiny which would otherwise be necessary.

We will publish the legislation next month, but I cannot give a commitment as to when it will be passed. No Minister is in a position to give such a commitment as it is a matter for the House as to when legislation is passed. I will consider the Deputy's proposal that the requirement for pre-legislative scrutiny be waived. I accept his good intentions in trying to have this matter resolved and I am aware that there is some concern about the implementation of interim measures. However, this is complex legislation that will have a material effect on the lives and circumstances of many people who decide to continue to work. I want the legislation to pass and believe that if we publish it next month and the House gives it fair wind and considers it quickly, we will be able to pass it promptly. I will consider what the Deputy has said about the requirement for pre-legislative scrutiny when the Bill has been fully drafted and will be happy to consult the Deputy and the rest of the House at the time.

Budget Targets

Thomas P. Broughan

Question:

9. Deputy Thomas P. Broughan asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he will report on his Department's interaction with the main spending Departments; the Departments that are close to profile in 2018; the Departments that are below or above their budget 2018 expenditure profiles; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21623/18]

Given the issues with the weather this year, the cervical cancer screening scandal, the forthcoming visit of the Pope and ongoing problems in the Departments of Health and Justice and Equality, among others, are Departments constantly in contact with the Minister to seek more money? I notice that in their Votes Departments have less of a buffer this year than in previous years. Are they close to profile in spending? When we received the stability programme update, I believe expenditure on housing was below profile. The members of the Committee on Budgetary Oversight believe more spending and more resources are required in the area of health. Is this something that concerns the Minister? Will we have Supplementary Estimates for the Department of Health, the Department of Justice and Equality and the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection?

Managing the delivery of public services within budgetary allocations is the responsibility of every Department and Minister. My Department is in regular contact with all Departments and offices to ensure expenditure is being managed within the overall budgetary parameters. The draw-down of funds from the Exchequer is reported every month in the Fiscal Monitor published by the Department of Finance.

As set out in the most recent publication, total gross voted expenditure at end of April was €19.216 billion. This was €74 million, or 0.4%, below profile. Gross voted current expenditure, at €18 billion, was 1.1% ahead of profile. Timing issues related to child benefit and Garda pension payments, profiled for payment at the start of May but brought forward to April, accounted for a significant portion of the variance. As outlined in the April report, it arose as the Trans-European Automated Real-time Gross settlement Express Transfer, TARGET, system was closed on 1 May due to it being a European public holiday. The timing issues will reverse in May. Health expenditure, at €5.15 billion, was 1.4% above profile. Gross voted capital expenditure, at €1.1 billion, was 19% below profile but up €190 million, or 20%, versus April 2017. The key driver was that capital expenditure in the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government was running at €158 million behind profile. This was largely due to a delay in drawing down payments for Irish Water. It is anticipated that the draw-downs will be completed in the coming months, bringing expenditure back into line with profile

Additional information not given on the floor of the House.

As the Deputy will be aware, sound public finances are necessary to underpin sustainable economic growth. This requires that overall expenditure be managed effectively. To support this goal, my Department has been engaging with a range of Departments on year two of the spending review process, with a view to reinforcing a systematic analysis of existing spending programmes, focusing on an assessment of efficiency, effectiveness and sustainability.

I thank the Minister. I asked him yesterday about the summer economic statement, but we did not have time to discuss it. Will we have the statement at the end of June in order that the committees of the House will be able to have a proper chance to have an input into the budget?

The Minister mentioned expenditure on housing as being below profile and that the delay in the draw-down for Irish Water was one of the reasons for it. That is a matter of grave concern. The Committee on Budgetary Oversight had a lengthy discussion on the health budget, which seemed to be at least €800 million short of the resources required, based on an analysis by civic society groups such as Social Justice Ireland. We are all aware of the enormous pressures within the health service. The Secretary General of the Department of Health told me at one of the meetings that health spending would always be rationed. That was his approach, which is interesting, given the deficiencies in the Department of Health. I could also mention other Departments. Will there be any Supplementary Estimate to cover the cost of implementation of the UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities, to achieve what we have committed to achieving?

I am confident that within the resources available to the different Departments the commitments we have made in the ratification of the UN convention can be met for this year. It is a key priority for the Minister of State at the Department of Health, Deputy Finian McGrath, and I will certainly work with him to make available what is needed for implementation of the convention next year.

When the Secretary General referred to rationing, the point he was making - correctly - was that every single Department had a budget for the year. On the calls for further resources for the health service, we have to recognise that the total allocation for the Department of Health this year is €14.9 billion, an increase of 3.6% from last year. It was a very significant increase on what was already a very large budget.

I welcome the Minister's comments on the UN convention, but will there be additional funding this year to begin the implementation of ideas that civic society and disability groups have put to committees of the House? The problem in the health service is that acute waiting lists are growing. Yesterday the leader of the Labour Party spoke about the waiting lists for cataract operations. There is a litany of such problems. I am sure the Minister sees constituents about the matter of early intervention and assessments, as I do. There may well be a huge gap in that area also. Is the reality that we will have to have Supplementary Estimates in the areas of health, disability services, justice and social protection, among others? Does the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform have any process under way wherein it is looking at the formulation of budgets, starting in 2019, to ensure all line Ministers will have enough resources to do the jobs we want them to do?

Every single line Minister and Department will always want more resources. The Deputy asked me whether I was contacted about the allocation of additional resources. I am - all of the time. Every Minister wants to do his or her best for citizens to whom they have a responsibility. It is my job to try to meet those needs out of the resources available to us. I will work with the Minister of State, Deputy Finian McGrath, to meet needs in the disability sector. It is an issue on which I have worked with him in the past when he looked for my support in making funds available to promote assisted decision-making. I made funding available in budget 2018 and have tried to meet the requests he has made to support requirements in the disability sector.

Forensic Science Ireland Laboratory

Jim O'Callaghan

Question:

10. Deputy Jim O'Callaghan asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform when it is expected work will commence on the construction of the Forensic Science Ireland headquarters; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [16489/18]

The Minister will be aware of the forensic science laboratory in the Phoenix Park, which is in his constituency. He will also be aware that this is the laboratory that carries out very important work on behalf of the State to analyse and process forensically evidence to be used in criminal prosecutions. The Government gave a commitment in October 2016 that a new forensic science laboratory would be built and that construction would commence in 2017. That did not happen. When will work on the construction of the new forensic science laboratory start?

The enabling works contract for the Forensic Science Ireland laboratory reached substantial completion on 4 May 2018. The works included site services, site preparation, security, flood control and building foundations. The main contract will follow.

Due to recent changes in international forensic laboratory standards, it was necessary to add further information to the main contract tender documents.

Forensic Science Ireland and the Office of Public Works, OPW, are currently examining the issues involved, which relate primarily to laboratory interior finishes and mechanical and electrical specification requirements. That examination has been completed and the OPW is now reviewing and amending the tender documents. The OPW intends to re-issue a complete set of documents to the contractors by the end of quarter 2, 2018. Following tender submissions it is expected that the main contract construction will commence in quarter 4, 2018.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Moran. I do not know whether he has had an opportunity to visit the forensic science laboratory. If not, I recommend he does so. I had the benefit of visiting it in 2016. The laboratory plays a vital role in analysing and processing all the evidence that is to be used in criminal prosecutions. Unfortunately, however, the facilities are completely inappropriate. The laboratory is based in an old office block at the back of Garda Headquarters. The staff have to work in extremely cramped conditions and it is a completely inappropriate place for evidence to be forensically examined. It is not just me who is stating that. Dr. Sheila Willis, the director of Forensic Science Ireland, stated that the current facility is unsuitable for modern science practices and that it is vital that the construction of a new laboratory starts as soon as possible. I am conscious of what the Minister of State has said, but it raises more concerns. From what he said, it appears that the main contract has not yet been signed and that we are in the process of reviewing tender documents. The question I asked was specific. When will construction work commence? I would appreciate an answer to that question.

As I said, we are hoping that construction will start later in 2018 but I advise the Deputy that the tender document is complex. The revised tender documentation pack is composed of 1,000 drawings including 30 supporting report documents. Our Department will be working closely with all the people involved to ensure that we deliver on this project in the later part of 2018.

I am aware that it is a complex construction process. We have all been aware of that. I am also aware that recent changes in international forensic laboratory standards have meant it was necessary to add further information to the main contract. Nonetheless, I regret to say there has been considerable delay in the commencement of this process. A legitimate explanation does not appear to have been provided as to the reason that is so. If we are taking criminal justice seriously in this country it is essential that we have up-to-date, advanced, modern capabilities to examine evidence. Every criminal prosecution that relies on forensic evidence must have that evidence analysed in a laboratory. We know the laboratory is due to be located in Backweston, in Celbridge. That was announced a number of years ago but I am disappointed that we do not have a definite indication as to when it will start and when the main works will commence.

I can assure the Deputy that I am giving the matter my full attention in terms of my Department. It has been delayed, but I can assure him that we will proceed and make sure that we deliver on time. I will keep the Deputy updated in that regard.

Public Procurement Contracts

Richard Boyd Barrett

Question:

11. Deputy Richard Boyd Barrett asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform if he is considering measures to deal with companies that are found to have been negligent, fraudulent or substandard in the work on public contracts; and if he will preclude the companies from bidding for public contracts in the future. [21724/18]

I am asking whether the Minister of State will consider bringing in more serious penalties and excluding contractors who do work paid for out of the public purse through public procurement or contracts where those companies are found to have been substandard, negligent in their work or engaged in fraudulent behaviour. I am thinking of issues like schools that were built in a substandard fashion without proper fire safety measures, bogus self-employment on public contracts and, we may discover, the outsourcing of cervical smears.

Thank you, Deputy.

I ask whether companies found to be guilty of those sort of failings should be excluded from further public contracts.

I thank Deputy Boyd Barrett. Public procurement is governed by EU legislation and national rules and guidelines. The aim of these rules is to promote an open, competitive and non-discriminatory public procurement regime which delivers best value for money.

When carrying out procurement procedures, contracting authorities have discretion to exclude tenderers from competing in a public procurement competition for reasons set out in Regulation 57 of SI 284 of 2016 – European Union (Award of Public Authority Contracts) Regulations 2016. This includes poor past performance where the tenderer has shown significant or persistent deficiencies in a prior public contract which led to termination, damages or other comparable sanctions.

The public procurement system operates at its optimum where the evidence presented to demonstrate compliance is independently verified. Otherwise, the contracting authority must rely on its own expertise and, in some cases, investigative powers to establish a tenderer’s bona fides. This can lead to inconsistencies in the administration of tender competitions.

The tax clearance system operated by the Revenue Commissioners is an example of the type of independently verified compliance mechanism that has operated successfully in ensuring that those who do not meet their tax obligations are excluded from the award of public contracts. Determining compliance with certain other legal requirements may require the input of the relevant enforcement body such as the Health and Safety Authority, the Workplace Relations Commission and building control, to name but three.

When making a submission a tenderer must consider whether any of the exclusion grounds listed in the procurement documents apply to them. Should any of the grounds apply, they must advise the contracting authority accordingly. Before a tenderer is excluded regarding certain breaches, they may make a case and provide supporting evidence as to why it should not be excluded. The contracting authority must arrive at a decision based on evidence rather than hearsay or dissatisfaction and should take the principle of proportionality into account in its deliberations.

The monitoring of public works contracts is also important to ensure that contractors continue to meet their legal and contractual obligations during the performance of the contract. A consistent contract management regime is critical and clearly defined milestones should be set down for evaluation purposes.

That looks good on paper, but is it happening? For example, I remind the Minister of State about Western Building Systems and the company that built 31 schools. A report into fire safety issues resulting from substandard building in an audit of five schools initially, which we were supposed to have had by now, revealed they were found to be fire safety defective. A report was to be prepared on all the other schools built by Western Building Systems, but I do not believe it has been produced, even though it was promised we would have it by now. I do not know if this has come into the public domain yet but Western Building Systems built a college of further education in Whitehall as long as ten years ago that is lying empty as we speak while homeless families are being accommodated in police stations.

Thank you, Deputy.

It is extraordinary that such companies are still being awarded public contracts. All firms that were found to have been involved in bogus self-employment arrangements, such as the JJ Rhatigan dispute----

I will come back to the Deputy. I call Deputy Burton.

Has the Minister had an opportunity to read the UK Parliament report on Carillion, which is a major provider of educational construction and building services to the Irish State? Is he aware that the Loreto school in Wexford is fully completed? The teachers have moved in their equipment and materials but they have been forced to leave again because the Minister of State's Department does not seem to have any mechanism for allowing the schools to enter the premises, for which the State is paying, but where the company, which is the contractor, has collapsed. We are given to understand that the four schools and one education centre involved in that contract in Wicklow, Carlow, Wexford and Meath will face delays of at least another year.

This is when the State has been paying top dollar. I would like the Minister of State to comment on that.

This is an issue I have raised with the Minister of State already. It is outrageous to think that a company that was involved in windmill construction - I am sure there was a Government subsidy there somewhere along the line - is back in business. I know of four small companies affected and the amount involved ranges from €60,000 to €37,000. These are small operators and the loss of this amount of money will put them out of business. I am sure this company has got much Government financing. It is paying about 3% of the euro. I think €20 million is owed nationally and we now discover it is back in business. It is outrageous that these people can put a company into liquidation, grab as many payments as possible from State subsidies and put small companies out of business. This is not just one company but this is happening on a regular basis. It is wrong and there should be a law to stop it.

I do not think it is appropriate for me to comment on an individual case but I have engaged with Deputy Scanlon on particular issues before, as has the Office of Government Procurement. To make a general point on school buildings and similar matters, the Minister, Deputy Donohoe, and the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton, have answered questions here before on a recent collapse. The National Development Finance Agency, NDFA, and the Department of Education and Skills are working on this. It affects my constituency as well. They are trying to work through this with agencies like education and training bodies across the country. It is not something that can be unravelled easily.

To get back to Deputy Boyd Barrett's point, I already referenced the EU rules that are there. There are mandatory exclusion rules and I can provide a copy of them to the Deputy. There are also discretionary rules where previous performance can be used. As I said earlier, it has to be proven. That has to be worked out by the contracting authority. In this case, the contracting authority would be whoever commissioned the development of the school. The Office of Government Procurement does not run and operate individual contracts, as Deputy Boyd Barrett will appreciate. We set out the policies that each of the contracting authorities have to operate within and their Accounting Officers are then held accountable to the Oireachtas via the Comptroller and Auditor General. There are procedures within the statutory instruments that are in place for those exclusions and if people believe that unsatisfactory work has been done, then the contracting authority can move to have those people excluded from future rounds.

I do not think this is happening and that there is proper enforcement of this. The Office of Government Procurement and the Minister of State should be putting pressure on the relevant Departments to ensure this happens. I mention Western Building Systems, which built a school in Whitehall that I understand has been sitting empty for perhaps a decade because it is structurally unsound. We then discovered that five of the schools it built were fire defective. We are then told there will be a report into the other 30 schools it built. That report was promised in September to be out in six months but it is not out. All of this suggests to me that there is not a seriousness about getting to the bottom of why companies in receipt of public money are doing substandard work. We are not bothered to look into it and we are not excluding them from further public contracts.

I mentioned bogus self employment. We hear the advertisements at the moment, and it is good the Government is raising the issue, but there have been widespread examples of contractors doing work for the State where they were found to have been, as in the case of Rhatigans, engaged in bogus self employment.

To repeat, there is a bonding system in place with all of these contracts that are undertaken on behalf of the State, where a percentage of the bond is retained by the contracting authority. In the case Deputy Boyd Barrett referred to, and without getting into the detail, it may well be an education and training body or the Department of Education and Skills. There is a procedure available but as well as that, we have to go through a process. That process can often involve court action being taken against the contracting authority and-or the State. It is not something we can enter into lightly. We have to have proof and we have to follow a process, and I think the Deputy would appreciate and respect that. There are safeguards already in place. Maybe there is a problem of awareness around the processes and safeguards that are there and if so, we can do more about making sure people are aware of them.

National Development Plan

Jonathan O'Brien

Question:

12. Deputy Jonathan O'Brien asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the way in which capital projects will be prioritised under the National Development Plan 2018-2027. [21512/18]

I ask the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform how capital projects will be prioritised under the national development plan.

The capital allocations made in budget 2018 and the national development plan were informed by the extensive evidence base collated and published on the Department's website in 2017 as part of the mid-year capital review. The evidence base included a macroeconomic analysis, an assessment of progress to date on the 2015 plan, departmental submissions, a public consultation process, an infrastructure capacity and demand analysis and an analysis of the resourcing available for increased investment. In addition to this, a review of public private partnerships, PPPs, was undertaken by the public investment management assessment unit of the International Monetary Fund.

It should be noted that, while I am responsible for setting the overall allocations across Government Departments and for monitoring monthly expenditure, decisions on which capital projects are prioritised within these allocations are matters for Ministers and have to be taken in the context of the national development plan.

The national development plans were introduced in 1989 on the recommendation of the EU to ensure an evidence-based approach for prioritising projects to guarantee the taxpayers value for money. With the publication of the National Development Plan 2006, this evidence-based approach was diminished. The NDP which the Minister's Government has published displays the same deficiencies. The Irish Planning Institute stated that Project 2040 choices send mixed messages about evidence-based planning with its president stating that good planning is evidence based. Does the Minister believe the Government's planning is sufficiently evidence based and is it good enough that a plan committing €116 billion lacks sufficient planning?

Yes I do, having published the evidence on it.

In chapter 6.2 of the National Development Plan 2018-2027 it is stated that the work of the Irish Government Economic and Evaluation Service network in building analytical capacity across the Civil Service through specialist recruitment and learning and development will also play an important role in enhancing the evidence base for decision making. In year one of the NDP, what work has the Irish Government and Economic and Evaluation Service, IGEES, completed to this end?

The work on the evaluation of projects and making choices within the national development plan will be more of a responsibility of the implementation board that has been set up for Ireland 2040. It has already met once and any decisions that are made - for example, on the allocation of funds from the four funds that have been set up to drive new work and new activity to make Ireland 2040 happen - have to be shared with the implementation board. The work of IGEES will be more focused on implementing the next round of our comprehensive spending review.

Public Sector Reform Review

Bernard Durkan

Question:

13. Deputy Bernard J. Durkan asked the Minister for Public Expenditure and Reform the degree to which reforms throughout the public sector remain in place to ensure accountability, collective responsibility and good value for money; and if he will make a statement on the matter. [21675/18]

This question seeks to ascertain the extent to which reform remains a central part of Government policy, with a view to achieving the points set out in the question.

It is an essential element of what we are looking to do. Last December I published the public service plan of 2020 that laid out what we are looking to do in how we deliver services. Only last month I published a performance report that laid out what every Department is meant to do and the progress that has been made to date in delivering against those targets.

From what he has observed so far, can I ask the Minister about the success of the plan so far and the degree to which he expects to achieve continued results of a beneficial nature?

I expect that we will continue to see improved results. The Government and I are particularly focused on making progress with the challenges we have in the housing and health sectors at the moment.

Having regard to the degree to which reform stood the country in good stead during the downturn of the economy, what is the degree to which it can now be ascertained that the continued reforms can be of assistance in different economic climate as they unfold?

It continues to be vital in terms of making sure we get good value on how the country's money is spent. It is fair to say we have to construct the need for reform and the argument for it in a different way.

During the crisis, much of the reform was focused on how we could find savings, efficiencies and manage tough decisions that had to be made. The focus of it now is not on cutbacks but on trying to make better use of the nearly €60 billion spent every year.

Written Answers are published on the Oireachtas website.
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