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Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 May 2018

Vol. 969 No. 3

Leaders' Questions

For several years Fianna Fáil and Deputy Michael McGrath, in particular, have been highlighting the burden of ever soaring insurance costs. Deputy Michael McGrath has raised the issue in the House, as well as with the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission, CCPC, and the European Commission. All Deputies are aware of the burden of soaring insurance costs on businesses and people generally. Many have seen insurance costs rise by between 40% and 60% over the past several years. There is considerable evidence in recent months of business closures as a consequence of excessive insurance rises. For young drivers in particular, there are many examples of people being unable to afford the premiums charged, thereby discommoding their daily lives. Despite the pressure, there has been very little Government action to deal with this issue. While the Government says it is committed and published bucketloads of reports, it has failed to stop insurance price hikes for businesses and for consumers around the country.

It is not just Fianna Fáil saying this. The National Competitiveness Council figures show that Irish insurance price inflation is significantly above that of the eurozone average, thereby adding to the competitiveness burden faced by businesses and the burden in people's daily lives. The key factor in this burden is the lack of competition in the Irish market. This morning, we learned from David Murphy of RTÉ that the European Commission has acted and launched a preliminary investigation as to whether or not foreign companies are being barred from entering the Irish market. David Murphy's report quotes the experience of Zenith Insurance which pulled out of the Irish market in 2016. In a statement it cited "the lack of engagement with us by Irish industry bodies, which we believe creates a market disadvantage for us and our partners." Less competition means higher prices for Irish insurance consumers. Higher insurance premiums cost jobs and hurt people across the country.

Will the Tánaiste confirm that this preliminary investigation is under way and how far it has progressed? Does the Tánaiste agree that insurance costs are too high in Ireland? What is the Government actually doing to encourage more companies to enter the Irish market?

The insurance industry body in Ireland, Insurance Ireland, promotes access to a service called Integrated Information Data Service, IIDS, a shared members' database that, by arrangement with the Department of Transport, Tourism and Sport, allows its users to confirm the accuracy of penalty point information. Will the Tánaiste confirm all insurance companies and all prospective insurance companies have access to that information, regardless of whether they are members of Insurance Ireland or not?

The European Commission has been undertaking an investigation since last year. Members will recall that on 4 July 2017, it carried out an unannounced inspection at the premises of companies active in the motor insurance industry in the State. The basis for this inspection was a concern by the Commission that the companies involved may have engaged in anti-competitive practices in breach of EU anti-trust rules which prohibit cartels, restrictive business practices and-or abuse of a dominant market position. The House will understand neither I nor the Minister for Finance are in a position to make any comment on an ongoing investigation by the European Commission. Any investigation undertaken by the Commission is done independently and I have no insight into the development of any such exercise.

Separately, the CCPC has been undertaking an investigation into potential price signalling in the private motor insurance sector. The CPCC is the statutory independent body responsible for the enforcement of domestic and EU competition law in the State. Again, it is not appropriate for me to comment on an independent live investigation. Having said that, the State has taken action where it can to date. The cost of insurance working group's reports on the cost of motor insurance, employer liability and public liability insurance have made several recommendations which are relevant to the issue of supporting a level playing field to ensure a competitive marketplace, which is what we all want. We are committed to implementing the recommendations of both of those reports. Much of that has taken place and has had an impact on the motor insurance market in particular.

There is still more work to be done, however. The Government is absolutely committed to ensuring an insurance market attractive to new entrants, based on a level playing field, and having a competitive environment in order consumers and businesses benefit. We will take appropriate action to ensure that is the case. It is not appropriate for me today to comment on independent investigations, which are ongoing.

I appreciate that the Tánaiste cannot comment because these are independent investigations. That is precisely one of the issues, namely, they are independent of the Government. It took two outside agencies to intervene to do something. The Government has talked and published reports while businesses and consumers face significantly excessive increases in their insurance costs. The figures show that, compared to our EU competitors, our insurance costs are considerably above the EU average. Once again, it is another burden on the cost of doing business in Ireland.

High insurance costs are hurting jobs, businesses and families. We need action. Will the Tánaiste confirm when the action points in the report on the cost of employer liability and public liability insurance will be completed? When will the Government implement all the recommendations in the report on the cost of motor insurance? Will the Government actually do something to address the burden being faced by insurance holders rather than just talking about it?

The role of the CCPC, independent of the Government, is working. That is why it has a live investigation under way. That is the way it should be. If there are concerns about appropriate levels of competition, an independent investigation must happen, separate from the political system or the Government, in a robust manner, which is what is happening now.

The recommendations of the cost of insurance working group include enhancing the powers of the Personal Injuries Assessment Board to include regular reviews of the book of quantum and greater detail, establishing the Personal Injuries Commission, which is reviewing personal injuries claims internationally with a view to benchmarking these, improving the personal injuries litigation framework, including through the existing provisions regarding notification of claims, and provisions to penalise fraudulent activity. There are significant recommendations on the back of good work which has been done by the Government. We are acting in implementing those recommendations which is exactly what we should be doing.

Yesterday on Leaders' Questions, I put it to the Minister for Education and Skills that central to building confidence in our health system must be the need for information, clarity and accountability. The Government has repeatedly pledged in the wake of the CervicalCheck scandal that this would be forthcoming. The Taoiseach said there would be a package of supports available to the women affected and to their families. He also said last week that pending court cases would be dealt with through mediation.

However, we understand that more cases are to be lodged this week. During yesterday's sitting of the Committee of Public Accounts, the solicitor for Vicky Phelan, Cian O’Carroll, spoke of two women who do not have time on their hands and have difficulty accessing their own medical records.

In an incident last Friday he described how, when the legal representatives made arrangements to collect documents that they were assured would be available at the CervicalCheck headquarters in Limerick, they were told on arrival that the documentation would not be made available and they were escorted off the premises. This was done in the presence of the programme manager for CervicalCheck, Mr. John Gleeson. That is hardly in keeping with the approach outlined by Government, is it? Stephen Teap told the Committee of Public Accounts that no support services were provided to him or his children at this point. Again, this is out of step with what has been promised by Government.

It would seem that what has come from Government is more about being seen to take action and get control of the situation rather than delivering substantive action. What the Government needs to do is take control of this issue. Those in government are not commentators. They are in charge and they need to act like it. The cervical cancer audit, which has been available since 2014, still has not been published despite assurances given last week that it would. Information in respect of the US laboratory detection rates that was promised to the Joint Committee on Health two weeks ago still has not been published. Why the delay? Why the wait? Is the Government not lifting the telephone and demanding that these records be put into the public domain? Will the Government do that? Will the Government ensure that it is published today? This is not a new request. This documentation has been promised.

I want to return to the issue I raised yesterday because it was not answered by the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy Bruton. It relates to when the then Minister for Health, and now Taoiseach, promised to introduce mandatory disclosure, but he decided not to proceed on the advice of the chief medical officer, Dr. Tony Holohan. It was the wrong advice and the wrong decision. The chief medical officer was informed of the CervicalCheck scandal around the same time as this advice was given to the Taoiseach. A reasonable question is whether that advice and the information provided at the time to the then Minister for Health was informed as a result of the CervicalCheck scandal or indeed any other scandal. Will the Government publish that advice today? Will the Government publish the advice that the then Minister for Health got at the time as well as the advice the Government got to ensure that, late last year, it withdrew from the legislation that was going through these Houses the provisions for mandatory disclosure?

There are many questions being asked and many questions being answered today in multiple forums, as has been the case in recent weeks, including at Leaders' Questions, the Committee of Public Accounts and the Joint Committee on Health. We also have a statutory inquiry-----

It is not statutory.

My apologies. We have a scoping inquiry under way that will report initially in the first week of June and it will be finalised by the end of June. It will be followed by a statutory inquiry.

There is no question that any information or files are going to be hidden from anyone. As Vicky Phelan said yesterday, what is needed is full accountability and that is what is going to be delivered. What we are doing as a Government is trying to ensure that the information we put into the public domain now is fully accurate and complete. That is why we want to ensure Dr. Scally can get on with the work he needs to do while respecting the fact that the committees have important work to do as well. The work they have done in recent weeks has been most valuable.

Deputy Doherty referred to supports for victims of this scandal. I have met Stephen Teap and spoken to him on several occasions. It was Stephen Teap's contribution and what he was looking for in terms of support that influenced the way in which the package was shaped and how we would tailor support for individuals and their families with medical cards, out-of-pocket expenses and others supports and counselling that may be needed. It is by listening to people like Vicky Phelan, Stephen Teap and Emma Mhic Mhathúna that the Government has tried to respond as comprehensively as it can to provide tailor-made individual packages for families and individuals who need them from the HSE. Not only that, we are appointing people within the HSE who appoint people to talk to families and individuals to ensure we get the supportive packages right. That is a significant and important delivery for the Government to follow through on for victims and their families.

Deputy Doherty referred to accountability. We are already seeing, and we will continue to see, an insistence that no one is excluded from full scrutiny regardless of what offices people hold or who they are. The way in which we can do that most comprehensively is to let Dr. Scally get on with the work that he needs to do and the follow-on inquiry that will come afterwards.

The package of supports announced last week has not filtered through to the victims. Stephen Teap was before the committee. No support has been provided to him since then. We had the announcement. We had the press release but the follow-up has been wanting, to say the least, and that is not acceptable. This needs to be about the victims - the women and their families. Assurances from the Tánaiste that the Government is appointing people within the HSE to liaise with them one week on are simply not good enough.

I have asked the Tánaiste about information that does not represent a new request but that has already been promised. Are we going to see the cervical cancer audit of 2014 published? Are we going to see the documentation relating to the detection rates of the US laboratories published, as promised to the Joint Committee on Health two weeks ago? Will the Government publish the advice provided to the Taoiseach in respect of his U-turn on mandatory non-disclosure in 2016 as well as the advice provided in 2017 that encouraged the Government to withdraw the provision from the legislation that was passing through the House?

This is my final point. After eight days of searching for documentation, two individuals who do not have time on their hands were given assurances that the documentation would be in Limerick. Then, they were told that the documentation would not be provided to them and they were escorted off the facility. This is not the compassionate approach those of us in the House want to see in dealing with victims of this scandal. The Tánaiste should not tolerate it. The Government needs to take a hold and get a grip on this situation.

The Government is getting a grip of this situation. We are prioritising victims first. That is why we will seek for packages to be put in place for people in a very supportive environment and in a proactive way coming from the HSE as opposed to expecting victims or families to have to seek those packages.

For what it is worth, both Stephen Teap and Vicky Phelan spent time last night with the Minister for Health, Deputy Harris, after their powerful testimony at the committee hearing. The Minister sought to ensure from our perspective that we fully understand what is needed by victims and their families in order that we can follow through in a comprehensive way. No victims should be treated in a way that adds any further to the trauma they have witnessed and the challenges that they continue to have to face, especially in the cases of the women who have cancer. I can assure Deputy Doherty of that.

If any commitments were made to make files or documentation available to committees, then that information will be forthcoming.

I appeal to the Tánaiste, in the last week of this most historic campaign on the referendum to repeal the eighth amendment, to join me in putting some things to bed with the public, who are continually indicating that there is a degree or level of confusion about what this is about. Will the Tánaiste join me in saying to the population that women's lives matter indeed and that this referendum is not about a licence to kill, as has been indicated by posters, women being murderers, or the wholescale slaughter of babies with disability?

It is about an emotive, sensitive and deeply personal issue related to women's health. In that context, women need to be given the right to make decisions about their lives. The results of a poll published today in The Irish Times were very interesting. They showed that when asked whether they would like the eighth amendment to be repealed, 44% of respondents answered "Yes". However, when asked whether they believed the law in Ireland needed to be changed to recognise a woman's right to choose to have an abortion, 62% of respondents answered "Yes". The confusion has been caused by imagery that is deliberately misleading and false and messaging that is untruthful and makes a mockery of women's lives and the deeply divisive and difficult choices they must often make.

We want to move away from the legacy of the Magdalen laundries, mother and baby homes in Tuam and elsewhere, the shaming and stigmatising of women and the wholesale export and outsourcing of women's healthcare to Britain and elsewhere when they face a crisis pregnancy. We need to endorse the view expressed by Irish people in large numbers that this is about a woman's right to decide. We must provide this clarity in a highly divisive debate in which the issue has been framed in terms of murder and manslaughter and the killing of babies, which is not the case. Later today I will be joined in Buswells Hotel by women who will give testimony about having an abortion for many and various reasons. They include not having a home - as a former Minister with responsibility for housing, the Tánaiste will be well aware of the number of women and children who are homeless; being in an abusive relationship, as we know from the statistics for domestic violence and sexual abuse; not having a decent job; and facing the possibility of losing a job. There are as many reasons as there are women.

I ask the Tánaiste to join me in condemning any attempt to portray women as murderers or paint the referendum as being about a licence to kill people with disabilities or babies. I ask him to join me in clarifying the position for the public.

I thank Deputy Bríd Smith for giving me an opportunity to speak about this issue. As the Taoiseach stated earlier in the week, with some notable exceptions, the referendum campaign has, by and large, been respectful. Given that this is such a divisive and difficult issue for many, people have engaged in considered discussion of it in their homes. I have spoken to many people in their homes about the issue and they want facts. We should try to look at the facts, rather than the posters. We must recognise that in any campaign as emotive and divisive as this one, one gets people who are desperate to win an argument and who may present the facts in a very emotive manner. I respect both sides in the referendum campaign.

I passionately believe and hope the people will vote "Yes" next week because doing so would be a reflection of reality. Abortion is a reality in Ireland and the truth is that the law that applies to abortion for Irish women is British abortion law. Every year thousands of women are given a piece of paper with an address indicating where they should go, as long as it not here, thanks very much. I am not willing to stand over that any more, which is the reason I am advocating a "Yes" vote.

I could make many emotive arguments around rape, incest and fatal foetal abnormalities. I have met many women who had to face these challenges and they chose to speak to me because of this debate. Over time, my perspective on this issue changed on the basis of facts, as opposed to posters, conversations and listening to horror stories that we continue to allow as an unintended consequence of a change made to the Constitution in the 1980s. I do not believe people expected what subsequently transpired. The truth is that abortion is a reality in Ireland and women are making choices without support from the health system and doctors that is appropriate at a time of real vulnerability. If the people give the Oireachtas permission, we must change the current position.

I reassure the many people who are still undecided, those who recognise a change is needed but are a little concerned that it may go too far, that if they vote "Yes", there are many Members of the Oireachtas who will ensure the change we will make in legislation, if given the opportunity to do so, will respect and protect women in a much more comprehensive way than we have been able to do to date. In doing so, we will also recognise the responsibility of the State towards providing protections for the unborn. What the Government is proposing to do, with the support of many other Members, will strike the right balance if we are given the opportunity to do so through a "Yes" vote. We will not be able to do anything if the people vote "No" because it will mean a freezing of time. We will be stuck with all of the dilemmas we face today and turn a blind eye to many of them if we do not choose to change.

I fully agree with everything the Tánaiste said. While I also recognise that a divisive debate is taking place, I want the Tánaiste to join me in stating the use of misleading information and ugly imagery and the claim that what is proposed is a licence to kill are confusing people. If they are asked whether they want to give women the right to decide for themselves, 62% answer "Yes". This is important because whatever the Tánaiste or I think, the question people are being asked is whether they believe women should decide on this societal issue. In the event that the referendum is won and people vote "Yes", we will have to deal with ancillary issues such as making contraception free and having non-ethos, objective and factually based sex education in schools. These are issues that matter for women and if the referendum does not pass, we will continue to condemn women to leave the country and younger women will be condemned to take a pill alone at home and endure a great deal of pain without the medical supervision of their doctors. There is a chill factor attached to the eighth amendment because it criminalises women and their doctors. The Tánaiste should not believe for one moment that this chill factor does not hang over the entire population, including partners and families. While I appreciate his remarks, we must clarify that the referendum is not about a licence to kill.

As I stated previously, there are sincerely held views on both sides of the argument, including in this House, and we need to respect them on such an emotive and personal issue. For that reason, from my experience, the focus of the "Yes" campaign has been on trying to provide people with facts, ensuring doctors are listened to and addressing the challenge the country faces in this matter. Nobody is pro-abortion. What we are trying to do is reduce the number of crisis pregnancies and, insofar as possible, the need for conversations on the termination of pregnancy. A number of initiatives were launched yesterday to reinforce this message, including on education and making contraception free and easy to access. The country is also having a conversation on how Ireland should deal with circumstances in which a decision is made to terminate a pregnancy. For example, what protocols and processes will be in place and how can we wrap the health system around such decisions in a way that is supportive and offers alternatives and facts? We will insist on time being taken for full consideration of all of the issues surrounding a decision of the magnitude of terminating a pregnancy. As I stated, if the country gives the Houses an opportunity to legislate on these issues, we can put in place a much more compassionate and appropriate legal structure than the one in place because of the restrictions in the Constitution.

In the programme for Government negotiations over two years ago, much of the discussion centred around rural Ireland and the losses of services that left a trail of devastation in rural towns and villages throughout Ireland, in particular, in west Cork. Immediately after votes here in the Dáil today, I will return to Ballydehob in west Cork for a public meeting to save the local post office, run efficiently by Ms Bridie Roycroft. This woman is one of many postmasters and mistresses who received letters recently telling them of losses in their future income and offering them a chance to engage in a get-out redundancy. Bridie has come out to the public fighting and is a model for other postmasters and mistresses throughout this country as she has decided to ask her community does it want a post office. From what I have heard, she has got, and will tonight get, overwhelming support in Ballydehob as people plead with Bridie to keep the service open to the community. Ever since she started the public battle, many have cancelled getting payments through direct debit and are now going back to Ballydehob post office for their payments as they knew it was a case of use it or lose it.

Tonight's public meeting will again demonstrate to all how this village needs its post office, and the meeting will be replicated throughout the country in the coming weeks. What do I say to the people of Ballydehob and beyond tonight who will attend? Do I tell them the truth, that Fine Gael Governments, both this and the previous one, have failed as of yet to put new life into the post offices? Over two years ago, the Government promised rural proofing and there was no delivery, as there is now a 15 km limit placed between post offices in rural communities. Two years ago, they promised to look into community banking for post offices - no delivery. Two years ago, they promised to look into the facilitation of motor tax payments through post offices - no delivery. Two years ago, in the programme for Government, they promised that post offices would be a one-stop shop for Government services - no delivery. Many more promises were made but as of yet there has been no delivery on the ground. While Government TDs may lament throughout the country about post office closures in their communities, it is all crocodile tears as they have failed to date to sit down as a Government collectively and honestly looking at saving rural post offices.

Redundancy packages are not a way of solving problems. Communities must come out and save their own post offices but if the Government - this being almost the same Government since 2011 - fails to energise post offices by channelling new services through the door, it has failed these post offices and rural Ireland.

Ballydehob, like other rural towns, cannot afford to lose its post office. The Mizen peninsula, where Ballydehob sits, has seen two banks it had closed by the previous Government, leaving no day-to-day bank service within 40 km for many. They have seen Garda stations closed by the previous Government. Local pubs, shops and businesses have closed in the past few years. Cuts to schools' capitation grants have seen our schools struggle for funds. The closed school bus rule has generated more difficulties for parents in rural communities. The Government cut home help service hours for our elderly and yesterday's report on our cataract service proves the Government let elderly people going blind wait five years for cataract operations in west Cork. This is appalling, as the focus by Government was on how it could force cuts on rural Ireland rather than on how it could work with rural Ireland to rebuild and thrive. What can I say to the people of Ballydehob tonight or to other communities in west Cork who have been let down by successive Governments and who are sick of empty promises to save their post offices?

Let me answer the questions in relation to post offices and other services, but can I just say that the contribution the Deputy has just made would suggest that rural Ireland is dying on its feet? I know west Cork-----

No, I know west Cork well. I know Ballydehob well.

Do something about it then.

I also know that there are parts of west Cork that are thriving. This is a great place to live. There are challenges in relation to post offices and we have worked with An Post. An Post, in particular, has worked with postmasters to come up with an agreed approach to ensure that we have a post office infrastructure that can survive into the future recognising the modern realities that they face.

Nobody is being forced to close. These are voluntary decisions for postmasters to make. What Bridie, I understand, is doing in Ballydehob is challenging people locally to use it or lose it. I congratulate her on it. If one wants to hang on to this post office then let us use it.

Why does the Government not use it?

People have also challenged the Government and we are responding to that. We are seeing parcel services being expanded through the post office network. We are seeing new Government services. There is a digital assist pilot programme being rolled out. An Post has promised new financial services through its post office network before the end of the year. Instead of throwing our hands in the air and saying nothing can be done-----

The Government is sitting on its hands.

-----An Post, working with postmasters and getting agreement and endorsement from them in a ballot, as well as working with the Minister, Deputy Naughten, in particular, who has really taken this issue hugely seriously as a priority in government, is ensuring that we have a future for a post office network that can help a thriving rural economy to grow and develop in the future.

Of course, there is service provision on which we need to focus. I have a whole list of west Cork hospitals in which we are currently investing, from Skibbereen to Bandon, Clonakilty, Dunmanway, Kinsale and Castletownbere. On the other issues the Deputy raised here, such as cataracts, there is ongoing work but we are putting increasing resources into these areas to resolve them.

Let us not paint rural Ireland as part of this country that is dying on its feet-----

The Government is killing it.

-----because it is simply not true.

The Tánaiste does not seem to grasp the seriousness of the situation for people in rural Ireland. He should not stand up here and talk about what the Government is doing for people with cataract operations. For God's sake, let him stop. It is scandalous beyond belief to see the report yesterday of someone five years waiting. The Government let him go blind rather than doing something.

Ballydehob has one of the greatest community spirits in Ireland, safeguarded by one of the finest community gardaí in the country. There is a huge community spirit. Ballydehob is, as I have always called it, the festival capital of Ireland. Almost every weekend, there is a festival. They do work, they work hard but they need their post office, and so do the people of Schull and Goleen, and throughout west Cork. Look at Ballineen post office, with the worry of closure hanging over the community for months as the Government stands idly by and lets it happen.

I call on the Tánaiste today to stand up before the people of this country and say that enough is enough and the Government will co-operate with the Minister, Deputy Naughten, to speed up saving the post office network. The Government must get the Minister for Transport, Tourism and Sport, Deputy Ross, to sit down immediately to work with Deputy Naughten to have motor tax paid through the post offices. This will help rural communities. The Government must start putting rural community banking into post offices, cut out the 15 km rule between post offices and apply that in the cities where there is a proper transport service for people who can travel. They must ensure that the post office will be a one-stop shop for all Government services. This will let the people of Ballydehob and beyond see the Government TDs are not crying crocodile tears for the post office service.

In relation to Government interest and vibrancy in west Cork, we saw 200 jobs created in Skibbereen across three companies last week and the Minister of State at the Department of Jobs, Enterprise and Innovation, Deputy Pat Breen, was there for that. That reinforces what I am saying, that west Cork is a vibrant community. West Cork has challenges that we need to address through policy and An Post is one of the challenges that we are addressing, but that has happened in a way that has the support of postmasters. Nothing is being enforced on anybody.

It is all done by stealth.

If one looks at the new digital assist pilot scheme, two out of the 20 pilots are in west Cork. I take to a certain extent Deputy Michael Collins's point that there are challenges that we need to face to ensure that living in rural Ireland is a vibrant proposition for people and we need to ensure that basic services and infrastructure are there to allow for that, but that is exactly what the Minister, Deputy Naughten, in particular, has taken on board in terms of looking at the new services that we can deliver through the post office network, and those conversations are already taking place in government.

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