We shall now proceed to statements on Covid-19 and questions for the Minister for Education and Skills, Deputy McHugh.
Covid-19 (Education and Skills): Statements
Gabhaim buíochas le mo chomhghleacaithe uilig as an seans labhairt leo inniu faoi na príomhrudaí a bhaineann leis an oideachas. Ar dtús báire, ba mhaith liom focal pearsanta a rá leo maidir leis an chaidreamh dhearfach a bhí eadrainn thar na laethanta agus na seachtaine seo a chuaigh thart agus maidir leis an eolas, comhairle agus rudaí mar sin. Táim ag dúil go mór leis an díospóireacht inniu agus leis na moltaí a dtiocfaidh amach as. Níl an léarscáil atá againn soiléir i gcónaí. Is dúshlán agus míbhuntáiste é sin ach tá rudaí dearfacha ar nós comhrá, comhluadar agus caidreamh iontach tábhachtach.
I extend my condolences to those who have been bereaved as a result of Covid-19 and I spare a thought for those currently battling against the virus. I pay tribute to all those helping in the fight against it and the many front-line staff helping us all to get through it. I thank staff across the education and training sector, including teachers, principals, lecturers, special needs assistants, school secretaries, school caretakers and all those who have made an enormous effort to respond to the unique and unprecedented challenge presented by this crisis. Most importantly, I acknowledge our young people, for whom this is a very challenging time. Their educational interests, safety and well-being will continue to be the heart of my concerns as Minister. This is a view shared across the House.
The message to students is that even when times are good, it is normal to feel stress and worry ahead of examinations. With all the public health measures, there is inevitably more anxiety. The important point is that if you are feeling lost, stressed or unsure, you should reach out. Your friends, family, teachers, school and community do care about you and want the best for you. You are not alone. All of us struggle to adapt and adjust in times of great change but remember you are playing your part.
We are all in this together and I am grateful to colleagues across the House for their collaborative approach to date. The views of Deputies have been important in informing my approach to critical decisions. I refer in particular to the strong preference shown by Deputies at the briefing on 1 April for holding the leaving certificate examinations. I also thank the education partners, the teacher unions, students, parents, principals and management bodies that are meeting regularly to help us chart the way forward. In particular, I acknowledge a very strong voice in the Irish Second-Level Students Union, Ms Ciara Fanning, who, with her team, has been very competent in leading the way and leading the charge in providing a platform and a voice for young people.
It is exactly six weeks since the Taoiseach announced the closure of schools and educational institutions. The people across the education and training sector have shown an agile and innovative response to this national crisis. There have been phenomenal efforts right across schools, further education centres, higher education institutions to ensure continuity of learning to support students and to seek to mitigate educational disadvantage. Since the beginning of the crisis, my Department has significantly reoriented its structures in order to steer an effective response in the education and training sector. At the core of this has been significant stakeholder engagement to quickly identify emerging issues and shape responses. Each of the new engagement structures is meeting regularly. I thank all the education partners for their strong and constructive engagement.
Ensuring continuity of learning has been a key issue. All schools have been asked to continue to plan lessons and, where possible, provide online resources for students or online lessons where they are equipped to do so. A series of guidance notes to assist schools in how to support and effectively engage with their students has been compiled to address challenges in providing programmes of continued learning in the current context.
Contingency plans have been developed by higher education institutions and the further education and training system for shifting to online provision, and assessment of third level programmes has also been implemented across the tertiary education sector comprising higher education and further education and training. RTÉ has developed a home school hub which is an additional support for parents and primary school pupils and this week TG4 began to broadcast "Cúla4 ar Scoil". There has been a major focus on supporting the needs of vulnerable groups, including those with special educational needs, those from disadvantaged backgrounds for whom a loss of school time can be most harmful, homeless children and children in temporary accommodation and refugee centres or asylum seekers' accommodation.
I announced yesterday a major €50 million funding package as part of our suite of measures to support all students particularly those at risk of disadvantage due to Covid-19 school closures. This includes a special €10 million fund to support the purchase of technology and devices for disadvantaged students. A total of €7 million additional funding will be provided in the post-primary sector and €3 million in the primary sector. This is part of an overall response which has included guidance being issued to all schools to support the ongoing learning of children with special educational needs and children who are at risk of disadvantage; collaboration with Cisco to support schools with training in Webex video; conference software for use by teachers with their classes; guidance and resources developed by the National Council for Special Education for supporting children with special educational needs; continuation of the school meals programme funded through the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection to provide food parcels to children who are at risk of food poverty; continued funding of home tuition or, where this is not possible, flexibility to bank hours for use at a later time in the year; and resources to support good mental health and well-being among students, produced by the National Educational Psychological Service.
I also acknowledge the contribution of the education and training sector to the wider national effort from the phenomenal response of the special needs assistants, SNAs, to the call for redeployment of the critical contribution which our higher educational institutions are making to the clinical and research response to this crisis. All this tells a tale of the ongoing commitment across the sector to continuing to provide education and support services in the most unprecedented situation that society has found itself in.
I will do my best to answer as many questions as possible this evening from Deputies as we continue to work to support our education and training system in responding to this crisis.
I understand Deputy Thomas Byrne is sharing time with Deputy Lawless, six minutes and four minutes.
Yes, and maybe the Minister would reply individually to us within the six for me and four for Deputy Lawless. Would that be acceptable?
Yes, as long as we stay within the time.
The Minister will finish then and leave four minutes for Deputy Lawless, and if he does not have time, he does not have time.
That is all right.
That sounds like a good deal.
It is fair to say that while I have been accepting of the decisions of the Department of Education and Skills in this crisis I am not best pleased by its approach over recent weeks. The Minister mentioned a briefing for Deputies on 1 April. When he spoke in Irish he mentioned the good relations among parties in the House and, yes, we have spoken on several occasions. I asked for a briefing two weeks ago and was promised it by telephone but it never happened. The Department of Health runs regular briefings for Deputies but the Department of Education and Skills has not done that. A lot of what has happened and the mistakes that have been made could have been avoided with more political engagement.
The one thing that students need is clarity. The reason they do not have that is the constant stream of leaks from the Department of Education and Skills which are adding to great uncertainty. I believe the Minister was forced into his Good Friday decision by the fact that there was an unauthorised leak to The Irish Times. I wish no disrespect to the journalists, who are doing their jobs, and indeed the Taoiseach referred on Instagram to postponing the leaving certificate before anybody knew about it. Since then the Minister for Health has been musing about schools possibly returning for a day a week and the Minister for Education and Skills made an announcement on Good Friday about the junior certificate, which seems to have been supplanted by what the Department is saying unofficially to RTÉ that there will be no State-certified exams. That is not what he said when he gave his decision on Good Friday. This uncertainty has to end. I have been pleading with the Minister to end it for some time but it has not ended yet. It is lethal and very discouraging to students.
The voids are real. Not many families have multiple laptops for students to use. In our house the kids are fighting over laptops. They are only in primary school. I do not know what it would be like for a family with a kid doing the leaving certificate or one with a kid doing the leaving certificate and another doing the junior certificate, and other kids trying to study too. I know of teachers living at home with their parents, as many young teachers do, where there is hardly any broadband.
They do not have the access necessary to enable them to teach their students. It is difficult and the kids are losing out.
While the Minister's plan for the junior certificate seems to have unravelled to some extent, I hope that he has a good, solid plan B in place for the leaving certificate. The goalposts keep changing. When he made his decision on Good Friday and announced it, I assumed that he was acting on the basis of public health advice. I asked for that advice but have not received it. The public health advice received by the Department asserting that the exams could go ahead in the late summer and early autumn, or the manner in which they would take place, has never been publicised. Since then, there have been briefings to education partners trying to work all of that out.
I accept that we are in an emergency and I have been accepting of the decisions made, but the Department of Education and Skills has not handled this to the best extent possible. It was slow to recognise the reality of broadband, socioeconomic and other divides. Some kids simply do worse outside a classroom setting. All Deputies raised these issues on 1 April, particularly that of broadband and devices. An announcement was made yesterday, which was three weeks later, on this matter, but that will take some time to implement.
What is the Minister's plan for the leaving certificate? Is it happening? Has the Minister worked out a plan B? Has he considered that the ultimate purpose of the leaving certificate is to show that students have finished school and allow them to enter college on a fair and transparent basis? There are other ways of doing it and we have supported what the Department has been doing, but it has been frustrating to see the constant stream of leaks in newspapers. If that has been frustrating for me, as a Deputy, then the frustration felt by the students doing the exams is multiple times that which I have experienced.
I thank the Deputy.
Is it okay if the Minister answers now?
If the Deputies want him to. It is up to them.
Does Deputy Lawless wish to come in now?
I will commence at the four-minute mark if the Minister wishes to respond between now and then.
Yes. I will be as brief as possible.
I apologise for Deputy Byrne not getting the briefing. I will ensure that it happens.
The clarity that was asked of me at the briefing on 1 April when we were all on a web conference was about whether the leaving certificate would be going ahead in June. The demand made of me that day was that clarity was needed ASAP, be that the next day or within a couple of days. I responded by giving that clarity and stating that the exams would not go ahead in June and would be postponed until late July and early August. I did that in order to provide clarity to students, who had been asking whether the exams could go ahead in June.
The Deputy asked about the public health advice. The decision to postpone the exams was based on the fact that schools would be closed until 5 May. That meant that we could not ensure a six-week lead-in period for schools to build students up, inform them and give them enough time. It took away the six-week minimum period and we would have had to prepare for two weeks back at school. That informed the Department's recommendations and my decision to postpone the leaving certificate until late July and early August. It is still my intention and belief that leaving certificate students need to be in their classes for a minimum of six weeks. At the heart of all these deliberations is the public health advice. That is because the health and well-being of our students are at the heart of any decision that I make.
I am sorry, but we need to give Deputy Lawless two minutes.
I thank the Minister. I will be as brief as I can because time is of the essence. I will ask two short questions on the leaving certificate. I will then concentrate the rest of my contribution on the third level sector.
It has been put to me that fees for sitting the leaving certificate are payable at the end of this month. Given the constraints and economic conditions, some parents and families are under pressure with those fees. Perhaps the deadline could be extended in light of the fact that the exams are being postponed. A reasonable suggestion has been put to me. Given the fact that the curriculum has advanced to a particular appoint - it probably fell off in February just before schools were suspended - perhaps a reduced curriculum for exam purposes could be considered. For example, if there are normally 20 poets on the literature paper, perhaps 15 of those could be confirmed and that could be communicated.
It might give a little bit of a confidence boost to students and help them focus their studies and reflect the fact that, despite their best efforts to learn remotely, they may not catch up with the studies they have missed in school.
I will spend the remainder of my contribution focusing on the third level sector. It is fair to state that science is recognised as core in the fight back against the virus here and globally and that experts, despite the ebb and flow in how they were regarded politically in recent years, are again respected. Science is back in the spotlight, and rightly so. It is also fair to say that those countries which invest heavily in research and development and science, such as South Korea and New Zealand, which punch above their weight and which spend at least 2.5% and more of GDP spent on research and development, have done well in the fight against Covid-19. This is not a coincidence. Of course, I commend our domestic efforts but a lesson we can learn is that the value of science can never be underestimated.
The plight of fixed-term researchers has not received attention to date. There are 14,500 such individuals in this country.
One and a half minutes remain for the reply.
They are the workhorses of the research sector. These people are caught between two stools because they cannot perform their experiments, work in their laboratories or attend their universities and they also are not eligible for the wage subsidy scheme. The laboratories and higher education institutions are running down their grant money to pay their wages as a humanitarian response in the context of the welfare of their researchers. This grant money will be exhausted and we will potentially lose three years' worth of work instead of three months' worth because programmes that were time-boxed and grant-funded will run out of time, steam and money before the work is finished.
I thank the Deputy.
I suggest to the Minister that the wage subsidy scheme be made available to these fixed-term researchers, which seems an obvious solution, or that a commitment be given that no research institute will fall short of funding to continue its work when researchers can return to the laboratories.
Half a minute remains for the reply.
More generally, with regard to the plight of the universities, their income from international students, accommodation and private sector collaboration has gone through floor. There will need to be massive support for the universities when this is over.
I am afraid that there are only 22 seconds remaining.
The Deputy raised the issue of fees to be paid at the end of the month. We will extend that date until after the exams. This is only fair and I thank the Deputy for raising the matter.
With regard to the structure and timetabling of exams, I have set up an advisory group to work on this. The advisory group has already met and will meet again tomorrow. It will meet twice a week. It comprises parent representation, students and unions. They are all around the table and they will work through how we do it. This will be very important because they will work with the various instructions coming from the health officials. It will be a very important group with regard to the determination on where we move in July and August.
The Deputy made some very interesting suggestions regarding third level education. We have the higher education authority group led by Mr. William Beausang. All of the members are listening to this debate and we will take what the Deputy has said on board.
I have been contacted by students throughout the State who are under severe pressure. To do the leaving certificate any year is extremely testing, much more so against the background of a pandemic and much more so again against a background of such complete uncertainty. They are worried and anxious and, what is more, they are frustrated and angry at the lack of detail and the fact that many ideas are first floated half-formed in the media rather than concrete full plans being proposed.
I am also frustrated. I appreciate that the Department is busy. I have had some good conversations with many of the officials and I am grateful for the discussions I have had with the Minister, but I have submitted dozens of questions in writing to the Minister and many of them have not received an adequate response. Students need certainty and clarity. Níl sé maith go leor agus tá sé ag cur leis an mbrú agus leis an strus atá ar scoláirí. It is provoking absolutely massive mental health issues for many students. There are huge, unanswered questions about how the Department will deliver the leaving certificate. What will the timetable be? How will it work with social distancing? Can it work? How will we tackle the chasm that has opened up between students in terms of disadvantage and digitally? We need clarity.
I want to use the rest of my time to get answers to questions. I will give way and ask for a brief response and I hope the Minister will be efficient.
I was contacted today by the father of a student who has two conditional offers to study medicine in Britain. Both universities are insisting that those offers will be lost unless leaving certificate results are issued before 31 August 2020. Can the Minister tell Irish students that the results they need will be ready in time for Irish universities and, more urgently, under the UCAS system and internationally?
On the first issue, that individual is one of 4,000 people who have applied to England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. It is a major issue and that is why I picked up the phone to the Secretary of State for Education in London, Gavin Williamson. My Department's Secretary General is in contact with his counterpart in London as well, and I have written formally to the Northern Ireland Education Minister, Peter Weir, in regard to this issue. We need to find a solution because we are talking about 4,000 applicants. It is an issue that is on the radar. While I do not have an answer for the Deputy today, it is certainly an issue we are taking seriously.
Will the Minister ensure that additional dedicated mental health supports are provided to students via a helpline or online, or however it is needed?
This is an incredibly important issue. Like the Deputy, I am getting a lot of direct contact, primarily from students but from some parents as well. There is much stress and anxiety. There is the shock that people are dealing with but there is also the shock of not knowing where we will be in September, October or November, never mind where we will be next week. There is uncertainty in terms of the overall pandemic but for students, and specifically leaving certificate students, we are going to announce formally in the next couple of days a whole outreach and interactive support system. It will be a combined announcement between the Department of Health and the Department of Education and Skills, and well-being will be at its heart. For students who are under stress and pressure, and suffering from anxiety, we are going to have that dedicated helpline. We will make the announcement in a couple of days.
I am glad to hear that and I look forward to seeing the detail. On what date will the Minister outline the full details of the timetable, including the procedure for exam halls and papers? Will he publish the detail of any plan B he is preparing?
The significant dates are that the leaving certificate is to start on 29 July. We are working on the timetable, which is important. As outlined earlier, that is going to be tested through the advisory group in the context of how we work within the public health advice. The Deputy asked when that will be ready, and it will be in the first week of June. Tomorrow week is 1 May, so, four weeks after that there will be information on timetabling and the structure of the exams. The reason we are leaving it until the first week of June is that we want to have as much available advice as possible on where we stand with the curve and with the pandemic. The reason we are leaving it until 1 June is to have as much information as possible available in order to hold the exams later in July.
Will that be published?
All the conversations we are having are through the dedicated advisory group. As recently as last Friday, the Irish Second-Level Students Union raised issues such as plan B and what are the contingencies, such as contingencies for sickness or bereavement. All of these pertinent questions are being asked. We are going to work on the contingencies and we will not go into this in a blinkered way because we are living in a real world of uncertainty.
I appreciate that is very important. Plan B needs to be as nailed down as plan A because things could move quickly.
I have been lobbied by many students who are either living with somebody who might be vulnerable or who are worried that they might be displaying symptoms. If that was to happen at the time of the exams, what provision would be made?
Again, that is one of the questions to be explored by the working group. The group will be very busy. It will be meeting formally twice a week but there will be a constant conversation in between. Again, we are not - and, as Minister for Education and Skills, I certainly am not - going to put any student in jeopardy in terms of his or her health or healthcare needs. While the group works through the logistics of the exams, part of that mapping out will be the public health stipulations and criteria, which will be central to any decision.
As the Deputy outlined, things change very fast but we are working within those parameters. The next major announcement on 5 May by the National Public Health Emergency Team and the Government will be another step towards being in a more informed position as to what will happen after that.
I will not take up any more time by seeking answers but I appreciate that. We need clarity on that very soon. I would also say, and I do not want the Minister to respond now because it would be taking from my colleague's time, that people doing construction studies and project work need certainty also.
I raise the issue of children with additional needs who might rely on special needs assistants, SNAs, or even resource hours. I refer to children with autism. What supports are currently in place for them as it is a very difficult time for them and their families? Routine is very important, particularly around autism, but these children's lives have been turned upside down. What supports are currently available? My experience is that, unfortunately, there is very little support available. Crucially, what supports will be available in September? I refer to the length of time children have been out of school, particularly if they already struggle and need resource hours. Schools usually have to battle for those hours and for special needs assistants. I would like a guarantee or reassurance that these children will get extra supports in September or will we see many children being forced to repeat various classes, which would be very unfair?
I should have said at the outset that I am combining my two questions to the Minister. My other question relates to school readiness. Something that all of this has shown us is how much we rely on the two years of early childhood care and education, ECCE. I know that does not fall directly into the Minister's brief but in terms of children's first experience of education, the ECCE year, or two years as it is now, is very valuable. Many facilities do not believe they will be able to reopen because the supports that have been announced do not go far enough. One measure we suggested was a sustainability fund for this sector. That is important because we need to know that, come September, these pre-schools will be able to open again and offer that service to children. In that regard, will there be any extension of the ECCE year for children who might benefit from that given that they had to finish up on 12 March? It goes back to the first question about children who might be struggling and who might benefit from extra time or supports. Will any consideration be given to that?
I would make the point that it is crazy for those of us who are elected to this House to be limited to two and three minutes to ask questions on what is a crisis.
I agree. Unfortunately, the rules are in front of me. I would like to change them-----
I just wanted to put that on the record.
-----even retrospectively, but I do not think it would be well received.
The first point the Deputy raised was about additional needs and resource hours. We issued guidelines yesterday to all schools and principals to ensure that we connect with our most vulnerable students. That attention to detail will continue. Second, many of our SNAs have already been engaged in ensuring that continuity of connection between their students within schools. The feedback we are getting formally and also anecdotally is that that relationship is very strong but anything we can do to ensure there are additional resources or to protect the existing resource hours will be kept to the forefront.
The Deputy raised the issue of childcare, the ECCE years and what will happen in September. We are in the space where we are working within public health advice but I am happy to raise that issue with my colleague, the Minister for Children and Youth Affairs, Katherine Zappone.
The next speakers are Deputies Feighan and Carey who are sharing ten minutes, evenly or otherwise.
And Deputy Peter Burke as well.
One third each for the questions and answers.
I thank the Acting Chairman for his generosity. I ask the Minister about large-scale capital infrastructure projects such as the new building extension at Summerhill College, Sligo, and other classroom infrastructure projects in my constituency such as the ASD unit at Abbey Community College, Boyle. The projects were announced by the Department last year. Will they be able to commence construction next year? Will the funding be in place to ensure that these types of projects nationwide can be developed despite the financial realities for the State due to Covid-19?
Another issue is food parcels for DEIS schools. Due to the Covid-19 crisis there is great difficulty in delivering these to vulnerable families. There was a very worthwhile initiative with An Post, but there appears to be a problem. What will the Minister be able to do to ensure that some schools will be able to deliver these food parcels to vulnerable households?
On the continuation of work, whether it is tendering within the Department, the building unit in Tullamore or land procurement, that work is ongoing. Any work we can do while complying with social distancing continues. Regarding the specific issues the Deputy raised, once construction is allowed again we will be in a position to move on a number of projects, but I will refer back to the Deputy directly on those two matters.
As regards the food parcels, I acknowledge the work of An Post coming on board with this and the goodwill it showed from the beginning and continues to show, but it is a massive logistical exercise. There are over 1,600 schools in the DEIS programme and An Post is working with some schools. With other schools voluntary groups such as the GAA, the Society of St. Vincent de Paul and other organisations are working on the distribution of food. It is an enormous logistical exercise and I acknowledge everybody who is doing anything to ensure the delivery of food to disadvantaged students.
I am seeking an update on school transport with regard to refunds for pupils and their parents and regarding the school bus operators. The bus operators were paid the normal rate after the initial announcement of the schools closing, but when the closures were extended during the Easter holidays their pay was cut by 50%. Can the Minister clarify the situation regarding refunds for pupils and their parents and the arrangement for bus contractors? Second, applications for the school transport scheme for new applicants must be made by tomorrow. Does that still remain the position?
I thank the Deputy for raising this question and for his ongoing engagement on these issues. He is correct that when the first announcement was made the school bus operators were paid 100% and after the extension of the closure they were paid 50%. I have had discussions with officials about this and it is only right that bus operators be paid up to the end of term, irrespective of schools opening or not. That is only right and I wish to put that on record. Regarding refunds, many parents have paid for school transport. Like my previous point, I believe it is only right that they get refunds. We are in the process of working out what is the best and fairest way of doing that, but it will have to be pro rata for the time they did not use the bus transport. We are examining that issue. Will the Deputy remind me of the last question?
Applications have to be made by 24 April, which is tomorrow.
That is still the case. If there is a further update on that I will refer back directly to the Deputy.
I thank the Minister for his ongoing engagement and transparency on the leaving certificate. It is very complex and he is operating in a fast moving situation regarding the pandemic. It is important that he engaged in the way he has with the peers and leaving certificate students through the various fora. I have a question about the €116 payment for the first-time leaving certificate in view of the uncertainty surrounding the leaving certificate and parents and families being under significant pressure due to loss of income. If one has a medical card one is exempt from the fee.
Is there anything more the Minister can do in connection with reducing the burden and hardship of these fees for each family and household?
I know the Minister is very familiar with the Holy Family National School in Mullingar. I have raised the issue bi-weekly and have been in the Minister's office on a number of occasions on it. The Minister has been to Mullingar discussing it also. It is very important that the school is on the cusp of completion. I was there during the week before the outbreak of the Covid-19 pandemic and it was very heartening to see furniture in most of the classrooms and the paintwork almost finished. The mechanical and engineering works were at 97% at that juncture. An extremely inordinate amount of pressure was put onto the project in the last months and weeks to bring it to that stage. I thank the Minister and the Department for their engagement in doing that. I also acknowledge the staff of Holy Family National School. The teachers gave a lot of their time in looking after students while they were situated in St. Loman's during what was a very difficult and stressful period. Students also had to travel to St. Etchen's in Kinnegad, which was very stressful for those families. I acknowledge Mr. Michael Molloy, all the staff at the school and the parents for bearing with it to date.
I thank Deputy Burke for the issues he has raised and also the point about the leaving certificate fee. I am announcing today the extension of the late payment for the leaving certificate fee until after the leaving certificate exams. I take the Deputy's point on the difficulties some families will experience and are experiencing with financial pressures. This has been an item at nearly every one of our management board meetings in the last couple of weeks and we will continue to have that discussion.
If there is an example in the State of patience it is the Holy Family National School and its community. They have had so many false dawns. The last time I spoke on this I believe I used the line that I did not want to "tempt fate" by putting another date on the project. This time, because of the uncertainty, we do not know what the public health guidance will be around construction. I do know, however, from the information I received from the people directly involved with the Holy Family National School project, that once construction workers come back in there - the Deputy has pointed out correctly that the majority of classrooms are furnished at this stage - then we are talking of a period of perhaps three weeks or a month to get it finished. Hopefully things will move and progress after that.
I thank Deputy Burke for all of his engagement on that issue. It was very important that we went to Mullingar to see exactly and to hear and get a good feel for the dilemma the community was going through at the time. Hopefully there is light at the end of the tunnel.
There is one minute remaining in the slot.
The past few weeks have been like nothing any of us has ever seen. Yet, in the face of crisis this country has shown the good grace for which we are known through an incredible example of unity, sacrifice, kindness, compassion, discipline and good humour.
Thank you has been said many times in this House and by many across the country but it bears repeating to the front-line staff across the island who are working heroically to keep us safe. These are the front-line healthcare workers who deal with the dangers of Covid-19 daily, the retail workers and all those who ensure that the chain of food and vital services is kept open, our Garda and our firefighters.
Our thoughts are with all those who have died and with their families, friends and communities who have been deprived of being able to mourn properly the tragedy of their passing.
In the same way the country has come together, we in Dáil Éireann have co-operated and worked together to an unprecedented level to enact emergency legislation. It is a shame, however, that this unity of focus and purpose did not go further at this time through forming an inclusive, national Government, not just to play the vital role of managing the daunting and prolonged crisis by bringing as many people as possible on that journey, but by also ensuring that people of all walks of life, as many as possible, buy into and play a constructive role in the incredibly difficult Covid-19 recovery phase that lies ahead. It is regretful that some continue to practise exclusion and selectivity in politics, even at this time when we all need to come together.
It may yet prove that the idea of a unity government is only temporarily parked rather than permanently shelved and may re-emerge for consideration. That may become more apparent in the near future if other options, after being exhausted, do not produce white smoke.
This has been a particularly trying time for all of those in the education sector, including students, teachers, parents and all staff who work in our educational institutions. I have a number of questions. I will ask all of them, and if the Minister does not have enough time to answer, perhaps he will furnish me with a written reply if he has time.
One of the primary issues facing the sector relates to the postponement of the leaving certificate. The unprecedented situation in which we find ourselves is already having an immense impact on students' mental health. On 10 April it was announced that exams would be postponed until later in the summer. Very little was clear and this announcement left students with more questions than answers and added further to their stress and confusion about the situation. On Tuesday evening this week I, like thousands of others, found out through social media that the Minister had announced the provisional date of 29 July during an informal questions and answers Instagram video. This casual delivery of vital and important information is simply unacceptable and shows a lack of regard for students and their welfare at this time.
Many students were calling for a predicted grades system as an alternative to the leaving certificate exam. Has the Minister investigated the possibility of this alternative? Does he have a contingency plan prepared and ready to go if the crisis continues in such a way that it is impossible to hold the exams in July and August? When will we get sight of that plan? What extra provisions will be put in place to ensure that the mental well-being of students will be supported as they continue through their extended school year?
At third level, our students are facing a wide variety of issues but housing and academic uncertainty around assessment are two of the most pressing. The Minister indicated to me in a Covid query response last week that he would like to see private providers of student accommodation provide pro rata refunds. This issue has arisen for many students not just in respect of refunds but also the retention of deposits by landlords. Has the Minister taken any concrete steps to tackle this issue or prepared any real measures to do so? While six of our seven universities are offering pro rata refunds to students who have to vacate their accommodation, it is my understanding that the University of Limerick is still refusing to do so. The Department has been engaging with the university with regard to this issue. Will the Minister outline what progress has been made?
When it comes to deferrals or alternative arrangements for assessment, it is not just about timing and delay. The issue of support for students is also involved. Many students' ability to support themselves through higher and further education is dependent on the availability of work during the summer. Such work is unlikely to be available to many this year. It is also dependent on SUSI supports, which are based on income levels from 2019 which does not take into account the enormous changes in circumstances faced by many students and their families in 2020. What measures is the Minister putting in place to protect not just students' academic futures but their ability to support themselves for the next academic year? Will there be any alternative assessment of financial circumstances given the current context?
Cad iad na hacmhainní a bheidh ar fáil do dhaltaí le Gaeilge mar chéad teanga - daltaí Gaeltachta agus daltaí na nGaelscoileanna uile sa tír? Molaim an obair atá á dhéanamh ag TG4 chun freastal ar na páistí seo ach cad a dhéanfaidh Roinn an Aire chun a leasa? Cén cúiteamh a bheidh ar fáil do phobail Ghaeltachta agus cúrsaí samhraidh na gcoláistí ar ceal? Braitheann na Gaeltachtaí go mór ar na daltaí agus múinteoirí a thagann gach bliain. Nílim ag tagairt do na coláistí agus na mná tí amháin ach do na gnóthaí timpeall orthu. Tá níos lú airgid ag dul go dtí Gaeltachtaí na tíre ná aon áit eile. Gan cúnamh ón Rialtas, beidh na pobail seo agus an teanga Ghaeilge thíos go mór leis an ngéarchéim seo.
Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta. I concur with her introductory comments regarding front-line workers. If I do not get through all of this, I will ask for a direct response to be organised for her.
The postponement of the leaving certificate was the first issue raised. One of the things we attempted to do was to bring clarity around whether it was happening in June or not. The postponing of the leaving certificate until the end of July was both an indication and a commitment that we were going to work towards making that happen. The Deputy is correct in saying that during a conversation with approximately 18,000 students online on Instagram - they were not necessarily all leaving certificate students although a lot of them were - I said we were looking at a provisional date of 29 July. One of the things I was accused of was not communicating directly with the young people themselves and I thought that engagement was a good opportunity to do so.
On the issue of predicted grades, plan B and contingency, we are working on all contingencies because we do not anticipate that things will be normal any time soon. We do not anticipate that we will be any more or less informed next week or the following week. We just do not know, and with that level of uncertainty, we have a moral obligation and duty to work on all contingencies and we are doing that. The vehicle for doing that is the stakeholders themselves. The students' voice is critical which is why the Irish Second-Level Students Union, ISSU, is at the heart of this, as is the parents' voice, that of the teacher unions and the different patron bodies. That group is critical in determining how we move forward and answer the question as to how we do this at the end of July or the beginning of August.
With regard to mental well-being, there will be an announcement in a couple of days. There has been a lot of engagement between officials from the Departments of Education and Skills; and Health. There must be a reach-out service for young people and I would encourage them, when that is announced, to use it. I know that young people live in the real world and have a lot of interaction with teachers. There is a lot of teacher to student support, whether that be from a guidance counsellor or a physics teacher. That type of support is usually available in schools and I appreciate that the teacher to student, shoulder to shoulder help is not there at the moment. It is a gap that we have identified and we want to add more support in that regard.
The Deputy mentioned the University of Limerick, UL, with which there is an issue at the moment. I have asked my officials to engage with officials from UL. I have asked them to continue with that engagement because we are not getting the answers sought by the people who are directly affected. We will continue with that engagement. I know that is not the answer the Deputy is seeking today but in general, in terms of the private providers, I have asked publicly that they consider pro rata refunds and will continue to do so. I would argue that they have a moral duty or obligation to refund those students who are not in their private rental accommodation today, who were not there last week or the week before and who will not be there next week. There is a duty to look at some form of pro rata reimbursement.
Maidir leis an gceist faoin Gaeilge táim ag breathnú ar rudaí a bhaint amach sna cheantair Ghaeltachta cosúil leis na coláistí samhraidh agus rudaí mar sin agus chomh maith leis sin na bunscoileanna agus na meánscoileanna sna Gaeltachtaí agus ag amharc go dtí an t-am go mbeidh siad ag obair le chéile na scoileanna lasmuigh den Ghaeltacht maidir leis an nGaeilge. Maidir leis na mná tí, tá obair ag dul ar aghaidh idir Roinn Cultúir, Oidhreachta agus na Gaeltachta agus Comhchoiste Náisiúnta na gColáistí Samhraidh CONCOS agus fuair an Roinn moltaí ó CONCOS agus táimid ag fanacht ar an toradh sin.
I thank the Minister for being here. Like others, I have not been impressed by the level of communication on the part of his Department and of sections of this Oireachtas. I wrote to the Minister on 12 March suggesting a collegiate, collaborative partnership approach across the Chamber. We have had one meeting in the past six weeks, on 1 April. The Minister has said much about the advisory group. He has put a lot of stock in it but my understanding is that he has not attended any of the group's meetings. The Minister got support across the Chamber in respect of the oral examinations and political backing regarding the postponement of the leaving certificate, but every issue relating to the Department of Education and Skills has been mishandled. It was once said to me by a leading trade union official that the Department of Education and Skills understands two things, teachers and buildings. If an issue does not relate to a teacher or a building, the Department does not know how to deal with it.
The Minister stated that the leaving certificate will start on 29 July. I ask him to confirm that date because what he says, how he says it and what the Department says has a massive impact on the mental health of the young people who are due to sit these examinations. It is a thumbscrew. It is not good enough for somebody in the Minister's position to state that the examinations might take place in July or in August and for it to be reported in The Irish Times that they might not take place until September. The Taoiseach stated in the House last week that the universities might not reopen until November. Every young person who is due to sit the leaving certificate is hearing all of this and wondering when somebody is going to make a decision. Also, the Government proposes to charge them €116 for the privilege. I am stunned at the Minister's statement that the best he can do is postpone the date for payment of the fee. It should be waived. Students should not be asked to pay €116 for the privilege of sitting the leaving certificate this year, particularly in light of what the majority of families are going through. The Minister would get cross-party support and plaudits were he to stand up right now and announce that for this year the fee will be waived. There is an argument that it should not be charged in a country that values the concept of free education.
On SNAs, the Minister mentioned that he is thankful for their contribution to the national effort. I am of the view that SNAs are owed an apology by the Department of Education and Skills for the manner in which their redeployment was mishandled. Yet again, there was a communication to our SNAs, not from the Minister or his Department but from the HSE, to the effect that some of the redeployment work in which they may be engaging will be carried out at HSE premises. There is also a suggestion of a 12-week contract that will continue throughout the summer. What SNAs are wondering and worried about is if they are going to stay in the educational sphere and why it is taking so long for this to be clarified. Hand on heart, I believe the Department would not deal with the teaching body in that way or with any other public servants in that manner. I am quite sure hospital consultants are not being dealt with in that manner.
I appreciate that the Minister referred to rent refunds and the University of Limerick. On speculation regarding primary schools, I accept that what happened is not the fault of the Minister present. However, it is not good enough for another Minister to wonder in a Sunday Independent interview about schools reopening in June because every teacher then begins to wonder what will happen in June. They think that if a Minister is saying this in an interview, there must be something in it. Every teacher then starts to worry about childcare and every parent begins to wonder if he or she can justifiably send his or her child back to school in June. They wonder if this is really happening or if it is just something a Minister said off the top of his or her head. I appreciate these are trying times. Nobody here is trying to score points. We have been doing our best for the last six weeks to back the Minister but we are receiving huge numbers of emails from exasperated parents and students around the country. It is not good enough for a Minister to suggest that the schools will open for one day or for a half a day per week in June.
I want to ask the Minister a direct question about students who received SUSI, VTOS and back to education initiative grants and who are not able to complete their courses.
Could the Minister address that?
Finally, is there a plan B for the leaving certificate? None of us in this House looks at the Minister's situation and feels that any of this is his fault. He was handling the situation and the pandemic arrived. In fairness, as far as the oral examinations and the postponement of the leaving certificate are concerned, he has chosen the best worst option and has got political support on that. No one in the political system has pulled him up on that or scored a point against him on it. There must, however, be much more transparency on this issue because everything that comes out of his mouth is listened to by, as I said, every student and every teacher in the country. It is justifiable criticism that it was on an online forum on Tuesday that he decided to give us the date of 29 July. That date should have been announced in this forum, this House, or in a forum with which everyone in the country is familiar or in which everyone feels able to have some over and back with him on the matter.
I have raised a lot of issues with the Minister but I want him to address the timetable. I want him to refer in his answer to the fee, special needs assistants and the other issues I raised.
I thank the Deputy for raising a number of issues. Let us be very clear on the date. He is correct in what he says about a public forum on Tuesday night. What I said exactly was that the provisional date we were looking at was 29 July and I said I would confirm that in a couple of days. It has been a couple of days, so I confirm in the House tonight that 29 July is the start date. The Deputy asked a really important question about the timetabling and the sequence of timetabling now to try to work through the wider uncertainties which will continue to be there. The first week in June will be the time after the work of the advisory group is completed. Working with the State Examinations Commission, that will be the date on which to let students know in advance of 29 July how the format and the timetable will look then. That is the sequence of events. I take the Deputy's point about the uncertainty and lack of clarity, but that is the world within which we are working and there are so many unknowns as to where we will be. If there are better ways of communicating messages - certainly if there is a better and more efficient way for my Department to communicate to Members of this House - I will ask my officials to do that. However, we must have a complete understanding of how this disruption has affected not only wider society at a general level and the movement of people. Some 1,300 departmental staff members, between Marlborough Street, Athlone and Tullamore, had to change completely their way of working. They are working remotely. They are complying with the social distancing rules and so on. There is a bombardment of issues, whether school meals or SNA redeployment. The world continues to go on within the Department. This is a disruption, but I will certainly take back to the Department the issue the Deputy raised about communicating messages back in a more efficient manner.
The Deputy also talked about the SNAs. I wish to acknowledge the Fórsa trade union. It sat down with officials and worked hard in advance of coming up with this formalised redeployment plan. Within that plan was an aim to ensure that SNAs could formally continue with the work they were already doing. Many SNAs from day one of the school closures continued to engage with their students, be it at primary school or leaving certificate level. Yes, the Deputy is correct that there has been confusion on this matter. As of now, however, there has been engagement and Fórsa and the Department officials have agreed that there will be a training element to this which will involve the HSE. That is just the training element and it may involve some of the training taking place for some of the SNAs in particular HSE buildings or community care settings. This will be remote work for the SNAs, not work in any other capacity that is not within the agreement between Fórsa and my officials.
Schools will not open unless it is safe for them to do so. I said here this evening that I am engaging with my officials on the issue of school fees. We have changed the date for payment to after the examinations but I will continue that conversation. I know the Deputy has raised it publicly with me previously and I am certainly listening here this evening.
I am becoming increasingly worried that the pursuance of the leaving certificate almost at all costs is becoming something akin to the great Dunkirk moment in our response regarding how we demonstrate our resilience or overcome adversity in the face of this pandemic, that we will do it regardless and get through it. With every day and week that passes, that window where we can present a viable alternative seems to be closing. One of the reasons I am growing more concerned about this is that with every phone call I get from a young person in my constituency telling me about his or her anxiety or distress, it seems like it is not going to be possible.
As I understand it and based on how I engaged with it through my previous role working in DEIS schools, the leaving certificate has always been something that illuminates the privileges that exist within society. It has always been a way for people to lock in privilege and ensure that their sons or daughters were able to get the best places in our universities and those who experienced disadvantage had less opportunity to do so. In the current environment, that gap of inequality that already existed is becoming a chasm. We have talked about this in the context of the digital divide, which is very important and to which I will return, but it is not just a digital divide that makes our system and how we judge our young people in terms of whether they are worthy of university. There are a multitude of other divides. I am dealing with students in inner-city Dublin who do not have access to a school table upon which they can do their homework or where they can study. Some of the parents of these children are working in front-line services and supermarkets. It is these same young people who are supposed to be doing their leaving certificate this year who have been asked to step in and provide care work. This is something being faced by these children. That gap of inequality will be exacerbated if we continue as we are.
I want to talk about how it is widening inequality and placing further pressure on students who are already dealing with it. The vast bulk of the two weeks about which we are talking when we bring students back before they do the leaving certificate will be taken up by teachers dealing with mental health support for students. They will be taken up by teachers sitting down with students and having students burst out of their classrooms and expressing the fact that they are not prepared for this. That happens every year and will happen to an even greater degree this year.
I will touch on the digital divide and the announcements made on the last day because I have some questions about them. I am particularly fascinated for a couple of reasons by the €7 million that was announced for secondary schools. Will the Minister confirm whether the €7 million for secondary schools to invest in digital technology was taken from the ICT budget that usually goes to top-ups from the Department to reward schools with good digital strategies? If so, technically, that is not an investment. If it is taken from the previous ICT budget, will that be available to the same extent next year or later on in the year?
Regarding what the €7 million actually looks like on the ground for schools, I am on the board of management of an inner-city school with 160 students. For my school, that works out at about €2,900 in total from the Department. For a similar school up the road that has 750 students, it works out at about €17,000 in total from the Department - €2,900 for my school of 160 students and €17,000 for the school with 750 students. That is fair enough. It is about €20 per student in the school or if schools are to take the advice of the Department and focus on the leaving certificate students, it is about €120 per sixth year student for devices. A circular from the Department stated that schools are left to purchase and distribute their own devices themselves, which I am sure will bring an added cost.
In a circular issued yesterday, the Department suggested that schools buy a HP Mini Tower with a 4k monitor for €979 or a Dell laptop for €1,178. The school of which I am a board member has 160 students and could buy three devices from its allocated funding. The school with 750 students could buy 17 devices. How will that be effective? Reference was made to the digital divide. How will the sum being provided be effective in bridging the digital divide when the need is far greater than the amount being allocated?
I do not wish to highlight only problems. There are solutions. Has the Department considered collaborating on proven initiatives? I previously brought to the attention of the Department a very effective initiative under way between the ESB, Camara Education Ireland and Trinity Access. It has the capacity to deliver devices directly to students on a national network and has sourced devices at one fifth of the cost of the devices suggested by the Department in its circular yesterday. I ask the Minister to address those questions, particularly that relating to leaving certificate students.
Given the level of inequality that exists and the fact that, unfortunately, many international students will not be taking up places in Irish universities this year, has the Minister considered increasing the number of access programme places in universities? If I have time remaining after the Minister replies, I will address the junior certificate. I ask the Minister to deal with the issues I have raised.
The Deputy expanded on a couple of major points, particularly the leaving certificate. He may have entered into dealing with where we need to go with the leaving certificate in the future in terms of the leaving certificate review. I have no doubt he will add to that debate when it arises. There is no doubt that future leaving certificates will have to be different from those in the past because this debate is about the class of 2021 as well as the class of 2020. Those students are losing out on class time with their teachers this year and dealing with uncertainty around the starting time for the new school year in September and how it will impact on them. The current situation has opened up the conversation on alternatives to a two-year leaving certificate course where everything goes down to the wire, such as through more continuous assessment. Unfortunately, we are not at that juncture. Given the current challenges for the leaving certificate, we do not have a standardised system that would lend itself to considering different ways of progressing it. However, we have a system that allows for objectivity, transparency and fairness by virtue of the papers being corrected anonymously. That fairness is central to the leaving certificate. The Deputy raised several issues and I take his point. I have been contacted by many individual students who highlighted the stress they are under and the difficulties they are experiencing. There is a big push from young people for predicted grades, but there are inherent challenges in ensuring that fairness would remain at the heart of the leaving certificate under such a system. For example, what recourse would be available to a student who receives a predicted grade and is left a few points short of achieving a place on a college course?
That brings me to the third element of the Deputy's questions. I will return to the issue of the digital divide. There may be extra places available on third level courses as a result of having fewer international students. As to whether we are looking at providing more access programme places, we are looking at everything. We are considering every scenario, which is why we set up the higher education group within the Department to look at the transition to third level.
On the digital divide, one of the challenges in politics is that the announcements one makes do not always cover everything. As the Deputy correctly pointed out, the €10 million allocation was originally intended for the back-end of the year and was to go to schools of excellence.
I made the decision, therefore, to look at that money, and rather than taking it all from the primary schools, we left €3 million for them. That €7 million is to go specifically to targeted intervention. I know the Deputy's board of management and principal will know exactly where the gaps potentially are and who needs the devices. Many of our students have smartphones and so they have that capacity, but as another Deputy mentioned as well, there is a competition going on in households for usage of devices, with parents working from home as well. There is extra funding for DEIS schools as well. We are also looking at bulk buying and we are looking at companies to see how we can get extra devices such as laptops at a more reasonable price.
A DEIS school of 160 pupils can only buy three devices. That does not seem like it will be enough, does it? More than 90% of students in such a school will need a device. It is just not enough.
It does not appear to be enough but how many of those 160 students are leaving certificate students?
There are 25.
That school will have to work on the basis that some students will have access to the technology but there could be unique situations whereby none of the students have access to it.
That is not ideal.
The Deputy knows the details so maybe the best thing would be for him to send me on the specific details of that school and I would be happy to respond.
I am sharing time with Deputy Barry. My main question centres on the rescheduling of the leaving certificate. As we all understand, that decision will be taken in early June, which is five weeks away. There is a huge amount of uncertainty and a lack of clarity on this issue and there is a huge amount of anxiety among all parties, including teachers, parents and students. The general trend across Europe is quite mixed. In Britain, they have completely cancelled all exams this year. In France, they have cancelled all exams and they have done the same in the Netherlands. Some countries are waiting on the best medical advice. Those approaches should be kept in consideration over the next while. People Before Profit's view is that the leaving certificate should be cancelled and students should be admitted to a college certification scheme where grades would be allocated based on their work throughout the year. Any student that is not satisfied with his or her results should be allowed to sit the exam. The current situation is disadvantageous to students from underprivileged backgrounds because of a lack of access to laptops, Wi-Fi and educational space because most students are at home. That is a key factor. If the situation on 1 June is the same in relation to the recommendations on public health and gatherings of any size, is it the Minister's intention to cancel the leaving certificate and to give clarity on this issue?
I will leave the Minister plenty of time to answer that question. The Minister said earlier in the debate that there has been a collaborative approach but he also said there has been a consensus in the House on the issue of the leaving certificate. That is not correct. There is no consensus in this House on the issue of the leaving certificate. Solidarity, along with People Before Profit, does not agree with the Government's position on the leaving certificate. We think the leaving certificate should be cancelled. I will give the Minister ten reasons the leaving certificate should be cancelled this year. First, the students have not had classes in their schools for weeks upon weeks. What kind of preparation is that? Second, many students are in homes with no devices and others are in homes with a shortage of devices.
Third, many students trying to prepare away from their school are in areas that do not have broadband or its quality is poor. Fourth, students have been denied access to their schools and libraries and have been forced to study at home. Many of those homes are overcrowded, some seriously so, leaving aside the people who are living in direct provision, young Travellers or those who are homeless. Fifth, students prepared for an exam with an idea of where the finish line would be and now it is being extended, not by a couple of days or weeks but by the best part of two months. The sixth reason is anxiety. Exam halls will not be empty or nearly empty. The Minister and the teachers will ensure they are made as safe as is possible but a student who is anxious, sitting on a chair at a desk with a paper in front of them, will feel anxiety about the Covid-19 situation, regardless of how safe the exam hall is made with social distancing.
The next reason is the number of children living in homes where there is the additional stress of a parent or parents being front-line workers. The next is the number of students who will be studying for exams who have gone through the trauma of a family member being hospitalised by Covid-19 in the run-up to the exams. How many will sit the exams who had a family member die as a result of the disease in the run-up to the exams? All these lead to the key, overarching reason which is mental health. Something that I have picked up during this debate is that students and teachers tell us that stress levels are not just increasing a little but are in many cases going through the roof. The Minister told us earlier that the health and well-being of students would be at the heart of any decision he makes. I do not see how he can say that when the vast majority of students are in favour of the cancellation of this year's leaving certificate. That is what we see all around us. I am sure that most years, some students would say they would like the leaving certificate to be cancelled but this time around it is not a small few but a large majority, including many of the most conscientious students who see the mental health pressure on their friends.
I do not see how the Minister can give me or anyone else a real guarantee that the mental health pressures this is putting on young people will not have very serious consequences. We should not take risks with things like this. Since entering this House, I have heard many speeches on the importance of mental health, including for young people. I think it is pious hypocrisy if the Minister drives on regardless with this leaving certificate. I am asked in return what is my alternative. That is often a good question but not always; sometimes something is so much of a mistake in itself it is not necessary to fully answer that question. Where there is a will there is a way. We can learn from other countries. We can give every student the leaving certificate and increase State investment in such a way that there is a place in third level next year for every student who wants it and find various mechanisms to allocate places, whether it is students' first, second or third preference.
Finally, this is about respect.
There may not be time for a reply.
I understand. The greatest way to disrespect any person is to force him or her to do something he or she really does not want to do. That is what the Minister is doing to the majority of the students facing the leaving certificate examinations in the period ahead. Will the Minister cancel them?
The plan we are working on is to have the leaving certificate examinations this year. They have been postponed. I take the points on pressure and anxiety. That is why I stated earlier that central to any decision will be the well-being and health, including mental health, of every single one of the 61,000 young people in this year's leaving certificate class. That is why we are putting the support systems in place.
There is, however, international evidence of different countries doing different things. We are monitoring the different practices. Central to every decision we have made since the pandemic became a massive issue is ensuring we will be guided by public health officials. I am informing myself, be it through direct contact with Dr. Tony Holohan or any other health expert, including, as recently as today, Dr. Mike Ryan from the World Health Organization. I had a 15-minute conversation with Dr. Ryan because I am taking this seriously. I am getting the same emails as the Deputy in respect of the pressure young people are under. However, I am also getting emails and messages from young people who are studying hard, doing the online courses and using technology with innovative teachers who are staying in touch with them. This is different. I do not have time to deal with every point the Deputy made and I do not believe it would be fair to negate every single one of them. Let me deal with the first, however. The Deputy is saying that because leaving certificate students have lost a number of weeks of classroom teaching, we should cancel the leaving certificate examinations. That same argument could be made for the 2021 class. They are also losing out on class time. These are the scenarios we are working on, but central to any decision will be the health and well-being of the students. We will work with the advisory group. It is the advisory group that has to examine the practicalities and health advice and determine whether what is proposed can work. That is what we will work through over the next couple of weeks.
Could the Minister convey his reply to Deputy Gino Kenny, perhaps in writing?
I referred to anxiety. The Deputy raised the issue of cancellations in some countries. He mentioned France and Great Britain. We are also looking at examples of where countries are going ahead with exams, including Germany and South Korea. We are looking at international evidence. We are not in the same position as Britain in the context of how it deals with its GCSEs or A levels. It operates over a longer period. That is resulting in difficulties for it also, as I have learned from my contact with some of my British colleagues.
In a couple of days, we will be making the announcement on the supports, bearing in mind the anxiety, pressure and stress. There is help for every young person who feels under pressure. They should reach out. There is somebody at the other end of the line.
In recent weeks I have been contacted by numerous students and parents about non-reimbursement of fees paid for unused student accommodation. This has been mentioned previously. Universities and large private accommodation operators differ greatly in their approaches to handling student accommodation refunds. It is interesting to note that UCC students are in the fortunate position to have received confirmation that they will receive a pro rata refund of their accommodation fees while students at the University of Limerick and the accommodation of other large providers are, on the other hand, offered no reimbursement. Likewise, some large accommodation providers have also refused to offer a partial refund of fees paid.
Student accommodation providers must refund students who have had to return home because of Covid-19. Students are following the HSE guidelines by returning home. Many of them have lost their jobs. There are families who are temporarily out of work and they cannot be expected to pay for student accommodation that cannot be used. Many students are helping vulnerable family and community members while trying to keep up with their college work online.
This is a very stressful period for everybody. While there are numerous reasons given for refusing to provide the refunds, the fact is that student accommodation is shared and possibly overcrowded with as few as three or as many as seven students sharing making it impossible to be at a social distance and comply with Government advice. Some providers are arguing that students may or were free to stay in the accommodation. Why would they cocoon themselves in student accommodation with six other people and be expected not to return home between March and May when the colleges were shut down? It is also the case that many of these accommodation providers received public supports through tax incentives for sites and other supports and may now be availing of a mortgage break. Many of these providers are not in many instances incurring the running costs associated with the students' presence. The Government needs to call again on all private and public accommodation providers to make refunds to students and return deposits. It needs to give a clear direction to these accommodation providers. Will the Minister tell the forlorn students and their families what actions he and the Government have taken to assist those, in particular those who receive no State grants, to be given a refund?
I am also inundated with queries about future deposits being requested by the end of May 2020 to secure accommodation in advance of the 2020-2021 college year. Parents are very anxious that Covid-19 may result in the leaving certificate not going ahead or that Covid-19 related problems may prevent their student child attending their desired college and the deposit will be non-refundable, causing a great deal of anxiety and stress to parents, many of whom are now unemployed, and to their children. Will the Minister outline what actions, if any, he intends to take to ensure that students' deposits will be refunded.
Year on year Irish students travel to America on the J1 programme. It is a cultural exchange and a unique experience for those who avail of it, making lifelong acquaintances and memories. On 12 March the US State Department announced the temporary suspension of the J1 visa programme until 11 May due to Covid-19, with a review to be conducted every 30 days thereafter. This is compounded by the closure of the US embassy in Dublin. There will be no visa interviews until further notice due to Covid-19. Since this announcement there have been further significant measures taken by the US federal and respective state governments on work and travel restrictions with potential implications for the J1 students obtaining obligatory summer work. Given that thousands of Irish students have secured places and made payments on behalf of their Irish agents also, some of whom are small and medium enterprises seeking to continue in business throughout the pandemic, will the Minister seek clarification from the US embassy on a proposed reopening date and seek clarity from the State Department on the status of the J1 programme? The unfortunate prospect for some is that due to the appointment of a liquidator to the largest J1 agent in Ireland, USIT, which in thousands of cases has acted as travel agent for flights and other services for students, they and their families who have paid for a visa, flights, insurance and other expenses now face the prospect of losing thousands of euros. What actions do the Minister and the Government intend to take to ensure that students are not at any loss as a result of USIT's insolvency?
The Minister has stated that the leaving certificate will go ahead. While the bulk of those concerned are happy for it to go ahead, there are many students and their families who have been affected to varying degrees by the crisis, whether because of poor or no Internet access, a difficult family situation or, worst of all, a bereavement in the family either due to Covid-19 or during Covid-19. All of the aforementioned cause a magnitude of pressure and stress, coupled with the worry for parents that the chosen college, if any, may not be on the cards in the coming autumn mainly because of financial strife. With this in mind I ask the Minister to reconsider the leaving certificate fee and college fees for next year. Student grants are decided on the basis of the previous year's income.
This will in no way reflect the reality of 2020, the Covid-19 year. I am aware of great anxiety among students who have to change CAO applications because of unexpected family financial strife, with parents now unemployed and students unlikely to earn any money to assist them through college. Therefore, providing 2019 financial statements will in many cases preclude access to the SUSI grant. Will the Minister set out what actions the Government intends to take to ensure that students will be able to access college education in the 2020-21 year?
The Minister has three minutes to reply.
If the Minister runs out of time, some of my questions may require written replies, which I would appreciate.
Yes, there were about seven or eight questions asked. We will ensure the Deputy gets a note on each of those important issues.
I will reiterate a message that I have already stated publicly to private operators and accommodation providers - they should consider the difficulties that families are experiencing. If families have paid deposits or advances up to the end of the term, I would ask the providers to do the right thing and pay back that money, to which the students are rightfully entitled. In the first instance, I advise students to engage with their providers. There is a legal mechanism available through the Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019, but the first port of call - the providers paying back the money - would cut out much of the hardship involved. I would ask them to do so.
The University of Limerick is not a private body, but a public one. Our officials are engaging with its officials, who I am publicly asking to reconsider their approach. That should be done.
There is considerable uncertainty and nervousness around the J1 programme. I understand the difficulties that the liquidation of the company that administers the J1 USA visa system will cause for Irish students wishing to go to the United States. I would ask that they register with the liquidator if they have paid deposits. As I understand the matter, that is what should be done to pursue any refund that might be available. Students might also have private insurance that covers this scenario.
On the wider point about travel to the US, its entry requirements are a matter for the US Government. I am aware that my colleague, the Tánaiste and Minister for Foreign Affairs and Trade, and our ambassador in the US are monitoring changes in those requirements. I would also remind students of the public health advice at home in terms of travel and ask that they bear that in mind when making arrangements to travel.
As to the difficulties with the leaving certificate, I would be repeating what I have already said in the Chamber, as we have gone through the matters raised. However, the Deputy also mentioned the leaving certificate fee. I asked my officials to consider the issue and will do so again. I have changed the payment date requirement to after the exams, but I hear the message coming from the Chamber relating to the fee.
A number of other Deputies also raised the question of the SUSI grant and the 2019 assessment. Things are different now - Covid-19 has changed everything, and we are reviewing how to move forward with the SUSI grant.
Next are Deputies Michael Collins and O'Donoghue, who are sharing ten minutes. I ask the Deputies to stick close to their time. I want to try to get every speaker to contribute.
I will raise an issue that has been raised a great deal. Leaving certificate students are concerned by the way in which the exam is being handled. In their opinion, the recent announcement gave little to no clarity. It gave them no date to work towards and told them that practical exams would have to be completed two weeks before their actual exams even while they tried to catch up with what they had missed. It created more questions than it answered. What about subjects like art, where work can only be done in school? What about leaving certification vocational programme, LCVP, exams? The postponement of the leaving certificate extends pressure on everyone and maintains the great anxiety people feel.
Students had planned to get jobs in the summer to earn money to support themselves in college and try to secure accommodation.
Now all of that has been thrown out because the leaving certificate is hanging over them. Even if we take away the fact they will lose the summer and will have to try to teach themselves remotely for the foreseeable future, another major problem will remain, namely, that if the virus has not fully dissipated by July or August, what will they do then? If the exams are run it will increase the risk of infection. In many families there are parents and siblings with underlying conditions and others working on the front line. This means students will have two choices. They can risk infecting their families or risk losing their future. For the sake of the mental and physical health of students, as well as the health of everyone as a whole, the leaving certificate should be cancelled and replaced with a predicted grade system.
Hundreds of students and parents have sent me emails. Will the Minister please indicate where all of the incoming first year university students will find accommodation when they finally receive their college places, given that all of the other year groups will be back before them? There are not enough on-campus accommodation places for everyone. This is another unintended but extremely problematic consequence of the Minister's decision.
One student who emailed me stated that the Minister's decision is not the fairest, while the decisions made in the UK and most other countries are fair to all. The writer states that students should not be the ones to suffer because of the Minister's lack of an alternative. The writer also states that the Minister was presented with a favourable alternative, as voted for by students and teachers. This is to implement a predicted grade system, taking into account the work done over the past two years. If students are unhappy with their grades, they can sit the exam. Everybody would win. The writer sees no reason the Minister has chosen to ignore this option. From the information I have received since the most recent announcements were made, it is obvious that the students of Ireland are looking for the leaving certificate to be cancelled and a predicted grade system to be implemented. Perhaps we could also offer them the alternative whereby if they do not want to take part in a predicted grade system, they could sit the exam, as is proposed now. This would give everyone a fair chance.
Colleges are not offering refunds to students for on-campus accommodation. All colleges have a duty of care to all students during this time. Many students and families have lost their jobs and are under extreme financial pressure. Students should be refunded for accommodation that is not in use. Does the Government intend to make changes to SUSI grant applications for college students who will be commencing their studies in September? Will the Government increase the income threshold for families and thereby enable them to get the full grant?
Will the Minister seriously consider implementing a no detriment policy in third level institutions in order to ensure that no student's academic achievements will be negatively impacted? Will the Minister consider a predicted grade system for the leaving certificate class of 2020, similar to those implemented in many other countries?
I concur with all of the sentiments we have heard from across the House. It is all about the leaving certificate, and rightly so. The point has been raised that not everyone has connectivity through good broadband and Wi-Fi, particularly in rural areas where people are lucky to have phone reception. The children there cannot even participate on Skype or Zoom calls. It has been rightly said that secondary school is not all about the leaving certificate and that it is also about fifth year. Fifth year is as important as sixth year. In the context of practical subjects, most of the work is done in fifth year and the final six months of sixth year involve revision. For many classes, such as art, the students need to be in the school.
Parents who are now off work might be back in work - if it is available to them - when the exams take place. Depending on their job situation, they may have to work. This will cause a problem for them. There has to be a happy medium when it comes to the leaving certificate. As Deputy Michael Collins stated, if people want to sit the leaving certificate, let them do so. If they do not, let them, as has been stated, obtain grades pro rata.
As important as the leaving certificate is when moving from second level to third level, sixth class in national school also marks a massive changeover. Primary school pupils are in one classroom from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m. When they go to second level education, their classes are broken up with different teachers.
It is huge for sixth class children, who have lost out on the integration before starting first year of second level education. We also have to look at what we want to introduce for them in the aftermath of this to allow them to integrate in first year. The move from sixth class to first year will be overwhelming for many, including in regard to mental health, and they will need support. We also need support for fifth year and sixth year students and this need will go into 2021.
I thank both Deputies for raising these important matters. On Deputy Collins's point on clarity around practicals and the leaving certificate vocational programme, LCVP, those issues are being prioritised at the advisory group forum. They were discussed on Friday, there is another meeting tomorrow, and there will be biweekly meetings in the weeks ahead. We need to get more clarity on the practicals. The Deputy is correct that some artwork is still in the schools and there are issues around construction studies, woodwork and on-site practicals. There is a lot of working out to be done but we will get clarity as soon as possible in that regard.
The Deputy asked where we will be in July and August in regard to the risk of infection and the answer is that we do not know. With everything we do in the next period until we find a vaccine, there is going to be a risk. We are going to go into another winter period potentially with no vaccine and we are going to face further risk in terms of this flu potentially still being there. I will leave nothing undone with respect to ensuring we do not put students at risk and we will be working within the public health advice. I am reaching out to everybody involved. I am reaching out to Professor Philip Nolan on NPHET, and as I said earlier, I am reaching out to those like Dr. Mike Ryan. These are the experts in the field in terms of ensuring the health, safety and well-being, not just of students but of staff, support staff, supervisors and all the teams that will be in the school at the end of July and beginning of August.
The Deputy asked about the potential to have predicted grades and to sit exams at the same time. We looked at all the scenarios. Deputies raised the question of whether we are looking at a plan B or at contingencies. We are looking at all contingencies. I am confident that with the people and voices we have around the table, such as parent representative groups, student representative groups, union representative groups, teacher representative groups and all the patron bodies, we will ensure we do not put any student at risk.
The Deputy also mentioned the no-detriment policy for third level. It was announced by the Minister of State with responsibility for higher education on 8 April that further and higher education institutions will not be holding written, oral or practical assessments in examination centres during the Covid-19 emergency. Universities and colleges have finalised alternative assessment arrangements, with options including online exams, written assignments or rescheduling. New assessment arrangements have been communicated to all their students. An important point is that students who are not able to participate in alternative assessment arrangements will not be penalised.
I thank Deputy O'Donoghue for raising various issues and I note his concerns around the postponement of the leaving certificate. It is not an ideal scenario, nor is it the ideal world we would like to find ourselves in. We are working and making decisions with sometimes very limited information in terms of predicting where we will be at in a number of weeks. The most important timeframe is that there will be a further announcement from NPHET in regard to schools on 5 May, and that week from 1 June will be very important in determining how we implement the leaving certificate in July and August.
I take note of the Deputy's point that this is not just impacting on sixth year students and that fifth years are being impacted in terms of their own practical and course work as well as their class time. I note his point that it is a big step up from sixth class of primary school. It is a big transition that can have a big impact. That is something we will be cognisant of in terms of wrapping that support system around students who need it.
I am glad the Deputy raised that point because it has not been raised to date.
At last, I call Deputy Connolly.
Agus an clog ag teannadh linn, déanfaidh mé mo dhícheall a bheith chomh sciobtha agus is féidir. I understand that some issues are complex, such as the leaving certificate, and that there are pluses and minuses involved. In that context, the specific questions in my name and in those of my colleagues, Deputy Pringle and Deputy Joan Collins, are not complex. They are straightforward, practical solutions, and justice comes into it. They have been raised by other Deputies so I will not dwell on them. One relates to the private providers of accommodation to do the right thing and give back the money. Could the Minister give me something stronger than telling them to do the right thing? What actions has he taken? What actions does he intend to take?
Along with that, we have the University of Limerick as an outlier. As I understand it, the latter distinguishes itself by being the only public institution that has not returned the funding. What exactly has the Minister and his Department done in regard to that matter? What contact has the Minister had with the University of Limerick? I understand that a sizeable number of students are affected - 2,800 - but there are also the multiplier effects of that on their families who have lost jobs, lost loved ones and so on. What exactly has happened? What has been the engagement? I note the Minister mentioned engagement but we need firmer action than that, particularly in the context of students going home to families that are suffering. Those questions have been tabled in my name and those of my colleagues.
I have another specific question which I will deal with very quickly and perhaps the Minister can answer it. I welcome the €50 million the Minister referred to in his contribution, although it is difficult to gauge how effective that will be or how it will be used without details. He might return to that in due course.
In the context of a national school in Galway which has come forward, and it is a DEIS school, it pointed out to me the extra expense incurred. It is one thing providing money for technology, which I welcome, but one must also realise that technology is only part of the help that is needed. We need human help. We need practical help on the ground. The school in question is incurring expense every week as a result of posting out packages, which has to be done for children who are participating in particular programmes and children with special needs. It has asked specifically if an arrangement can be made with An Post. Presumably, the question is also whether the money the Department is making available can be used for that extra expense that schools are incurring.
In the last couple of minutes available, because I want to leave time for the Minister to answer, I wish to raise the other main concern which is the foreign language students who have been left stranded, primarily in Dublin but also throughout the country. I believe the Minister is in receipt of correspondence. If he is not, various Ministers are in receipt of such correspondence in respect of this matter. Dublin has the highest percentage of these students but they are also in Galway, Cork and Limerick. I understand that at least 1,000 students are left stranded and living in dangerously overcrowded accommodation. They have lost whatever part-time jobs they had. There are major risks to their health and to the health of other people. Our former colleague, Clare Daly, who was a Deputy but who is now an MEP, has written to many Departments over a number of weeks trying to draw attention to this issue and get some response. The teacher who has gone to the trouble of pointing out the extent of the problem in Dublin and in other countries has been very helpful. They have highlighted that there is a problem with accommodation, financial security, PPS numbers and other documentation but the biggest problem is that these students have been left stranded without anybody mentioning them. It is unfortunate that nobody mentioned them today in the Dáil either. I will leave the Minister time to answer the questions and I might get a chance to come back in depending on how quickly he responds.
Regarding private providers, all I will do today is appeal to them to use their judgment and do the right thing in regard to paying back money that is owed to these third level students.
In the first instance, I ask the students to engage with the provider. The Residential Tenancies (Amendment) Act 2019 provides for recourse as well. It is difficult, and there is no excuse for that not happening. I make that appeal once again.
The Deputy asked about engagement with the University of Limerick. The Secretary General of the Department has been engaging directly with the president of the University of Limerick. I and the Department appeal to the university to join with the other third level colleges regarding the decisions they made.
As regards the €50 million ICT announcement, primary and secondary schools were expecting the €40 million announcement for this time of year. In fact, it should have been a number of weeks earlier but with all that is going on in the Department it has been announced at a later date. I have decided with regard to the €10 million, which was usually announced at the end of the year for school excellence funding for the use of technology, that €7 million of that is to be used by post-primary schools that have specific data and information on hard-to-reach students or students who might need a laptop or to use it in an autonomous way as they see fit. It is a fund of €7 million and they have complete autonomy with it. Deputy Gannon is a member of a board of management and was raising this earlier in terms of whether it would go far enough. It may not go far enough in some schools but the schools have the autonomy to use the money as they see fit. The Deputy also raised the matter of human health. We are working closely with our colleagues in the Department of Health to ensure that we continue to use the mental health supports to deal with the stress and anxiety of students. There will be an announcement on that in a couple of days.
The fund, unfortunately, will not be used for a contribution towards funding for postage. Schools are using resources in different ways now, with much communication to families and potentially harder to reach families who may not have proper broadband facilities. They are sending material out. There is capitation funding that can be used at the schools' discretion in that regard.
International English language students is an issue that has been raised a number of times. Fiachra Ó Luain in Carndonagh has contacted me indirectly through a colleague of mine in Culdaff and raised this issue. We have been engaging with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government and the Department of Health to provide whatever support we can in this regard. It is a difficult one because some international students who were in temporary employment or had a temporary employment contract get the payment, but the students who did not have an employment contract or were being paid in cash are not included in the Covid-19 payment. As English is not the first language of students in this sector and as a number would not consume the same media as domestic students, we must ensure the information and messaging on the latest health advice reaches these students. The Department of Justice and Equality has undertaken a range of measures to ensure the students do not have to worry about their immigration status during this crisis and through engagement with the Department of Employment Affairs and Social Protection students have been informed that where they have lost their job as a result of the pandemic, they are eligible for payment. They have also been informed that their employers can avail of the temporary Covid-19 wage subsidy scheme which enables employees whose employers are affected by the pandemic to receive significant supports directly from their employer.
Will a task force be set up in respect of this substantial number of people so somebody will direct the actions in that regard?
The public gets frightened when we mention a task force, and sometimes it is set up to not do work. There has been very strong engagement between the Departments. For example, the Department is also engaging with the Department of Housing, Planning and Local Government. The HSE is putting facilities in place to allow for the isolation of individuals if they are required to self-isolate.
Nobody will be left out. I assure Deputy Connolly that I will have one of my officials make direct contact with the Deputy to update her on the work that is being done and if there are any gaps we will get back to the Deputy.
I thank the Minister.
A provision was made earlier to applaud the front-line workers and all involved in the struggle against the virus.
Members rose and applauded.
I thank Members. It was a well-deserved round of applause for those whom it was intended and for all those involved in the struggle against the virus.
Members can continue with questions and the Minister has the option of a five minute reply.
I have said to the Deputy that I will have one of the officials contact her directly to link in and to update on what has been done. There has been quite a considerable amount of work done at an interdepartmental level. If there are other gaps that we can help to work on then we would be happy to do that.
Does the Minister require a further five minute reply?
No. It was just as I have said. I thank Deputy Connolly.
That concludes statements and questions and answers on Covid-19.
The Dáil adjourned at 8.02 p.m. until 12 noon on Thursday, 30 April 2020.