Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 10 Feb 2022

Vol. 1017 No. 7

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Disadvantaged Status

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

My question is in regard to DEIS status for Scoil Mhuire Lourdes, which is a girls' school in Tullow, County Carlow, its application for additional accommodation to expand facilities to support its learning, the reason it does not have an autism spectrum disorder, ASD, class and what measures are proposed to rectify this problem.

I had a meeting recently with the principal of this school. It does not have DEIS status but there is an urgent need for it to be given that status. I would welcome some feedback from the Minister of State, Deputy Madigan, in regard to how the school should go about securing it. I am not sure if the Minister of State is familiar with the Tullow area. It is an area of high deprivation. It is important that consideration be given to this school being awarded DEIS status.

In regard to the ASD class, I was surprised to learn this school wants to have an ASD class. It should be commended on that, but its application in that regard has not been granted, apparently because it is deemed not to be a need in the area. There very much is a need in the area for an ASD class. I will give some details in regard to the school. There are children within the school from families where one or two of the parents are unemployed, and 33% of the families are headed up by lone parents. As we know, there are issues of poverty within lone parent families. It is important to emphasise this is an all-girls school. Some 35% of the families are being supported by the school completion programme, which is an excellent programme and one I regularly try to speak about in this House. There is a high level of need within this school.

The principal is an excellent advocate for the school. She has been pushing hard for all of this and she is really passionate about it. In regard to the ASD class, in one family where there is a lone parent, one child is attending this school but the other child needs to go to an ASD class and will have to travel outside of Tullow to access it. During a meeting we had with that lone parent, she made the point that, in terms of climate, the green agenda and people changing their ways in regard to transport, it makes no sense for her child to have to travel by bus to another school because the facilities are not in place in this school to accommodate her child. It is important we get this right.

The condition of the school is an issue. DEIS status is also an issue.

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank the Deputy for her question. I am taking this question on behalf of the Minister for Education, Deputy Foley. My understanding is that more than 800 schools in this country already have DEIS status. As the Deputy knows, the entire DEIS model is under review at present. Funding was almost doubled to €32 million in the budget from the €18 million available last year. That is on top of the €150 million that was given to the Department to make sure there are supports for the DEIS programme. It is important we look after all children going to school, but disadvantaged children in particular as well as children with additional needs, who fall under my remit.

I am aware Scoil Mhuire Lourdes girls' school has applied for DEIS status and I also understand the technical aspects of the refinement of the identification model is being looked at. A lot of consultation is ongoing with our education partners, national representative bodies and unions. It is important to note that schools are not required to apply for inclusion in the DEIS programme because all schools will automatically be considered under the refined model when it is applied.

The Deputy also asked about additional accommodation. I am aware there has been an application from that school for additional accommodation under the additional school accommodation, ASA, scheme. From listening to the Deputy's comments, I imagine that is probably because they are looking for a special class. I know there are approximately 40 special classes in the general area of Carlow. In fact, one of those is a new class that opened just this year. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, is telling me that, at present, there is sufficient capacity to cater for all children with additional needs. I agree with the Deputy's comments about commending Scoil Mhuire Lourdes girls' school for wanting to open a special class in the first instance. It is not always the case, and I am always grateful and welcoming to schools that take the initiative, want to take an inclusive approach to education and have that culture and ethos within the school to welcome all children with additional needs. I know the application that has been put in to modernise and consider new accommodation is being assessed. On completion of that assessment process, the school authority will, of course, be contacted directly with a decision.

There is also the minor works grant, which is payable to all primary schools. It gives schools flexibility in making improvements to the physical infrastructure of school buildings. There are also enhanced capitation grants that are given to schools, particularly where they open a special class. Some schools even open two special classes. They are given grants of €6,500 and €7,000 for furniture and ICT, respectively. That is important.

The Deputy mentioned transport in particular. Education is a right for all children, including those with additional needs. It is not always possible to provide that education in their own locality, but certainly the NCSE and the Department endeavour to do so.

On school transport, I know there is now an onus on the public sector to provide electric vehicles, so many of the buses will be carbon-free over the next period of time. There are targets for the green agenda the Deputy mentioned.

Deputy Kathleen Funchion

I welcome what the Minister of State has said about additional funding for the DEIS scheme. That is welcome. However, it is frustrating for a school that still falls outside the scheme, especially when it relies so much on programmes such as the school completion programme and various other programmes. I am glad the Minister of State acknowledged the school in question is working to try to be inclusive. I agree that is what we want our schools to be. If we are being honest, not all schools take that approach and Scoil Mhuire Lourdes girls' school should be commended on that. I am glad the Minister of State mentioned that.

Could we get some information from the NCSE? It says it feels there is an adequate level of special classes in the area but Scoil Mhuire Lourdes girls' school would very much argue against that. It would point to growing demand in the area.

Some people might have a difficulty with the following but it is a point I wish to make. This is an all-girls school. We have recently had many discussions in the Chamber about gender and sending out the right message. We have very young girls, from junior infants up to sixth class, being taught in substandard accommodation and not getting the supports they should. We are failing in that regard. There is an argument for Scoil Mhuire Lourdes girls' school to get DEIS status. If there are any updates on the review, they could be provided to the school. I appreciate the Minister of State will not have it now but could we get some information from the NCSE as to the rationale behind its decision? I would think that is open to argument.

The reason I mentioned climate change is that the argument the school is making is that it is right there on the doorstep of the Tullow community and it would save people travelling if the school had an autism spectrum disorder class.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

All schools that did so last year will automatically provide special educational needs facilities, which will be important going forward. That is just a general point around the provision of placements for children with additional needs.

I again commend Scoil Mhuire Lourdes girls' school on volunteering to open a special class and, as I said, there are enhanced capitation rates for that. I do, however, understand from the NCSE that at present there is sufficient capacity for these children in other schools. I do accept the point the Deputy is making that it is often in the best interests of children to attend a school in their own locality, and we should endeavour to facilitate that where possible. This particular school has already put in an application for extra accommodation and no doubt that will be taken into account when the matter is looked at.

The criteria for the new DEIS identification model is being worked out at present. We will obviously look at socioeconomic factors and the fact it is an all-girls school. I heard what the Deputy said about there being a lot of lone parents in the area and the many other challenges they endure daily. All of that will be taken into account. As I said, there are already 800 or more schools in the country with DEIS status but every school will be up for review again. As I said, the school does not need to apply and the situation will be looked at. That the Deputy has brought it up as a Topical Issue matter will be brought to the attention of the Department. It is aware the Deputy has raised the question and that will hone their minds on the matter. If I have any further information from the NCSE, I will let the Deputy know but that is the status at the moment. I hope the application will be successful.

Departmental Schemes

Deputy Dessie Ellis

As the Minister knows, thousands of homes throughout the country are in urgent need of proper insulation to bring them up to an acceptable energy rating standard. Dublin City Council has been involved in an extensive programme to retrofit its housing stock and bring those homes to a reasonable energy rating. This has entailed insulating attics, fitting heat pumps, doing wrap-around insulation or pumping insulation into walls, and changing windows and doors where necessary. This has proved to be very successful, particularly as many of the houses that needed urgent retrofitting date back as far as the 1950s.

The construction of some houses using precast concrete slabs, as is found in housing estates in Finglas south, has caused serious dampness and mould. This has health implications for the residents and large energy costs because of the gaps caused by the deterioration of the sealant used on the joints of the slabs. The external wrap-around insulation has eliminated much of these issues by sealing these gaps. Solid walls require the wraparounds while other types of walls, such as double leaf, are pumped.

There is less of an incentive for those in private dwellings to retrofit their homes, however, because they have to pay a substantial amount of the cost of such retrofitting. The Government's plans to increase grant funding for such works from 30% to 35% at present up to 50%, as outlined in the recently launched national retrofit plan, will not incentivise those who are on low pay.

The issue that really concerns me is that under existing rules, the Sustainable Energy Authority of Ireland, SEAI, allows for only one visit to the residence for works to be carried out regardless of how minor these works might have been. I am aware of quite a number of cases across the constituency of Dublin North-West in Ballymun, Finglas, Whitehall, Santry, Glasnevin and so on. In many instances, only minor works were carried out and residents were refused a return visit. I have dealt with examples of such cases whereby works to add insulation were carried out ten or more years ago and anyone today who had such minor works done is being refused further works.

I am currently dealing with a particular case that illustrates the absurdity of the current rules when applying for retrofitting works to be carried out in a residence. This is one example of many and concerns an elderly gentleman living alone in Whitehall who is on a pension and receives fuel allowance. He had his attic insulated ten years ago. He is currently in rehabilitation in hospital but will be returning home in the near future. His house dates back to the 1950s and would require wraparound insulation and an upgrade to the heating system, among other measures, to bring it up to an acceptable energy standard. His request for works to be done has been repeatedly refused because the SEAI is adhering to the Department's rule that it carries out one visit per home. This senior citizen will return to a cold home and high energy costs he can ill afford as he tries to heat his house. It has been promised since 2017 that this rule would be reviewed but to date there has been no movement on this issue. I urge the Minister of State to ensure that this matter is resolved and included in the Government's national retrofitting programme.

Minister of State at the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications (Deputy Ossian Smyth)

I thank the Deputy very much for raising this issue. As he will know, I care very much about it. I am particularly interested to make sure the retrofitting money is targeted towards those who need it most. I want to give the Deputy an update today on Government action on the better energy warmer homes scheme.

The programme for Government and climate action plan set ambitious targets to retrofit 500,000 homes to a building energy rating of B2 and install 400,000 heat pumps in existing buildings over the next ten years. These targets represent a very significant increase in both the volume and depth of retrofit activity in Ireland. The recently published national retrofit plan sets out how we will achieve these targets and identifies an unprecedented €8 billion to support homeowners to retrofit their homes to 2030. It includes a range of measures aimed at supporting those least able to afford to retrofit. This week, the Minister, Deputy Eamon Ryan, also announced further improvements to the supports available to homeowners to retrofit their homes in line with the commitments in the national retrofit plan.

The better energy warmer homes scheme delivers free energy upgrades to eligible homeowners in low-income households who are vulnerable to energy poverty. It is administered by the SEAI. Since the start of the scheme in 2000, more than 143,000 free upgrades have been supported. In 2021, the average cost of the energy-efficiency measures provided per household was €17,100. A budget allocation of €109 million has been provided for the scheme this year. This will support an increase in the number of free home upgrades from an average of 177 per month in 2021 to 400 per month this year, helping to reduce waiting times.

The Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications has committed to reviewing the qualifying criteria for the scheme, including the rule that only allows for one visit to homeowners. I am delighted to tell the Deputy that several revisions to the scheme were made this week to better target those in need. One of these changes means that for the first time, applications will be accepted from qualifying homeowners who previously received supports under the scheme but could still benefit from even deeper measures. This means applicants will now be able to have a second visit under the scheme.

The scheme will target the worst performing properties by prioritising homes that were built and occupied before 1993 and those with a BER rating of E, F or G. Existing applications will not be affected by this change, however. The scheme eligibility criteria will also be extended to include those in receipt of disability allowance for more than six months and who have a child aged under seven years. The scheme is now open to applicants in receipt of the following welfare payments: fuel allowance; those receiving jobseeker's allowance for more than six months and with a child aged under seven; working family payment; one-parent family payment; domiciliary care allowance; carer's allowance where someone lives with the person he or she is caring for; and those receiving disability allowance for more than six months and with a child aged under seven. The eligibility criteria are kept under ongoing review within the Department of Social Protection to ensure they are consistent with and complementary to the other income support schemes offered by that Department.

There are currently just over 7,000 homes awaiting works under the better energy warmer homes scheme programme. These include homes that are awaiting the initial survey of their home, those that have completed an initial home survey and are awaiting allocation to a contractor, those that have been allocated to a contractor for works and those that are currently undergoing works.

Activity under this scheme and the associated expenditure were significantly impacted in both 2020 and 2021 by the Covid-19 pandemic when construction activity paused for approximately 12 months in total in line with Government guidelines. Activity ramped up again towards the end of the year, however, and there is confidence around the capacity to deliver 400 homes per month under the scheme this year. Works under the scheme have restarted in line with activity in the residential construction sector.

SEAI data indicate that for homes completed to date, in 2021, the average time from application to completion was 26 months, taking into account the increase in waiting times due to the impact of Covid-19. For the same period, the average time for a surveyor to be allocated was approximately 18 months. A research network on fuel poverty, chaired by the Economic and Social Research Institute, has been established to examine the data and metrics needed to improve existing measures for fuel poverty in Ireland. The group consists of representatives from the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications, the Department of Social Protection, the SEAI and the Central Statistics Office. The details I have outlined demonstrate the Government's significant commitments to supporting those at risk from energy poverty.

Deputy Dessie Ellis

I thank the Minister of State very much. I must say that this scheme is very important and has been very successful. Dublin City Council has done a marvellous job in bringing it forward. More funding is obviously needed to enhance the scheme. I was glad to hear the Minister of State say that we will get a second visit. This has been a terrible bone of contention for many people, some of whom are very old people on pensions and some of whom are living in terrible conditions. I have been repeatedly refused - I do not know how many times - and it is very frustrating. I am glad this change is being made and I am waiting to see what that entails when the forms come out. I am not sure whether it will be linked to any sort of time or anything like that. I would not like to think we would link it and make it difficult for people. I hope we will revisit people who had works carried out less than ten years ago as well. That is very important.

It is a fact that where Dublin City Council has done many of the wraparounds, small private dwellings in between have been left behind. I would like to see better co-ordination between the SEAI and the local authority that is doing these wraparounds. I have seen now in different areas where two or three houses have had a wraparound and one house beside them has been left behind because it was bought off the council or is a private dwelling. That is something on which we need to see better co-ordination.

Many senior citizens will be glad to hear the Minister of State say we will get a revisit. I certainly look forward to talking to a few of them and assuring them that this will be done. This has huge impacts on the environment and also on the finances of ordinary people. It has massive benefits. I thank the Minister of State for taking this issue.

Deputy Ossian Smyth

I am glad the Deputy welcomes this action. There are number of teams in operation and it is confusing but the SEAI can explain it. The local authorities are carrying out their own direct upgrades on their own tenants. They have €85 million for that this year which, as the Deputy said, is an enormous sum of money. Every local authority in Ireland has been allocated extra staff in order that they have the capacity to actually do the work, which was a fear.

Under the better energy warmer homes scheme, which we are talking about, money is provided to people who are homeowners but on very low incomes. They are often people who bought out their local authority homes. The last category comprises people who are not in either of those categories and who are getting this grant, which can be as little as €500 but up to €25,000.

On the SEAI and local authorities co-ordinating their response, I believe the Deputy is talking about where it would make more sense to do four houses in a block, particularly in a local authority area, rather than doing one and having it stand out from the others.

I will take the Deputy's advice to the SEAI when I next meet with that body. It has a sustainable energy communities initiative whereby it sits down with people on a particular street to discuss how all their homes can be done together in a way that brings everybody on board. There is some negotiation to be done in such cases because not everybody may be ready for the disruption involved in their home. I will discuss the Deputy's point with the SEAI. We are doing a large number of homes through those schemes. My expectation is that 27,000 homes will be completed, not counting the 2,500 direct builds that will be done by local authorities.

Up to 2018, the warmer homes scheme focused primarily on delivering shallow measures such as attic and cavity wall insulation. Many of the people the Deputy is talking about perhaps had a small job done and they now need to go further than that. He mentioned something that is very important, namely, indoor air quality and situations where condensation is coming down walls and leading to mould. There is a very high incidence rate of black mould in Irish households, which leads to a much higher incidence of asthma here than is the case across the European population. This measure is not just about energy, climate change and keeping people warm in their homes and bringing down their bills. It is also about improving their health, including their lung health.

Transfer of Undertakings

Deputy Joan Collins

I raise the issue of Tesco's disgraceful treatment of its workers. On Tuesday morning, well over 100 retail security officers were called into their individual stores at 9 a.m. to be told their contracts were being unilaterally passed, that is, outsourced to a security company, OCS, which works for Tesco, within six to eight weeks. There was no engagement with the workers prior to their being called in and no engagement with their unions. The workers, some of whom have been employed by Tesco for more than 20 years, have six to eight weeks to choose between redundancy or being outsourced. Having given loyal service to Tesco, including working through two years of the pandemic, while most people were staying at home, to make sure society could eat and function, and putting their health and lives at risk in doing so, these workers should be treated as heroes and be getting pay increases and pandemic bonuses. They should not be treated like this, potentially facing an insecure future in which their terms and conditions of work are very likely to be undermined over time. We do not know whether OCS may lose its contract with Tesco in the future.

Tesco has form for treating its workers badly. The Minister of State may remember that, back in 2017, 250 of its employees were told to accept worse terms and conditions or leave. Tesco brought in a plan called "project black", drawn up by a union-busting firm, to undermine the pay and conditions of its workers and the trade union, Mandate, thereby forcing workers to go on strike. There was no need to attack those workers then and there is no need to outsource these workers now. Tesco has never justified changes of employment for its workers. It is one of the most profitable retailers in Ireland. In the first half of 2016, the Tesco group registered profits of €584 million. In 2015, the CEO was paid £4.6 million, including a £3 million bonus. The company has referred in the past to the Republic of Ireland as "Treasure Island". Two weeks ago, an article in one of the Sundays newspapers headlined "A happy Christmas for Tesco" stated that Tesco Ireland had raised its profit outlook for the second time in four months. A rise in Christmastime sales was reported, as well as a 0.2% sales increase in the quarter ending 27 November 2021. End of year results for the 2021-22 retail year are slightly above the company's €2.5 billion to €2.6 billion projection.

The race to the bottom that is the relentless campaign by some companies and multinationals to increase profits must stop. Does the Minister of State agree that Tesco should immediately withdraw this approach and its attempt to outsource jobs?

Minister of State at the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (Deputy Damien English)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter. As I am not familiar with the particular situation to which she referred, I will comment generally on the overall situation when companies are taken over or there is a transfer of undertakings. I do not have the details of the case she raised but I certainly will get them and look into the situation. I was not aware of the company to which the Deputy was referring until she mentioned it just now.

The European Communities (Protection of Employees on Transfer of Undertakings) Regulations 2003 , often referred to as the TUPE regulations, may apply to any transfer of an undertaking, business or part of a business from one employer to another as a result of a legal transfer, including the assignment or forfeiture of a lease, or merger. I am not sure what the circumstances are in this particular case because I did not have the information the Deputy does. As I said, I will keep my answer general. In such situations, employees, in general, are protected and have rights under these regulations, which deal with the transfer of those rights to a new employer. The regulations safeguard employees' rights in situations where a transfer falls within the definition contained in the regulations. They provide that all the rights and obligations of an employer under a contract of employment, including terms inserted by collective agreements, other than pension rights, are transferred to the new employer on the transfer of the business or part thereof. The new employer must continue to observe the terms and conditions of any collective agreements until they expire or are replaced. Furthermore, an employee may not be dismissed by reason of the transfer alone. However, dismissals may take place for economic, technical or organisational reasons involving changes in the workforce.

Both the outgoing and incoming employers are obliged to inform their respective employees' representatives of, inter alia, the reasons for the transfer and the legal, social and economic implications of that transfer. Where there are no representatives, the employers must arrange for the employees to choose representatives for this purpose. The Deputy mentioned a particular union and I assume that union will be involved in this case. If not, employees should come together and appoint someone to be their representative. The affected employees must be given the above information not later than 30 days before or, in any event, in good time before, the transfer, or, in the case of the transferee, before its employees will be affected by the transfer. The Deputy referred to a period of six or seven weeks. In all these situations, there should be good communication between all parties in order that everyone knows what is going on. There should be no surprises, which is a comment I would make in general concerning the relationship between employer and employees in any business.

Where an employee considers that a breach of the regulations has occurred, a complaint may be made to an adjudication officer of the Workplace Relations Commission, WRC, and appeals therefrom to the Labour Court. Regarding the case the Deputy outlined, I would rather see companies engaging with employees in these situations to work things out. I presume there is time for that to be done and I hope the employees engage with their unions and work through this in a sensible way. They have protections under Irish law. I am happy to engage further with the Deputy on the matter.

Deputy Joan Collins

I thank the Minister of State for his reply. I am aware of the regulations regarding transfers of undertakings and have assisted workers to get their rights under that process. It is inevitable in many cases that workers with good jobs that are permanent and secure, on which they base the securing of their mortgage or the payment of their rent and so on, may lose out if they are moved to new companies. In the case of the bin collection workers, for example, who were local authority workers before moving to Greyhound in a transfer of undertakings, they were, in a matter of years, kicked out of their jobs. The company brought in other workers and locked them out because they wanted to ensure their wages stayed as they were but the employer did not want to pay that wage. That was the bottom line.

The more than 100 hundred workers in Tesco are potentially facing the same situation. The company did not even bother to meet with the unions and workers before making its decision. Instead, they were brought in individually, which is a very underhand way to intimidate workers. As a society, we should be dealing with these multinational companies, which are very profitable and have no need to outsource their workers like this. We should be looking at protecting full-time employment and security for workers. We have been in a race to the bottom, which is moving workers towards part-time, insecure work. These workers are in full-time employment.

The Minister of State said he did not know my question related to the situation at Tesco. However, the question I put in referred to the fact that up to 180 retail security officers, many with long-term service, were told on Tuesday morning that Tesco is acting unilaterally to outsource their employment. The company was named in the question I submitted. We do not do enough to ensure our employment laws protect workers in these situations. I ask the Minister of State to respond to that point.

Deputy Damien English

I disagree with the Deputy on that. There are quite a lot of protections under our employment laws and we expect any company, no matter what it is, to work within those laws. I gave commitments in regard to other situations last year, including that of the Debenhams workers, that we would look to see whether we can strengthen the laws in any situation where a company is being sold or bought out or where redundancies arise.

We are working on that. However, it is untrue to say that workers are not protected. Many people choose to work in Ireland because they feel they are protected. The laws are clear and are black and white.

In this situation that the Deputy outlines, on which I do not have any information, there are protections in place to protect them. It is not true to say that it is inevitable that this will go south or that it will go wrong. That is not true. I am familiar with many situations which have worked extremely well. Of course, I am familiar with other cases where it did not. However, it is wrong to always portray in here that doom and gloom is always inevitable. I do not know the situations and I will not comment on this case, but protections are there. I would imagine, as the Deputy has referenced, that a union is involved here. I would therefore presume that negotiations will be under way for the next number of weeks. I hope that those employees take advice, guidance and check out all the rules and regulations that are there to protect them.

We are proud of our labour laws in this country. We have the Workplace Relations Commission, we have the Labour Court and other areas where we can monitor those restrictions-----

Deputy Joan Collins

Employees do not-----

Deputy Damien English

-----in general, I agree with the Deputy that all of those who are involved in the retail sector and the security sector right throughout Covid-19 stood up and provided a top-class service to this country. They were on the front line as much as anybody else. In most cases that I have seen, that has been properly recognised by their employers. I hope that that would be the case as well.

I speak in general here, because I chair the retail forum and I discuss much of this with the retail sector on a regular basis. I always talk about the importance of looking after staff regarding training, upskilling and better conditions.

The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise, Trade and Employment, Deputy Varadkar, is clear on this. We are strengthening the conditions for general workers in this country regarding the minimum wage, aspirations to a living wage, sick pay legislation and in other areas, including the extra bank holiday. This is because we are about strengthening the conditions, about making sure that work always pays and about trying to improve that every time we go along. It is therefore not a case that Ireland is behind on employment laws, because we are not.

Work Permits

Deputy Barry Cowen

The skills shortage across many sectors has been exacerbated by the pandemic. While many businesses thankfully survived that terrible vista, in no small way due to the financial supports from the Government, such as the wage subsidy schemes, the CRSS, waiving of rates, warehousing of tax returns etc., the re-opening presents its own challenges. Not least of these is the impact of energy and fuel costs, but there is a further and serious issue of skills shortage and unavailability of work, both at home and, it would appear, in Europe.

This is a growing phenomenon, which has been exacerbated by delays in the processing, adjudicating and awarding of permits for workers, especially of those who are from outside the EU. This is a case that is manifesting itself throughout the country and in my own constituency and many others in recent weeks. It is against that backdrop that I wanted to read into the record two such representations. The first is from an engineering company which is based in Tullamore. It states:

We currently have over €15 million worth of work ahead of us at present, all for export to the UK. We are in serious need of fitter fabricators, turners and mechanical design engineers. We have explored every avenue possible regarding advertising and recruitment agencies and cannot get the staff we require. As you are aware, Barry, last year we had to recruit from outside the EU, which is a massive task and expense, but we had no option. Going to all that effort and expense is one thing, but the extremely slow process of work permits and visas, even though we have a trusted partner status, is crazy. The timeframe between work permit application and approval and then visa application is 20 to 22 weeks. That is with all going according to plan. We used a company last year to recruit eight men from Vietnam. We paid €8,000 to apply for eight work permits. After nearly five months of waiting they were approved, but these men fell through, due to long wait for the permit. We lost our €8,000. At this point, our situation is critical. We have now employed the services of another recruitment company. They have an expert in the field of recruitment from the Philippines. We are currently going to try and take on ten fitter fabricators, at a cost of €6,000 per person to recruit. However, again, the issue with the processing of work permits is going to delay us hugely. We need these workers urgently, Barry, and we cannot afford to be let down again.

A haulage company contacted me. It stated:

Like every transport and logistics company in Ireland, we have been operating during Covid-19 to keep open the supply chain links that are vitally necessary of course for the economic and social wellbeing of this country. As you are aware, there is a crisis in our industry regarding the recruitment and retention of heavy goods vehicle drivers. You have seen what happened in the UK, with shops shelves empty and panic buying at the forecourts. We as an island nation that is predominantly rural are totally dependent on road haulage, because the only viable means of transport of waterways and rail are not viable or realistic options. In this regard, we are at the coalface, collecting milk off-farm in the midlands and delivering animal feedstuff and fertilisers to farms, also in the midlands. Without this service, the agricultural sector would grind to a halt. Already, there is a real risk of milk not being collected off farms in 2022. This, of course, would have a catastrophic impact on both farm and agri-processing industry. To address this dilemma, this haulage company has commenced the recruitment process of South African drivers. However, the process of obtaining work permits has dramatically slowed. It is in this regard, Barry, that we need your assistance urgently. We need these workers immediately, as we are now commencing a substantial 2022 milk collection season with Glanbia.

That is a just a flavour of what I am sure is also being relayed to the Minister of State by many other Deputies throughout the country. I felt it necessary to read them into the record, in order to show it from the perspective of my own constituency. While it is predominately rural, it is also dependent on acquiring a workforce from beyond Europe. While the free movement of work and services within Europe was a welcome delivery from the EU over many years as a placement for a workforce, it has now dried up. It is essential that we enter into agreements with other third countries that are outside Europe, some of which I have mentioned and many others of which I am sure the Minister of State is aware. The Minister of State might update us on the efforts that his Department is making to address this issue so that we can confidently express our commitment to our constituents and to those companies that they may have an option in the near future.

Deputy Damien English

I thank Deputy Cowen for raising this issue, as well as for putting forward those two cases, which are familiar stories about the system, on the floor of the House. I am happy to take him through what we are doing to address this, as well as to give him some context on it.

At the start, however, I want to say that I totally agree with the Deputy that this is not an acceptable timeframe. I will not stand over it, our Department is not happy with it, and neither is the Tánaiste. The Taoiseach has addressed it here as well. We have plans in place to address this, and we have a target to bring these timelines right back down. However, they are a victim of Covid-19. They are also a victim of the recovery phase that we are in as we come out of Covid-19, as well as of the demand for these permits. While we are not happy with the timelines, I will explain to the Deputy what is behind them, and what we are doing to correct them.

We hope to very soon, in the weeks ahead, be able to bring the timelines back down. A plan of action is in place to keep them down, when we get to that stage. The Deputy addressed the overall issue, apart from the permits, of a skills shortage, and he is right. Thanks to all of the supports, which the Deputy referenced, from the Government over the last two years, we are in a position to have a jobs-led recovery. However, that brings pressure on the system and a demand for skills and labour, which seems to be unable to be met from traditional sources within Ireland and across Europe for many sectors. We have to respond to that in a combination of ways which include the permit scheme, but also through upskilling, education systems, further education and training, and engaging with the Department of Social Protection's Pathways to Work document, which is to assist employers and employees.

I would ask that all of those sectors would engage with my Department and me, as well as with the Department of Education and with the Department of Social Protection, as we work together to resolve these issues into the long term. This is because while permits can be seen as the solution in the short term, they should not be seen as the long-term fix. I am happy to engage with Deputy Cowen and his colleagues on this issue.

To set the context, my Department and the employment permit system did continue to operate from the onset of the pandemic. My Department implemented a Covid-19 contingency plan in March 2020, moving the employment permit operations seamlessly to a totally remote working environment and to accept all documents from applicants electronically. The Department moved quite fast to do that. Ireland was one of the few countries that has managed to keep its employment permit system fully operational throughout the crisis. My Department made an agreement with immigration service delivery in the Department of Justice as a temporary measure, to take soft-copy arrangements for issuing employment permits.

From the outset of the crisis, in order to assist the HSE and all other medical providers in the State to respond to and to assist with the public health response to the threat of Covid-19, all doctors’ and nurses’ employment permit applications were expedited. This is still ongoing and over 4,000 of those permits were issued in 2021, which put an additional pressure on the system. The Department has seen unprecedented increases in the volume of applications for employment permits over the course of 2021. In total last year, some 27,666 applications were received, representing a 69% increase over the same period in 2020 and a 47% increase based on 2019 figures. This was an 11-year high in applications. Even before Covid-19, therefore, this issue was growing, but Covid-19 has exacerbated it.

My Department issued more than 16,000 employment permits in 2021, and processed approximately 18,000 applications.

In addition, the extension of categories of employment permits following the latest review of the occupational lists has increased the availability of employment permits for these roles. We made changes in many areas in the autumn, as the Deputy referenced, including the construction sector, horticulture, meat processing and haulage. We have allowed for additional permits to be granted in those areas and that has resulted in about 3,000 more applications being made.

Processing times were also impacted by the HSE cyberattack last year. We are still suffering from that backlog. However, we have dealt with that and we have made changes to the system. Due to the significant additional administrative burden in dealing with these applications and the cyberattack, we put in place extra staff who were temporarily reassigned to assist in the process. That had a direct impact on the processing times. I and officials in my Department, along with the Tánaiste, recognise the impact delays on the processing times for employment permits has on businesses and their workers. A plan of action has been developed to meet the challenges and to bring down the backlog that has built up over recent months. The plan includes both additional staffing and systemic changes. The staffing actions being taken include recruitment of additional permanent and temporary staff, with an increase of 69% on our permanent capacity and 125% when temporary staff are included. On 2 February, additional approval was granted to increase our staffing levels again. Permanent capacity will increase by 125% and overall capacity, which includes permanent and temporary staff, will increase by 225%.

We are now in a position to deal with this backlog quite quickly over the next couple of months and will retain those extra staff in the months ahead to deal with the ongoing demand for permits. We are happy to work with individual sectors, like the haulage sector, on this issue. Last year we proactively removed the limit on the number of people who could come into the country and we worked with the Department of Transport and the Road Safety Authority to get agreement with other countries on the recognition of driving skills. That should assist in sourcing drivers.

Deputy Barry Cowen

I thank the Minister of State for his detailed response. I appreciate much of what has been said, including his honest appraisal and acknowledgement of the problem. I acknowledge the commitments that have been made and that are ongoing to address this issue, with the provision of new permanent staff and the allocation of temporary staff from other Departments to help. I agree that there is potential for this country to respond in a way that can benefit us all, notwithstanding the difficulties associated with the inflationary measures that have been here longer than one would have expected and which may well be here longer than we would like as well. It is imperative that we have a jobs-led recovery and that they are quality jobs and quality contracts with quality delivery. We should maintain the standards that we have grown accustomed to in many specialist areas such as those I have mentioned.

I appreciate the Government's progress in the provision of apprenticeship courses within the CAO system and the increase in the number of places. I also acknowledge the work that has been done in targeting certain areas. In my constituency, the Construction Industry Federation and Offaly ETB targeted and recognised the potential of the retrofitting programme. I hope to visit there again tomorrow to see for myself the efforts being made to provide the sort of capacity that is needed in that sector to meet the demands of the system. Provisions were announced this week that will be especially relevant for those incremental benefits that can accrue in my region because of people's dependence on solid fuel and oil and so forth. They are in far greater need of action than many others who will be well-placed to take advantage of the €25,000, and more luck to them if they can.

I ask that the Government maintain the effort that is being made to address this issue. There is recognition within the Department of the need to address this speedily and to do so in a way that ensures that companies that have built up a reputation can maintain it and that the quality of our workforce, its products and the expertise associated with it can be maintained and improved into the future. Then that jobs-led recovery can play its part in ensuring that it responds positively, in addition to the Government intervention for the inflationary pressure on our economy.

Deputy Damien English

I assure Deputy Cowen that every effort will be made by our Department to put enough staff in place and to change the system to make sure we can process these permits. As I have outlined, there has been an increase in staff on these teams. There are more than 50 additional people in the system and many of the existing staff are working overtime and every night they are allowed to work in order to deal with the backlog. With the plan we have put in place, we will get through this backlog in the next few months and get back on track to normal processing times. We are committed to monitoring the level of applications because I expect this demand to continue for a period. We will monitor that and keep staffing at the level required to deal with that and keep on track. We pride ourselves on having a very strong permit regime, which has worked quite well up until now and responds generally to the needs of the various sectors. Processing times of 18 to 20 weeks are not acceptable and we will not continue with that. I guarantee that there is a plan in place and that those the numbers will come back down.

I echo the Deputy's comments. The Government, including the Ministers for Social Protection, Further and Higher Education, Research, Innovation and Science, and Education, and I are happy to work with any sector with identifiable needs. We do a lot of analysis in our Department on the future needs analysis of the various sectors and we have put many reforms in place in the educational system to respond to that. The Deputy touched on the importance of the apprenticeship schemes and the further education and training sector. Our ETBs are ready and able to respond and work locally and nationally with various sectors to turn out the skills they need. There are still quite a number of people on jobseekers' payments or the PUP and we ask that they avail of the various supports to get back into work, retrain or take the subsidies for employees and employers in these sectors. I am conscious that even with that, certain sectors will need skills from abroad. We will work with them to make this an option but in the long term we would like to see those jobs filled from within the country, or certainly from within Europe, if at all possible. We are happy to work with Deputy Cowen or any of the industries he has mentioned on that.