Dáil Éireann debate -
Thursday, 17 Feb 2022

Vol. 1018 No. 3

Saincheisteanna Tráthúla - Topical Issue Debate

Defective Building Materials

Deputy Joe McHugh

Ba mhaith liom aitheantas a thabhairt don Aire Stáit as a dhíograis agus a thiomantas maidir leis an scéim seo. Gabhaim buíochas freisin leis an Aire, an Teachta Darragh O'Brien, as a thiomantas. I welcome the Minister of State. It is our fourth time to discuss this Topical Issue. I will make five points and perhaps when I make my next contribution I will be able to elaborate on them.

The first point is that facilitators are needed on the ground in Donegal with immediate effect to disseminate information and to fill a communication gap that exists at present, which is very difficult for homeowners. They are trying to navigate their way through this torture. It is a torture, and it is continuing. That is important. Ms Ann Owens of the Mica Working Group has been very consistent on this appeal. Commitments were made last summer. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien, mentioned the outreach from the Housing Agency that is in operation, but people need to see this happening and to see people on the ground with immediate effect.

Second, I was delighted to hear the comments of the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth, regarding the retrofit scheme. We have talked about this off-campus as well. While I welcome the retrofit scheme being assimilated into the mica scheme, it is very important that we do not add another layer of bureaucracy to what is already a quagmire in some people's eyes, making it impossible to pedal their way through this scheme. If the retrofit scheme is going to be done in unison, let us work into it that it is not an extra agency or Department trying to seek different rules and criteria. This has to be part of the one scheme.

The third point I wish to raise is the homeowners who have paid the engineering fees. On the last occasion, I mentioned a mother and daughter in Donegal who have taken out a loan of €12,000 from the credit union. That is a lot of money. The mother is not earning and is on a pension while the daughter is a carer, so they do not have money to pay back this finance. Basically, that money has to be paid back as a matter of urgency.

The 17% holding back on the payment is too high. In fact, some people believe it is actually as high as 25%. It has to be reduced, and I know there are conversations to that effect taking place. It is important that this is addressed as a matter of priority.

The point of raising this matter tonight with regard to the Society of Chartered Surveyors of Ireland, SCSI, is that I believe the Department made an error in what it did over two weeks ago. It drew up the terms of reference in consultation with the SCSI but did not include the voice of the homeowners. That was a mistake. It has eroded confidence in a process that is already at a very vulnerable level. It has really got the homeowners' backs up that they were not part of that as well. I know this has been addressed in terms of trying to have a better stakeholder representation, but the danger here is, with the SCSI feeding into the Department on the terms of reference, whether that door is closed or ajar for the homeowners, who incidentally are meeting with the SCSI today. Can they still have their voice heard and be part of the terms of reference?

Minister of State at the Department of Housing, Local Government and Heritage (Deputy Malcolm Noonan)

Gabhaim buíochas leis an Teachta as an gceist seo a ardú. We have discussed this previously and I will try to address some, if not all, of the issues the Deputy raised and, perhaps in closing, the retrofit part of it specifically.

Again, I thank the Deputy for consistently raising this issue on behalf of his constituents. It is critical that we get it right for the communities that are affected by this. The Minister, Deputy Darragh O'Brien brought a memorandum to the Government on an enhanced defective concrete blocks scheme on 30 November 2021. It included an unprecedented suite of improvements to the current scheme which removed the financial barrier to entry to the scheme by simplifying and streamlining the application process, increased the grants available from 90% to 100% of allowable costs and the maximum grant level from €247,500 to €420,000, provided for a second grant in certain circumstances, introduced an independent appeals process and strengthened the certificate of remediation available to homeowners.

The Government approved the enhanced scheme, which is estimated to come in at approximately €2.2 billion. The revised grant calculation methodology will be based on the size of the existing home using a cost per sq. m. Up-to-date construction costs are an important consideration in this regard. Accordingly, the Society of Chartered Surveyors Ireland has agreed to produce a report on up-to-date construction costs for the type of remediation works carried out under the scheme on a variety of home types under the defective concrete blocks scheme. The SCSI will be independent in its work but in the interest of fairness, it has engaged with the Department on the matter and has agreed to hear a submission from homeowners on construction costs in the north west. This relates to the final point the Deputy made. The specific grant rates that will be implemented will be set by the Department after the SCSI provides its independent advice. Construction costs in the SCSI report will be reviewed annually to reflect construction cost changes. They are changing rapidly as we are all aware.

In relation to implementation of the enhanced scheme, the Minister, Deputy O'Brien, recently wrote to the PRO of the Mica Action Group on these matters updating him on work undertaken to date in regard to implementation of the enhanced scheme. It is important that homeowners have the opportunity to engage on implementation of the scheme. In this regard, John O'Connor, former chief executive officer of the Housing Agency, was recently appointed to act as liaison between homeowners and the Department and its expert group on implementation of the enhanced scheme.

The Minister fully understands the level of anxiety and apprehension around the scheme given the scale involved and homeowners' experiences of the devastation caused by defective concrete blocks. I reiterate, on behalf of the Minister, his commitment to urgently build a grant scheme which is fit for purpose with grant rates based on the independent work of the SCSI that covers the real costs involved. I will provide more information in my next response.

Deputy Joe McHugh

I thank the Minister of State. The response is consistent with the information the Minister has been sending to me. I will focus on several elements. The word "independence" was used a number of times in the reply. This independence has been somewhat tarnished by what has happened in the past two weeks. It is very important that whatever submission the homeowners make is not just seen as a listening exercise but also that they have something to contribute. It has to be done in a proactive way.

Since 2014, when the then Minister of State, Paudie Coffey, and I sat in a room with officials from the Department with responsibility for the environment, there have been many false dawns and timeframes. Many months have been mentioned. We have been told that this will be done and that will be done in the next few weeks. We are all coming out of lockdown. People who are fortunate enough to have homes have spent two years in them. Mica homeowners have spent two years in houses that are falling down. They need a timeframe that is honest and upfront. The Minister has said in response to me this will be completed at the end of the spring and the legislation will go through. The Attorney General and his team are working very hard on this. They are making it a priority. They are meeting twice a week. It is very important that we stick to whatever timeframe we give and it does not drag on. According to the old Gaelic calendar spring starts in Ireland on 1 February. It is argued that in the northern hemisphere spring starts on 1 March. We need to be very careful about throwing out timelines that will not be met. We have to help people navigate their way through this. The most important thing that needs to happen today is that people who are owed money for engineering costs need to be repaid. We need facilitators on the ground as a matter of priority.

Deputy Malcolm Noonan

I take on board the points made by Deputy McHugh on independence and on taking on board the submissions in a proactive way. We will take on board the specific point on owners who have paid engineering costs. We are moving towards a full and better resolution.

Deputy McHugh specifically asked about retrofit. It is important to clarify a number of aspects of the parameters of the scheme. Foundations are being considered as part of the National Standards Authority of Ireland's review of the IS 465 standard. Any future change to this will be integrated into the scheme. The scheme is based on legal advice on a like-for-like remediation grant. Remediation options will adhere to building regulations.

In respect of home upgrades, I can confirm that homeowners will be eligible for the newly revised SEAI retrofit grants on the same terms and conditions as other homeowners. This was clarified earlier by the Minister of State, Deputy Ossian Smyth. Significant work is under way to make immediate improvements to the current scheme in parallel with legislating for and implementing the enhanced scheme. Amending regulations are being finalised to provide for immediate recoupment to homeowners of engineers' fees and the introduction of allowable costs for essential work for immediate repairs to the value of €5,000. There is also an increase in the value of stage payments that can be drawn before the final grant payment.

An expert group has been established to advise the Minister on technical issues for purposes required in the legislation. These include, for example, damage threshold for entry into the scheme, an independent appeals process, second grant conditions, certificates of remediation, engagement with and resourcing of local authorities to continue the work of the scheme and the role of the Housing Agency in an enhanced scheme and transition.

It is important that people accessing grants under the scheme are able to avail of the national retrofit scheme in a way that delivers a seamless customer experience. Work is already under way between the Department and the Department of the Environment, Climate and Communications to provide a streamlined mechanism. It is our intention this will be deployed over the coming months.

Medicinal Products

Deputy Gary Gannon

I thank the Office of the Ceann Comhairle for providing time for this Topical Issue on the urgent need for accessible and affordable medical care for those suffering from hyperemesis. The women's health task force and the medicines management programme were recently tasked with finding a solution when it comes to the treatment of hyperemesis with the drug Cariban. Cariban is the first stage in the treatment algorithm for hyperemesis in our national guidelines but it is unlicensed in Ireland and unavailable for reimbursement, with treatment costing more than €3,000 in some cases over the course of a pregnancy. Yesterday some welcome news was reported from the Fianna Fáil Parliamentary Party meeting. I would very much like to hear the detail of what was proposed and the impact this will have for those suffering with the condition.

Minister of State at the Department of Health (Deputy Anne Rabbitte)

I was not at yesterday's parliamentary party meeting. I am taking this matter on behalf of the Minister for Health, Deputy Donnelly. The Minister appreciates that hyperemesis is a debilitating condition for women and is anxious that our health service should support women with this condition in every way possible. Improving women's health outcomes is a key priority for the Minister and this Government. We made a strong commitment to promoting women's health in the programme for Government and are fully committed to the development and improvement of women's health services. As part of the women's health agenda, officials supporting women's health in the HSE and the Department of Health are working with urgency to identify all of the available options to better support this cohort of women. In the coming weeks, the Minister for Health will be bringing a women's health action plan to Government. It will set out a wide range of initiatives to support women's health, including maternal health.

On the question of access to medicines to treat the condition, unfortunately the situation is not straightforward. As the Deputy is aware, the HSE has statutory responsibility for medicine pricing and reimbursement decisions under the Health (Pricing and Supply of Medical Goods) Act 2013. Under the Act, only items that have been granted market authorisation by the European Medicines Agency or the Health Products Regulatory Authority can be added to the reimbursement list. The Minister for Health is advised by the HSE that the product Cariban, which is regarded as a beneficial treatment for hyperemesis, is classified as a food supplement rather than a medicinal product. It does not have a marketing authorisation from the European Medicines Agency or the Health Products Regulatory Authority and, therefore, cannot be added to the formal reimbursement list under the 2013 Health Act.

However, the Minister for Health understands that some hospitals prescribe and dispense Cariban free of charge to patients with severe nausea and vomiting in pregnancy. The prescribing of an unlicensed product in a hospital setting is solely at the discretion of the treating clinician. Two other products, Navalem and Xonvea, are authorised by the Health Products Regulatory Authority for the treatment of nausea and vomiting in pregnancy in women.

However, a pricing and reimbursement application has not been submitted to the HSE for Navalem. The HSE also advises that in late 2021, the company responsible for Xonvea advised that they are not in a position to launch the product in Ireland at this time. The HSE has developed a national framework for access to medicinal products not currently on the reimbursement list through discretionary hardship arrangements in exceptional cases. As Cariban is considered to be a food supplement rather than a medicinal product, it cannot be considered for reimbursement as an exempt medicinal product under the General Medical Services, GMS, scheme and community drug scheme, or reimbursement under the discretionary hardship arrangements. For this reason, the HSE's own internal medicines management programme was asked last month to review the clinical evidence available on Cariban, and to make a recommendation on the appropriateness and feasibility of an exceptional patient-specific process for access to the product. The Minister for Health is advised by the HSE that this evidence review has commenced and the results of the review, along with recommendations, should be completed in a matter of weeks. The Minister for Health appreciates that this is a worrying time for women suffering with hyperemesis and is hopeful that the HSE can arrive at a positive outcome with respect to Cariban and its availability under the community drug scheme in Ireland.

Deputy Gary Gannon

I sense the Minister of State's frustration in the response. When I give my response back it is not aimed at the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, it is aimed at the lack of urgency in addressing the issue.

When the Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, was in opposition in 2018 he raised this very issue. Back then he would have brought it to the Heath Products Regulatory Authority much quicker than last month.

The effects of hyperemesis are not insignificant for pregnant women. It takes an extreme toll on the mental and physical health of the pregnant person. I want to thank the work of Hyperemesis Ireland and everyone who has shared their story on just how debilitating, isolating, and needlessly financially devastating this condition can be. I acknowledge also the domino effect that this has on our health care system. In 2019 there were 3,237 day patients and inpatients as a result of dehydration and for hyperemesis treatment. In 2020, at a time when maternity services, like all health care services, were severely impacted a result of Covid, the figure was 3,007. How many women would not have needed such hospital intervention at the height of the pandemic had Cariban been available to them?

I will come off script now and say to the Minister of State that I believe there is a shared need for urgency around this issue. The Minister for Health, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, made a statement last that was picked up in the media, captured attention and got people excited. Can we please just bring some finality to this? Women are suffering as a consequence of an absence of action on the issue. This medication costs more than €3,000, or €45 per week, and people just cannot afford it. Let us get some urgency behind it. It does not have to be an issue of the Opposition versus the Government. I believe we share the same goal in this regard. I trust that the Minister of State would take this frustration, which we both seem to share, back to the Minister for Health. I ask that the Minister of State would put a bit of fire under him for it.

Deputy Anne Rabbitte

I will take this back after I leave the meeting later on. I do know that the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly, has put a priority on women's health. The priority means that if something was said last night, let us get clarification on that. As a woman who has given birth three times, I also suffered. I cannot say it was with hyperemesis but I know what morning sickness is like. I cannot imagine what that level of illness is like and I would not want any woman to go through it. I will talk to the Minister, Deputy Stephen Donnelly about this. As I have said it is a priority and it is a shared priority of all of in here to ensure that nobody has to go through that unnecessarily.

Driver Licences

Deputy Michael McNamara

Before I discuss my Topical Issue matter I must thank the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, for the fact that her colleague in the Department of Health did visit Cappagh Hospital. I just hope that some progress will be made there with regard to providing additional funding for the treatment of scoliosis and similar conditions.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, for coming to the House to take this issue. I wish to raise the necessity to fully reopen the National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, centre in Ennis to members of the public to provide a normal level of service. Some weeks ago in the Chamber we held a discussion on banking. It was slightly off topic but it was raised by the Minister of State's colleague from Carlow-Kilkenny, Deputy Phelan, and the discussion concerned the lack of services provided to elderly people by banks now. I completely and wholeheartedly agree with Deputy Phelan.

There are situations where such people are on the telephone and there is an option to dial 1 to wait for 15 minutes, dial 2 to wait a further 15 minutes, and dial 4 for your call to be terminated. It is leading to huge frustration for people and citizens across the State. It is bad when banks are doing it but they are private entities, although we bailed them out and so on. It is inexcusable and unforgivable when Government agencies and agencies of the State are providing that level of service. This is what is happening with the National Driver Licence Service centre in Ennis. It is located in what is commonly called the Tesco shopping centre across the road from Cusack Park in Ennis. People must book online and if a person cannot do so, they must use a particular telephone number. There are many people in the State who for one reason or another cannot book an appointment online. Then they must ring a telephone number.

I will give the Minister of State examples of a couple of experiences that have been brought to my office. One man of retirement age had to get his grandchild to make an online appointment for him as he could not walk into the centre. He received his appointment and attended the NDLS centre with his paperwork on Tuesday. The form was completed and signed, and his photograph was taken. Then, on Thursday of the same week he received a form in the post to be signed. He returned to the NDLS centre with the form but they would not help him. He was told that they were not in a position to help him so he had to email that for. Like other Deputies, I have a constituency office in Ennis. The man came to my office and we scanned and emailed the form. In my view, however, he should not have to do that. It was as simple as leaving a form in the door but they would not accept it.

In another case, a man from the west of the county took time off work to attend his appointment in the NDLS centre and he had his paperwork in place. He was told that they would not accept cash due to Covid. Now, everybody else is getting with it but the NDLS centre would not accept cash and this man did not have a card. He telephoned his wife and his wife gave him the card number but the centre would not accept that payment either because his wife was not present with him.

In another case, a woman in her 80s called to the office to say that she had been one and a half hours on the phone, that is, 90 minutes, trying to get an appointment. Eventually the call was terminated. Obviously I was not there with her and I do not know that she was a full 90 minutes on the phone but she has no reason to make it up. I also wish to give the details of something else, which I can verify. A woman of retirement age who does not have a laptop or a computer required her licence to be renewed. She was unable to contact the NDLS on the number given, which was the correct number. She called to our office, a member of my staff rang the number and was a full 45 minutes from 9.45 a.m. until 11.30 a.m. on the phone waiting to get through and eventually could not get through to make an appointment. I put it to the Minister of State that this is not good enough.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I thank the Deputy for raising this matter today. The National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, which processes applications for and issues driving licences and learner permits, is the statutory responsibility of the Road Safety Authority, RSA, and the service is provided under contract.

NDLS offices across the country closed to the public at the end of March 2020 to ensure the safety of the service's staff and of the public using the service during the Covid-19 pandemic. Services resumed on a phased basis on 8 June 2020. All NDLS centres are operating as normal to the public nationwide. Appointments must be booked to attend an NDLS centre and are made available through the booking system, as the Deputy has outlined, which is accessed online at www.ndls.ie or by telephone at 0818 919 090. Appointments are available currently up to 26 March 2022.

The walk-in service previously available was originally discontinued to ensure social distancing and compliance with occupational and public health requirements. Since then, maintaining an appointment-based service has facilitated the management of demand and capacity. Appointments are booked in ten-minute slots and customers can be assured of the service within their allotted time. Accordingly, the current NDLS contract, which was put in place with the front-office service provider in 2021, no longer offers a walk-in service.

The NDLS office in Ennis has always operated a two-booth capacity. Currently, 96% of available appointments are booked for Ennis. However, with the recruitment of an additional staff member, capacity will increase shortly. No-show rates in Ennis in January were 12.3% of all booked appointments.

To date in February, it is tracking at 13.3%. These are the highest no-show figures in the country. There is 35.48% availability of slots nationwide, which is equivalent to 26,496 appointments. The NDLS front office has been challenged due to some absences caused by Covid but has maintained a full service, with minimum disruption and with completed applications being processed within three to five working days.

Due to the high demand for appointments, customers are asked to ensure that they attend at their appointed time. Where appointments are not held on time, this affects the service for the following appointments. Where a customer no longer wishes to keep a booked appointment, he or she is asked to cancel that appointment so that it can be made available to others looking for bookings. An online service is available for all application types and customers can apply or renew their driving licence or learner permit at ndls.ie. A verified mygov.ie account, which requires a public services card, is needed. The online service currently accounts for 45% of total applications. Further details can be found on the NDLS website. My Department is not responsible for the issuing of public services cards.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank the Minister of State. What she has just told this House is that a temporary reduction in services as a result of Covid is being used to introduce a permanent reduction, which is what we have accused the banks of doing. The RSA, an agency under the remit of the Department, seems to be happy with this. It is outrageous that people can no longer obtain access to a normal service. Covid is being used to downgrade services. That is all very well and good for those who can do their business on line, which is many us. What about those who cannot? Something else that is outrageous is the state of distress that people come out of that office in. I challenge the Minister of State to stand outside those offices. Elderly people feel there is absolutely no sympathy for their plight and they come out of the office in a state of distress.

I note the very high level of no-shows. I find that highly suspicious because I have heard numerous anecdotal accounts of people who have showed up two or three minutes late, still within their ten-minute slot, and who have been told they are late and have to go. That is not good enough. Of course people should show up on time, but life intervenes. Sometimes Ministers do not show up here on time because life intervenes. We try to get on with things and facilitate business, but it seems to be no willingness to do that in the NDLS in Ennis.

I am worried that the stance the Department is taking is to state the service was temporarily downgraded and that is wonderful, because, like the Bank of Ireland and AIB, it is going to use it as an excuse to permanently downgrade the service it offers without any cognisance of the impact that is having on elderly people's lives. I brought my father to get his last driving licence and distinctly remember it. I am happy he received a good level of service, but then and now are two very different things. This needs to be examined. It is not good enough in terms of the downgrading of the service and, in particular, the service being offered in Ennis.

Deputy Hildegarde Naughton

As I said, Ennis is increasing capacity to deal with the pressures on the service by having an appointment service in place which ensures better management of demand and capacity. The new staff member in Ennis will start on 28 February, which will increase capacity by 25%. There are two booths available, but the service is currently operating with 1.5. I have been assured by RSA that the staffing changes will improve the backlog. Those who have booked an appointment should please cancel if they are not going to attend because others are waiting.

On the telephone line, I can go back to the RSA regarding waiting times and raise the issue of people trying to contact the office. I can appreciate that people cannot get online and are not getting through on the phone line that is being provided. I will revert to the Deputy in terms of the operational management of that system.

Special Educational Needs

Deputy Martin Browne

In September, I raised with the Taoiseach the fact that at the time no autism spectrum disorder, ASD, unit or classroom was available for primary school children in Carrick-on-Suir. In his reply, the Taoiseach stated that there was no issue with resourcing ASD units, that extra classes are being opened and schools needed to apply for ASD units. At the end of last week, parents were informed that it is not as easy as the Taoiseach made it out to be. An application made by Gaelscoil Charraig na Siúire was unsuccessful.

Last September, people locally were forced to set up a campaign group to highlight the need for the service, given the difficulties they faced in securing places for their children. One parent highlighted to me that she had looked outside of the local area for an ASD unit to which she could send her daughter. She applied to three schools that had these units, all of which were outside of the area. Each told her that despite booking a place two years in advance, they could not guarantee that she could get one. It has since emerged that in the three or so years previously, as many as 20 people were found to have secured services outside of their area. However, the availability of spaces has dried up and the need for a unit in Carrick-on-Suir has never been more pronounced.

As stated, I raised this matter with the Taoiseach who told me there was no issue with resourcing ASD units. An application was made by the local Gaelscoil last Friday. It was told that current demand appears to be met from the current established classes in the surrounding areas. The school and parents were heartbroken and outraged by this because the reason given for the decision is clearly not based on the reality of the situation.

I have been informed that Piltown has 19 children on a waiting list. Portlaw also has a waiting list. Mooncoin and Carrigeen are full. There is no provision in Clonmel. Carrick-on-Suir and Clonmel combined have a considerable population, yet are meant to make do with the services provided in smaller communities elsewhere. The truth is that to say the requirement for Carrick-on-Suir will be met by existing ASD classes is simply wrong. I have also been told that, when asked, one of the people who signed the letter that turned down an application could neither name nor identify where the additional capacity they referred to was. This is an outrageous way to treat a community and indicates that the system is clearly broken and children have to suffer as a result. There is also a feeling that the lack of special educational needs organisers in South Tipperary is putting Carrick-on-Suir and the wider area off the map.

Is it the case that it is seen as appropriate for a town bordering Kilkenny and Wexford to rely on existing services in those counties? Is it right that children who have a specific need must attend mainstream classes because their particular needs are too much of a headache for the Department? Either way, it is a complete disservice to the children and families of Carrick-on-Suir and the wider area of that part of south Tipperary to say that their needs can be met elsewhere when clearly they cannot.

Can the Minister of State tell the people of Carrick-on-Suir why it is seen as appropriate for the Department to tell them that their needs can be met elsewhere when they clearly cannot? Why is there no special educational needs organiser to represent people's needs?

Minister of State at the Department of Education (Deputy Josepha Madigan)

I thank Deputy for raising this matter. I always relish the opportunity to talk about special education, especially in the context of areas that need to be addressed. I will get into the specifics of the particular matter, but I want to speak about special education in general.

We have an extensive budget that has increased from €1.1 billion to €2.2 billion over the past number of years, in terms of special classes. The Deputy has asked about what I call special classes and some people call ASD units. There are now 2,148 special classes throughout the country, an increase of 386% since 2011. I want to show the Deputy the progress that has been made before getting into the detail of what he asked about.

Some 1,900 special classes are specifically dedicated to autism which, as we know, is growing exponentially not just in Ireland but internationally. The National Council for Special Education, NCSE, and the Department have worked extensively over the past two years to make sure that we have a streamlined approach. It is important that there is short, medium and long-term planning in order to take population demographics into account, as well as the percentage of school going children that will have an additional need, to ensure that capacity is in place for the future.

This year, 229 special classes opened, which will provide 1,800 additional special class places. From this September, 287 new special classes will come on stream, providing 1,700 places.

We will have a total of 2,400 next year. We are making significant progress all the time. We will have more than 19,000 special needs assistants by the end of this year, which is an increase of 81% since 2011. That is the general view. I do not want the Deputy to be under any illusion that we are not making progress. On this particular issue, in Tipperary, we have 95 special classes. Some 72 of those are for autism, 24 are attached to mainstream settings in south Tipperary, and 12 are at primary level, including two early intervention classes, and 12 are at post primary level. Four new special classes are being opened this year, with two at primary level and two at post primary. From September, there will be five new special classes, with four primary and one post primary. There are also eight autism special classes in the bordering counties, with six primary and two post primary classes in Kilkenny and Waterford, which border Carrick-on-Suir. They are within a 20 km radius of the town.

I will talk about the Gaelscoil etc. when I come back in a second time if I do not get to finish it now. Education is a right under the Constitution. We endeavour to provide that education to all of our children, especially children with additional needs. It is not always possible to provide special classes, special schools or indeed a mainstream class within a particular area, but we endeavour to do so. The Department made site visits to many primary schools in Carrick-on-Suir. We were told that no space was available in those primary schools. The Deputy mentioned Portlaw National School and Carrigeen National School. I understand that they have six places each. They are in the catchment area for Carrick-on-Suir and Waterford.

Deputy Martin Browne

The level of demand for autism spectrum disorder units will probably increase in the near future because of the backlog in assessments and diagnosis. There are children currently in mainstream classes who have no choice but to be there because their needs have not been formally diagnosed yet. I appreciate what the Minister of State says about extra classes. There are none in Carrick-on-Suir or south Tipperary. She can tell me about the 95 in Tipperary, but I do not think the Department realises how big a county Tipperary is. It is grand to say 95, but it is the biggest inland county in Ireland, so 95 is not enough as far as we or the parents are concerned.

In one case, a family is trying to make preparation for their daughter's education and they need finance to do so because of the delay in getting a formal diagnosis leaving them in limbo. It is another mess. I appreciate that the pandemic has caused backlogs, but it cannot be used as an excuse for everything that is going on. The Minister of State needs to look at the future and prepare for the increasing demand and the responsibility that will fall to her and her colleagues in the Department. I appeal to the Minister of State to put Carrick-on-Suir on her agenda. As far as I can see, it has been left behind either out of convenience or because the system is broken. The reply the Gaelscoil received indicates that the system is indeed broken, because the reasons for the refusal had no basis in reality and are factually incorrect.

Our children should be served better in Tipperary and around the country. Many have been through an incredibly difficult time during the pandemic. The Minister of State has a responsibility to them and their families, to listen to their needs, to address their demands, and to provide for them. I am not laying the blame with the Minister of State. Carrick-on-Suir has already been let down by the health system, the Department of Health and the Minister for Health, with St. Brigid's hospital closing. I ask the Minister of State to address the issue of ASD classes in that area and to at least give the people of Carrick-on-Suir some hope.

Deputy Josepha Madigan

The Deputy is correct that I do have a responsibility to meet the special education provision needs of people in various places around the country, including in Carrick-on-Suir. Regarding the assessment of children with additional needs, the Minister of State, Deputy Rabbitte, has responsibility for that in the Department of Health. She is aware of it and I understand that she has cleared 70% of the backlog. It is important that we work well together so that those assessments are made before children avail of their educational placements.

The National Council for Special Education has been engaging with the Gaelscoil, particularly about its medium of instruction and the interaction and integration of students in mainstream settings. That is a possibility. I mentioned other schools, including Portlaw National School and Carrigeen National School. Piltown National School also has one space for September. Additional school accommodation can be provided where there is no existing capacity in a school to cater for children. I understand that the most recent application from schools in Carrick-on-Suir for capital funding in that school planning area has been approved. That may indicate that there will be space for special classes.

Anticipating the current and future demand is critical when we are planning for special education. For the first time, the National Council for Special Education is working closely with the building and planning unit so that we can anticipate that demand and provide those places. If there are children in Carrick-on-Suir who are without a school place, special class place or a mainstream class place, we will endeavour to make sure that they have that place when they attend school. The Deputy brought it to the House's attention today and it will be brought to the attention of the Department.

Deputy Martin Browne

Mooncoin, Portlaw, Piltown, Carrigeen, Clonmel and Carrick-on-Suir have nothing. I ask the Minister of State to address it. I appreciate her answer.