National Driver Licence Service: Motion [Private Members]

Deputy Michael McNamara

I move:

That Dáil Éireann:

notes that:

— the current National Driver Licence Service (NDLS) contract, which was put in place in 2021 while the attention of the body politic was diverted by the Covid-19 pandemic, no longer offers a walk-in service, the walk-in service having originally ceased temporarily in March 2020 to ensure the safety of the service's staff and of the public using the service during the Covid-19 pandemic;

— the Road Safety Authority (RSA) awarded the contract to the Swiss company SGS, which operates 34 offices, some of them on a part-time basis, over An Post which has a network of 950 post offices;

— a verified MyGovlD account, which requires a Public Services Card (PSC), is needed to avail of the online service despite a previous Data Protection Commission investigation into the legality of the PSC which found that there was no lawful basis for a person to be told they needed the card for anything other than accessing social welfare or benefits;

— cash payments are not accepted at NDLS offices; and

— insufficient staffing has led to a further diminution of the service provided at NDLS offices and to those seeking to book an appointment at those offices by telephone; and

calls on the Government to instruct the RSA:

— to set up an open, competitive tendering process in accordance with national and European Union procurement rules to provide a walk-in service at multiple centres across the State;

— to ensure that future contracts require the service provider to be sufficiently staffed to provide an adequate service and to enforce existing contractual provisions ensuring an adequacy of service;

— to ensure that all NDLS offices accept cash payments; and

— to discontinue the requirement for applicants availing of online services to provide a PSC.

I thank the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, for coming in to take this debate. At the outset, has it been indicated that the Government is putting forward an amendment to this motion? I hope it will be accepted. I will believe that if and when a vote is called.

In regard to the current national driver licence, to start at the beginning, until 2013 people obtained their driver licences in the same way as they obtained their motor tax, that is, at their local authority offices. In 2013 the local authorities, which were the issuing authorities for driver licences were replaced with a sole issuing authority, that being the Road Safety Authority. The Road Safety Authority in its wisdom decided to tender for three contracts, one of which was the front office service where people went in to give their information and hope that they would obtain the licence. The other two contracts were for the back office to go through the data etc. and the third was for physically printing or making the driver licence.

At the time, the Road Safety Authority awarded the contract to the Swiss service company, SGS, to be the front office provider. One Minister who sat around Cabinet at the time had a certain crisis of conscience thereafter. We are not aware that he had any at the time when he subsequently announced that that was a contract that should have been given to An Post. However, it was not given to An Post, but to this Swiss company which set up 33 offices at the time. It has very recently announced a 34th office.

There is now a difficulty, according to information the Minister of State confirmed to me in the Dáil at the end of the week before last when I brought to her attention the difficulties in obtaining appointments at the Ennis office. She confirmed that the walk-in service, which previously had been discontinued during Covid-19 based on health and safety advice to ensure there was as little contact as possible between people, was completely discontinued when a new contract was awarded in 2021. I have worries about that on a variety of levels. The first is that it appears to me, and I do not think it is unfair to suggest, that Covid-19 was used as a cover for the downgrading of a public service. The second is the lack of a walk-in service per se. People are still able to go to an National Driver Licence Service, NDLS, office, of which there are now 34 in the country although some of them, including some in the Minister of State's own constituency, operate on a part-time basis, but they have to make an appointment in advance. To make an appointment, you have either to go online, or ring a number. I have previously highlighted the difficulties that my constituents in Clare had in booking that ten-minute slot. One woman in her 80s spent 90 minutes on the phone and people in my office spent 45 minutes on the phone. I thought this might be unique to Ennis but since I raised this issue with the Minister of State it has come to my attention that this is a widespread problem throughout the country.

In the space of less than ten years we have gone from a situation where anybody was able to walk into his or her local authority office and get his or her driver licence, to people not being even able to book an appointment in a public service. What ought to be a public service is no longer public because it is being provided by a Swiss logistics company, SGS, and it is no longer really a service. If you cannot book your appointment, and I do not think it unfair to say that if you have to spend almost an hour, or in excess of an hour, on the telephone trying to book a ten-minute appointment, it is inadequate. I note the Minister of State is agreeing with me on at least that much, this morning.

The other thing is you can renew your licence online completely but to do that, you need a public services card. The Minister of State will be aware that during the previous Government's term of office the Data Protection Commissioner carried out an investigation into the legality of the public services card and in particular using it as a basis or requiring it to provide services other than social welfare services, and found that there was no lawful basis for that. There was a big brouhaha about it. The Government took a case against the Data Protection Commissioner which was subsequently compromised or settled between the parties. To the best of my knowledge, that Data Protection Commissioner finding that it is unlawful to request a public services card for anything other than social welfare services, stands. Regardless of her view on whether it stands or not, I ask the Minister of State to point to me somewhere in legislation which says that a public services card is required in order to renew a driver licence. The public services card is not mentioned anywhere in the Road Traffic Acts and they are what govern the granting of driver licences.

Why are we making it so difficult to renew driver licences? That is what I would like to know. Why are we moving State services in this direction which is essentially to trim them, to privatise them and make them less accessible to the citizens that we are supposed to be serving? Those are my concerns. When the contract was being renewed in 2021, I was not aware of it at the time and it probably slipped under the radar for many people because of what was going on at the time, but An Post again sought the tender. An Post has several hundred offices throughout the country, with 950 post offices. I accept that it might not be able to provide a driver licence renewal service in all of them, but I expect it could provide the service in many of them. Yet it was passed over again in favour of this Swiss logistics company which has 34 offices. We are talking about saving An Post and about moving as many services as possible into An Post. We criticise the banks for taking services away from our main streets and the difficulties that entails for sections of our population who may not be good with computers or who live in an area where there is not a good broadband service or who simply want to have a service provided face-to-face and yet, we seem to be doing exactly the same thing.

The last issue I wish to bring to the Minister of State's attention is one that I brought up before, which is that SGS is now refusing to accept cash, at least in Ennis and I do not know if this is nationwide. Again, is there any lawful basis for that? I can accept it, if it was a temporary measure during Covid-19 not to accept cash, but why on earth can it not accept cash now? What is the problem? It has a limited number of offices, it can lodge the cash at the end of the day. The office in Ennis is in a shopping centre. We are not talking about huge amounts of cash whereby the office would become a target. We are seeing a complete downgrading of the service and it concerns me.

Another thing that irks me about driving licences is the countries from which one can have their driving licence recognised. It is countries that one might expect: Australia, Isle of Man, Jersey, South Africa, New Zealand, the UK and Northern Ireland, of course, as well as some provinces of Canada, leaving out Quebec, Nova Scotia and Prince Edward Island.

What concerns me slightly more is the 50 states of the United States. We have much interaction with the United States. We have many people moving over and back. It is not in the motion and I accept that, but can the Minister of State explain the rationale in her summing up as to why we do not recognise driving licences from the United States? The UK recognises driving licences from some countries but not from others and if it does not recognise the licence, then a person has to do the practical and theory tests before getting a licence. That is all quite rational. However, in respect of the countries from where Ireland does not recognise driving licences, on top of that, even if you have been driving ten or 20 years in another country and you come to Ireland, you also have to do all the lessons. That is a racket. People who have been driving for 20 years and had a licence in another country should be able to sit the test and then they will either pass or fail the test. The idea that they would have to do all of the lessons, even if they had been driving for most of their adult lives in another jurisdiction, makes very little sense. I would like to know what the rationale to that is.

I urge the Minister to accept this motion because of the diminution of services in the driving licences renewal area.

Deputy Michael Fitzmaurice

First, I support this motion. While Covid-19 has brought many problems for people, it seems to be a cover for many things at present in taking services away. We see things changing in agriculture day in, day out. Some changes are for the better and I will never be against prosperity or moving things on. However, we also have to remember in this country that there is a generation of people who gave to this country but never had the opportunities that every one of us have had, such as being able to work a computer, being able to go online and being able to bank online or fill out forms. We seem to have become a generation that wants to nearly cast those people aside. I think a nation is viewed by how it looks after its elders. We seem to have this thing in our head of basically leaving them with difficulty, to say the least, in trying to access services. As Deputy McNamara pointed out, one could spend 90 minutes on a phone call. Does an 85-year-old deserve that? Even for Deputies, who to be frank should have a direct line such as we have in some services, in fairness it is pretty good but it takes 45 or 50 minutes to get through. Then someone will come on and say about 40 times that you can do it online. In the first instance, you might not have the broadband for it. That is the biggest problem for many people in rural areas.

Sometimes we think we are doing good. The councils were looking after licences at one time and then we decided to set up a new system. If we are going to protect or help the post office network in this country, I have always said that doing many little things will make it sustainable and make it work. However, we decided, of course, that, because of EU rules and procurement, a foreign company would get the tender. Sometimes we do things and we think are going forward, but in actual fact we are going backwards.

I ask the Minister of State to listen to the Deputy. I hope that she will not table an amendment and call a division on it. This needs to be revisited. This needs to be made accommodating for people, especially those in the rural areas, those who do not have the broadband and those who will not be hanging on the end of a phone for 90 minutes. This is a solution that needs to be put in place. However, a better solution down the road would be the likes of the post office network doing this, where there is one 5 km or 10 km away from people and where someone might talk to them, because not having that in-person interaction is the worst part in much of this. A person's problem could be worked out if someone actually talked to him or her and if he or she saw someone, not a screen.

Also, it appears as though this card, which started off in social protection, is being pushed despite the legal question. I urge the Minister of State to produce the document that was given to the Government on the legal standing of this card because sooner or later, if the Government does not make the move, someone in this country will push the button and go to the courts. If legal advice to a Government is to not use this card other than in respect of social protection, then it should be adhered to, at the very least. I envisage that if the Government keeps trying to drive this the way it is at present, someone in this country will be obligated to basically prove that it cannot do what it is trying to do.

On the whole licence issue, I have talked to people who, thankfully, have come back from Australia and different countries from where you do not have problems getting a driving licence here. As Deputy McNamara pointed out, a person has to go around the rigamarole for I do not know how long trying to get licences sorted. We should nearly have a one-stop shop and it would be a good idea for the likes of the post offices. Imagine that there are now companies setting up in Ireland that try to get people coming back to this country set up here. The person who is coming back to work in Ireland is actually paying people basically to get his or her life in line for licences, a bank account – another thing for which you now could be waiting for three months – and all the simple things that are necessary to make sure that you can live a normal life and fit into a community. We are crying out for people at the moment in different sectors, yet we are putting every block we can in their way.

Another thing on licences is that in 1992, much of the paperwork was basically eliminated. Then, a few years later, we decided to bring in a requirement whereby a person needs a trailer licence. At that time, there was no paperwork to show what one had. This trailer licence has caused huge problems, especially in the farming community, and a resolution should have been brought to the issue.

There is another thing I urge the Minister of State to do. Day in, day out I meet elderly people in particular who got their provisional licence years ago. They never bought a car and had a tractor and were tipping around with the tractor on the rural roads. We have gone to being a society now where we look at someone and say, "That is illegal." These people at one time were used to going into the back of a van but as time progressed, we got offices in which to do the theory test. We have pushed a certain amount and we all see it as public representatives, day in and day out. Some elderly farmer who might have had a provisional licence years ago does not have a licence now and is caught between the devil and the deep blue sea. Many of them never had the privilege of getting secondary education or college education, through no fault of their own. They have lived the best education of all, which is a thing called life. However, they are being pushed out and left, and they cannot even feed a few cattle with their own bale because they have no licence. I have urged for change before, and I am just blue in the face from talking about it. We talk about road safety and all the great things we are doing. As I have said, why do we not get a place such as Mondello Park? Why do we not get a place in the west of Ireland or four places in Ireland? There will not be an enormous number of them. Rather than putting people with a difficulty through this paperwork, they could go around some place that has all the signs up and do it in a simple way.

If it is done in a simple way then people who might have learning or other difficulties can be brought inside the law. We have to stop pushing people outside the law. We have to show a bit of heart and find ways to solve things.

The way things have gone in this country now, you look at a screen, answer 35 out of 40 questions or else they are a failure. That is it. Everything now is about referring to a computer or to this, that and the other. If we keep going down that road, we will push more and more people out. I see it, day in and day out. Through no fault of their own, there is a lot of these people around the country but the people who are supposed to be promoting road safety do not appear to want to listen. They are not interested in putting a simple thing in place in areas that are safe. I have suggested Mondello Park as one example but there are three or four places around the country where this could be done, rather than telling people to go into an office and press a button on 40 questions which some of them might have difficulty in reading. They are told that they can get a reader but it is just not as simple as that. These people would be the finest in the world at driving. They are driving all their lives but now they are outside the system.

I urge the Minister of State to accept the motion. I also ask her to make a statement on the card and confirm that it is going to be scrapped for once and for all.

Minister of State at the Department of Transport (Deputy Hildegarde Naughton)

I thank the Deputies concerned for tabling this motion on the national driver licence service, NDLS. The Government will not be opposing the motion.

At the outset I would like to clarify that the NDLS front offices across the nation are open to the public. The only change since the new contract came into effect in June 2021 is that there is no longer an option to attend at an office without a prior appointment. Appointments can be may online or by telephone. A public services card, PSC, is not required to book an appointment.

The NDLS, which processes applications for and issues driving licences and learner permits, is the statutory responsibility of the Road Safety Authority, RSA. The service is provided to the RSA under contract. The NDLS front office service commenced in 2013 as a non-appointment service. An appointment service was subsequently provided to manage queues. Under this, people with an appointment had preference and attendance without an appointment was facilitated if time permitted.

The contracted service in place since 2013 ended in 2021 and a replacement NDLS front office service contract was procured. The procurement process for the new contract began in January 2020. It was not intended that the new contract, which took effect in June 2021, would offer a non-appointment option. This decision was made based on experience with the previous contract that managing a non-appointment element was difficult. RSA market analysis, ahead of procurement of the current service contract, showed that more bids and better value for money would be attainable for an appointment-only service. Such a service gives certainty to customers and prevents overcrowding, queueing and long waits. The nonappointment service had generated complaints from members of the public due to waiting times and delays. It also allows the provider to manage resourcing of the service because demand is predictable rather than having peaks and troughs during the day.

It should be noted that the procurement process did not prohibit tenderers from offering a nonappointment service. Four bids were received, each of a high standard. Following assessment under the published assessment criteria, the tender was awarded to the incumbent, SGS Ireland Limited, a Swiss company that has been active in Ireland for over 40 years, operates over 34 offices nationwide, and provides extensive services across a range of sectors. The contract has a term of two operational years from June 2021 to June 2023, with possible extensions to June 2025. An Post tendered for the contract but was unsuccessful. The procurement process and contract were totally compliant with EU and national law.

The requirements for the new contract differ from the predecessor as demand for the front office service is declining with the growth in the NDLS online service. The ability of companies to manage and adapt staffing requirements was an important element of the current contract. The decision to move to an appointment-only service was supported by the online licence renewal and application service, which accounts for over 40% of total applications, and the option for older customers to apply by post. The change was communicated to the public on the NDLS website and in renewal reminder notices. The existing service had moved to an appointment-only system from June 2020 because of Covid-19 restrictions before the new service began in June 2021. Therefore, an appointment-only service was in place one year before the new NDLS front office contract commenced. The current contract has virtually the same capacity and opening hours as the previous contract. It was expected that the NDLS front office capacity would be reducing in the lifetime of the new contract as the take up of the online service increases. In practice, the centres are now catering for more applications than originally forecasted for this time due to the effect of the licence and learner permit extensions. The effects of the extensions will apply until September of this year.

The same network of 34 permanent offices has been retained from the old to the new contract. The only reductions are two satellite centres which were open one day per week in Belmullet and Clifden. Approximately 20 to 30 appointments per week were catered for between both of these centres. These have not been retained due to the provision of an online service. Any significant change to the current contract would involve a contractual change and have commercial implications for the service. It is the RSA's opinion that the introduction of a non-appointment service would in fact diminish the quality of the service to the public.

An applicant is required to present photographic ID and evidence of Personal Public Service, PPS, number, address and residency entitlement when applying for a licence. Applications may be made in person at a NDLS office, where the required documents are examined and a face-to-face verification is made. A PSC is not required for an NDLS application made in an NDLS office. It may be used to establish identity but it is not mandatory and an applicant may use one of several options. For online applications, the same information is required but verifying a person's identity is more difficult online. A MyGovlD account, which requires a PSC, satisfies this requirement. Legal proceedings, in which the Department of Social Protection appealed an enforcement notice from the Data Protection Commission, DPC, on processing of personal data for PSCs, were resolved in December 2021. The agreement reached acknowledged that other public bodies listed in social welfare legislation, that is "specified bodies", may use the PSC as a means of verifying the identity of the people they deal with, provided that they also accept other methods of authenticating identity. The agreement also acknowledges and accepts that the Department of Social Protection and other specified bodies can continue to use MyGovlD as the sole means of authenticating identity for the purpose of accessing online services, provided that an alternative service channel is made available. The Road Safety Authority is a specified body for the use of a PSC under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act 2005, as amended by the Social Welfare and Pensions (No. 2) Act 2009. Applicants who do not have a PSC may apply for or renew a licence in person at an NDLS office.

Payment at the NDLS offices can be made by credit card, debit card, Google Pay, Apple Pay or Payzone vouchers. Payzone vouchers can be purchased from retailers in towns and villages nationwide. Card payment is significantly the most predominant means of payment. The NDLS allows an accompanying person make card payments for customers who do not have cards themselves. The decision was made not to accept cash after a market sounding exercise where only one potential bidder advocated accepting cash payments. The decision was made after evaluating security, administration and value for money factors.

As I mentioned earlier, appointments to attend at a NDLS front office can be made by telephone as well as online. Currently, 29,000 appointment slots are free out of 77,000 slots available for booking across a six week period. There is currently a high renewal demand for driving licences and learner permits due to the extensions put in place during the Covid-19 pandemic coming to an end. The RSA acknowledges the service provided to customers in the phone booking service in this period has been less than adequate. I have heard the concerns of Deputies in that regard today. At a minimum, three fulltime agents are necessary to provide the required level of service on the booking line. The service provider is working to ensure that these resources are available daily and are committing extra personnel to training to ensure that the three full-time staff members are assisted and supported through busy periods. The RSA has been assured that once training is completed this week, the service to the public will be greatly improved. It should be noted that where people are late for an appointment, they cannot always be accommodated.

Where possible, however, every effort is made to accommodate them.

No permanent NDLS offices have been closed. The services provided in Belmullet and Clifden were temporary and were set up to operate in hotels in those towns one day a week. Approximately 20 to 30 appointments per week were catered for between the two. The feedback from the market analysis conducted was that these two centres were not required in order to provide a strong service to the public. The provision of these temporary services was not included within the successful SGS proposal in response to the tender process.

Some NDLS front offices have had to close on some days or to offer a reduced service in the past few months because of absences due to Covid-19 pressures. The RSA is working to restore the service, with all centres open for the full contracted hours as soon as possible.

Deputy Thomas Pringle

The issue of a walk-in service for renewal of a driving licence or the contracting out of the NDLS may appear to many in this House to be inconsequential or beneath the usual high-brow issues more becoming of deliberation in the Dáil Chamber. At face value, that may appear to be true but we must realise that these are just two examples of a steady creep of the incessant rolling back of public service provision brought in by successive Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil Governments. Moreover, we need to recognise that these are symptoms of a disease, not the disease itself. The symptoms are the obliteration of State-provided universal public service and its direct replacement with for-profit privatisation where buzzwords such as "efficiency" and "streamlining" serve only to mask the reduction of services or the removal of universal service obligation as a core tenet.

Any doctor knows full well that treating the symptoms only goes so far and that the disease must be cured. The identification of the disease is not difficult. It is unfettered capitalism. It is the kind espoused and perfected in America by zealots such as Milton Friedman of the University of Chicago. Actions such as using the cover of the pandemic to remove the walk-in service at the likes of the NLDS are well-documented moves straight from Friedman playbook. Naomi Klein, in the opening pages of her seminal work, The Shock Doctrine: The Rise of Disaster Capitalism describes this well, saying of Friedman, "[In the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina] One of those who saw opportunity in the floodwaters of New Orleans was Milton Friedman, grand guru of the movement for unfettered capitalism". He proposed the privatisation of the school system, and backed by the Bush administration, Klein describes what happened next:

In sharp contrast to the glacial pace with which levees were repaired and the electricity grid brought back online, the auctioning off of the New Orleans' school system took place with military speed and precision.

[...]

Before Hurricane Katrina, the school board had run 123 public schools; now it ran just 4.

This perverse ideology was championed by Friedman and then found its natural home within the regimes of Reagan and Thatcher, but driven by a vast cohort of lobbyists and their money.

Where did the ideology in question take hold in this country? We must look back to the first act of a Romeo and Juliet-type story that continues to play out before us in this Chamber today. I refer to the unfinished saga of the merging of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael, and the unfortunate genes that appear to have become dominant in the offspring. It begins with the convergence of right-wing elements of both parties into the Progressive Democrats in the mid-1980s. What we saw emerge was a small cabal that exerted an undue influence over Irish economic policy that was far beyond their representation in the Dáil or the appeal of those policies to the people. However, propped up by their wilful enablers in Fianna Fáil, they did damage that has continued to the present day, with the contagion now having spread and taken control within Fine Gael. Sadly, when I look across the floor, I see only a small group of fundamentalists but they are in control of strategic Ministries of Government despite not leading it at present. This gang of four or five in Fine Gael appear destined to continue leading the party into the future according to media speculation, as the rest play bit-part roles as mere cheerleaders who attend openings, make local announcements and cut and paste their names into head office press releases for the local media. They are the golden scissors brigade.

I am not sure whether this is due to the apathy or ineptitude of those on the Opposition benches who appear to function almost exclusively on the basis of a mentality of “I'm just happy to be here” . I am sure of one thing, however. The days when backbench Deputies could vote in here to privatise public services or dubiously auction State assets, such as mobile phone licences, or close post offices and Garda stations and then scurry back to their constituencies and claim to be against the very same decisions, are coming to an end. You are being caught out and called out. The people are better informed and see through this. It is the death by a 1,000 cuts nature of the privatisation of services and the inevitable reduction of that service that follows which most gets to people. It is also the nature of who ends up worse off. It is easy for ourselves in here or younger citizens to navigate new online systems so the burden falls on the older generations or those without broadband, who tend to live in rural areas, or those who simply cannot afford a broadband service. These are the people targeted by such moves. They are the very people that this Government is willing to discard and sweep aside in pursuit of its privatisation agenda, which is often miscategorised as being in the name of progress.

This is why the motion to restore the NLDS walk-in service is important. It is important to my constituents in Donegal because most of us will wait until 2025 for the Government to roll out broadband to us. It is important for my constituents in Donegal because we have a higher proportion of older people than is the case nationally. It is important to my constituents in Donegal because we have lower disposable incomes and higher deprivation rates than most of the country. These issues are common to most of us who live in rural constituencies right across the western seaboard. It is vitally important that these services remain in public ownership and remain available to the public as walk-in services, which is the least that we can expect the Government to provide to citizens.

Deputy Joan Collins

I will go through the motion for clarity and to put it on the record of the Dáil. The motion reads, "the current National Driver Licence Service (NDLS) contract, which was put in place in 2021 while the attention of the body politic was diverted by the Covid-19 pandemic, no longer offers a walk-in service, the walk-in service having originally ceased temporarily in March 2020 to ensure the safety of the service's staff and of the public using the service during the Covid-19 pandemic". That is an important point because I do not think that there was a need to divert completely from the walk-in service after that temporary situation of a walk-in service.

The motion continues, "the Road Safety Authority (RSA) awarded the contract to the Swiss company SGS, which operates 34 offices, some of them on a part-time basis, over An Post which has a network of 950 post offices". If the RSA was concerned about long queues and waiting times for people applying for the national driver licence then I would have thought that access to 950 post offices would be a more accessible way for people to get their driving licences.

As has been said by my colleague, the outsourcing of public services for profit is in the DNA of Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil. The same policy has been adopted by the Department of Social Protection, with the local employment service, LES, throughout the country and new contracts. I have read a paper on the matter, and it is very clear that private companies are literally licking their lips with the opening of the welfare market. Can one imagine? Public services being declared a welfare market and private companies are waiting to pounce on them.

The motion continues also states, "a verified MyGovlD account, which requires a Public Services Card (PSC), is needed to avail of the online service despite a previous Data Protection Commission investigation into the legality of the PSC", which the Minister of State referred to in her response. Can passports or other forms of ID be used to avail of the online service? Not many people would oppose an online service once it is easy to use, accessible and there is an alternative walk-in service in terms of getting one's ID.

The motion states that cash payments are not accepted. That is ridiculous. My next door neighbour does not have a bank card. She uses cash all of the time and she has a car and drives. Loads of people still make cash payments yet we have a move towards the whole of concept of card payments only because that suits the banks and the State.

There is mention in the motion of insufficient staffing. The Minister of State indicated that there will be more training. I would have thought that staff to service the NDLS would have featured in the initial tender. I see that the contract will last up to 2023. I demand that the Minister put the contract for NDLS back out to tender in order that there will be greater facilitation of direct access, walk-ins, cash payments, etc.

I am sure the tendering process always depends on what is sought and the requirements put into the tender. I call on the Minister of State to consider changing that tender process and to allow people to access it more directly.

Deputy Darren O'Rourke

I welcome the opportunity to speak to this motion and I thank Deputy McNamara and the Independent Group for tabling it. Sinn Féin supports the motion, which raises some very important issues, particularly as they relate to inclusivity, State procurement and State priorities.

Two weeks ago, in a response to a parliamentary question I tabled, and again today, the Minister has confirmed that the current NDLS contract, which was put in place with the front-office service provider in June 2021, no longer offers a walk-in service. Appointments must be booked to attend an NDLS centre and are made available through the online booking system or by telephone. The fact is that the current system is failing people. I will share with the House the experience of one constituent of mine who went to his local NDLS centre on 8 February. He arrived for an appointment only to realise that he had not received an email - he does not have email - or a text confirmation so had no appointment. The centre was empty, however, so he immediately rang 0818 919 090. He received no response. He dialled 1 - no response. He dialled 9 - no response. The official behind the desk told him he was wasting his time. He went home. He tried to reach the service on that number for 20 minutes on each of the next four days. He received no response. On day five he waited 101 minutes before his call was answered.

To add insult to injury, this service has been outsourced to a private company with a limited footprint, 34 offices, at a time when this Government and that which preceded it have known full well that An Post and the Irish Postmasters Union are crying out for this type of contract to ensure their future viability. If they were before us today, they would say that they want more Government services and footfall, particularly any work that requires ID verification. They already do that work for the Department of Social Protection. In hundreds of post offices they already have ID verification equipment and systems and, at the drop of a hat, they could have such equipment in every single office if that was what was required.

The truth, however, is that the post office network is hanging in the balance, and successive Governments have continued to turn their backs on the network. This is despite the fact that the 2016 Kerr report on the future of the post office network, on page 41, highlighted specifically that the provision of driver licences should be considered as part of an increase in the range of Government services available through the post office network.

In March of last year, the Government set up an offline services group to identify suitable services based on the recommendations of the offline services report and to examine the feasibility of directing more Government business to post offices. We were told that this group, in conducting its work, was considering the increased use of the post office network for the delivery of Government services. On 7 July of last year, during a Dáil debate on the post office network, the Minister of State said: "The Government's objectives for An Post include harnessing the opportunities presented by e-commerce and the digital economy, capturing and retaining market share in parcels and delivering a sustainable nationwide post office network offering a range of e-commerce, financial and Government services." I stress the phrase "and Government services". What has come of all that? What Government services have been or will be transferred to An Post since these groups and objectives were identified? What has come of the Government's explorations and examinations? Following report after report, nothing has come of this from the perspective of An Post. There are comforting words from the Government but, when it comes to it, when there are clear options on the table, An Post loses out. There might be some small defence if the Government said it was delivering a better service at a cheaper rate, but the exact opposite is true in the case of the driver licence service.

To add further insult to further injury, as for the online service, the Government looks set to throw good money after bad in defence of the PSC. That is what I expect the Government will do, as other Deputies have said, if it does not remove the PSC requirement. To be clear, the objective is to drive people online, and it is 100% mandatory to have a PSC to avail of services online. That is belligerence. The Government needs to act on this and remove that element.

Deputy Louise O'Reilly

I thank the Acting Chairman for the opportunity to speak to this Private Members' motion and thank the Deputies involved for tabling it. The outsourcing of the issuing and renewal of driver licences has been a farce from the start. Hardly a week goes by without some form of complaint made to my office about the standard of the quality of the service provided by the NDLS. This has nothing to do with the staff members; it is a matter of understaffing, under-resourcing and pointless procedures. The Minister of State will be aware of the issues; they have already been outlined to her. All are by-products of outsourcing, and anyone watching this debate will be able to see that. Among the complaints are staff shortages, a lack of timely service, limited opening hours for centres and the need for a public services card to avail of the online service. Is it mandatory but not compulsory? Is it compulsory but not mandatory? Who knows? Other complaints are the non-acceptance of cash payments when, as has been outlined, there are still people who use cash only as well as the recent cessation of the walk-in service. The vast majority of these issues have at their root the outsourcing of the service, which has caused it to be run on a shoestring budget to ensure that the operating company can make as much profit as possible. As is ever the case, it is the public, in particular older people, who will suffer because of this. Receiving or renewing one's driver licence should be straightforward, simple and stress-free. Instead it has become complicated and very stressful for people.

It has also become very complicated for professional drivers such as HGV drivers who wish to exchange a foreign driving licence for an Irish one. I have been told that some drivers who are qualified to work here are left in limbo for up the three months due to delays in issuing PPS numbers in the first instance and then delays in NDLS appointments, which compounds the issue. While the operating company of the NDLS may point to issues due to Covid, the reality is that the delays and difficulties existed pre Covid, as the Minister of State will be aware.

There must be a way to resolve these difficulties. The NDLS operates 34 offices, some of them only part-time. By comparison, An Post has a network of over 950 post offices with decades of experience in dealing with customers and delivering Government services. There is no NDLS office in my constituency, but we do have plenty of post offices.

Deputy Sorca Clarke

I welcome the opportunity to speak about this issue, which again highlights the Government's persistence in taking plans designed for cities and almost inflicting them on parts of rural Ireland. Not a week goes by without at least one person in my offices, be that in Mullingar, Longford or Athlone, at their wits' end over broadband not being able to access a decent connection. Yet again we see this drive, if the Acting Chairman will pardon the pun, towards being able to access services only online and this smoke-and-mirrors attitude to there being an in-person option when we know that, in reality, that does not exist. This disenfranchises and angers people because they feel victimised because of where they live. More concerningly, a point that has not been made is that it also makes this very difficult for people who struggle with literacy. This is a reflection of the for-profit model of outsourcing. The Government may wish to do away with walk-in services, and that may be applicable and acceptable in some areas, but the public purse pays for this service and, as such, it should suit the entirety of the public.

To echo what my colleague, Deputy O'Rourke, has said, this is a real missed opportunity for the An Post network. We see this consistently throughout the NDLS. People are notifiable only by text or email. At present there are no weekend appointments in Mullingar or Athlone until 2 April. Longford fares a little better but not by much. Responses I received to parliamentary questions last week state that the driver test list in Longford now numbers 944. In Westmeath, the corresponding figure is 2,689. The Government appears to have conveniently forgotten the debacle surrounding the public services card. The public have not, nor have they forgotten the statement by the Minister for Finance, Deputy Donohoe, at the time that it was not a mess despite costing €60 million. Obviously, the definition of a mess does not include costing a small fortune. At local level, the quality of political gymnastics by Government representatives is now truly an act to behold as they try to distance themselves from this Government decision. If this were an Olympic event, the Minister of State's Government colleagues would take gold.

Deputy Mairéad Farrell

Mar is eol don Aire Stáit, bhí ionad páirtaimseartha sa Chlochán inár nDáilcheantar féin. Ó dúnadh é sin, bhí go leor de mhuintir Chonamara i dteagmháil liom mar gheall nach raibh siad in ann fáil ar sheirbhísí ceadúnais chomh héasca agus a bhíodh. Bíonn siad ag rá go bhfuil orthu dul isteach sa chathair, rud a thógann uair go leith. Dúirt bean amháin liom i ríomhphost go bhfuil timpeall 50 ríomhphost seolta aici chuig an NDLS le bliain anuas ag iarraidh an dáta ar a mbeidh an t-ionad NDLS a bhí i dTeach an Stáisiún ag athoscailt. Tuigeann sí go bhfuil ionad i nGaillimh ach tá sé uair go leith ó bhaile agus ceapann sí go bhfuil sé de cheart ag muintir Chonamara an tseirbhís a bhí á cur ar fáil dóibh sa Chlochán a fháil ar ais.

In our constituency, the Clifden NDLS part-time centre has remained closed since the start of the pandemic. This makes it very difficult for people in Connemara to renew their driving licences. Many of our constituents have been badly affected by this. I raised the matter in June 2021 and was told by the RSA that everyone can now renew their driving licence using the online system. That is not always the case, however. In order to avail of the online system, a PSC is required. Not everyone has that, nor is it a requirement to have one. Moreover, a PSC cannot be requested by any public or private body or person not included as a specified body in Schedule 5 of the Social Welfare Consolidation Act. It is ridiculous that those in Connemara who are looking to get to an NDLS centre have to travel over an hour to Ballybrit to renew their driving licence. It is a major inconvenience. Although it was a part-time operation, the centre in Clifden was of massive benefit. It made it easier. We all know these administrative things can take a lot of time out of the day anyway. For those who are living in more rural, isolated areas it is essential to have a centre like the one in Clifden to make it easier for them to renew their licence rather than having to travel into the city.

Deputy Pat Buckley

I thank the Independent Group for bringing the motion forward today. It is nice to have a commonsense approach. It is the Irish way here to try to fix something that is not broken. It beggars belief that we could have a private company doing this because 99% of the time privatisation equals profit; it is not about providing proper service. As previous speakers have mentioned, there are 950 post offices in the country. It beggars belief that we are in here talking about this and trying to reverse something that could possibly have grown better.

The PSC was also mentioned. In the last Dáil term I had a good few arguments with the then Minister, Senator Regina Doherty on this. I could see it was going to cause problems. I cannot figure out why they cannot simplify it. We all have a PPS number that is registered to the database. That should be good enough. We are having similar issues with medical cards at the moment but that is a different situation.

I welcome the motion's common-sense approach to going back to the way we used to do it, which worked. People forget that those with disabilities struggle even more to access these services. One-to-one interaction makes a difference as does walking in to a service where we can actually deal with a real human being. Other speakers have also said that this is public money. It beggars belief how we can privatise a system. It seems to be just systemic for successive Governments to take everything away, privatise it and come back in a few years scratching their heads and wondering why it has gone so wrong. We should be investing in our own people and our own services.

It is madness that the centres cannot take cash. They are making it so difficult for people. Others mentioned online services. How many debates have we had here about broadband? Some people are not computer literate. Someone might have the old provisional licence, might have been working on a farm the past 40 years and might never have turned on a computer. How are they going to manage? It is ludicrous that we have private companies running this when we have a national post office network that is crying out for public services and that should be supported.

Deputy Chris Andrews

I thank Deputy McNamara and the Independent Group for proposing this motion on the NDLS. It is a really important service. Various issues with the issuing and renewing of permits and driving licences have had a severe impact on the lives of workers and their families over the past two years. We heard from numerous front-line workers about the difficulties they faced in renewing their driving licences and the impact on their work. It is disappointing that the NDLS no longer offers a walk-in service and that it refuses to accept cash payments. On the PSC, it sounds in theory like people will not need one but in practice they do need it. This is in spite of a previous investigation by the Data Protection Commission which found there is no lawful basis for this requirement. The whole process is a prime example of the downgrading of public services due to Government services being privatised.

An Post operates a network of some 950 post offices around the State. It is a devastating indictment of the Government's view of An Post that it will not engage with or involve the postal service in this process. The awarding of this contract to the Swiss company, SGS, reflects a missed opportunity to use the post office network and bring the NDLS into every community, ensuring ease of access to all.

Removing the walk-in and cash services shows the level of disconnect between the Government and ordinary people. There are many people who need that bit of extra assistance, including the elderly and those from minority backgrounds. Many of those people might not have a PSC. They may have literacy barriers. Sinn Féin has previously called for the PSC to be scrapped following the report from the UN on the disproportionate impact it has on marginalised communities. I welcome and support the motion because it highlights the serious issues currently with the NDLS.

Deputy Paul Donnelly

I thank the Deputies for bringing the motion forward. It is a very appropriate time for it given the end of Covid restrictions which can no longer be used as an excuse for providing such a poor service to so many people. Deputy O'Rourke's example has really shown how poor that service is. Constituents are desperately getting in touch with all our offices to try to get a licence sorted out for work or some other important reason.

We oppose the privatisation of public services. This is clearly a service that has profit as its only goal. Fine Gael, along with some in various Departments, is slowly but surely dismantling our public services. "Commissioning" is a buzzword for the delivery of many health and social services. What commissioning really means is the provision of private services. Many are not-for-profit now but we know from the experience of local employment services that this can change very quickly. If we are serious about the post office network, the provision of driving licences would help secure many post offices, particularly those in rural areas. In a world where we are being told we have never been as connected, people engaging with people seems to be anathema to the bean counters and the profiteers.

Many are deeply concerned at the creeping of the PSC into areas that make no sense whatsoever. The Government should be honest with people and put it out there in its manifesto for a national identity card. It should put the matter to the people and ask if they want to be forced to provide their private details to a private company. I was doing a bit of research on this. The Minister of State, Deputy Fleming, previously stated that he believed the card was an attempt to introduce a national ID card and that the Department had offered pathetic excuses for the measure while trying to expand it dishonestly through the back door. I hope he and his colleagues still stand by those words.

Deputy Duncan Smith

I thank the Independent Group for this motion. It is the second Wednesday morning Private Member's motion in a row which makes eminent sense and is speaking to a real need felt by thousands of people who have been going through heartache in renewing their driving licences.

The Minister of State, Deputy Hildegarde Naughton, has left and the Minister of State, Deputy Browne, has joined us. The Government has said it is not opposing this motion. What does that actually mean? Will we see any changes called for in this motion, which has the support of this side of the House, implemented, specifically regarding the offices accepting cash, which they should, and the use of the PSC, which is not and should not be required in this situation?

Since the pandemic, the new operation of the NDLS has resulted in a reduction in the level and quality of service received by users and the NDLS no longer provides users with a walk-in service. We all accepted that certain services were going to be impacted by Covid and that it would take a while for certain services to return to a level of normality or catch up on backlogs. Passports being one with which we have all dealt in the past number of months. There has been a point of real crisis here but the passport service does seem to be getting back to some level of normality and turning things around in a relatively quick manner - touch wood.

What is different about the NDLS is that it is not even trying to get back to normal. It has used Covid as an opportunity to copper-fasten an entire change in how it operates. This is not trying to get back to a face-to-face, proper public service. As Deputy McNamara said, this is no longer a public service. It is operated by a private operator, SGS, but it is not operated according to public need. It is operated for profit and the public is having to jump through needless hoops, which is having a real impact not just on waiting lists and call-backs. It is having an impact on people starting new jobs because they need driving licences and they cannot get them because they need a PSC, which is ridiculous, and cannot get appointments to obtain the latter. We all deal with constituents. I spent just under four weeks trying to get somebody over the line with the NDLS because of the PSC obstacle.

It is fundamental. People say "Don't bring ideology into this, don't bring ideology into that" but this is the outworking of a right-wing ideology played out in terms of a public service. We talk about the time when people could go into their local authority and renew their licences. Maybe that was not the best model but it was a model whereby people were face to face and knew where they could go, and it actually worked. We have replaced something that worked with something that is not working. It may be working for SGS and the Department as it does not have to actually manage the delivery of this and does not have any real responsibility for it - like everything. I cannot wait for the reply we will get to a parliamentary question soon telling us that this is a service matter for SGS and that if it does not reply within ten days, to get back to the Minister because that is what we get with HSE inquiries and an awful lot of financial inquiries when they relate to banks - banks we own. Regarding moving everything to phone services, look at what happened with the banks. Look at what the Central Bank found regarding banking services. It crucified all our banks for offering deplorable customer service over the phone.

This is a quality-of-life issue for many people. Regarding the days of having to do your household messages, going down to the village and nipping into the post office, the bank, shops or the building society, that actually worked for people all over the country. Our 950-branch post office network is crying out for business, is trusted by the people and is skilled in the provision of public services and here we have instead part-time offices scattered all over the country in some population centres instead of in every community and not accepting cash and walk-in appointments. It is turning into a pathetic service for something that is vital. A driving licence is vital for work, caring, families and commuting. It is a statutory document to which we are entitled It is a rite of passage for many - driving lessons, getting a provisional licence and moving on to do a full test. It is a rite of passage, a right and a need and the State is failing. This is a succinct and to-the-point motion that speaks to a real deficiency in what the Government is doing in this area. If the Government is not going to implement the asks in the motion, it may as well vote against it because otherwise when it does this as a Government, it is just being dishonest. I commend the Independent group on this motion and look forward to the rest of the debate.

Deputy Catherine Murphy

I thank the Independent group for putting forward this motion. We have been debating the use of the PSC in this House for years. We have been arguing about when it can be used, how it can be used and what kind of data it can contain. I again make the same point I have made repeatedly over the past number of years. If the Government wants a national identification card, it should admit it, produce legislation, get legal advice, come into this Chamber and let us debate it, but it should not do it by stealth, which is exactly what is happening at the moment. If anyone wants to access public services online, in so many cases, the PSC appears to be required. Of course, this is not legal in most cases.

Last December, the Data Protection Commissioner agreed that the PSC could be used as the sole means of authenticating identity for the purpose of accessing online services provided that an alternative service channel is available. Of course that spirit of that ruling obviously means that service users should be given the freedom of choice and that in-person services should be freely available without the need for a PSC. The Department of Transport's decision to close down walk-in services for the NDLS is completely against the spirit of that ruling. Let us be honest: it was done in order to drive people to the online service by reducing the quality of in-person services and consequently nudging people into getting a PSC. Then it is lauded and the Government says "Oh so many people have got it; it is really successful." This is because people are given no choice. The Government cannot keep throwing up obstacles and reducing the standard of in-person services while claiming that there are genuine alternatives to those provided online.

When I checked the NDLS website yesterday, the next available appointment in Kildare outside of the nine-to five work day was 26 March. A total of 222,000 people live in Kildare. Its population surpassed that of Limerick city and county in the census before last so it is a very large county. The NDLS centre is in an industrial estate in Naas and there is no public transport to it so it is not as if it is particularly convenient. However, there is essentially a purpose in driving people to get access services online because it is made less accessible. Consider first time drivers, who have to get a fully licensed driver to drive them to these centres because no public transport is available.

The reality is that the future generations of drivers and public service users will be pushed towards the PSC with little alternative. Not everyone has access to a computer or a bank account. Currently, all driving licence services, either in-person or online, do not accept cash. Bank accounts obviously are not available to everyone in society. I refer primarily to those who do not have a fixed address. Many people for reasons of their own do not have bank accounts.

We have a habit sometimes of thinking that we are constantly playing catch-up with other countries when it comes to technology and rushing forward but in reality, anyone who visits other countries can see that we are often quite advanced when it comes to introducing technological advancements. This is positive but it cannot be abused.

The reality of a society that has rapidly become more online is that people are being left behind. They are the people who always get the short end of the stick, such as migrants, for example, and, in particular, older people, who are provided with driving licences of a shorter duration and need to renew them more often. Welcome legislation was brought in by the Department of Transport recently to allow asylum seekers access to driving licences. That move will provide an incredible amount of freedom and independence to people who we in this country have treated very poorly through the years. The measure introduced was that temporary residency permits will be accepted as proof of normal residency. Can asylum seekers access the online services or are they required to obtain in-person appointments?

There was never any legal underpinning for the public services card, PSC. It has been an absolute disaster in that respect from the onset. There are serious concerns regarding how it has been imposed on citizens and the range of data embedded in the card. The two successive Governments responsible simply have not been up front about any of it. The previous Minister for Employment Affairs and Social Protection, Senator Regina Doherty, insisted on multiple occasions that the Department did not hold biometric data, but it does. The Department has since admitted it was using biometric data on the PSC to identify cases of welfare fraud. There is a national database of facial recognition data and that database has no safeguards written in law. There is no legislation and no clear legal basis for it. Decisions of the Data Protection Commission on the PSC are still pending. There is an investigation into the use of biometric data, as well as a mass complaint mandated to Digital Rights Ireland by hundreds of citizens about the illegality of the use of the card by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform. It is genuinely incredible that the Government is still pushing forward with the PSC in the exact same manner it has always done despite seemingly falling at every single legal hurdle it encounters.

When it comes to these databases, it is important for everyone to realise it is not just the Irish State that has access to them. Under the Prüm II law, the Council of the European Union is discussing plans to add driving licence data to an EU network of police facial recognition systems. Will the Government be supporting this measure? If it intends to do so, it is saying that a person who owns a car, needs to drive or has a driving licence must submit a photo and information that could be used for that kind of purpose. People need to know that.

We know very little about these systems. We do not know what impact they will have on privacy and civil liberties. We do not know how they address accuracy problems or how they will impact on ethnic minorities, for example. This is the essence of turning citizens into customers. We have been talking about this since 2011. It is just another erosion of a public service and we really need to have an alternative. We cannot allow the PSC to be used as an identity card by stealth.

Deputy Seán Canney

I compliment the Independent Group on bringing forward the motion. The new contract is in place but the problem is that walk-in services are now not available. I live in Galway East, a rural constituency. Some of the people I represent do not have a smartphone or a credit card and may not have broadband, which is very relevant. They may not have any of the tools they need to do their business online. This is the kernel of the matter. As we fast-track ourselves into the digital age, we are doing something very wrong: we are beginning to leave people behind. It is a significant trauma in the lives of people who may not be computer literate to have to try to figure out a way through the morass of systems they have to use. We have to recalibrate how we are actually preparing society for the digital age. The digital age is taking over but it will not take over everybody if it is going to leave people behind. We need to ensure services are available to people on a walk-in basis and that public services are available to people who wish to pay cash. All of that needs to be recalibrated. There is no point saying this is a workable and more efficient system and whatever else because that is not what people are finding.

I have come across an issue that I am sure other rural Deputies have heard about. To go to a GAA match, one now has to download one's ticket onto a smartphone. There is no cash being taken at the gate and there is no way of scanning the ticket one has; one has to have it on one's phone. There are many followers of Gaelic games. It is time for the GAA to consider this and make sure these people are also facilitated.

It is one thing for me to criticise what has been done, but the question is how we can rectify this and put systems in place that actually deal with people and provide them with a public service. It has been stated previously that there are 940 post offices in the countrywide network. The Government has not yet engaged to fully provide a system for the delivery of offline services. An Post has the mechanism, wherewithal and network to do that but it is not being done for reasons I keep hearing about which relate to procurement and making sure everything is right. It is time to recalibrate and decide to get things right for people rather than for systems, rules and regulations that are brought in but are unworkable. I go back to the basic point that we need to ensure we are putting people first, not systems.

I acknowledge that any time I contacted the RSA in the past two years on any issue relating to driving licences, it was able to help me in a prompt fashion. I want to put that on record.

Acting Chairman (Deputy Denise Mitchell)

We have spare time so, with the agreement of Deputies, I will add two minutes to the speaking time.

Deputy Verona Murphy

I thank the Acting Chairman, and I thank the Independent Group for tabling the motion. It allows us to ask the Minister to account for what I believe is an underhand and discriminatory reduction in the services of the NDLS. Decisions made in the context of Covid-19 were supposed to be temporary measures, supposedly made in the public interest to protect customers and staff in a variety of State bodies. It is an abuse of the Covid-19 measures for the NDLS to fail to return to the level of service that existed prior to Covid. It is also an underhand way of discriminating against those who find online literacy difficult. Many of us can put our hand in our pocket, whip out a phone and do almost anything we want, but there are a significant number of people who are unable to perform these tasks.

To add insult to injury, in adopting its online-only policy for services, the NDLS is insisting that people use a public services card, as has been mentioned many times today. There are three main problems with this. First, a vast number of people do not have sufficient Internet service to operate any website. Second, a large number of people do not have a public services card. As for the third problem, I will quote directly from an agreement between the Department and the Data Protection Commission in respect of the use of public services cards other than by the Department of Social Protection.

The Agreement acknowledges that other public bodies listed in social welfare legislation (“specified bodies”) may use the PSC as a means of verifying the identity of the people they deal with, provided that they also accept other methods of authenticating identity.

The Agreement also acknowledges and accepts that the Department and other specified bodies can continue to use MyGovID as the sole means of authenticating identity for the purpose of accessing online services, provided that an alternative service channel is made available.

It is very clear that requiring the use of the public services card or a MyGovID account clearly goes against this agreement and goes against the legal judgment made in 2019. Despite this, if I go to the NDLS website to apply online for a licence, the only option outlined involves the use of a public services card. To quote directly from the NDLS website:

Applying online is a simple, straightforward process, no need to book an appointment or attend an NDLS centre. Save time and do it the smart way. Apply Online today.

All you need is your Public Services Card and your verified MyGovID for safe, secure access to your online application.

Already have a verified MyGovID account? Apply Now

If you haven’t got a verified MyGovID account but have a Public Services Card? You’re almost there. You can set up your verified MyGovID account using your public services card at www.mygovid.ie.

Don’t yet have a Public Services Card? You can book a Public Service Card (PSC) appointment by phoning your local Intreo office. Unfortunately, due to COVID-19 pandemic online PSC appointments are not available at www.mywelfare.ie.

There is no alternative option mentioned and it seems that Covid is still being used as an excuse for online PSC appointments not being available, which makes very little sense with regard to the conversation we are having today. The whole situation is a mess. It has been badly handled and badly communicated and bad decisions have been made.

Many citizens do not have debit cards. This is just another impediment the Department is responsible for. With this in mind, I hope the Minister of State will outline for us today the answer to the following questions. Who was responsible for making this decision to curtail in-person services? Who was consulted before the decision was made? What assessments were made about the impact of this decision on those with poor digital literacy or poor access to the necessary equipment or Internet services? Why have the NDLS and the Department of Transport broken the agreement with the Data Protection Commission by requiring the use of a public services card?

I concur with all of the speakers and I want to point out that when it comes to the NDLS engaging with the RSA on identifying compatible licences of foreign nationals it is a very slow process. Many people who come here with work permits spend as long as six to nine months trying to get their licence verified so they may undertake the work they are here on a permit to take up. This is something that has to be addressed. It may not be the Department of the Minister of State but it certainly involves both agencies mentioned, namely, the NDLS and the RSA. It is an impediment to how we get on and progress as a country.

Deputy Carol Nolan

I commend Deputy McNamara and his colleagues on bringing forward this excellent and timely motion. The Government and agencies with which people must interact are going out of their way to make life more difficult than it needs to be. There seems to be no sense of pragmatism or common sense at times. Where is the common sense in the NDLS? Ever since it was rolled out in 2013 it has been beset with difficulties. The new requirement for a public services card before being able to access the NDLS is ridiculous. It needs to be looked at urgently.

As I understand it, the Data Protection Commission ruled after a two year investigation that the card is illegal in terms of being required to access public services other than those of the Department of Social Protection. The Data Protection Commission has also ruled the State must destroy the 3.2 million personal records held on cardholders. Yet here we are with the NDLS overruling the Data Protection Commission. What is really going on? In this respect the NDLS has acted without any apparent regard for the difficulties its decisions will create for thousands of motorists and those wishing to access an updated licence.

I wholeheartedly agree with the call in the motion to set up an open competitive tendering process in accordance with national and European Union procurement rules to provide a walk-in service at multiple centres throughout the State. I also agree the NDLS must allow cash payments to be accepted. It is absurd this is not the case already.

The motion refers to insufficient staffing that has led to further problems. This needs to be looked at. It is not good enough that people are trying to get through by telephone. It is just not happening and there are serious delays. This is an issue many of my constituents have raised with me. I would appreciate if these concerns can be addressed.

Deputy Michael Collins

I thank Deputy McNamara and his colleagues for bringing forward the motion. The fact that local NDLS centres are not accessible to many people who need to get a licence if they do not have a public services card is nothing short of our joke. Many Deputies have said the same thing. If it was not broken, why fix it? The Government has a habit of doing such things. It tampers with something that is good and that delivers and ends up making a mess of it. It was the same with the reverse last night by the Fianna Fáil, Fine Gael and the Green Party Government on early intervention units. It had removed funding for the unit in Kilbrittain. It reversed the decision last night after I had raised it three times in the Dáil. This is embarrassing.

The same goes for people trying to obtain licences. Many Deputies have rightly asked why post offices cannot be used for people to get their driving licences. It is easy to know why. The Government's agenda is to get rid of post offices by starving them of work and giving them no chance to keep their doors open.

Vehicle licensing in this country needs a complete overhaul. Look at people who come back to this country and have to sit a theory test and a driving test. It is a farce beyond belief. One man told me he could drive through New York one week but cannot drive through Goleen when he comes to Ireland the following week.

The wait of months that many Irish drivers have had to endure over the past two years ahead of a driving test looks likely to continue for quite some time. During the height of the pandemic driving lessons and testing services were put hold. As a result, Ireland's driving licence backlog reached astronomical heights. Although everything has been done to clear waiting lists it will be quite some time before normal timing resumes. The RSA states that at this point, having hired testers and with restrictions easing, 60 centres throughout the country have reduced their waiting times down to the ten-week mark. However, other centres still have a backlog of between 12 and 18 weeks. This is not for the physical test alone.

Deputy Danny Healy-Rae

I thank the Independent Group for tabling this very worthy motion. It is a scandal to God that a walk-in service is no longer offered to renew licences in Tralee. People must book an appointment online. People who do not use the Internet have long waits to get through on the phone line to make an appointment. This is something I have to say. To get these people on the phone is absolutely impossible. To those who have phones but will not answer them and will not ring back I say throw them away. These people should be got rid of because they are useless. If I do not answer my phone today or if I do not ring someone back I can expect I will not be in my place after the next election. I will answer my phone and that is what people are supposed to do.

It takes forever to get a theory test or a driving test. The RSA will not answer. Old people cannot go over to the office. We are practically the smallest country in the world and we do not have a system whereby we can renew driving licences. People need to have a public services card. This was found to be illegal. Why is the Government allowing this to continue? Is it in power?

Applying online is simply not an option for many people, particularly elderly people or those not used to the Internet. There are no drivers for buses, lorries or any other work vehicles. People cannot get licences to go on the road legally. I ask the Government to do something before the country grinds completely to a halt. It is not fair on workers. It is not fair on ordinary people, old people or young people who cannot get a driving licence when they need it.

Deputy Michael Healy-Rae

I thank Deputy McNamara for tabling this very important motion. It is ridiculous to think that at the start of the pandemic there was a six-week waiting list. During the worst of the pandemic it increased to six months. Now we are back to approximately ten weeks. This is a ridiculous length of time for people who desperately need to get their licence and to get on the road. At present 104,398 learners are waiting to take the driving test.

The system we had in the county I represent, County Kerry, was absolutely perfect. You could visit the office, take a ticket and queue to be dealt with by a person. It was a perfect system that we were very happy with. You had to wait but you were quite willing and glad to do so because you knew you would be served. The current system is unworkable, unfriendly and unfair to the person who is important, namely, the customer or person waiting for the service.

Unfortunately, in all departments there seems to be a massive desire to disconnect from the people. They do not want to engage on a telephone or the Internet; they do not want to engage at all. They definitely do not want to meet a person face to face. I have news: offices and businesses are open, and hiding behind the pandemic will not be accepted by the public anymore. When people want a service, whether it concerns a driving licence, medical card or the processing of an application for a grant, they want to deal with staff on a personal basis.

I thank the staff who work in the service in Kerry. I am aware that they are working under pressure. It is the system that is wrong, not the individuals. I am not going to be critical of the individuals working in County Kerry because, regardless of whether they are in the housing or planning department of Kerry County Council or any other section, they are good. So, too, are the others but we need a better service for our customers.

Deputy Mattie McGrath

I too thank Deputy McNamara for introducing this timely and important motion. We are just dehumanising people. That is what is going on under the Government. I have been up here for 14 years now and note that is the case in respect of everything we have done.

When the NDLS was first established, I could not believe that three private companies would have a part to play before a driver got a licence. One of them could not get the materials to make the licences and there were delays as a consequence. It is a shambles.

I thank the county council staff who help people above and beyond the call of duty. At the time when you could take a ticket and queue, at least you saw movement and people’s smiling faces. You did not have to ring up and get no answers. The people in the offices are under pressure.

We decommissioned the IRA. We have the RSA and the NRA, which is now TII. These are unelected, unaccountable quangos that the Government has set up. They are like mushrooms, growing and expanding, and they have no respect for the public interest or this House. All those concerned want is a big office with a brass plate on the door. There are chief executives, chairmen and everything else, including a board, of course. It is all a matter of jobs for the boys and saying to hell with daoine na tíre, especially the people of rural Ireland. What if a person does not have broadband? Many of us do not. What if a person cannot use broadband? People are dehumanised in these circumstances. It is making life hell for them.

I do not know how we get multinationals into this country because their staff, when they come here from all over the world, cannot drive here. They have to do a theory test. What an ungracious insult to people who can drive in Manhattan and all over the world. I thank Geraldine in my office, who deals with this. I thank the voluntary organisation in Clonmel that helps young people with learning difficulties to do the theory test. All these tests did not exist when we were applying for licences; they are in place now. Mol an óige agus tiocfaidh sí. We are not praising the young; we are denying them. We are killing our elderly population and allowing them to perish.

Bus drivers cannot be got. People over 70 are not allowed to drive school buses. They can drive private buses to matches but cannot drive to school. We are crying out for drivers. Now we are told the unfortunate drivers coming here from the war will not be allowed to drive in Ireland. They can drive in every other European country. What is wrong with this little quango Republic? It is shameful.

Minister of State at the Department of Justice (Deputy James Browne)

I acknowledge the difficulties people are experiencing in trying to get through by telephone to the NDLS booking system. It is not acceptable that service provision is not up to standard. I have been assured by the RSA that the additional training by the service provider, to be completed this week, will improve the service provided to the public.

During the tender process, it was not intended that the new contract would have a mandatory non-appointment option. Experience has shown that managing a non-appointment service was difficult. Each office was staffed to take a certain amount of activity but, where a non-appointment service was permitted, there were peaks and troughs during the day, with early mornings and lunchtimes putting the offices under pressure. This generated complaints from members of the public due to the waiting times and delays.

The RSA was aware that over the lifetime of the contract, there would be a service with increasingly fewer customers because of the increased uptake of the online option. To make an attractive offering to the market, it was important to pitch the service in a way that would attract several bidders and ensure value for money. The ability of companies to manage and adapt staffing requirements was an important element of this. Accessing the online service to apply for a driving licence or learner permit requires a verified mygov.ie account to validate identity. This is consistent with Government policy. A public services card is not mandatory. It is not needed to book an appointment at an NDLS office. Other documents, such as a passport, are accepted to verify identity in person.

Under the terms of the agreement between the Department of Social Protection and the Data Protection Commission, it was acknowledged and accepted that the Department and other specified bodies, such as the RSA, could continue to use mygov.ie as a sole means of authenticating identity for the purpose of accessing online services provided that an alternative service channel was available.

Deputy Marian Harkin

I was happy to sign and support this motion, which promotes workable solutions to the current unacceptable circumstances in regard to the issuing driving licences. For many people, including those with poor or no broadband, those who want to use cash and those who expect the State to provide a quality public service for the issuing of driving licenses, the service is not fit for purpose.

Covid-19 saw the temporary cessation of walk-in services for driving licence applications. Now most public offices have reopened and services are returning to normal as much as possible. We are all learning to live with Covid. Why is the NDLS not learning to live with it? We cannot stand over the diminution of the service under the pretext that Covid is somehow responsible.

What we are considering here is the wider issue of the privatisation of services, on foot of which the quality of service is not factored in and the lowest bidder that can provide the most basic service is the one that is chosen. Time and again, I have heard about the EU public procurement directive. Two things need to be said about it. First, it gives member states the opportunity to include social clauses, but that is up to their governments. Second, and most crucially, who in the Department or RSA is responsible for writing the tender specifications? That is what matters. That is why I expect that An Post was not awarded the tender. I do not know the details but believe that if a requirement for a network of 75 officers were stipulated, perhaps with two per county and a few extra in the larger counties, An Post would then be in a much better position to tender for the contract. That would have helped to sustain the network.

I understand a procurement process must be open and fair, but it must be drafted to ensure a quality service. When a local post office is closing, every Government Deputy and councillor goes to the public meeting calling for a reversal of the decision; yet, because the Government outsources the process to the RSA, which outsources it to a private company, the Government representatives and the rest of us are wasting our time. The Government and RSA hide behind public procurement regulations. If there were a proactive Government policy to ensure the sustainability of the An Post network, the tender documents would be written in a way that would ensure a quality walk-in service for Irish drivers. Then, at least, An Post would be on a level playing field when applying.

The Minister is not present, which I am sorry about, but I listened carefully to her when she spoke about the public services card. She said a public services card is not necessary to make an appointment, and she is right. Before I came into the Chamber, I looked at the NDLS website and checked out exactly what it states.

It states:

Applying online is a simple, straightforward process...

All you need is your Public Services Card and your verified MyGovID for safe, secure access to your online application.

Already have a verified MyGovID account? Apply Now.

If you haven’t got a verified MyGovID account but have a Public Services Card? You’re almost there. You can set up your verified MyGovID account using your public services card at www.mygovid.ie.

Then comes the final kicker:

Don’t yet have a Public Services Card? You can book a Public Service Card (PSC) appointment by phoning your local Intreo office.

I wish the Minister were here because this is a three-card trick. Who decided that a public services card was needed to apply online? Was it the Swiss company providing the service? Was it written into the tender documents? Was it the RSA? Was it the Government? This is a simple question and I would appreciate an answer.

Deputy Michael McNamara

I thank everyone who spoke on behalf of the motion. I thank all my colleagues in the Independent Group and all the Opposition Members, including Deputy O'Rourke, for their support. I also thank the Government for accepting the motion. I note that no Government backbenchers are speaking in the debate, which I take to indicate that they also accept the necessity for the motion. I want to be clear on what the motion calls for. It calls for the Government to instruct the RSA to set up an open tendering process for a walk-in service. The move to tender only for an appointment service was explained by the Minister of State in her statement. She said:

The procurement process for the new contract began in January 2020. It was not intended that the new contract, which took effect in June 2021, would offer a non-appointment option. This decision was made based on experience with the previous contract that managing a non-appointment element was difficult.

Therefore, a procurement process had begun and the goalposts shifted as a result of the consultation between the RSA, which was going to provide the contract, and a company which had previously provided it. That sounds very strange to me, especially given that one of the companies seeking to obtain the tender, An Post, was in a position to provide a walk-in service throughout the State. While it is no longer in every village, still every town in the country has a post office. That is really strange chicanery to occur in the middle of a pandemic. I am not saying that the tender is invalid or anything but it is a really unusual admission, almost as unusual as the admission the Minister made last Thursday week to me that this contract had been provided on a walk-in basis only. That came as news to me and to most people in this House.

The motion also states that we should ensure that all NDLS offices accept cash payments. That was repeatedly emphasised by my colleague Deputy Fitzmaurice. During this, we were actually discussing whether it is legal to refuse cash. I am afraid I do not know, but the Central Bank's website states it is legal tender. Businesses such as shops and restaurants cannot refuse cash unless both they and the customer have already agreed on another way of paying. People who walk into an NDLS office have not agreed on another way to pay. A constituent of mine walked in to an NDLS office, did everything right, went to pay and was told it would not take cash. He rang his wife who gave him details of a bank card. He was told that because she was not there, it could not accept that either. He then had to go and make another appointment through this farcical system of making appointments in order to get a driving licence.

It has been made inordinately difficult to get a driving licence. Does the Government envisage the day when someone will be required to make an appointment online or by telephone in order to buy a stamp? I fear that this is the thin end of the wedge. Not much was wrong with the system whereby people went to the local authority office to renew a driving licence in the same way that they renewed their motor tax. Of course, people can also renew motor tax online and many people do, which is a good thing.

However, someone renewing motor tax does not require a public services card. I accept, as the Minister of State said, that the RSA is specified body for the use of a public services card under the Social Welfare Consolidation Act. However, the RSA contracts out all its services. Is the company that it contracts out to, which is effectively the company with which people are interacting online when renewing a driver licence, a specified body? If it is not, the entirely unlawful use of State data is being facilitated by this regime. Deputy Harkin said that everything is now contracted out and an obvious question follows from that.

I welcome that the Government is accepting the motion, but I hope it will act on it. Deputy Verona Murphy among others raised the delay in getting a foreign driving licence recognised with people waiting eight to nine months. Of course, Ukraine is not a country whose driving licences we recognise. I have no problem with people from Ukraine or any other country having to do a theory test and a practical test if they come from a country whose driving licence we do not recognise; we need to be sure that people can drive if they say they can drive. However, not alone will they have to do that, but they will have to do all the driving lessons over 12 months and I certainly have a problem with that.

I have no doubt that Ukrainian refugees will arrive here and some of them will hold driving licences. I have no doubt that the State does not recognise those driving licences. I have no problem with any of that. However, it will take them years to get a driving licence here and that will affect their employment prospects. The same is true of people who come from any state of the United States of America, some provinces of Canada and many other states. Nobody could possibly have a problem with requiring people to show they can drive and understand the rules of the road. However, it is inexplicable that they are required to do all the driving lessons and tests that somebody who cannot drive must do. I raised that point with the Minister of State, Deputy Naughton, at the start of this debate. I recognise that it is not mentioned in the motion, but it needs to be addressed and I hope the Government will come back to us on that.

I greatly appreciate the support from all colleagues across the Opposition and the fact that the Government accepts the motion. However, I question what accepting it actually means. The motion requests that a new tender process be set up for a walk-in service, that cash be accepted in NDLS offices and that the requirement for online applicants to provide a public services card be discontinued in circumstances where that service is contracted out by the RSA. People are not providing their public services card to the RSA, but are providing it to a private company that may not be covered by the Social Welfare Consolidation Act. I would welcome clarification on that point.

Question put and agreed to.

Cuireadh an Dáil ar fionraí ar 11.49 a.m. agus cuireadh tús leis arís ar meán lae.

Sitting suspended at 11.49 a.m. and resumed at 12 noon.

Dáil Éireann debate - Wednesday, 2 Mar 2022

National Driver Licence Service: Motion [Private Members]

Dáil Éireann debate -
Wednesday, 2 Mar 2022